Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on today's episode, I want to answer a really important question that a lot of you have been asking. The question is: are there still apostles today? Are there still apostles today? It's all too common now because movements like Bethel, the massive movement called The Send, which is doing conferences all over the world, including America and South America, and leaders like Lou Engel, Todd White, Bill Johnson, and others say that there are apostles today. They have believed this and taught this for decades now. And the idea that there are apostles today comes from C. Peter Wagner, prominently, who in 2004 said that God told him back in 2001 that the apostolic era was going to begin again and that there would be apostles once more. That's what C. Peter Wagner said. It's documented that he said that. And this, of course, is dangerous because if he can claim revelation from God to begin a new era of apostleship, then anybody can claim anything they want and just say God told them. This is what Oral Roberts did back in the day when he said that people needed to give millions of dollars or that God would kill him. Anyone could say anything crazy and then just say, God told me, you should all believe it and do it. The plain truth is you need answers to this doctrinal issue. I need answers to this doctrinal issue because it's prevalent. It's not fringe, it's not weird, and it's not rare to hear people claim that they are an apostle or that their leader is an apostle. Maybe you're confused by this, maybe you're not, but here would be my challenge to those of you who say, ah, there's no apostles today. I'm good with that. I don't need to worry about it. Can you answer the question biblically? You are going to be challenged in our generation, time and time and time again. Oh, you don't believe that there's apostles? Well, I know they've done some crazy things up there at Bethel, or I know so-and-so has said this and done this, but you know, why couldn't there be apostles today? Or why don't you think there are apostles today? Christian, you need to be ready to give a biblical response to that question. And I will put that together for you in this episode so that you could be equipped, or if you've never really thought about this, now you can learn. First, to be fair, I want to play a clip from Bethel. So we approach the issue with fairness. I also am going to play several more clips from this particular YouTube video from the Rediscover Bethel series. This one is about five-fold ministry, and the title of it is Is Bill Johnson an apostle? And so we're going to get Bill Johnson's own words on this. I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm not twisting what he said in any way, shape, or form. And so you know up front, I do not agree at all with his take on this. I don't agree with him on theology in the sense of the gospel and what he preaches about signs and wonders and the way they go about saying ministry is to be, and that the gospel is attached to miracles, and it without miracles there is no gospel. He said that time and time again. But I want to be fair. Now he doesn't claim to be a part of the new apostolic reformation, and so I'm not going to accuse him of that or say he is, but of course many of his friends are, and he'll say that in this clip that he supports what they're doing and agrees with them and believes that there are apostles today and that he is one. And that'll be made clear as we listen to several more clips. But first and foremost, let's start with a clip from early on in the video that explains that they support the teaching that there are apostles today, and then what they're trying to accomplish overall. Go ahead and listen to this clip.
SPEAKER_00Got a chance to touch on some of this with Chris. But uh some folks think that we're part of NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation. And it was a title I hadn't heard about until somebody thought we were a part of it. And so it's it's you know kind of interesting. Where are you in uh that discussion?
SPEAKER_01I don't uh I didn't even know what it was uh until not too long ago. Somebody asked me if I belonged, and I asked, well, what is that? So I I don't uh we don't belong to anything uh of that nature. But we heartily agree with um many of the things that some of our of our friends in different organizations are really pursuing, just trying to become authentically biblical and fully living out what is in in Scripture. And sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't, but we're on that journey of uh trying to explore what God has laid before us. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think part of it is in do it in tandem with the rest of the body of Christ. I would even say the Catholic and the Orthodox Church and with I guess there's 33,000, I think, denominations, Protestant denominations or something like that. So like we're trying to walk with all of those guys. There's a lot of apostles there. I don't know. But um so we're trying to do it uh not as the way, but as just part of the Lord's team as he's bringing the good news, the message to the earth. And so part of that, just can you talk about the five-fold ministry and how you see it? Is it is it for today? Oh, yeah. Uh how do you you know understand your own role in that?
SPEAKER_02So a few bullet point thoughts here. First, did you catch that they believe Catholics are on the same team as Christians? We're on the same team, they call the Lord's team, and that Catholics are in the faith and Orthodox, and we're just trying to all figure this out together. So there's that. That's problematic. Uh, there also are a few things that maybe don't sound problematic to the undiscerning ear. The fivefold ministry he's referring to, or what some would call offices, are the gifts laid out in Ephesians 4. They believe that's for today. So let's make sure we're hearing that. And then the idea being that since we have not all matured in the faith, as Ephesians 4 describes, the purpose of church leadership being given is to accomplish that, then there are still apostles today to help accomplish that. Now, besides the statement about Catholics being in the same faith as Christians, which is blatantly problematic, and we've proven that in the last few episodes, all in all, if you don't know the word or think biblically, it can seem like a pretty decent argument being made. I want you to listen to one more clip to add more context. It's two minutes long, and it describes how Bill Johnson came about being an apostle or being called one by people, then how he responded. And here's what I want you to do. Listen carefully and think about how biblical apostles referred to themselves. That's a key question. And then another one. So listen to this. It's about two minutes long. I'll offer some commentary, and then there's one more clip I want to break down for you, and then we'll jump into what scripture says. I really want you to have a good understanding. Listen to this.
SPEAKER_00Well, you were called a pastor when you first came here because coming out of the assemblies of God denomination. So but I mean, you're you've got some pastoral, but maybe not maybe not a ton of pastoral. What are you trying to tell me? I'm not even talking about counseling about how not great you were at it, but I was here when we were on this journey, when people started calling you an apostle. I remember you being super uncomfortable with it. It wasn't a title you put you grab for yourself. Just coming to terms with like, do we even do this? What are the implications? Can you do you mind talking some about your own personal journey about how you let people call you that? And what that's or what do you want to say?
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus, Jr. I uh I've believed in five-fold ministry, as we call it, for as long as I can remember. Certainly 40, 45 years ago, I had no problem with it. But when you're called a specific title that makes you uncomfortable, I don't review it theologically, I just review it as, you know, I I that I don't like it. You know, I I I I it it makes me feel real uncomfortable. And uh and they're trying to honor. And so what I've what I've been learning to do is uh is allow people to address me in a way that's most comfortable for them. But whenever they ask me, what do you want to be called? I mean, I have this when I go to other churches or conferences, they say, Do you want to be called apostle bill? Do you want to be called pastor bill? Oh well, it's it's true. And they're just all they're trying to do is just is honor and respect whatever tradition I come from. And I tell them every time I say, you know, I just I prefer you just call me Bill. And sometimes they can't do that until I let them run with whatever title, but that's not the point. The point is just uh is that we have that kind of a respect and a value for one another, and I don't mind calling, you know, somebody else an apostle or a prophet or a pastor or whatever. I I do that all the time. We have friends that uh they go by the title bishop and uh and I I honor them with that absolutely with that title. It's it's in the Bible, you know. Yeah. So that that's my approach.
SPEAKER_02So some recap thoughts here. One, you heard it, he came to be called an apostle by people and lets them call him that if they want to. Uh he said he was super uncomfortable with it. There was, you know, his his co-host there saying, you know, do we do this? You know, all that. And then he says he's believed in five-fold ministry for 45 years. And then I've quoted him as saying, but when you're called a specific title, that makes you uncomfortable. You know, I don't review it theologically, he said. I just review it as, you know, and then there's a pause. He says, I don't like it. It makes me uncomfortable. They're just trying to honor. So he says that. And then there there seems to be some humility in that he just wants to be called Bill. Um you know, that's great, though some can't just call him Bill, he says. And then he finishes by saying, It's all about respect, it's all about honor, and but he is an apostle. And first I would like to propose if you're an apostle, you do review what you are called theologically. Uh Paul the Apostle reviewed the fact that he was an apostle theologically. The word theology, theos in the Greek God, and theology logic, God logic, the knowledge of God. Look, if you are an apostle and people are calling you an apostle, or they're calling you anything in church leadership, you must review it theologically. It doesn't matter if you don't like it or it makes you uncomfortable, it doesn't matter if people are trying to honor. You have to stick to scripture if that's your objective authority. You, especially if you claim to be an apostle, have to submit to God who through Christ is head of the church. Well, then you better review it theologically. And so there's an important note there as he just sort of punts a lot on these things. I want to play for you the last section of the video towards the end. There's a couple of minutes that I won't be able to put in there just because it's just round and round and round they go. It doesn't really edify or matter for this topic. You're welcome to listen to the video though in its entirety. It's about 11 minutes long on YouTube. And I'll put the link in the description of this podcast. We're not painting a picture that's not charitable or fair. But let's break this down. Listen to this.
SPEAKER_00But I I digress. You were going to talk about it. What what are the marks of an apostle? How do you what makes a unique? Do you want do you not want to talk about this? You just rolled your eyes.
SPEAKER_01No, it doesn't want to be. It's just a it's a huge, it's a bigger subject than we have for this. But and Chris carries really a great, great clarity on this more than I do, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so when asked more directly, he says, look, this is a bigger topic than we have time for, though I would say it's easy to explain in just a few verses. We're going to do that shortly. Then he punts to Chris Valaton, that's who Chris is, and he's the prophet at Bethel. He says he carries more clarity than I do on this. I shouldn't an apostle know what they are and how to explain it from Scripture? Well, maybe he'll do that next. So let's keep listening.
SPEAKER_01But uh the way I look at the apostolic gift, the apostolic calling, is that both the apostle and the prophet have a their position gives them a perception of heaven and how it's to affect earth. It's a culturizing role. It's not that the prophet is more spiritual than the evangelist who is all about souls. It has nothing to do with who's more spiritual. It has to do with perception. Yeah. It has to do with impact.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so he doesn't say anything from scripture still, and then he says it has to do with perception, and it has to do with impact. I don't know what any of that means, but again, I'm thinking, what about scripture, Bill? Give me some scripture. Are you an apostle? Are there apostles today? Give me a little more than, well, Ephesians 4, and then you know, here's this, this, that, and the other about impact and perception. So let's keep waiting, though. Maybe he'll drop some heat from the book in the next clip. Listen to this.
SPEAKER_01Is moved by the needs of the sheep, as he should be. You don't want him dreaming about, you know, a hundred years down the road, and and you you want him caring uh for the flock. And so he has he's got a perception on the here and now, the pain of this person, the success of this one. Yes. And that's a gift that God's given him. It's a position of per perception. Yeah. Where the apostle and the prophet tend to see more future type things. Uh uh wisdom enables us to see uh structure, order. Uh uh these steps brings about this result. And and again, it's not a more spiritual position, I don't believe. I I don't think it's a hierarchy. But it's uh it's like you stand here, tell us what you see. Yeah. You stand here, tell us what so the pastor says, Well, I see these people are hurting. The apostle says, Well, I see this is what God is building into the earth. It's not a competition. It's together we bring the whole picture. And I just think it's necessary and beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so at this point, we've got nothing really from Scripture, just a sort of business model where different guys see different things. I I think of our pastoral team at our church, Shepherd's House Bible Church, and a lot of other churches, friends of mine who pastor churches, our contributor churches. And I think, man, I I don't believe in apostles, but we have a variety of different gifts and perceptions too. We're not apostles by biblical definition, and we have lots of different views on things and different gifts and the balance in the room because different leaders have a different wiring, different experience, different giftedness. The body has that. So again, though, lots of ethereal terms here, like perception and culture. He threw culture around a lot, and and then there's a human definition. He says, pastors, you know, they focus on on the needs of the people, but you don't want them dreaming about the future. I don't even know what that means. But it reminds me of back in the day when I was in the prosperity gospel and this this world of the word of faith movement and extreme charismatic circles. There was a lot of you know, downcast looking on pastors or on guys who are worried about the state of the flock, like ah, that's small time. And I know Bill was careful not to create a hierarchy. I think that was good of him to do that, and he's more careful than his predecessors. But where in the Bible is there some definition that, you know, pastors are are focused on the menial little things, you know, the flock has needs, and apostles are dreaming about the future. That's a false dichotomy. And then he says apostles and prophets see the future. Well, I would challenge that. Chris Vallaton, their own prophet, got the Trump presidency so wrong he predicted Trump was going to get a second term that he had to publicly apologize and mitigate. But he's not the first either. And this isn't the only record of Bethel getting prophecy and predictions and even healings and signs and wonders and even so-called miracles wrong and even being found to be false in their claims. Claims like this are a dime a dozen. Ambiguous concepts and vague statements make a lot of these leaders sound smart. But if you're one of our regular listeners, you know this by now. What's our final authority? Scripture is our final authority. So are there still apostles today, and can you be an apostle? I would propose we go to scripture, not Bill's feelings or thoughts, not ambiguous terms about culture and perception and what they think this guy or that guy should do, but truly from Scripture. No, they are not. Apostles are not still around on the earth, and no, you can't be one. Let me give you three reasons why from the Bible. First, apostles were the foundation of the church. That is so clear in Ephesians 2, 19 to 22. It says, You are no longer foreigners but strangers and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household. Built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is being joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord, and in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his spirit. In that passage, the apostle Paul is explaining to the Ephesians how they're being built up as the church. The apostles and the prophets are the foundation and Christ is the chief cornerstone. And that the church is built up on that. Now, Bill Johnson and others will say, Well, nowhere does it say that you know apostleship has ceased and this that has ceased. I mean, you look at Ephesians 4, they're all right there. I mean, those are still active in the church today. We haven't all gained maturity in the faith. Well, they're separating the early church from the church now in a very, very erroneous way. They're looking at it as though the apostles and the prophets are still needed today because we're still building and building and building and rebuilding and this and that. If you look at the early church as part of what we are in now, for example, we had apostles. Their names were Paul and Peter and Andrew, James, and John. They were a part of the foundation of the church. And guess what is still being built up today through pastors and teachers and evangelists? The church. You don't relay a foundation. We don't need apostles today, because we don't need to relay the foundation. We don't need prophets today. We have a prophetic word more sure in the scriptures. We don't need Bill Johnson, and we don't need Chris Vallaton, and we don't need many others who claim to be apostles. First of all, we're gonna get to why they aren't apostles because they can't even do the real signs of an apostle, but just on the basic level that all those offices are still for today. If if Paul the Apostle said apostles were foundational, what house that Jesus is building perfectly has to have another foundation laid. Do we need another cornerstone then too? Does the church ever get torn down like an old house and renovated and rebuilt? No. Likewise, there are no new apostles today. The foundation was laid, and when you're looking at the book of Ephesians, you're looking at the whole picture that we had apostles and prophets laying the foundation, and now we are continuing that. You don't separate them and try to remake an apostolic era, you keep them together. We are in the post-cross era, the era of grace, the church is being built up, and the apostles and prophets were foundational to that, Christ as the cornerstone. Number two, apostles were eyewitnesses to Christ. That was one of the criteria for apostles. Acts chapter one, verses twenty-one and twenty-two gives us evidence of this, how the early church viewed apostleship. Remember when the apostles were going to replace Judas as the twelfth apostle because he had killed himself after betraying Christ. In the passage there, in Acts chapter one, verses twenty-one and twenty-two, Peter says this it is necessary that of all the men that of all the men who have accompanied us all the time, that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day that he was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection. What does he mean by that? Well, one of those people, those men who were eyewitnesses to Christ, he must now become a witness with us of his resurrection. The apostles were early church witnesses of the true resurrection. They were eyewitnesses to Christ. They had been with him, they were verified by him, and now the apostles themselves were raising up another from among their ranks to then replace Judas. That is in a sense a criteria. You can't just go and become an apostle today. You weren't an eyewitness of Christ. You weren't appointed, and there's no apostolic succession. Even the early church fathers who were disciples of the actual disciples, in many cases, like you think of like Polycarp, who is a disciple of John, he was not an apostle. It's what the Catholic Church gets wrong. They believe in apostolic succession as the Pope and the Pope and the next Pope and the next Pope are all in a long line of apostolic successors to Peter. You had to be an Eyewitness of Christ. And you think, well, what about Paul? Paul was visited by Christ himself and called as an apostle by Christ Himself. It was a supernatural moment. And then he went before the other apostles, if you remember, in Jerusalem and elsewhere, and he was verified. In fact, the churches were so scared of him for a long time because they were wondering, isn't this the guy who used to persecute us? And then he was verified. And Peter, he gave credence to Paul's apostleship. And so we know that. No one else can be an apostle today. They were eyewitnesses to Christ. Well, what if someone says they're an apostle today? Well, Jesus came and told me like Paul. I'm just like Paul. He came and told me I'm an apostle. Well, then number three, better be happening. And it's not. This is verifiable. Apostles did impossible signs and wonders. In 2 Corinthians 12 12, Paul tells the church that the signs of a true apostle had been done among them through signs, wonders, and miracles. Now, I know already, some of you are going to think, well, Bethel claims this, Bethel claims that. I know a guy who knew a guy that I heard about this, or I've seen some stuff, man. People will say that to me all the time. I get it. You might see some supernatural things, some non-normative things. You might hear a story. The Bible's not talking about anything that someone claims, you know, I think I saw, I might have it, it's talking about verifiable signs. What sort of signs and wonders did Paul perform? Does the Bible record them? Very clearly and very objectively it does. In Acts 13, 11, he commands blindness to come upon a man to showcase his power as an apostle. I dare, Bethel or anyone else claiming to be apostles, to command blindness on someone to show your power. Command something to happen to the wicked. Command things to happen in the spirit realm, as they call it, that showcase their authority over the supernatural. Can't do it. Acts 14, verse 10, Paul commands a man who had been lame from birth. Stand up on your feet is the command he gives them. The man jumps up and begins to walk. I have dozens of stories from people who said they went to Bethel, Reading, they went to my uncle's services, and they got healed, they were walking around fine, and they still walk with a limp, or other people that say, I felt like something was happening to me there, and the pain was gone, and then after it came back. That's not at all what biblical miracles look like. They speak but a phrase. Stand up on your feet, rise and walk, and people are healed. But it doesn't stop there. Acts 16, 18. We see demons commanded to come out in one moment. Not three hour exorcisms, not services with music, not walking around chanting phrases. No, in simply a command, the demons flee. Acts 19, 11, and 12, miracles are happening through Paul, so that even aprons and handkerchiefs were being used to heal people. Yes, I know we've all seen, if you haven't, there's this guy used to be on late night television called Peter Popoff, and he would have miracle spring water that you could give a donation and order. And the miracle spring water would give you a raise at work or random money in your mailbox or a healing. I remember at one point at our church growing up, we went through a holy water era where an apostle came and said there's an anointing on this church for water. People went out and bought bottled water by the caseload and put it on the stage, and for months after we were praying for water bottles and then giving them to people to go get healed. Nothing came of that but lunacy, and no one was verifiably healed. But man, did it make for some great marketing. In Acts 20, verses 10 to 12, it's not aprons and handkerchiefs, it's not even casting out demons, it's not a stand up your feet, now you can walk, it's not even blindness. Brothers and sisters, Paul raises Eudicus from the dead. Now, if you would ever say you are an apostle, or you want to make an argument for apostles today, show the dead being raised. Apostles could do things no modern day faith healers could pull off. The apostolic signs were for the establishing of their authority. Everybody knew they were an apostle. Nobody questioned that they had been with Jesus and nobody questioned their power. No one said, Oh, this is fake. It was so real. The people at the time were getting angry because they were pagans. They hated the fact that these guys could do this stuff. We don't hate the fact that people could heal. If Bethel could heal today, I'm not going to hate that. If there were real apostles raising the dead, I want to be in the front row cheerleading saying glory to God. Apostles wielded the power of Christ, having just been with Christ. So are there apostles today? No. Again, we don't need them. If anybody claims to be an apostle today, Bill Johnson's standard is, according to his words, just that they can see the future, they're culture creators. Well, so why aren't they predicting the future then at the very least? If not, raising the dead. They've had prophets and apostles for years, but didn't see COVID. They didn't see presidencies. They didn't see war. They didn't go to the Ukraine and Russia to unite them in peace with prophetic predictions. They didn't unite the Catholic Church and see the molesting of countless little boys by Catholic priests. They didn't see that. Where were they? They didn't raise a sweet little girl from the dead who was a part of their own team, the sweet little girl named Olive. They haven't ended anything in Reading. There's still crime. There's still abortion rampant. California is insane. No offense to you amazing Christians that are still there. In fact, I don't think you're offended. You are missionaries there now. Don't leave, unless God's really calling you somewhere. You need to stay and stand. But the locals in Reading, they call Bethel their supernatural school of ministry, Bill Johnson and like Hugwarts, the school for wizards and witches in Harry Potter. They are not turning the culture upside down. They are not doing the signs of an apostle. They have created a bubble and a really good system for making money and luring in the next generation to try and come and be powerful because everybody wants supernatural power to build a platform and be a somebody. And really what they're looking for is purpose. The church has lost its way because we've lost our commitment to the authority and sufficiency of Scripture. And when the Bible is not enough, you got to go to crazy places to try to get crazy power so you can live some purpose. Really, you're lost. You need to go back to the sufficiency of Scripture, that Jesus is enough and his word is enough. Come hell or high water. That he is everything. And that you have answers because you wield the sword of the Spirit. We get mocked, we're beaten, we're fools for Christ. You know, look at Costi and for the gospel and all these people calling us heretics or blasphemers or false apostles. Yeah, all that stuff. We're just like Paul. I used to say the same thing when I was in that world. And then you realize that you're not at all like Paul. You're not at all like Peter. And no, you're not being mocked or beaten or being made to be a fool for Christ because of doing the works of Christ. Those apostles were healing. They were miraculously raising the dead. They were verifiably turning cities upside down. And those who hated them and mocked them were hating on them and mocking them because those apostles, truans, were ruining their lives as pagans. They were upending their idol making businesses like Paul did in the book of Acts and so many others. The pagans hated them. The unbeliever hated them. If Bethel and modern-day apostles and prophets were biblical, faithful, accurate, and really doing genuine signs and wonders, we'd be behind them 100% because you could verify it. True works do not ruin lives, friends. Nobody just wants to reign on the parade of the genuinely supernatural work of God. I believe that the claim of modern day apostleship is either classic deception or blind ignorance. They are either deceiving people knowingly, or they are ignorantly blind and well-intentioned and just trying to do their best to figure it all out. Real apostles and prophets establish the foundation of the church, and now we go out and we proclaim the gospel as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. I hope this is a helpful breakdown. I know it's a deep breakdown, but be discerning, Christian. When there are claims, look at God's word. Do not look to the ambiguous arguments of men. My prayers this episode will help you discern more biblically. And whether well-intentioned or intentional deception, you can walk securely, stick to the word, proclaim Jesus to the world, and disciple others and live for the glory of God. Thanks for listening to the For the Gospel Podcast. To check out free resources, uh, watch a series on marriage or dating or numerous other doctrinal topics, go to our website forthegospel.org, subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to this podcast, and check us out on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. We drop videos every single week, as well as the podcast and quotes and blog articles that you can learn from and grow from and then share with other people and use in your churches. If you're a pastor, I want you to know I love you, man, and we are with you and behind you. And I pray that this ministry only serves to bless your people further while they're out there all week using media, and that we can come and get your back and stand with you as a partner in ministry. But we'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.