Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on today's episode, I've asked my friend and converted Catholic and courageous evangelist back on the program, Mike Gendron number three. It's the Hattrick episode to give us wisdom on a very prevalent movement that is hitting my area as a pastor, Phoenix, the Valley, and beyond. And it's an issue that I want our audience to know about, to be equipped regarding, and then to go out and be useful salt and light out in the world. Mike Gentren, my brother, welcome back to For the Gospel.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you, Costi. It's so important what we're going to be talking about this morning because I believe the greatest attack on the Christian faith today is on the exclusivity of the gospel, which is first and foremost what we need to be contending for today.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Well, I'll tell you a quick story and then we'll get into this. We're going to be talking about the John 17 movement. Some of you are maybe familiar with that. Others say, well, what is this? I first became familiar with the John 17 movement and that concept back when I was in the prosperity gospel and hanging out with you know apostles and prophets, self-appointed ones, and people that were in the new apostolic reformation. And actually, the the hotel I always talk about from that world, the Burjal era, where we stayed in the royal seat suite for $25,000 a night, that trip actually involved a man named Tony Palmer, who was a Catholic, and he was seeking to open doors for us with the Vatican. And I remember being younger, I didn't care. I just thought, oh, whatever, this is great. There's some priest or some guy here. I didn't know what his title was or what he was up to, but he was meeting with us there. Um, he's he's died since then, he's not alive today, but his goal was to unite that. We end up at the Vatican, I go to St. Peter's Basilica, I go to Rome, I'm just enjoying the food and the tourism, and not realizing that that was a whole stream of this. Fast forward to some years later, just a few years ago, and you have the Azusa Now movement happening where at the uh LA Coliseum there, where USC plays football, they do this big event, and it's the new Apostolic Reformation people like Todd White's there, and Lou Engel, and uh, you know, one of the guys married to my cousins, Michael Culianos, they're all there, and they're kissing each other's feet, like Catholics and the priests are there, and one of them I think is speaking Italian, and they're doing this big thing where they're gonna unite the Catholic Church with Protestants, and at that time I still viewed it through the lens of oh, there goes the old charismatic sort of false unity idea, because we had Catholic charismatics now and all these different labels, and all this is just fringe stuff. There go the apostles again doing weird stuff, and that's just what they do. Well years later now, more in this era, I'm in the Phoenix area, I'm a pastor here, and the John 17 movement is growing incredibly popular, and there is now not just in fringe movements, but in Bible preaching churches, churches that claim to preach the Bible, an effort to unite with the Catholic Church under what I would call is a false guise of unity, a false form of unity. And Mike, there's nobody better pastorally, apologetically, evangelistically than you, in my humble opinion, because you were in that world. You're not speaking as some guy, you know, in the stands throwing tomatoes down onto the field. You were a devout Catholic. And so I want you to help us understand this. That's a big front-loaded intro so people know where we're coming from. We've got to have clarity on growing issues like this. So, when and why did the Roman Catholic Church start seeking to unite all professing Christians? It stopped being fringe and it started being mainstream.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a very good question. It'll take us back 500 years because even at the Reformation, the Catholic Church had the Council of Trent, which was the counter-reformation. And even then, they were saying that Martin Luther and the reformers misunderstood Roman Catholic doctrine. And so they attempted to reverse the Reformation. Well, now you fast forward 500 years, and at Vatican Council II, they issued a decree of ecumenism, and that was in 1962 to 1965. Prior to Vatican II, Roman Catholics looked upon the Protestants as heretics. But now, because they're trying to bring us back home to Rome, they say for the fullness of salvation, they're now calling us separated brethren. So 1965 is when this movement, this ecumenical movement, really started from the Catholic Church. And then you get into the 1990s, and I'm sure many of your listeners would recognize Chuck Colson, who was the co-author of Evangelicals and Catholics Together in 1994. He and Richard John Newhouse got together and they drafted this unity accord. And then there were subsequent unity accords in the 1990s. And then you had Catholics and Lutherans signing a declaration on justification in 1999. Again, you see an attempt to reverse the Reformation. And I guess the biggest one was the Manhattan Declaration in 2009. And that's when more and more highly visible, uh, highly influential evangelicals signed the Manhattan Declaration, daring to say that we share a common faith in the gospel with Roman Catholics and Orthodox. And so that's just a brief history of how the Catholic Church has been trying to bring all people, all professing Christians, under the power and influence of the papacy. And Costi, it's important to know, I think, a little bit about Roman Catholic eschatology. They don't believe that Jesus will return to the earth until the whole earth has been made Roman Catholic. And so that's why their agenda is to unite all professing Christians together. And they're using movements like the John 17 movement to blur the lines that separate Bible-believing Christians from Roman Catholics. And so I'm so glad that you're addressing this in this podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean it deserves to be noted then that in some eschatological, which is end times eschatology or eschatological viewpoints, uh a one world religion is not a good sign. I mean, I would hold that position that when you start seeing one world government, one world religion, you've got troubling issues. And I'm not surprised that a what I would believe, and I think we've proven it on this program, that in previous episodes, when you've broken down why Roman Catholicism is a false gospel and a false religion religion, I'm not surprised that the enemy would seek to use it to create a false unity. How effective has the Vatican's strategy been in its ecumenical unity movement, this attempt from the top to bring everybody together under a one-world religion of Roman Catholicism or quote unquote Christianity?
SPEAKER_01Well, they've had a lot of help from the postmodern church that exists today, because the postmodern church is denying the clarity and the authority of God's word. We see truth being suppressed in unrighteousness. Biblical commands to expose false teachers are no longer being identified from the pulpits, biblical ignorance and a lack of discernment is producing fertile ground for deception. So when you look at the evangelical church, the Protestant church today, you can see that because there's a lack of discernment that's producing fertile ground for ecumenical unity and for false teachers to come in and attempt to unite Roman Catholicism and biblical Christianity. A lot of people may not be aware, but the Vatican is a sovereign nation. It boasts of being the headquarters of God's kingdom on the earth. And it has a well-defined strategy to unite all Christians under the power and influence of the Pope. And one of the strategies is to proclaim that all roads lead to Rome. And they're looking upon the Protestants as separated brethren. Costi, they're saying that we won't have the fullness of salvation until we come back home to Rome. And what we're lacking, according to the Catholic Church, is the Eucharist. And as we've talked about in a previous podcast, the Eucharist is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches is the physical presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. The priest has the power to call him back down from heaven and then transubstantiate the wafer into his physical body and blood. So the Catholic Church is saying you need to come back to enjoy the Eucharist until you do, you won't have the fullness of salvation. Of course, my response to that is according to the scriptures, because I have repented and believed the gospel, I have the assurance of eternal life, which Catholics do not have. I have the Holy Spirit empowering me to live a life victorious in Christ Jesus. I have the complete forgiveness of sins. And according to the Catholic Church, they do not have the complete forgiveness of sin. So the Catholics are lacking the fullness of salvation. They need to exchange their religion for a relationship with Christ, and only then can they enjoy eternal, everlasting life with the Savior.
SPEAKER_00Incredible and so clear. The issue then is that it's a false gospel, it's false unity, that's not true salvation. So what what are some precursors then to the John 17 movement? Help us understand how things have gotten to where they are at this point.
SPEAKER_01Well, the Catholic Church has been very effective in seducing evangelical leaders to put their stamp of approval on the Roman Catholic religion as a valid expression of Christianity. And many people would not recognize Rick Warren as an evangelical, but he has called Pope Francis our Pope, and he's pushed the Jesuit agenda for religious unity. And he's got a lot of influence in the evangelical church. You may remember his purpose-driven book that presented a false and fatal gospel. He left out the resurrection of Christ and repentance and the righteousness of God. But yet he said, if you believe his gospel, then repeat this prayer and you're welcome to the family of God. Well, that brought so many false converts into the church. And now Rick Warren is calling for ecumenical unity. Another person that many people may be aware of is Lewis Palau. Now, Lewis Palau used to do conferences with me, and he would take our Spanish gospel tracts down to South America because he knew that the Roman Catholic Church was a huge mission field and he would take our tracks down. But since his buddy, Pope Francis, became the Pope, you know, Pope Francis is from Argentina also, and so Lewis Palau knew him. And so when he became Pope, Louis Palau said Pope Francis is a very Bible-centered and Jesus Christ-centered man. He's really centered on the pure gospel. He's a friend of evangelicals. And so a lot of people have been misled from Lewis Palau's statement. But then you have people that are more solid evangelical pastors that have really, I think, pushed the envelope toward ecumenical unity. One of them is right here in Dallas, Texas, Robert Jeffers, pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas. When Pope Benedict resigned, he was on TV stating this. The Pope was a wonderful, dedicated Christian man, and we celebrate the ministry he's had. Well, I know Robert Jeffers personally, and I immediately emailed him and said, How can you celebrate the ministry of a man who shut the gates of heaven in the faces of those who wanted to enter into it? And he emailed back and said, Mike, whenever I'm on national TV, I cannot bash Catholics. And I emailed back and said, Robert, that wasn't my question. You could have done one of three things. You could have chosen to speak the truth, which you did not, or you could have remained neutral and you chose not to do that. Or you could have misled people by telling them that the Pope was a wonderful, dedicated Christian man and we should celebrate his ministry. But then we also have Al Moeller, who's the president of Southern Seminary. He did a recent um television interview with one of the Roman Catholic cardinals, and he stated Pope Benedict was one of the most brilliant theological minds of our times. And so I emailed Al Moeller and said, How can you call a man who wrote the Catechism of the Catholic Church that diametrically opposes the gospel of Jesus Christ and therefore is under divine condemnation based on Galatians 1, 6 to 9? How can you call this man a brilliant theological mind? He's under divine condemnation. And so we have the Roman Catholic Church, their strategy is to gather evangelical leaders and highly visible, highly influential leaders to put their stamp of approval on the Roman Catholic religion. And so what this does, Costi, is it puts the Roman Catholic mission field off-limits to evangelicals because we're listening to these men and we're saying, well, if these people are right, then Catholics don't need to be evangelized. And so you see this coming together, this ecumenical unity between Rome and the evangelical church. It's a reversal of the Reformation.
SPEAKER_00It's almost another side note on this whole topic that people don't know how to be nice anymore or or still hold the line, but be loving. It's like either, you know, you get on national TV and I've been in some of those positions before, and you you just have to say it. And sometimes people will misunderstand your words, or sometimes people will say, Well, I don't agree with that part, but I agree with that part. You know, in the end, I think if you just you can say things with a smile, you don't have to be angry. Um, you could even say, I I don't we don't agree on very essential things. Um but I'm thankful for the humanitarian efforts. You know, that's that's fine. Like you could say other things. I could still respect somebody who's made in the image of God if I'm asked a question, you know. So I do think you're spot on, Mike. There's these major platforms, national news opportunities. Um, there are guys who have done great work. Like you think of Al Moeller's body of work, you go, all right, come on, Moeller. Like, if he says it, he's he's pretty logical, left-brained, cerebral, clear-headed thinker and theologian in our day. I doubt many people would be bothered if he said something strong. They would actually expect it, which that's what I even hear as you walk through those names and some of the t the uh flavors in today's culture leadership-wise in evangelicalism. It they're guys that you expect to say something a little more strong or a little more clear, because they have on so many other things, and we need to get back to that.
SPEAKER_01If I could just interject too, this really didn't surprise me about Al Moeller because he was one of the evangelicals that signed the Manhattan Declaration in 2009, some 13 years ago. And part of the statement of this Manhattan Declaration, I'll quote, we are Christians who have joined together across historic lines of ecclesial differences. And this is a uh a body of Orthodox Catholics and evangelicals saying that we've joined together across ecclesial differences. Why the Reformation? You know, if by the way, 640,000 evangelicals have now signed the Manhattan Declaration. And of course, we've urged people to take their names off of it because it really discourages evangelism. Well, the Manhattan Director's head, who by the way was a graduate of Wheaton College, his name is Eric Teetzel. When people asked to have their names removed, he sent them this statement. There are a number of ignorant, angry rabble rousers who regularly lie about us to serve their small, twisted propagandas. Some are filled with hate for those who don't comply with their version of Christianity. These fools harm and hinder the gospel. No, we're not harming and hindering the gospel. It's the signers of the Manhattan Declaration that are putting the Catholic religion off limits to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so it's really disheartening. But you can see the effect of some of these unity movements. There was a survey of a thousand senior pastors from Lifeway Research. The survey revealed that almost two-thirds of evangelical pastors say that Pope Francis is their brother in Christ. More than one-third say they value the Pope's view on theology and that he has improved their view of the Catholic Church. So I'm so glad you're addressing this because this movement, this ecumenical movement, is just spreading throughout evangelical Christianity. And we need to put a stop to it. By the way, that's why I wrote my book, Contending for the Gospel. I see so many people denying the exclusivity of the gospel. They want to make it more inclusive so they can gain a larger following of people. And it's really heartbreaking. Behind all of this, of course, is Satan. You know, he's trying to rebuild the religious tower of Babel, as we see in Genesis 11, and he's having a very effective way by seducing evangelical leaders.
SPEAKER_00So helpful. I have a question. There's a lot of partnership on things like abortion and you know other elements of humanitarian or just general efforts to stop things like that. So, you know, let's say a church is trying to build wells and you know and dig wells in Africa, or you're going out onto the street corner and you're gonna try to minister to gals who are coming into Plant Parenthood. Could you speak to the Christian who's thinking, All right, Mike, so it's f it's a good thing, it's fine that like we want whoever to be on a corner saying, don't go kill your baby. You know, that's that's good. That's just general civil virtue, human rights and love, and even though some people say human rights is letting women do whatever they want to their baby, we would say human rights is that child has a right to live. You can't do that to a baby, that you're killing innocent life. But is there a line in the sand for a Christian to go, yeah, I'm I'm I'm glad there's there's people on the other side of this driveway into Planned Parenthood saying don't do it. But do you ever want the Catholics that are over there sharing the gospel or their why? You know, how do people navigate that? This is a common question. I'm sure you get it as well. Like, okay, Mike, I get it, they're different, but shouldn't we bond on like what if we both save a woman from killing her baby? Isn't that the whole goal? We've preserved a life. It's almost you know helpful for you to go now to the next layer. That's fine, but where do we draw the line? Whose gospel gets shared? What church do they go to? Where do they end up after that? Speak to that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Yeah, if you look at all of these unity accords with Roman Catholics, that's really been the focus is to come together, Catholics and evangelicals, as co-belligerents, so that we can fight the social and moral wars that are going on. But the point here is that I would sign these accords if they left theology out, because yes, we should be co-belligerents. We should try and put a stop to abortion. I pray that our sovereign Lord would put a stop to abortion in our country. And we've seen some of the abortion mills shut down, and so God is answering prayers. But God doesn't mean us, God doesn't need us to be unequally yoked with unbelievers in order to accomplish his purpose. We look throughout the Old Testament, even in the New Testament, we see that God can use people that are totally focused on doing his work without joining hands with unbelievers. In fact, the apostle Paul even made this very clear and Oftentimes when this comes up, I have to remind people the words of Paul. He says, do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? What fellowship is light with darkness? Or what harmony is Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? And so we're explicitly told not to join hands in spiritual enterprises with unbelievers. And yet all of these evangelicals that are signing unity accords, they're being disobedient to the word of God. We can do this on our own. Why don't evangelicals come together as the body of Christ and fight these wars together? Costi, I go out to abortion mills and I'm out there for two reasons. Number one, to hopefully intercede against the women that are trying to kill their babies, but also to witness to all the Roman Catholics that are out there protesting. You know, we've got two lives to try and save here the life of the womb, but also the spiritual life of those who are protesting in the Roman Catholic religion. So we need to do that. And I encourage all Christians to do that, but don't sign an accord stating that we have a common faith in the gospel.
SPEAKER_00So well said. All right, I want to get into some of the nitty-gritty with the John 17 movement. What is wrong with their purpose statement, which says, in honoring the prayer of Jesus, we exist to inspire, develop, and display love and unity among all of those who profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. What is wrong with that statement, Mike?
SPEAKER_01Well, we have to ask the question what is the John 17 movement all about? It believes that the mission to evangelize is best served as a witness of Christian unity. I took that up right off their website. They sense that God is visiting his people with a desire for unity in the church, a unity not based on uniformity of doctrine. Well, when you look at the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus in John 17, I think we need to identify the people that Jesus is praying for unity. And in verse 6, Jesus says, You gave them to me. They have kept your word. Well, that eliminates Roman Catholicism. They haven't kept the word of God. They've displaced it as their supreme authority. They add their ungodly tradition as an authority. And so they haven't kept the word of God. Verse 11, Jesus prays, Holy Father, keep them in your name, the name which you have given me, that they may be one even as we are. And in verse 12, I guarded them and not one of them perished. You see, in Roman Catholicism, they have Catholics perishing every day in the state of mortal sin, and they go to hell. So Jesus isn't guarding them. He's not protecting them because they're not the people the Father has given to the Son. And then in verse 17, Jesus prays, Sanctify them in the truth, your word is truth. Well, the Lord Jesus has called his people out of the world, a people for his own name, and we are sanctified or set apart by the truth of the gospel and the truth of the word of God. And we also need to realize here that spiritual unity is not a work of man. Man cannot bring unity between two people spiritually. That is the Spirit of God. We're baptized by one Spirit into one body. So according to the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4, we are to maintain the unity of the Spirit. But it's the Spirit who unites all those who have been born again by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And so when you look at the John 17 movement, verse 19 and in high priestly prayer, for their sakes I sanctify myself that they themselves also may be sanctified in the truth. The Catholic Church and their members are not sanctified by the truth. They believed a false and fatal gospel. And so we need to recognize that the John 17 movement is a misinterpretation of the high priestly prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ. And so when we look at how do we contend against this type of a movement, we need to make people aware that the people that Jesus is calling for unity is the people that God the Father has given to the Son to go to the cross to die as their substitute. As I mentioned in the previous broadcast, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach penal substitution. They simply say that Jesus died for the sins of the world. They don't teach the substitutionary atonement of Christ. When the Father gave his church to the Lord Jesus Christ to go to the cross and die for, Jesus died as their substitute. He was immersed in the wrath of God so that they would not have to be immersed in it. They've been given the gift of eternal life that's based on the power and promises of God. And so the Catholic Church does not have that. They have a false and fatal gospel. They teach conditional life rather than eternal life.
SPEAKER_00Mike, that is incredibly helpful. I want everybody in our audience to understand something. The same way that most all of you would agree, that the prosperity gospel is a twisted version. It's not the gospel at all. It takes scripture, twists it, and abuses people. The same way that most all of you would agree that the new apostolic reformation, these guys going around saying they're apostles and they're using and abusing people and they're putting on crazy antics and making a mockery of the gospel is not the gospel. The same way you would affirm that and say they're twisting scripture, misinterpreting it, misapplying it. The Catholic Church is doing the exact same thing. We're just more familiar with them. They're just more mainstream. They're larger and populous. They expand across the globe culturally. But I want you to hear what Mike is saying. I want you to weigh it against Scripture. I want you to hear proper interpretation of John 17 and realize they're just a massive, and correct me on the numbers here, Mike, but Catholics globally, two billion plus, right? 1.3 billion. 1.3 billion. There's just a massive amount of them. And because we're so used to them, it's like the old adage, if you're always yelling, you're never yelling. You know, because they're everywhere, you we just sort of overlook, like, oh yeah, it's Catholics. But you know, in my area, even here in Phoenix, I pastor in Chandler, and you think, well, there's a lot of Mormon wards around. People will say, Oh, there's a lot of Mormons here. There actually isn't. There's only six percent of our population religious identity is Mormon. And you go, Well, what's what are the populist numbers? Twenty-one percent of our region is Catholic. And when I tell people that, they go, No, I don't see a lot of Catholic churches, or I don't think the Catholic Church almost sneaks under the radar. I know that sounds crazy because if you're like, what? The Pope is everywhere. It's a I mean sneaks under the radar in the sense that this is if, in my opinion, based on just sheer numbers and logic. One of, or if not the most dangerous Trojan horse in all of the world is the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that wholeheartedly. Mike, what will Jesus say to those who profess him as Lord? They boast in their works and they never departed from iniquity and their sin. Speak to us about Matthew seven, which, if I just could say one more thing, sitting with a Catholic who converted, sorry, they're not a Catholic anymore, a Christian in my church just this last week. And he said, I've always been kind of exploring different things and trying to understand, but I heard in a sermon, Matthew 7, that that passage about Jesus saying, Depart from me, I never knew you. You that would have been me. Like I I I thought all my works would save me, and he's not gonna know me. Mike, when he said that, I was in a coffee shop, almost came out of my seat. Can you speak to that reality and let that stir our hearts towards evangelism of Catholics?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Costi, because remember the John 17 movement says they want to bring unity to all those who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Well, in Matthew 7, that we just referred to, we see that there are people in verse 21 that call Jesus Lord. Jesus says, Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. And so what we have here is professors of Christ that have never been born again. They continue to believe that their works will get them into heaven, denying that justification is by faith alone. And then they also never repented. They continued in their iniquity. And so just because someone professes Christ as Lord and Savior does not mean that they are truly born again of God. We see that from the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ. And the real question here for the John 17 movement and all those who are embracing the ecumenical movement, is divine truth, is divine division and truth better than satanic unity and error? Because ultimately it's Satan who is trying to bring everyone together, all professing Christians, to rebuild this religious tower of Babel. And so there's a popular bumper sticker. If you know Jesus, you will know peace. And when there is no Jesus, there is no peace. The spirit encouraged me to come up with a corollary. If you know doctrine, you're gonna know division. And when there is no doctrine, there is no division. And so what the John 17 movement wants to do is suppress doctrinal truth so we can all come together and enjoy common fellowship. But you cannot unite unbelievers with believers. You cannot unite professing Christians, false converts with those who are born again.
SPEAKER_00Nope, not at all. I think of what Paul told Timothy when he said, Guard your life and doctrine closely, for it will preserve, literally save both those, your both yourself and those who hear you. The entire New Testament makes a big deal about life, character, that's holiness, and doctrine, our teaching. Doctrine matters. And I want to ask you this on that note. The John 17 movement states what unites us as professing Christians, we would I would put the word professing in there, what unites us as quote Christians is of far greater importance than what divides us. And so I'm gonna push back on you for sake of the discussion, Mike. Okay, I I get that doctrine matters, and I know, of course, I of course I know, you know, truth and doctrine. I mean, that's what we teach, and we we talk about the Bible, but Mike, what unites us, what unites us is far greater than what divides us, and even further, more important than what divides us. So stop majoring on the minors, stop turning molehills into mountains, Mike. Calm down. We need to be united in these truths. Speak to the person that says that.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's really interesting, and I've asked people over the last several years, can you think of anything that both unites and divides? And I've searched, and the only thing I can come up with is truth. Truth is the only thing that both unites and divides. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who talked about how we are to be sanctified by the truth. And then it's also the Lord Jesus who said, I came to divide father against son, mother against daughter. Jesus is the personification of truth. He said, My word is truth. He said, I came to testify to the truth. So if you believe the truth that is proclaimed by Christ, you are united in him. But if you deny the truth of the Lord Jesus, then you are separated from those who believe the truth. And so truth is important. In the John 17 movement, they talk about they want to unite all those who profess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I want to tell you that the Catholic Jesus is not the Jesus that is gloriously revealed in Scripture. The Jesus of the Catholic Church does not save sinners completely. That's why they need their works righteousness in order to gain entrance into heaven. The Jesus of the Catholic Church does not give the assurance of salvation. In fact, Roman Catholicism teaches that if you believe you have the assurance of salvation, you're committing the sin of presumption. The Jesus of the Catholic Church did not pay the complete punishment for sin. That's why Catholics have to go to purgatory to have their venial sins purged away. And the Jesus of Rome did not finish the work of redemption. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, the Catholic priest calls Jesus back down from heaven to be offered again on their altar, even though Jesus cried out, it is finished on the cross. And the Catholic Jesus does not redeem people from the curse of the law. Catholics must obey the law in order to get to heaven. That places them under a curse, as we see in Galatians 3. The Catholic Jesus is not the only sinless mediator. They have another sinless mediator named Mary. And the Catholic Jesus is not the only way. The Catholic catechism teaches that Muslims are part of God's plan of salvation. So, Costi, my point here is that the Catholic Jesus is an imposter. He's a counterfeit. He's not the true Jesus that is revealed in Scripture. So we cannot have unity with Catholics who trust and worship a false Christ. That is idolatry. And so, yes, doctrine does make a difference. Christology is about doctrine. The gospel is about doctrine. If you do away with doctrine, then you have nothing.
SPEAKER_00What should born-again Christians do to contend earnestly for the exclusivity of the gospel? And by exclusivity, we mean that Jesus is the only way. The gospel, the good news, is exclusive. It is not inclusive in the sense that, you know, all roads lead to heaven, and you know, Jesus is on top of a mountain, there's a bunch of trails that get up there. Just take one and he'll figure it out for you. The gospel is exclusive, and yet we evangelize all believing he will save, believing that you know the next person we share the gospel with could be the next uh great example of God's glory and his power. That's the way we have to live and evangelize. What should a Christian do right now, Mike? They're getting fired up. You've you've got clarity in front of them. What do they do with the relationships, the friendships, the family, all of it with regards to Catholicism?
SPEAKER_01Well, Costi, I would encourage them to meditate on the third verse of Jude's epistle. Contend earnestly for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints, not passively, not whenever you feel like it. There is a war going on. It's a war between God's truth and Satan's lies, and it's a war for the souls of men. If we don't maintain the exclusivity of the gospel, if it's compromised and watered down, all we're going to do is produce false converts in the church. And so we need to contend earnestly. Again, that's why I wrote the book, Contending for the Gospel. It's most important to proclaim it, but also to contend for its purity and exclusivity. What's at stake if we don't? The glory and honor of our great God and Savior, the unity of the faith? How can we have unity if we have a compromised gospel? We need to remain sanctified by the truth of God's word and the truth of his gospel. And we need to keep and protect the power, the purity, and the exclusivity of the gospel. If we compromise the gospel, there's no power to save anyone. And so, more than ever, as Satan attacks the exclusivity of the gospel through all these false teachers, we need to contend earnestly.
SPEAKER_00One more question. As a pastor and as a local pastor here in the Phoenix area where the John 17 movement uh began and has exploded, speak truth in love to the pastor that is tempted to build bridges with Catholics, or even would say, you know, whatever, that's Mike's lane, that's Costi's lane, you know, you guys want to be known for what you're against. I want to be known for what I'm for, you know, the old straw man argument, um, forgetting that when you are for the gospel, you are naturally set against all false gospels. But let's leave that one for another time. That's the statement that gets made a lot. Take a moment, speak to the pastor and the leader that is dabbling with this, or they're doing it behind the scenes and people aren't really aware, and they're sort of building bridges in the name of whatever, and the culture of ecumenical false unity is driving the bus. Speak to that man.
SPEAKER_01Well, sure. The Lord Jesus has made it clear that pastors are not only to feed the sheep the word of God, but they're also to protect the sheep from all the false teachers and false gospels and false doctrine that are being spread throughout this world. And so oftentimes pastors will do a good job on feeding the sheep, but when it comes to protecting the sheep, they don't do the job that they're called to do. There are so many wolves roaming around looking for someone to devour. And if we don't name names, if we don't contend against these ecumenical movements, then what hope does the person in the pew have? More than ever, we need to speak the truth faithfully. We need to give people the whole counsel of God. Because if the people in the pew aren't hearing the word of God, then they're not hearing truth. And if they're not hearing truth, then how can they discern what is false? We need to make sure that you as a pastor are doing what you're called to do. Make sure your gospel is exclusive. Make sure you're not uniting with unbelievers, even though we can be co-belligerents. We can go out on our own and we can fight the social wars, but do not hold hands with unbelievers to do that. God doesn't need unbelievers. He can use those who are dedicated to trust in him and his power to accomplish his purpose on this earth.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Let it be. My prayer is that this episode will help you who are thinking through unity, the gospel, Catholicism, church leadership, the John 17 movement, all of it to have a greater understanding of why the gospel is exclusive and why Roman Catholicism is a false gospel, and we don't just sit on the sidelines throwing stones. You need to evangelize, you need to share the gospel, you need to build bridges for conversation in order to have evangelistic opportunities, not build bridges of false unity. Mike, where can our audience engage your material, know more about you? Um I want to put your book somewhere prominent. We're gonna uh have it at our church. We do a giveaway resource table every month. I'm gonna give some copies away and get that in people's hands. Where can they know more about all that you're doing to reach Catholics and equip Christians?
SPEAKER_01Well, we have a very active website, proclaiming thegospel.org. A lot of articles that I've written over the last 32 years and a lot of videos and audios. And we just want to equip and encourage the body of Christ to be effective and faithful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ. We have seven different gospel tracts. Three of them are dedicated to reaching Roman Catholics and four others. Um, make sure the gospel is purely presented. And we also have um a set of gospel cards. If you want to go deeper into the gospel, we have the 12 most important words of the gospel that are defined and explained with four bullet points on the back of each card. So we're here just to encourage you. Uh give us a call at our ministry phone. It's 817-379-5300. We're here to help the body of Christ. So anything we can do to encourage you in that direction, please do so.
SPEAKER_00Praise God. Well, I can't wait to see you again, brother. Can't wait to have you back. And I know we'll continue to partner together to put out resources and reach souls. Love you, man. Keep it up.
SPEAKER_01Love you too. Let's pray for one another, Costi.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. Amen. Well, thank you all for listening to the Furthe Gospel podcast. To check out free resources, uh, learn more about our team, listen to other episodes, or watch video resources, go to furthegospel.org or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you haven't already, follow us on social media. We put a lot of gospel material out there for you to learn, grow, and share. We're on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. And we will be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.