Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we're all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and on today's episode, we have a special recording from a video interview in which I sat down with Pastor Adam Bailey, who's a friend and fellow pastor here in Arizona, to ask him the question: why are you so crazy about church planting? It's a fun conversation. I'll even include one of the really neat moments of how Adam and I met and became friends, and they'll answer serious questions about a theology of church planting and how people and pastors can jump on board as God advances his mission through church planting. I hope you enjoy this interview. Hey man, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm good.
SPEAKER_01Good, good.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01Adam Bailey, good to have you on for the gospel, brother. So I invited you to have a conversation because your impact on my life this last year plus. Uh funny story. I wanted people to get a chance to be a fly on the wall for a conversation. We meet about monthly, have more conversations than we'll even have time for with this, but I want to talk about why you're so crazy about church planting. Pretty big topic, one that you're interested in? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Slightly big passion of yours. Yeah. First little backstory. So how we met. We met because I like to say stuff about the madness that goes on sometimes at Bethel, some of these movements that cause a little trouble. And at times in the past, I would say, you know, people need to leave their church if they sing this stuff, and it's a sin. Your leaders are soft if you're singing this stuff. And I'll never forget, one time we're local, local guys, Christchurch, Gilbert, Shepherd's House, and you get a message. We start talking, and it turns out you're not a heretic, insane, or crazy. Christchurch is pretty good church. I've preached here now, and I begin to realize, okay, there's a there's a middle portion of this conversation. There's danger, and then there's obviously, you know, fair weather leadership that doesn't take a stand on anything, and then there's wisdom and discernment theologically. So we go to Zinberger, we're there to just have fun, talk as brothers and get honest. And we I remember we moved past the conversation about maybe different approach to methods and music. And we begin talking about church planting and the mission of God. And instead of, you know, socking me back and saying, Yeah, all right, whatever then, see ya. I I said, Hey, I'm planting a church. You're pretty into church planting. You seem to have a lot of wisdom. Would you be willing to meet? And you're like, Yeah, let's go put on the calendar. And so that opening of your heart and that brotherly sharpening, I think, was so helpful for me, and I hope it's been at least well, you put up with me. I know that. Helpful. I don't know if it's helpful.
SPEAKER_00Listen, when I think back when from my memory standpoint of meeting you, for the record, uh, I was not the one who interacted with you first. Somebody else from our pastoral team had interacted with you. And my whole memory of that is the sweetness of the spirit's ministry between us, uh, even before we got to talk about what we don't agree on or how we would slice the pie differently on practical issues. And anytime you get that opportunity with another brother in the trenches, loving the same thing after the same things, uh, you're in rare air. You're in a unique spot. So um that's it's not a common thing, sadly, for guys to sit and get the benefit of fellowship that way. So it's all a favorable memory. Um even the fact that you called me a yellow-bellied leader. I oh, you didn't call me that, but that's what I felt. So it is a great thing that God has made us friends and brothers in the mission.
SPEAKER_01I think that you are one of the most deeply convictional leaders. And that I think was what was attractive and what was inviting for me. Um and I I agree, in today's cancel culture, it's like, oh, I don't agree on that. Cool, you're done. Right. Everything you do is ridiculous. And then you realize, hold on, whoa, whoa, there m there's a reason we're local expressions of a big C church, different local expressions, but you have a great deal of wisdom. And so as brothers, yeah, there's a sharpening there. I know my family loves your family so much, and my wife just thinks the world of you guys. And so um, even one more thing that I think people should know, never forget when you invite me to preach here. You said October 30, 30th and 31st, Reformation Weekend, Sola Scriptura, No Bethel songs, preach for me, question mark. And I was like, Thank you for being so kind towards my convictions. And then you open the door and I'm going, that's how we do it. May not agree on everything. We're gonna have some differences, but in the end, brothers on the plow together with the mission of God before us. And that's what I want to talk to you about, really. Um, tell us about the background, Christchurch, vintage mission, what's happening, and why you're so nuts about church planting.
SPEAKER_00Well, the church planting part's the the longer story. I was uh, God save me late in high school, but I had the privilege of being raised by first generation Christian parents who uh during my childhood uh planted two churches uh during my childhood. So I had a dad who uh was passionate to grind for church planting. Um certainly was not coached, didn't get to stand on great shoulders of leaders who had set him up to do that, but he did that anyway, by faith and for the sake of the gospel. So when I was saved, went to uh my undergrad, during my undergrad uh years was the first time I started to think about church planting. And to be honest with you, um, I am passionate about church planting because every church is a church plant. There are no local expressions of the body of Christ that have not begun. So from from the beginning of the record in Acts all the way to today, every church is a plant. So that could be a couple hundred-year-old plant, that could be a 20-year-old plant, that could be, uh, in your case, you know, under a year. But church planting is the mechanism by which the church advances and the gates of hell don't prevail. And I believe the promise of Matthew 16, 18. I believe that we're in the ends of the earth, Acts 1.8. And it is not that everybody must start a new church. There are some who will lead churches that exist toward faithfulness and passion for the mission. But early on in my spiritual life, I had a sense that church planting was uh was going to be the passion of my ministry. So I have planted and pastored two churches now. First one in Central California, and uh had the privilege of doing that at 27 years old, at the ripe age of 27. With all the full of wisdom. I had all the pepper and none of the salt in my hair. So um, and God did great things there. Uh, went through a lot that taught me a ton. And just like I know you've already experienced, but church planting is a humbling engagement. The the father is working with his sons while he's using his sons to accomplish something for his church. So it did a big, big work in my life and uh some some super difficult things, but did not in any way uh squelch the passion for church planting. So in 2012, we came here and uh parachuted here, planted a new body. I was a part of a movement of church plants out of uh one church in Chicago. There was another one of those already here up in North Phoenix, about 35 miles from here. And uh they were great friends, great support, great family to us, and gave us anybody from down in the East Valley of Phoenix who had visited their church, I got their names. So I literally knew nobody. I started cold calling to find if there were any believers here. I think of Lydia in Acts 16. She gets saved, they go out to the place of prayer, whatever that was. It was outside of the of the city. I was looking for the Christians who were meeting. Is there anybody who wants to do something to establish something new? And um, and God has done it. Uh now Christ Church is in its tenth year, and uh, we've just seen God's faithfulness to us. He has preserved um our church with bedrock things that every church that he blesses is a part of. His means of grace don't change, right? They're not cultural, they're not contextual, uh, they're not generational. They are across all of that. And we've just uh been so thankful to be trained that way, to be driven with that conviction. I mean, you mentioned conviction. I am passionate about church planting because I believe it is one of the primary means by which the mission of Christ is being accomplished. And I'm more convinced now uh through the exercise of planting than I was when it was all theoretical and I was excited and chomping at the bit, cage stage as we call it. And uh I I thought I was as convinced as I could be. I'm far more convinced now on this side. So we've started a church planning organization to train church planters to give away what we've been given. And you and I both, uh we've we've celebrated this together. We are the product of incredible investment from uh from people who are ahead of us. So I am so thankful to be sitting, like C.S. Lewis would say, standing on the shoulders of giants to be able to pass on and to continue the 2 Timothy 2-2 process when it comes particularly to starting new local assemblies of the church. So anyway, I don't know if that's what you're digging for, but that's the backstory.
SPEAKER_01Tell us a little bit about Vintage Mission. That's the church planting organization. And then Christchurch, you have there's multiple, quote, multiple Christ churches, but there's local pastor there, you have elders all over. It's not like you on a screen or some other method. You you've got you're raising up men, and then vintage mission, though, two separate things, is a ministry of Christchurch for church planting. How many churches now and where I think that's fun stuff where it's reaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Vintage Mission is uh is a church planting partnership of local churches of which Christchurch is the lead, but it's one of the churches in the partnership. So I believe there are 17, 18 of those partner churches now, and they reach uh all over South and Central America and North America currently. And uh we're working on some stuff in Europe and in Africa and uh even over into the East. So that is a collection of churches, and the reason we call it vintage mission is because we are tipping our cap to the old way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh we want to be biblical, informed by um the expectations that are placed on us in our scripture. So, but it's a particular version of simple discipleship-oriented church, and uh we're seeking to have churches that have affinity to that, that want to be strong enough to multiply into more churches, or churches that are strong enough that just need partnership to train. And so we do both of those. We're helping the churches that are not able to multiply yet to get healthy enough to multiply. It's not a size thing, it's a health thing. And we're helping guys who are already ready to plant to be trained and bringing them in and training them here. They come here for five months and do a do a training uh regiment. So that's vintage mission. It's it flows out of what God has done here. And Christchurch, you reference this, it's a what we call multi-congregational church. So it's one church in three locations inside of our metro. So it has one elder team that leads it. We call that our pastoral team here in um LDS land. We stay away from elder, we go with pastor. Absolutely. But it's our elder team, one elder team, um, one oversight of this, but each congregation has local elders, local lead pastors. Uh, we're preaching the same text uh with the same skeleton, with uh the work being done to put the meat on the bones on our own. Same songs, same kids' ministry, same student approach, same discipleship of adults with studies and groups. All of the things are shared so that it literally is functioning as one, but it's in multiple locations, and each of them have multiple services. So we already are into the multi-congregational discussion once we have multiple services. So here at Gilbert we have four, uh, in Central Phoenix we have two, and then we have two in Peoria as well on the west side.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, it's uh on any given church now. On any given Sunday, you got churches that you've trained, pastors that you've trained. Give me an example of one of the churches in like South America planted Honduras. Honduras. So they're all they're off to the races. And they're not necessarily named Christ Church. None of them are. It's not like, you know, the Adam Bailey show or the Christchurch show. No, you're raising these people up, launching them out, and then at any given point on a Sunday morning across the valley, there's these congregations moving forward like a church ought to, with their own pastors, elders moving forward, preaching.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so two different things, really. So you've got like you've got churches in St. Paul, you got church in Napa Valley, you got church in Honduras. Those are churches that are functioning entirely autonomous, uh, but we're partnered for planting. In our city strategy, we are entirely connected. It's one church. So the autonomy of those congregations is minimal. The com the uh continuity of our connection is high. We're doing the same thing. So yeah, it's it's it's an experiment into trying to reach our city. Okay, now question.
SPEAKER_01So why? And I here's my here's why I want to preface that too. That's gonna be time, money, energy. And then I think, even though I'm not a part of Vintage Mission, I met with you, I said, Hey, can I meet with you every month? You're like, Yeah, I've heard other stories about other guys doing the same thing. I happen to know the pastor over at Christchurch Central Phoenix, was 19, didn't go to Christchurch, was pirating your Tuesdays from you. You were giving them time. He wasn't even part of the church. And you know, you're I I know your patterns because I know you. You so that's a lot of time, energy, money. It's not like you're starting some big thing and you're gonna get rich and it's gonna be a powerhouse because you have 18 churches in this thing. You're literally pouring out. So the big question I want to ask you is why? What's the theology of church planting that and the passion and the zeal that drives you to do what most guys wouldn't necessarily do for not a ton in return, except the joy of wow, these churches are going. Like on a Sunday, if you swipe Instagram, you're watching Nick, you're watching Peoria, you're watching Queen Creek, name another name. Andrew Reed comes out here, we go golf together, he's over at Queen Creek, now he's in Vegas. People men are coming, they're they're coming with their families. You have people come and then they're literally growing, consuming, being filled and strengthened, and then deploying, and they're not all the brand.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01That's weird and different in today's world. Speak to that. Why? Where does it come from?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so two things. One, I I just am convinced that church planting is a primary tool in the Redeemer's hands for his kingdom work to happen. So the thing that's underneath of that is uh the word kingdom often slides over into the word empire. So because of being uh a product of my own discipleship, you being a product of your discipleship and where we come from, I have a particular antenna up for empire building. I don't want to be a part of something that is um is in any way a deterrent to the kingdom advancement. So kingdom is big, broad. It has only one name, only one flag that flies. It's Christ crucified that we preach, um, it's the name of Christ that's exalted. So I want to be a faithful steward with what I've been entrusted with. Uh the passion for vintage mission is for it to be a useful tool for partnership so that there's collaboration, there's the redistribution of truth and of technique and of philosophy and theology, all of those things redistributed so that the multiplication process continues. And the hard reality is we are still a part of the uh outworking of the 12 disciples walking with Jesus. Like it has continued to happen. And I just want to be for my little life in my little moment, and I want it for you and your little life and your little moment for us to be faithful in whatever ways we can strategically to raise up, give away, cheer for support, and then celebrate whatever the king decides to do with uh the investment of the talent. So we come back again and again to the talent parable 10, 5, 2. Um, and uh we just don't want to hide him in the ground. We're gonna invest and uh trust that he'll bring the return on the investment, and it'll be to the praise of his grace. So I don't know if that helps.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I've got some other questions for practicals. If people are watching, they're going, all right, maybe they're a pastor going, Oh, I'd love to church plant, or they're a person going, yeah, church planting, all right. I've I've heard from my friends it was like this, or I remember this and that. Okay. Um a lot of people go, why? Why should I go spend my money, leave the comfort of the chairs, even? Yeah. Because I'm a church planter and our chairs are uncomfortable. And even there was a vendor who said, Hey, I've got 30-minute chairs, 40-minute chairs, and 50-minute chairs. Which ones do you want? And of course, the longer the chair was sittable, the higher the price. The higher the price, that's right. And so we got the 30-minute chairs. They're just, you know, and I'm preaching for 38, so people are shifting and adjusting. I mean, people don't want to go do that. Come to Christchurch and sit on the nice I'll come to Christchurch and sit on the channel. See, we got the 90-minute chairs. Yeah. Why should people go get uncomfortable in a first world context? Or anywhere for that matter?
SPEAKER_00Well, two reasons. One is the sheer connection to the life and the ministry of Christ, so we are not called to comfort. That's not who we've been called to be. Um, and a direct link to the mission in an environment where the cost of discipleship is low. So, two things there. One is the connection to Christ. There is a sweetness to walking in the pathway of our Lord, so hard things, eyes set beyond the cross to the promises that were his, he endured the cross, looking forward. So walking by faith. And the second aspect is we live in a low-cost discipleship environment currently, and it's changing, I understand that, but the cost is low. So to give yourself to spend and be spent, as Paul would say, about his ministry in a first-world environment is actually an exercise in um exactly what we're we were made to do. Now you can do that in your local church and not leave to plant a new one. But I think for many of us, the battle is that comfort becomes this um this second expectation of being a disciple. So I want to grow, I want to be sanctified, I want to change, and I also want to remain comfortable. So church planting pushes you out of that. It forces you into engagements that you wouldn't otherwise have. Secondly, I I think that there's a some level of connection to church planting, gives you the opportunity to be a part of something new that the Lord establishes. And um, we are very rarely a part of new things uh for the most part. Uh, we're not a part of uh the beginning of very many things in our lifetime. So some will have started businesses, some will have been around when their dad changed careers and everything changed and they moved. And but to begin to invest in something, to ask God to do something that uh only he can do, to believe that he will work to create something that doesn't currently exist, to invest my money and time by faith, believing that he will bring whatever return on that he wants, that's an exercise that connects us right to the heart of God and is really a sweet ministry to us.
SPEAKER_01Are you even trying to get the people here at Christchurch to be uncomfortable who are comfortable? For example, there are people here, they don't need to go, there's no need. Sure. You have established, mature, Bible-believing Christians who are teaching in classes, they're walking with people, they're disciples, and then you've got people who are here, they're invested, they're giving, they're growing, they're serving, and even for them, church planting and sending is an exercise in discomfort, in giving, in generosity, in support. Yeah. And even going, why are we doing this again? Even in our opinions of can we just hit cruise like we're good. Let's do 20 years like this. You're getting even grayer than you were when I met you. Like, Leia, it's okay. We look at all we've done. And you're constantly as the leader saying, No more, just let's keep going. Is that part of a local church strategy when people are comfortable still?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think in a first world environment, or maybe it's maybe it's second and third world too, I don't know. But the the outworking of the comfort desire will just keep coming back. So uh you will have to keep calling people in the earliest stages of church planting, we're all doing this anyway. So there's like a built-in discomfort to what we're doing. Nothing is really that great. As things start to get better in certain aspects of the church's life, we need to continue to press forward for the movement of the kingdom advancement that God uses his church to accomplish. So whether that's moving into new ministry venues, whether that is giving up the people that make us most comfortable so that they can go and be a part of something else, whether that's investing deeply in resources so that there's more strategic return on the investment that's already been made. Discomfort extending ourselves is a part of being a disciple of Christ until he comes back for us. So I say a lot here this is not the sweet buy and buy, we're in the nasty now and now. And as long as we're in the nasty now and now, we're gonna we're gonna go hard after kingdom things. And it's not gonna be all roses and steak. It's gonna be difficult at times, and that's gonna be okay. The king is working, and when he comes for us, we will rest. Come on.
SPEAKER_01Alright, I want to speak to church planters, and then I want to go back to people. Church planting can be tempting in people pleasing. And here's why. You've got people coming, you need butts and seats, you need money in the bank. And as a preacher, you can be tempted to lighten a little bit of the truth and try to come one, come all. And I think we see this a lot in church planting rhetoric. It's like, hey, new church in town, like we just want you to come join us, hey. And it's all there. And then people come and a preacher goes, ooh, okay, um, let's let's ease them in. You know, we we want to help them. So speak to the guy who wants to church plant or even the church planter now about how the mission of God runs through even our cultural temptations to ease people in and try to hold on to people. Um that would be one element uh attached to survival, the instinct to survive.
SPEAKER_00Speak to that. Well, in some ways, I feel like I've seen this more than I maybe have even walked this, and I think it would be true for you too. Um God has seen fit in his providence uh to bring enough fruitfulness to sense that he's involved and he's working. I think the challenge in church planters is that you begin to do something, you begin to build something that doesn't exist. So uh your life is invested in it, your marriage is invested in it, uh your uh your income is invested in it, you're you and if you're not careful, here's what happens: your identity becomes invested in it. So once you move away from a servant of the Most High God, a son and co-inheritor with Christ in glory, um a gospel human being who has an identity outside of this particular expression of my ministry for Christ, you start to really want to be successful by measures that are either your own or are common in our culture. Once that's there, uh the real potential for compromise uh is heightened. It's very real. So I think one of the things that I can't express this like strong enough in a moment like this is that if the foundation is not laid properly, I think of Paul's 1 Corinthians, uh, where he talks about he's building on the foundation. There's only one foundation, but the the depth of the slab we live in the desert. So the slab of your house is built on has a lot to do with what it's going to be like when things get difficult. So the convictional level of why you're there, what you're there to accomplish, and who you're there to please will be so much of uh it'll show itself in what happens when things aren't as fast, aren't as big, aren't as easy as you thought they might have been. And all of us as church planners have daydreamed about what it will be like. Um so why you're there, why have you come? I ask church planners all the time, why do you need, why do you need to be here? Why are you here? And then what are you here to do? Are you actually here to disciple, to walk people toward, make disciples in the Great Commission? And then, and then like how is that going to play itself out? If those things are not deeply rooted in you, the temptation will be to take on more responsibility for it than you ought. You ought to just trust that the Spirit's means of grace that he gave us will be the effective thing. His mission is our mission, um, his agenda is our agenda. The reason we're here is because uh there are more souls to be gathered for his name in this city. So here's something that comes up a lot. And I I've tried to encourage, I was I'm preaching through John, the Gospel of John currently. One of the things that comes up for my own life is the reminder from John the Baptist. I don't know if you remember this, but in in John chapter one, uh the apostle John just jumps into talking about who Jesus is, the eternality of the sun, and all these things. It's awesome stuff. Uh but then he gives us this little glimpse into the forerunner. And he has a pretty deep appreciation for John the Baptist because of how much time he gets at the very beginning of that gospel record. But John the Baptist has a little line that he says to the people that are questioning him about who he is. I mean, this guy is he's a bit different, he's he's living a different lifestyle. He's he's saying things that nobody's saying. He eats a lot of different things. He eats a lot of different things, he's wearing some different clothes, his style's his own. And they ask him who he is, and I this is the line. I am not the Christ. So I think church planters have to put it on your forehead. I am not the Christ. Um, I know the Christ. Uh I'm here for the Christ, and I can lead you to the Christ, but I am not the Christ. And so I am not in charge of what we do here. The Christ, who is the head of this church, is actually going to dictate what we do. I can't produce the return or the fruit. Only the chief shepherd can add to the flock of his sheep. So I just want to be really careful that I know who's in charge here, and that I'm not the Christ that will save this, and I'm not the Christ that will build this. He's the one who will build his church, and he will use agents like us in spite of us to accomplish that. So I don't know if that helps, but I think there's some tendencies to compromise. There's some tendencies to get what is in church planning world called creative. Um, I'm all for creativity that resembles our our creator's image, but I really am nervous about creativity when it comes to the church. Uh it's already been given to us. Pour the foundation deeply before you start. Remember that you're not the Christ in the middle, and if you're successful, you're not the Christ. And if it's a struggle and you cannot seem to get traction, you're not the Christ. And when you're in the survival mode and you don't know that it's ever going to go anywhere, and you're facing that reality head on, it is your identity, it's who you are that must be established. And uh, I've walked that road, I have been in those dark times, I've been in those seasons where you're wondering what's going on, and I've been on the other side of those as well. And either side of the coin, I'm not the Christ, but I know him and I love them and I trust them and I can lead others to them. So good.
SPEAKER_01I remember the line you said once in one of our meetings together, you just said run the play. And you were talking about looking at what the Bible says, run the play.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I just think creativity when it comes to what we're actually here to do. So we say at Vintage Mission, we're here to plant doxological. Um, missional is a tricky word because I know it gets messy. But what we mean by that is on the mission for the extension of the kingdom through the proclamation of the gospel message. So it's doxological for the glory of God. It's vertical, it's missional, and it's highly intentional. Uh so the word creative is not in there for we do creative things, but we are not creative in what we've built because we're not the ones who architect. The ordinary means of grace are that's what you depend on. Cross-generational, cross-cultural, cross-contextual. So, yes, you are specifically in the community you're in to reach the people you're with. You should be speaking the language of the people. You should be um the gospel should be attainable through your testimony. But those means of grace they fit everywhere for all of time until the king returns.
SPEAKER_01All right. I want to talk about the heart of a pastor, a leader, and then people as well. I have known you a bit now, spent some quality time with you, and I've seen some patterns in you. I've made some notes on these just so I would get them accurate and I thought of some more. I already mentioned a few.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01The way that you are with other leaders, other people, with me, with others. You, when I preached here, um you made a comment to me, and even afterwards, I've met certain people that come to Shepard's house. I'm like, Oh, how'd you hear about the church? It was like Adam Bailey, you know. I'm like, oh, all right, Adam Bailey. And I remembered you making a statement. You said, Brother, I hope some people go with you. Hope you button up a few people and they go. And I was like, you know, you're weird, right? That's like that's not no one says that. It's cutthroat competitive. Sure. It's like, ah, you know, and we're we're enough distance away, I get it. But in general, we're in the valley.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01And still there's this attitude in pastoral ministry and leadership. I'm not even gonna go to the theological camps, it's in all camps, of well, you're the new guy or you're this guy, now you're a threat. You're gonna take people and money away from me, and now we're into the Christ syndrome. I've watched you act that way, not the negative way, the positive way, and go, yeah, good. And then you said something to me about the reason. And I remember going, why? Like, why would you why would you do that for me and for our church? Like, why would you help with the mission? And you said, Well, because I don't mind if people are gonna leave and get uncomfortable for the mission of God versus consumerism. Speak to that a little bit and the kind of heart that we should have as leaders and as people when other churches are succeeding, quote, and moving forward, what should that look like in the big C body of Christ?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's a perpetual challenge because we're sinners and we're involved in this. But at the end of the day, if we are church planters, then we have seen God gather together a group of believers to establish a new assembly in a local community. So in the future, when he leads others or even those same believers to go and be a part of another new expression of his body in the community, then I find it hypocritical for us to be um white-knuckled with those people then when we were eager to have them help us establish something back when we started. So it really comes down, listen, here's the thing, Costi. It comes down to whose kingdom are we representing. So if I welcomed you to speak here and this is my kingdom, then you are on my turf with my people, and I've welcomed you to do something for me here. But if I'm here and everything that's here as Christ Church is a part of Christ's kingdom, then I'm here for him. You're here as a guest for him. All these people that he has regenerated and redeemed and loves are for him. So there's an open-handedness that comes. And I I'm not I'm not uh separated from the pain of people leaving. I love the people that God has brought, and to see them go at times is heartbreaking to man think, ah, I wish the relationship had more time to develop. But if inside of his kingdom, people are moved for his kingdom, then I am I'm all in. Like, and I want to see that happen more and I want to see it happen further. So am I excited about people from Christchurch Gilbert uh being a part of Shepherd's House over in Chandler? Sure. I'm also really excited about people in Gilbert going to the 1040 window to an unreached people group. So I can't be excited about one of those and then not the other one when both are within the realm of the resurrected king's leadership and his mission. So I don't know. The Lord has worked that out in me. I don't come from that naturally. I'm not that way. I'm highly competitive. Um, I think part of church planting, if I can speak to a certain group that maybe would be listening to this, that are from a very narrow theological slice of the pie, they got some really solid walls around their backyard. I mean, those are some high, solid backyards. No, this is like these are like these are like Arizona walls. We put those things in concrete. Okay. If that's who you are, be careful that you're not planting a church to collect all the people who already love that kind of a yard. Because if you are, and then you meet the other guy who's also got the same walls up. You're coming. It's war. It's war against you too. And it should not be war because we're here with those walls. I have some serious walls. I'm here with those for the sake of the people who do not know Christ. So will there be a group of believers to start the assembly? Yes. But our mission is to reach now in the East Valley, I don't know, we're over 1.3 million people or something in our growing massively. Massively. So uh I told you this when you planted. If you blew up in the first year to 20,000 people at Shepard's House. 20,000 people, you'd be on every magazine cover. You would be, you'd be back in the life you missed. Adam gave me all his secrets. If you do that, and every guy that we know is walking in the truth has the same thing happen. Yeah, we will be we will be the tip of the iceberg of the souls that are in the community that are in desperate need of the one true gospel. So I don't know how you're not open-handed if you're a kingdom guy. My wife, we were just recently in the car together, we were heading somewhere that was gonna be a challenging, uh, bring some challenging relational things. And my wife being the the sweet um disciple of Christ that she is in my life, she said, Whose kingdom are we representing? And uh, because if it's our kingdom, we're gonna make sure some people there know that they're not welcome inside of our walls. But if we're there for Christ's kingdom, there's nobody. There's literally nobody that we wouldn't welcome either to share the gospel with them or to welcome them into a fellowship moment for the sake of his glory and his kingdom and all the things that he loves. So I think that's where that comes from.
SPEAKER_01That's excellent. Okay, one more question and then some fun one-liners. Um the the where is where's the line? Because we have fences, I offences, you offenses, we've talked about our fences, there's a lot of common fences. Where does the line begin in which you say, no, no, no, no, no. As a shepherd, not a dominator, we don't tell people what color to paint their houses and where they're allowed to live. But you step in with a spiritual authority through scripture to go, no, no, no, we I need to warn you about that. We're not going, you don't go there. This is not what we would recommend. Where do you step in to tell people that is not where we would want you to go? The mission of God has not helped in your life and there if you're going to just jump ship to that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the the simple answer would be anywhere where the person and work of Christ, as revealed in our scriptures, is denigrated or distorted. Secondly, anywhere where the authority sufficiency, inerrancy, and inspiration of scripture is downplayed or set aside. And thirdly, anywhere where God Himself is mangled into some other version that is a human-made, it's an idol. So whether that be the person in the work of the Holy Spirit, is so distorted and so man-made that it would be actually a detriment to the discipleship of the people that we're caring for. So where Christ is uh wrongly uh seen, where the scriptures are uh denigrated, or where God Himself, especially the Spirit's ministry, is extremely twisted, I would be I'd be quick to express concern, protection, guardianship uh for the sake of the souls. We will answer for the souls, so it's not a flippancy. Uh Christ Church, we have local church membership. We're we're accounted for all of that because we believe we will give an answer, Hebrews chapter 13, for the souls that are in our care.
SPEAKER_01So well said. Okay, some one-word answers only. Okay. We're gonna have some fun. One word. The feeling when you moved here and started from scratch. Expectation. You moved into your first permanent facility with what Christchurch was at that time. That body, that initial body. You move into your first facility. Permanent. Thrill. The feeling when Christchurch planted the first church beyond Christchurch Gilbert.
SPEAKER_00Gratitude.
SPEAKER_01The feeling when the first international church plant and plant her amazement. The first elder meeting with Christchurch, elders, which I will add this, I know already, because the photo over there, one of my favorite photos, 13? Yeah, no, yeah. No. Yeah, so but a lot of those men from day one still here. Yeah. First meeting. Umity. When a church member goes home. One word. I mean, dude, one word? Come on.
SPEAKER_00You are I can't say anything with one word. Neither can you. You are a homilitian. You're getting to use all the words for the question, and I get one of the words for the answer. Supernatural unity has got to be words. You are a homilitician.
SPEAKER_01My wife said, if you weren't playing a church, I'm like, I know, I would come sit under this guy's preaching. When a church member goes home to be with Jesus. Which happened recently. A few of them. Yeah. Oh. Joshua Sellers singing your grace. Testimony. So good. And you guys wrote that here. I'll add a little addendum. Matt Redman involved a little bit. You guys jam in. My favorite song right now. And it's in Spanish. Yes, it is. Our first time meeting for Zinberger. Curiosity. Nice. Yeah. Substitute teaching. Substitute teaching. Systematic theology classes at Gilbert Christian here locally as a substitute teacher. We both we both got asked. Yes.
SPEAKER_00For high schoolers. Yes. For you. I had juniors, you had seniors. I had systematic. What'd you ask? I had apologize. Apologetics. You want a one word of what that was like? One word for you. Confirming that I'm in the right calling. I thought you were going to say exhausting or draining. Yes, all of that. But confirming that I'm not supposed to do that was my life. Oh, so good. So good.
SPEAKER_01Breakfast recently with John MacArthur, J Mac.
SPEAKER_00Um I already used the word. I don't know if I can repeat in this game show. Well loud if you can't think of one.
SPEAKER_01I'm grateful.
SPEAKER_00Weekends at Christchurch. Exhilarating. Yeah. I'm exhausted too at the end, but they're exhilarating. I think I don't know that I've ever been a part of a church that's like this one when it meets. It's um the anticipation of what God does, the expectation of seeing each other, the way guests are brought in. It's absolutely beyond my wildest uh expectations. And it is it is truly the kind of thing, you know when Paul says in Ephesians that he prays for these giant supernatural things to happen, and then he he reminds them that God is able to do far more abundantly than we could ask, which is all those big supernatural things. It's absolutely exhilarating.
SPEAKER_01That's the one word that's how you know you love this family because you broke all the rules and you just used like 16 sentences. I love him. The word for taste comes to mind. Yeah, as I've been doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. The return of Christ. Soon. I love it. Well, I I want to be respectful of time. Um let's do this again. We'll talk about other topics. If you could encourage a believer who's watching this, whatever their life stage, with one exhortation, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00Oh man. I think uh the one exhortation to a believer would be to pursue the functional this is gonna sound technical, but uh I can unpack it a little bit, but the functional integration of the gospel truth into the actual daily life that you're living. I I just my life has been changed by the invasion of the gos like I was raised in a in a tradition where the gospel kind of got things going, and then and then we used it to get people going, but it was not a part of the functional like integration of my spiritual life. So uh I was just reading through the pastoral epistles this morning, and Paul is just bringing to each one of those congregations, um, he's bringing again those gospel realities. You were this, but now you're this, and God was planning this in eternity past, and he brought it to fruition through the personal work of Christ, and he had a mystery, he didn't tell anybody that the Gentiles and the Jews were gonna be together. There's gonna be this one new man, it was gonna be the wisdom of God made manifold, like expressed in the world. So I just think that I don't think our greatest need is uh some more uh personal rules or uh guardianship over us being holy. I think what we desperately need is the gospel to inform our affection for Christ, which will produce righteousness, it will, it will produce the energy to mortify sin. Um I think of Philippians 2, 12 and 13, where Paul says, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. And I don't, he doesn't mean work your salvation. He means put your salvation from the inside on the outside, work it out. For it is God who is at work in you, both to want and to work, what would bring him pleasure. So I think that's the gospel truth on the inside making its way to the outside because the Spirit of God is inside, producing the wants and the will and the energy to do what would bring him pleasure. So I don't know if that helps.
SPEAKER_01Such a of course it helps. You point to the gospel. Yeah, come on, man. Yeah. Well, thankful for your brother. Thank you for your investment into my life, into our church, into my family. And hey, bonus.
SPEAKER_00I got a bonus. Go. Okay, church planting bonus. Your tendency will be to get any warm body you can get and to plug them into any hole in that boat because that thing's going down. Yes. You look like you want to be here. I don't know anything about you, I don't know your last name, but you're gonna now do this. Like jam them in there, plug up as many holes as I can get going, right? No. Fight the urge. You're looking for faithful people, available people who have the bandwidth, because your goal as a shepherd is for them to thrive, not to survive. Faithful, they're already in. Now, I know in church planting that may be that they were in for 10 minutes, but they're faithful. They've returned, they've been back, they've they've taken steps, they're available, they're skilled. You're actually looking for skills. And then lastly, teachable. Will they will they receive, or do they come to you and tell you exactly how to do it? And they're so thankful that you have them so that now you can know what needs to be done, will survive. That's a hard thing to deal with in church planning because they're warm body who loves Jesus, but they're not teachable. They don't have any skill. So you're like, well, he's the only guy that says he knows how to play the guitar, but he really is terrible at guitar. Like, let's not do that. Faithful, available, skilled, and teachable. That's fast. Look for fast people. Oh, that's good. If they're not skilled, that's just fat people, and that's a different thing altogether. Right? I was trained by somebody who told me to look for fat people, and I thought this was a very inappropriate, teachable, teachable, but skilled, let's be fast. And you get out of the awkward discussion about body mass, not something you want to use as an illustration, George Blanty. Dude, fast. So good.
SPEAKER_01Love you, man. Love you too. Thankful for you and appreciate all you're doing. Praying the Lord still keeps his hand of power upon your ministry. I believe he will. And you stay in the word. Keep going. Thanks for listening to the Further Gospel podcast. My prayer is that this resource has helped you think more about the way God advances his mission through the local church. For more information about our ministry, to give, or check out videos that we're putting out, go to furthegospel.org or subscribe on YouTube, or you could even follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. I'll be back next week with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.