Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn. And on today's episode, I've asked my friend, converted Catholic, and faithful, courageous evangelist, Mike Gendrin, back on the podcast to give us wisdom on this question. I left Roman Catholicism. Now what? Mike, my faithful brother, welcome back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's good to be back on your show, Costi, especially to talk about all the new converts in your church that have left the Roman Catholic religion and really exchanged their religion for a relationship with Christ.
SPEAKER_00Oh, praise God. Yeah, I am very excited. Over the last few months, we have we're eight weeks into a church plant, and we've seen multiple conversions from Roman Catholicism. And it turns out your previous episode was a really big help in their lives. I am a big fan of your ministry. I'm a big user of your ministry because you break things down so simply and really airtight with biblical arguments as to why Catholicism is not a true and biblical gospel. And then also you help people understand how to come out of it. And so, but beyond my local context and how much of a help your ministry has been to the people in our church, your episode that you did was one of the most downloaded ever for our show. And it's because you hit a nerve. A lot of people think Catholics are Christians, and many think we share the same gospel. One movement that's growing in popularity that we're going to be dealing with on next week's episode is the John 17 movement. It's out here in the valley where I pastor, here in Arizona, started in Phoenix. Uh, this idea that we're gonna all unite under one gospel and sort of one religion, and that Catholics and Christians are just brothers and sisters. We all need to come together. You have done so much work faithfully as a humble servant for gospel work in regards to Catholicism. Uh I want to start with this brief brief recap. Is Catholicism another gospel? Why or why not?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it is another gospel. They deny the sufficiency of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so, they add requirements to the gospel. If you're a Roman Catholic, you need to be baptized. That's the sacrament of regeneration and justification. And then once you're baptized, then you have to do good works. In fact, you have to do good works in order to be justified. And there's a very great divide right here because at the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church declared that if anyone believes that they are justified by faith alone, they are anathema. And so it's interesting because Paul anathematizes anyone who adds to the gospel of grace. And so you have the Roman Catholic Church condemning born-again Christians, and then you have the Bible condemning Roman Catholicism for preaching another gospel. And so the gospel is very simple. It's Christ has done everything necessary to save sinners completely and forever. It is a salvation by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone. But in Roman Catholicism, it is grace plus merit, it's faith plus works, it's Christ plus other mediators, and they have an authority of Scripture plus their sacred tradition. So the gospel of the Roman Catholic religion is under the divine curse of Galatians 1, 6 to 9. And that's why Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They have a false and fatal gospel. They need to repent and believe the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00Really well said and very succinctly. If you're listening to this and you're going, okay, I want to know more about that, I've got a previous episode with Mike, so just scroll through our podcast and you'll find those. We've titled the those podcasts, you know, Christianity versus Roman Catholicism, uh, and asked certain questions in those. Mike, this is an episode where I want you to help people who have come out of Catholicism now, and they say, okay, what do I do? This stems from conversations I've had as a local shepherd with people in our church. I love these conversations. It's hey, okay, now what? Where do I start? And in walking with people through those questions, I realized this is really common. So I left Roman Catholicism. Now what? Here's my first question for you. How would you encourage a newly converted Catholic with regards to prayer? Because all they've ever known, and this is from one friend of mine who said this, yeah, I've got kind of the Hail Mary's down and a few chants and some ritualistic approaches to it. And I hear you guys pray, and it's, you know, Father this and Jesus that. Like, okay, where do I start? How do I do real prayer? Genuine question.
SPEAKER_01Well, sure, we always direct people back to the scriptures. In fact, Jesus taught us how to pray. In fact, he taught us how to pray in Matthew chapter six, and he first of all said, don't be like the Gentiles who pray with repetitious, meaningless words. And as a Roman Catholic, we used to pray repetitious prayers to Mary. It was almost a mantra. I mean, we never even thought what we were saying, it just came out repetitious, meaningless prayers. But Jesus taught us how to pray. He said, Pray to the Father through him, the one mediator between God and man. And Jesus also said in John 16, verses verse 23, that if you ask anything in my name, my father will give it to you. Of course, there's a caveat there, because I think the most um focused prayer Jesus ever had was the day before he went to the cross. And he asked the Father to let this cup of wrath pass from him, but not my will, but thy will be done. And so that's what we need to model after. We pray to the Father for different things, but then we say, Father, you know best, not my will, but thy will be done. And so Jesus taught us how to pray. We should I I think a good a good way to pray is uh to remember Acts. We begin by adoring the Father, and that's how the our Father starts out, and then we confess. The C is for confess, we confess our sins, T is for thanksgiving. Thank you, Lord, for saving me. And then S is for supplication. You know, we make our request known to the Lord. So ACTS is a good model to pray. I encourage Roman Catholics and even those who have been converted out of the Roman Catholic Church to look to the Lord Jesus. He's a great model for prayer.
SPEAKER_00That's such a great answer. As far as posture, uh, maybe ex-Roman Catholics are thinking, should I um, you know, get on my knees? Should I can I pray when I walk around? Do I need to be in church when I pray? Do I, you know, how or when or where can I pray?
SPEAKER_01Anywhere and everywhere. We are to pray constantly to the Lord and just lift up praise, prayers. Um, I'll never forget, you know, the sun rises and sunsets. You know, when I see the sun rising, I I just lift up a prayer of praise. Thank you, Lord, that your son rose from the dead and I am secure in my salvation, knowing that you were satisfied with his death on my behalf. I mean, just constantly throughout the day, just having common well, communion, if you would, just having conversation with our Lord. And uh, we can pray anywhere and at any time. The Lord is always there. That's often how I begin my prayers. Thank you, Lord, that I can always come to you. You're always there, you're always listening, you're always willing to hear my prayers.
SPEAKER_00Really good. When you were first converted out of Catholicism and saved by the Lord, did you experience any awkwardness with prayer? And do you feel like it was sometimes you the more you do it, the more you get comfortable with talking to God and walking in obedience, and they they don't need to be worried about being perfect in it and sounding really chanty and you know rehearsed, but just talk to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01Sure, it's a heart-to-heart conversation with the Lord. And I would encourage those who are really struggling with how to pray. There's an excellent book. It's by John MacArthur, one of my heroes of the faith, and he's been a mentor of mine for 30-some years, but he's got a book at the throne of grace. And what he does is he prays scripture back to the Lord. And so it's a great outline for how we pray. And I think the more you read a book like this, the more comfortable you will be in praying.
SPEAKER_00Awesome answer. Another one, a lot of Catholics deal with family conversations, and one of the common things I run into in these conversations with people who have converted from Catholicism is well, my family, you know, said to me, Oh, so, you know, what do you mean you're a Christian? Like you're you're still a Catholic, though. There's almost this cultural element to Catholicism. How would you help encourage converted Catholics to talk to their family? May seem really basic of a question to some of you listening, but this is a huge one for Catholics that whose family members are still very rooted in Catholicism.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a very good question, Costi, because I did it the wrong way when the Lord saved me, and I had such joy and excitement. I couldn't wait to go home for Christmas and tell my three brothers and sister and my parents, and I just thought they were going to receive the gospel with the same joy and gladness that I did. And I really did it the wrong way. I just let them have it. I mean, I would I had so much excitement, and I couldn't stop sharing all the good news that I had learned from the Bible. And I could see the walls going up very quickly, and they were reeling backwards. In one sense, I backed up the theological dump truck and I let them have it all in one fell swoop. So that was the wrong way. And so now I would encourage people to speak the truth in love. And we have to remember that one of the best ways to share the gospel is by asking questions, because people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Amen. And and and just let them know I love you so much that I've been reading the Bible and I I found out that we can know for sure that we have eternal life, and it's given as a free gift of God's grace. And what we need to do is we need to repent of everything we've been doing to save ourselves and put all of our trust and faith in the Lord Jesus. But I've developed some questions over the years that we can encourage people to consider. And some of the questions would be uh, what is your source for knowing truth? You know, as Roman Catholics, we have three different authorities. And is is there one authority that you trust more than the others? And I would encourage them to talk about the Bible. It can never mislead us, it can never deceive us because it's the very inspired word of God. We can ask people, our family members, what are you trusting to get to heaven? What is the object of your faith? And is it Christ alone? It's so often I think when we ask that question of Roman Catholics, they will speak about everything except Jesus. They will talk about all they're doing to save themselves. And we can uh ask some other questions like what is the greatest gift you've ever received? There's no greater gift than eternal life. It's a free gift of God's grace. Um why did Jesus have to die? A great question to ask not only your Catholic friends, but even your Christian friends. So often people say because he loved us. Well, no, that was his motivation. Why did he have to die? Wow. See, in Roman Catholicism, they don't teach the penal substitution of Christ. And so I was taught as a Catholic for 35 years that Jesus died for the sins of the world. Well, now I know that was history. When I found out Jesus died for me, that was salvation. He was my substitute. He went to the cross to take upon the wrath of God that I deserved. And then what did he give us in return? He gave me his righteousness, and that's my passport into heaven. 2 Corinthians 5, 21. And so as we're asking these questions, more often than not, they're not going to know the answers. And so they will begin asking us questions. But some of the things to remember is let's don't argue with our family members. Our mission is to give the message of the gospel because God's the one that's going to give the increase. God's the one that's going to bring them to life. And so we need to just faithfully share the message of the gospel and then leave the results to God. I played a lot of tennis. Tennis was a big mission field for me. And so sharing the gospel is a lot like playing tennis. You volley a question over, you wait for their response. You share a scripture with them, you wait for their response to the scripture. And it's back and forth a balanced conversation. So when you see the walls going up, maybe it's time to say, well, let me just leave you a gospel track. Maybe you can look these scriptures over and maybe we can get back together again. But we never want to get into a point where there's an argument. In fact, whenever an argument occurs, um maybe you could say something like, you know, if our roles were reversed, I would want you to pursue me with these truths so that I could be saved.
SPEAKER_00So good. As you're talking, I'm visualizing the warm-ups of tennis and then the difference in a game where, you know, in tennis, you send one back, you send one back, you send one back, and then maybe sometimes we all do this. I've been guilty of it. When the the shot comes across, maybe a little harder from the other side, you rear back and you send one down the line to try to beat them. And that's not really the approach. It's more of you know warm-ups when you're volleying and you're really trying to enjoy the process of back and forth. Mike, that is such wisdom. And I think with your stage and age and how long you've been doing this for in ministry, there's so much for us as another generation that's trying to be faithful gospel witnesses to learn. And I don't mean that in the sense that you're old and done. I mean you've been doing this and you still got juice in the tank, so to speak, gas in the tank, and you're going hard. But there is so much to learn from the way that men like you have faithfully done this over the years, so that's so helpful. I I got another question for you. Where do I start with reading my Bible? How do I study it on my own in the Catholic Church? I never got to read the Bible, or you know, I had one, but it was just sort of a religious formality. Where would you encourage, or how would you encourage, someone who left Roman Catholicism to engage Scripture?
SPEAKER_01Well, sure. I would really encourage them to start with the Gospel of John. And in the Gospel of John, he mentions the word believe 98 times. This is what happens if you believe, and this is what happens if you don't believe. So I would encourage people as they're reading the Gospel of John, get a highlighter out, highlight the word believe, and then read the context surrounding that word. The whole Gospel of John will really equip them to know who Christ is. He is the one and only Savior. He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through him. And um in John 14, 6, which I just quoted, another way to say that he is the way for those who are lost. He's the truth for those who are deceived, and he's the very life for those who are dead in their sin. So all through the Gospel of John, they're going to be encouraged that they really have made the right decision to exchange their worthless religion for a relationship with the Father through the Son. And after reading the Gospel of John, I would encourage them to go next to the epistle to the Romans. Here is where Paul lays out the gospel. He in the first three chapters, he shares why we need the gospel, and then he deals with what the gospel is. And all the way through the book of Romans, they can be encouraged by knowing that they believe the one and only exclusive gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And then afterwards, I take them to the book of Galatians. That's where Paul defends the gospel, its exclusivity and its purity. So those would be the three books I would encourage them to start with.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Will you do one quick breakdown of genres in the New Testament? So a cat uh an ex-Catholic is looking, they're like, okay, the Gospel of John, and then I'm going to read Romans and I'm going to read Galatians. Mike, what what's going on here? Where so there's stories about Jesus, and then there's these guys that are talking about stuff. Can you would you give a quick kind of overview of how the New Testament, those 27 books, are broken up, and so people understand what context they're in?
SPEAKER_01Well, sure. The four gospels all speak about the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. And then in the book of Acts, we see the gospel going forth throughout the first century, and we see the apostles going out to the Jews and the Gentiles to proclaim this glorious gospel of grace. It's the announcement that Christ has come. He went to the cross as a substitute to die in the place of sinners. And then three days later, God showed that divine justice was satisfied through the death of Christ. He raised Jesus from the dead. And the resurrection of Christ becomes the most important day on the Christian calendar. Because the death of Christ would not have meant anything had not been for the resurrection three days later. It really was God's stamp of approval that indeed sins have been paid for. And at the resurrection, Jesus Christ appeared to 40, and then he ascended into heaven to the point where he now is alive. He's our advocate. And he's our intercessor. We can go to the Father through him. One of the beautiful pictures that we saw at the death of Christ was the veil separating the Holy of Holies from sinful man was ripped open from top to bottom, showing that it was God that did this. And now through faith and the shed blood of Jesus Christ, we have direct access to the Father. We no longer need priests offering sacrifices for sin because Jesus, the perfect high priest, offered himself the perfect sacrifice to a perfect God who demands perfection. And then he cried out, it is finished. And so we know that we have this assurance based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So the epistles then speak about all the things that Christ accomplished, and it gives us the opportunity to put our faith into practice and to apply the message of the gospel to our life such that we can be messengers for Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5, we are called to be ambassadors for Christ, to beg people on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. That is such a helpful breakdown. So the Gospels, Romans, or uh the Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, more of a historical narrative that shows us the way the church exploded and the apostles went out, the mission of God was going forth, and then the epistles generally would be like Romans to Jude in there, and then you have John's revelation of end times in Revelation. So that breakdown is really helpful. Okay, another couple more questions, and then we'll let you go. Um can you explain to an ex-Catholic why in their new church they might be invited to a small group or a Bible study why we do that and then what they're supposed to do? Maybe they feel pressure, like, okay, everyone talks. Am I supposed to talk? And maybe others are going, I just want to listen. I've I've spent my life in Catholicism. This is really cool. We're sitting around with Bibles, people are talking. I trust the leader here. I just want to listen. Would you help maybe break down why do we do Bible studies and get together in sort of these smaller one-another circles?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I just love small group Bible studies. And when I was first converted to Christ and exchanged my religion for a relationship with him, I had been like a dry sponge in the desert for 35 years. I had never opened the Bible. And now all I wanted was the Bible. And so I found myself at a different Bible study every morning of the week before I went to work. I just couldn't get enough of God's word. And so when we recognize that we have been adopted into God's family, we have brothers and sisters in Christ. And this was so important to me because my family ostracized me from them when I left the Catholic religion and became a Christian. They didn't want anything to do with me, but God gave me a new family. And so these small groups are an opportunity for new Christians to come together and to begin discipled in the truth of God's word. And it's an opportunity to ask questions. You know, the New Testament speaks of so many one another, where the body of Christ comes together to pray for one another, to serve one another, to encourage one another, to carry one another's burdens. And so these are opportunities to fellowship with one another. I would encourage new Christians to also look for a mentor, someone who is mature in the faith that can begin discipling them in the truth and leading them to mature as a disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that's really what the Great Commission is to go and make disciples, teaching them to observe everything I've commanded. So these small groups are a great way to do that, to come together in small groups and to share a lot of what's on your heart and ask people to pray for you and just to share the love of the Lord and worship together.
SPEAKER_00Love it. Yeah. Okay, last big question. I don't know the Bible, Mike. I left Catholicism. I know I'm saved. I believe in this true gospel, and I see everything really clearly for what it is, and I have peace in my heart with God because of Christ. I'm at peace with God. I believe I've been reconciled, as I was told once in a sermon, and it totally makes sense. Okay, but so many other of these Christians, they know more than I do, and they they're so fast with their Bible verses, and they all know what to say, it seems, and their prayers sound so eloquent. How long will it take, Mike? How long will I feel like I'm just sort of a baby and I can't even swim in the shallow end? So, Mike, what I'm asking you to do is encourage people who maybe feel like they've been in religion for 20 years, 10 years, their whole life, and now they're in a relationship with God and they feel a little insecure.
SPEAKER_01First of all, I would encourage them to enjoy their spiritual journey. They have been born again to a new life in Christ. And so we all need to start with the pure milk of God's word, just like infants start with a bottle. And so don't be discouraged, don't be embarrassed. In fact, sit next to somebody in a small group, and as they turn to different verses in the Bible, just ask them to help you find these different verses. And um, we all need to start at the beginning. And as far as how quickly you can grow and maturity, well, it depends on how often you're abiding in God's word. You know, Jesus said in John 8, 31 to 32, if you're truly a disciple of mine, you will abide in my word. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. And I know looking back when I first left the Catholic Church, I carried so much of this false doctrine into my life that all I wanted to do is purge it away. I wanted to be filled with the truth. And so that's what the word of God does. It teaches you the truth so that you can put aside all the errors and the doctrinal deception that you grew up with as a Catholic. And well, it's almost like peeling an onion. You know, as you abide in God's word, you're peeling away all these doctrinal misconceptions and doctrinal deceptions that were indoctrinated into your mind as you grew up as a Catholic. And so you really need the word of God to be used as a scaffold, just to peel away that and just enjoy the journey. Don't rush it. I mean, and enjoy the word of God, just abide in it. And uh, I think you'll come to a knowledge of the true Savior very rapidly, and you'll just grow in your love for him because the more you read about him, the more you're gonna love him and to realize what he did to save you. It's really gonna encourage you in your spiritual walk.
SPEAKER_00I love it. All right, we're gonna have you back on. We're gonna talk about the John 17 movement in the next episode and help people have more discernment with regard to what I would say are concepts of false unity. And we would say it this way for the gospel. The devil loves unity that ignores the truth. And so we want to walk in the truth, and we don't want to just throw stones at everybody and think that we're always right and just slam them and win arguments. We want to win souls, and so that's gonna be the goal of our next episode. Mike, would you do us a favor? There's people that are driving listening to this, they're maybe at the gym, they're maybe on a walk, maybe they're on a lunch break or what have you. Would you pray for the person who has left Catholicism? They're a new Christian, and encourage them through your prayer.
SPEAKER_01Well, sure. Oh, sovereign Lord, we do thank you as your word goes forth that it will find fertile soil and people that hear the word of God. We recognize it's the unperishable seed that brings forth life to those who were dead in their sins. And we thank you and praise you that you continue to bring forth life. And I pray for all those new converts that have come out of the Roman Catholic religion that they would begin abiding faithfully in your word so that they can know the truth and be set free from all the religious deception that they were indoctrinated with. Thank you, Father, that you've given them a new family, a new family of brothers and sisters in Christ. And we pray that you would encourage them this day through your spirit and your word. We give you thanks in the precious name of our Savior. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Well, our prayers this episode will help you who are coming out of Catholicism to grow stronger in the true faith. Thanks for listening to the For the Gospel podcast. To check out free resources, meet our team, or uh see more of what we offer, including articles and videos. You can go to forthegospel.org. And if you haven't already, follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter, or drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform. I'll be back next Monday with another episode you won't want to miss. For now, keep on living for the gospel.