Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on today's episode, I have invited For the Gospel contributor and pastor of Revolve Bible Church in San Clemente, California, onto the show to walk us through everything you need to know about baptism. Ryan Day, thank you for joining me today on the For the Gospel podcast. Oh man, I'm grateful for your friendship. And you are a church planting veteran now, is what we would call it. Six years in at Revolve. I'm a church plant rookie as we launch uh here in February. And man, I am so pumped to be able to talk to guys like you and see that there are stories of survival. There's men who make it. Jesus builds his church. How is everything going? Give me like a brief snapshot of the season you're in in Southern California.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, everything's going great. Um, by God's grace, he continues to build his church at Revolve Bible Church. And uh we're looking to the future. We just celebrated our five-year anniversary, so we're thinking a lot about the next five years and how to be faithful, but we're so thankful for what the Lord has done and where he's taken us.
SPEAKER_01Incredible, man. And some of your backstory, you served as a Marine and the Lord saved your life, and you are now in ministry. What are some of the things that you most look forward to uh as a brother in the Lord and somebody who's ministering to lives every day?
SPEAKER_00Um, that's a great question. I think something I most look forward to. I love teaching the Bible. I love seeing people understand God's word. Um, I love seeing God save people. I think that's probably what I look forward to the most. That's that's the most thrilling thing to me to just watch God bring someone from darkness to light and from death to life. It's there's just nothing like watching God do that miracle.
SPEAKER_01Amen. May He do it more and more there at Revolve Bible Church, at Shepherd's House Bible Church, and everywhere around the country as people faithfully serve. Well, our audience has asked a lot of questions about baptism. And this episode is going to cover the most important truths about baptism that we would want people to know in a very clear way. And for those of you listening, this episode is designed and even timed to be something you can listen to on a general commute to work or a lunch break. Uh, we're not a long form podcast. We love to get to the point and bring the cookies down from the top shelf and then get you on your way, not just to learn sound doctrine, but to live it. And so, Ryan, let's jump right in. Number one, who should be baptized?
SPEAKER_00Uh, that's a softball question. Uh, believers. Uh people who uh have made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ should be baptized.
SPEAKER_01So you've excluded getting baptized at your youth group retreat because the pretty girl is getting baptized that you like. You've excluded people that are not sure if they are a Christian. You are excluding people who would say, you know, I just want my sins kind of washed away. I want this these baptism waters to sort of to make me a new person. You would basically say, if you are a true believer in Jesus, you don't have to have a theological degree or know everything, but you're pretty sure you're following Jesus all the way, that's the right candidate for baptism.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe to be a little bit more specific, we would say people that believe they've been regenerate. If you believe that God has brought you alive spiritually, you now understand your sinfulness, you understand uh what Christ has done for you, and you've placed your faith in him, um, then you need to be baptized because Jesus commands it.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Number two, what does baptism symbolize for a Christian?
SPEAKER_00That's a good question. I think when we survey the New Testament, um we can confidently conclude that baptism uh symbolizes four spiritual realities in the life of a believer. I think number one, baptism symbolizes uh that a believer's sin has been washed away. Again, baptism doesn't wash away your sins, but it symbolizes that. In Acts 22, 16, we read Um, now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name. So I think first baptism symbolizes the spiritual reality that our sins have been washed away. Second, baptism symbolizes the death of our old way of life. In Romans 6, 3 through 5, and then again in Colossians 2, 12, um, both those passages I think are a reference to dry baptism, meaning they're not necessarily talking about the practice of baptism, but I do think that there's a link to the symbolic reality of our baptism. In Romans 3, or I'm sorry, Romans 6, we read, or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death? Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life. So I think baptism does symbolize the reality that our old way of life is dead, and we're now walking in the new life that God has granted. Uh, third, I think baptism symbolizes our inclusion in the church. Um, 1 Corinthians 12, 12 through 13 says, for even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though we are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one spirit, um we were all baptized into one body. Again, I think speaking, the word baptized just means to immerse or immersion. And so I think that there's a reality where the Spirit of God baptizes us into Christ, into the church. He immerses us into those spiritual realities. But when we are baptized, I think it symbolizes our inclusion in the church. And then fourth, um, I think it symbolizes our deliverance from judgment. Peter um says in 1 Peter 3, 20 and 21, um, that uh in the days of Noah during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So I think that baptism symbolizes those four things that number one, a believer's sins have been washed away. Number two, it symbolizes the death of our old way of life, number three, our inclusion in the church, and number four, a deliverance from the judgment of God.
SPEAKER_01Excellent summary there of the symbolic nature of baptism, which leads to my next question. Is baptism required for salvation? For example, you know, if if not, what does that say about Roman Catholicism? Or perhaps someone who hears what you just said, that passage quoted from 1 Peter, and they say, Oh, see, look, you know, baptism saves you. And, you know, that's what needs to happen. And Peter in the book of Acts says, repent and be baptized, be saved by being baptized. You know, what do you say to that, Ryan?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there are those who teach that baptism is required for salvation, or rather, they would actually teach that baptism saves, like Roman Catholics teach baptismal regeneration. And they would say that the reason Roman Catholics teach that you baptize a baby, and when you baptize a baby, they call the baptism, they say that it's a sacrament that saves, and that baby then becomes saved and included among the people of God. But then as they grow, if they commit uh a mortal sin, they lose their salvation status, or if they commit a venial sin, they got to go to a priest, confess their sins, do penance. Um, but nowhere in the New Testament are we told that baptism regenerates. And I think we have to be careful though, because baptism, if what we mean by does baptism save, if what we mean is regeneration, no, baptism does not bring regeneration. Jesus tells us in John 3 that that we have eternal life, the Spirit of God gives us new life sovereignly by the Holy Spirit, not through baptism. But if what we mean is, is baptism required for salvation, I think we need to be careful and say yes, in the sense that those who are truly saved are baptized. When Peter says repent and be baptized, the conjunction and makes baptism inseparable from repentance. I think one of the things that that has happened in American evangelicalism is we've kind of downplayed the importance of baptism in the New Testament. When in the New Testament, baptism is inseparably linked from one's repentance or salvation. So to be clear, it does not save in the sense that if you're baptized, you get spiritual life. But in the New Testament, baptism is inseparably linked to God saving a person, meaning that person does need to respond to what God has done in baptism. I hope that's clear.
SPEAKER_01Oh, totally. That's so helpful. That would be like the phrase we would use. You're not saved by your good works, but you're saved for good works. It walking in obedience to Christ is simply evidence that you have been saved by Christ and that you are regenerate and in Christ. And so if someone is a believer, why wouldn't they be baptized? Or if they said, No, I don't need to, I don't want to, you would go, okay, well, has the heart been transformed? And or some people just have never been taught. You have these moments where people are following the Lord and they're they get saved, and a short time later they hear uh an episode like this, or they hear a sermon on baptism and they're pierced to the heart. Like, I gotta get baptized. This just happened at our church uh a few weeks ago. We haven't even launched yet, and we had uh a couple of people come up, and one of them was a young gal, and she saw somebody else get baptized, and this gal saved, she'd been living for the Lord, like faithfully, verified testimony, and it totally hit her because she had not been biblically baptized. I remember I had the same experience after getting baptized at 12 in a pool with a bunch of church folks there because you know, pretty girl in the youth group was getting baptized, and I wanted to get baptized too. And then I remember a friend of mine who worked at Grace to U at the time named Travis Allen, this pastor brother, says to me once during lunch, shortly after I was saved and had shared my testimony with him. He said, So if you've been biblically baptized since your true conversion, and you should have seen how pale my face went, I went, Oh no, and so I ran back to Orange County and I remember telling Pastor Tony, I gotta get baptized like now, and you know, full on. We like end up at a pool somewhere, and it's like that's one of the most special photos of my life was that was real baptism. And when you're a true believer, it's gonna pierce you that you've not walked in obedience stepping into the baptism waters. I think that's so helpful, Ryan.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think too, on on that note, that what we've kind of done because of the influence of guys like Charles Finney in the 1800s is we've turned uh the the response, the response, the biblical response to Christ is baptism. But we've kind of turned the response to Christ not into bat, or we've not been faithful in baptism, we've kind of turned it into let's walk an aisle and go forward in an altar call.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00When you can't find that in the Bible, the biblical response to the gospel is to be baptized. So it's great to hear someone at Shepherd's Bible House hearing the gospel and saying, I need to be baptized. That is the biblical response to the work of God in the heart of a sinner.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Okay, you've already answered this one, I think, but I want to just ask it. And if you want to just point-blank answer this one, that's totally fine. Why should a Christian be baptized?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I could say a little bit more here. Number one, Jesus commands it. Uh, if you're uh if you have become a Christian, you are under the Lordship of Christ, you joyfully obey our gracious Lord. And so believers desire to be pleasing to Jesus Christ. Um, number one, he commands it. Number two, it's a witness um to the world. I think first read or the after the reality of Jesus commanding it, when we're baptized as new believers, it sends a message to all of our unbelieving friends that we are marked off for Christ. And that can be a really powerful witness to unbelievers. I think third, it's very helpful for the church. It's really helpful for your brothers and sisters uh that you're doing life with in your local church when you're baptized, because it says to them, hey, I'm one of you. And it's a cue for them to start discipling you. It's a cue for them to uh practice all the one another commands in the New Testament. And then I would just say, fourthly, it encourages you. Um, I have, I cannot tell you how many times I've done a baptism and seen uh that person being faithful to Jesus' command, that baptism has strengthened their resolve to be even more obedient to Christ. So I think there's a great personal encouragement because when you have placed your faith in Christ and you're baptized, you can know that you are being faithful to what Jesus commands, and there's a great encouragement in that.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Real quick, bring some clarity. You already mentioned it a little bit. What are the different beliefs about how to be baptized? We've got people who may say, you know, I was sprinkled as a baby, and maybe they have no idea what baptism is all about, but they know they were sprinkled versus somebody who says, Hey, I'm a, you know, I'm like R. C. Sproul or I'm a paedo-baptist and I have a good position. I can argue for baby baptism. And somebody else says, Well, sprinkling versus immersion, you said that the word baptize means to dip or to immerse or immersion. Um, and so could you just shed some light on different beliefs? And then biblically, and we hold to this view at for the gospel as part of our doctrinal statement, even even contributors all agree on this. You know, immersion versus sprinkling, adults or babies, what is our biblical position?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a great question. Um it's hard to do it quickly because there have been uh volumes and volumes written on uh the debate between credo baptism or believers baptism and paedo baptism. Maybe for the listeners that don't know, paedobaptism, uh we called it that because uh pedo or it comes from a Greek word that means child, so it just means infant baptism. Um the the word baptizo, which is the root word that we get baptize, baptism, baptizing from, it literally just means to immerse. Um in Matthew 28, 18 through 20, Jesus says, and Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always to the end of the age. In those three verses, the imperative verb, which means the main command, is make disciples. All the other uh verbal phrases in those three verses are participles, and what that means is they are subsumed underneath that phrase make disciples. Now, uh Paedobaptists believe that those participles are means, meaning that how you make disciple is you baptize them. So the baptism comes before making a disciple. So that's how they interpret that passage, versus as someone who holds to believers' baptism or credo baptism, we would say, no, it's not a participle of means, it's a it's a participle of result, meaning that the way after you make disciples, then you baptize them and then you teach them. So baptism is not the means of making disciples. Now that is a grammatical debate, but when we get into the book of Acts, there's not a single instance in Acts or in the New Testament of a baby or an infant being baptized. And oftentimes Pedobaptists will say, um, well, that's because they were first generation believers, there they didn't have children yet, there were no children to be baptized because it was the first slew of people becoming Christians. Well, if if the participle of baptized is the means, then why would they not just immediately start baptizing babies? It's a good question. And and so for me, I think that it the the New Testament is clear that the word means immerse. When we baptize, when people baptize babies, they sprinkle them with water, they don't immerse them. Um, and nowhere in the New Testament is there an example of an infant being baptized. So we argue that baptism should come after someone is becomes a disciple, to say it another way, after someone becomes a Christian or after someone becomes a believer, then they're baptized as their first act of obedience, and then we teach them to obey everything Jesus has commanded.
SPEAKER_01If someone were to ask me why in the world I asked Ryan Day to be a contributor for the gospel, that is why. That's a great example, right there. That was clear, that was concise, and so people are gonna be able to retain it. And uh man, what a great explanation and clear and fair, honestly. People will argue from different sides, but I think you're also a great example to younger men who listen in who say, you know, I want to be a church leader one day, I want to be an elder, I want to be a pastor, I want to this, I want to that. And that's great. I we we don't ever want to hinder anyone from stepping into that. We want to be able to help them forward. And one of the ways is having the ability to rightly divide the word and lay it out clear and know your positions, even on something like baptism. And here's my next question then. Can good solid Christians disagree on this, i.e., John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul, old friends who debated about baptism and certainly were not going to roll over on their position. MacArthur never once said, ah, who cares about it at Grace Church? Because my buddy R.C. Sproul disagrees. Sproul didn't say, well, we're just not going to worry about this at St. Andrews. Men had their positions and they were immovable in those convictions, but they still loved one another and believed that they're going to heaven together. How can you expand on that? Good, solid Christians are going to potentially disagree on this.
SPEAKER_00Uh, that's a great question. By the way, um, there is that famous debate between John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul. When I was wrestling with whether or not I embraced infant baptism, um, that debate um uh is what really helped me. I thought John MacArthur won the debate. Excuse me. And uh and that's still available on the Ligonera app. Um, but I love R. C. Sproul. Uh, R.C. Sproul, he's the holiness guy. If you've not read the holiness of God, you need to.
SPEAKER_01You're missing out.
SPEAKER_00You are missing, and and understanding the holiness of God explodes the gospel. I mean, it really makes us thankful for what Christ has done for us. Um, but back to your question, yes, we can uh disagree on this. And I think the reason why is we need to understand and be honest that both sides, credo baptism and paedo-baptism, are making arguments from inference. Now, inference in scripture is and can be authoritative. Now, there are guidelines for that, but um, there is no explicit place in the New Testament that says only believers are baptized, or we baptize infants. So I think it's we have to be honest and charitable with one another that we're both making arguments for inference. And this is probably something for another podcast, but a lot of it has to do with how one views the continuity and discontinuity. Between the Old Testament and the New Testament. That's a big part of meaning, does the church replace Israel? And that's Pedo-Baptists say, well, in the Old Covenant, it was a sign and a seal was circumcision. And in the new covenant, the sign and the seal is baptism. And because they circumcised babies, therefore we baptize. Now that's a really simplistic way of saying it. Sure. But that would be a Paedo-Baptist argument. So it has to do with how you view the continuity versus the discontinuity of the Old Testament and the New Testament as well, which is a much larger discussion than probably we have time for today.
SPEAKER_01So I'm smiling big because I'm tempted to derail this whole thing and go into pastoral nerd hour where you and I have fun, but we have to move on for our wonderful audience. But I promise this one day we'll go there and um have some fun with that. Number seven, age of accountability. You talk about babies, they can't be baptized in our position. We would say you wait till they're you know able to profess faith or adults. Some people they have kids who are 12, 13, 14, and they have clear accountability. They have confessed sin. They are aware of who they were and who they are in Christ. Um other people, you know, they're they tell their nine-year-old, I've been into baptism interviews before with um, remember one young gal, and the parents were real upset with me because you know, I asked her some basic questions and she would answer things like, you know, I I just really want to. And I said, Okay, that's awesome. You know, could you explain to me when you came to maybe a realization that that you wanted to follow Jesus? And she said, Well, I just really love that, you know, my parents really want me to get baptized, and I really love my sister. And and she just kind of told me random sweet things. And I remember, of course, I was gentle with her and talked. I mean, she was nine years old. And when the meeting ended, I said, All right, sweetheart, if you will just step out into the sitting area, I'm gonna sit here with your mom and dad still and and just talk to them. And so the door closed, and they said, You know, what do you think? You know, is that good? And I said, No, I I'd love for you guys to just take some more time. And here's a couple of books to read. Let's there baptism does not save her, so there's no harm in waiting. Let's go another year or two, keep dialoguing, because you don't want to get re-baptized because it wasn't a real baptism, you want to make sure she's a true believer. And they said, Oh, she's gonna be so crushed because her sister's getting baptized, and this is what we wanted. And you know, I just I feel like she knows these answers, it's just a lot of pressure you put on her. And I I literally was very careful. I've done these interviews before. I was a children's pastor for some years at Mission Bible Church, and I remember being taught how to gently walk a young person through basic questions, and I had seen nine, ten, eleven, twelve-year-olds convey clear gospel truth, understanding of sin, that they had changed, that they had repented, and so on all of that can be a real sensitive topic, but how do you navigate at Revolve Bible Church? You know, age of accountability. What do you encourage parents to do? I know it's hard to put a hardline number on it, but in general, is there wisdom in being careful and cautious rushing your kid into the baptism waters?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there's a lot of wisdom about being cautious and not rushing your kid into the baptism waters. In one sense, I get it. Uh, believing parents really desire their children to be saved. And so there can be a temptation, I think, to parents to um push their children to be baptized because their desire is pure in that they want their children to be saved. But we need to remember again, baptism does not save in the sense that it brings regeneration or new life. That occurs prior to as a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. Uh, there is no command that I'm aware of in the New Testament that puts an age on baptism. So we don't at our church set an age of accountability per se. Um, we believe that uh parents need to exercise wisdom and they need to observe their child to see if that child is manifesting fruit that is in keeping with repentance. That's age appropriate. Though, you know, obviously a child who places their faith in Christ, the response is going to look different from a 25-year-old that does. So I think parents would do really well if they spent time studying the book of first John and understanding what the evidences of true salvation are, and then overlaying those things onto the life of their children and just watching, not pressuring. Um children often, if you're a faithful parent who is working to evangelize your child and disciple your child, and you're loving your child, your child's going to want to please you. So sometimes what happens is um, you know, Johnny or Susie might see mommy and daddy worshiping at church or uh and and the child will want to participate because they want to please their parents. So parents have to have to understand that because their children want to please them, they might say, Hey, mom and dad, I want to be baptized. But I think a prudent response would be, okay, son, okay, daughter, well, let's talk about what the gospel is and let's talk about how your life is changing in an age-appropriate way, and then give them some space to just kind of watch and tell them you're watching. Say, hey, I'm looking for fruit in your life. And and the reason why is because when God saves us, it he changes us from the inside. So I hope that's a helpful response, but that's a great question. It's hard for parents.
SPEAKER_01No, that's a tremendous answer. It's very pastoral. And I think you've answered the question, you know, is there is there harm in having your child wait? No. Um, that is good and well. My last question to you, if you could just shed light on this, and I imagine it's probably a quick and easy answer for you in a lot of ways, and maybe similar to what you've just shared about adults um who have children, guiding their children, parents. Is there harm in an adult waiting to be baptized? Why or why not? Why would somebody maybe wait, or what would be the reasons you'd caution an adult to slow down and assess?
SPEAKER_00I think the answer to that is yes, it can be harmful, and no, it cannot be harmful. Um again, people are oftentimes people have an emotional response to a sermon they hear or a gospel call that they hear. Um, and uh and they're not necessarily willing to turn from a besetting sin or turn from a lifestyle that they're involved in. And that person, I might caution them, say, you know, I think you need to wait a little bit because I know that you are you you you understand the gospel uh intellectually and you desire to be forgiven, but to follow Christ means that you have to repent, you have to leave behind your old life. I think um there can be harm in waiting. I remember one uh guy that was baptized at our church, uh, he struggled with what his family would think of him. And so he he pushed back his baptism. And in that case, for him, I told him, hey brother, you cannot wait. Um if you are in Christ, you need to do this as an act of obedience to Christ, he is your Lord. So I think it's a case-by-case situation, and you know, I think pastors uh and and uh brothers and sisters of a person who's maybe newly converted um could exercise wisdom and and whether or not it's uh harmful in waiting or not. But I guess in general, though, it's my encouragement would be waiting doesn't mean you're not saved. So if if you need to wait, wait.
SPEAKER_01So good. Ryan, honestly, thank you for these biblical insights. Thank you for being on the podcast, brother. Where can people go to find a good church in the San Clemente area? Do you know of any there in Southern California kind of ready near the near the beach and um near some great surfing spots? And and if not, where can they watch some of the sermons from your church?
SPEAKER_00I love it. Yeah, they can go to Revolve Bible Church and uh you can go to RevolvBiblechurch.org and all our content and services um are on there. And again, brother, thanks for having me on. It's really been a joy.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, man. I can't wait till the next time that we get to film some more videos. We're gonna be having you back to film some great content this year for for the gospel. And as always, I know that'll be a blessing to people. Our prayer for those of you listening is that this episode will give you the right theological foundation for baptism, or maybe you want to share this with a friend or somebody who's in your family who's in Catholicism, or somebody who's confused about baptism. Send this to them. Don't just hold it and hoard it for yourself. Use it as a resource to help somebody grow. Thank you all for being with us today on the For the Gospel podcast. To learn more about how we are providing sound doctrine for everyday people, go to www.forthegospel.org. Our newest free teaching series on dating, courtship, sex, and marriage is out. It's completely free on our YouTube channel. It's called DTR, as in defining the relationship. And it's perfect for teens, college students, and small groups in your church. And be sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. We'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.