Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we're all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn. Before we jump into today's episode, I want to bring attention to one of FTG's latest free resources. It is, in my opinion, one of the best single-page feature resources on Roman Catholicism that I have ever found online. Yeah, I know I'm biased because it's our team, but I know the work they put into this and it came out incredible. It's part of our brand new feature series called Truth and Love, where we bring in experts to answer the biggest questions about false religions. Well, we started with Roman Catholicism and it's launched. If you go to forthegospel.org and you hover over our media and you go to watch, you'll see it right there. It's a dedicated page, 40 plus videos, podcasts, and articles. The videos are short, they're clear, they're biblical, they answer the hottest questions that you may be wondering about when it comes to Roman Catholicism and also things you want to be loaded up on with truth so you can reach other people. And then as well, we're trying to evangelize Roman Catholics. And so when they, like so many of us, go looking for answers, led of course by the Holy Spirit, perhaps they are being regenerated, they are being made new, they're being saved and drawn. Well, they're going to binge watch. And so we wanted to make the videos very accessible, super creative and clean, high excellence factor, as we aim for, as you know, if you've been following our ministry for a while, and these are going to equip you and bless you to be able to share the truth with Roman Catholics. We've got Islam, Mormonism, and the NAR, New Apostolic Reformation, all in the works because of your great support. So thank you for partnering with us and thank you for sharing these resources. Today I want to cover one of the most important questions in our current church culture. Is it biblical for women to be pastors or we could say elders? It's a controversial topic. Our ministry gets asked about it consistently. So I want to provide a clear biblical answer for you, our faithful listeners. It tends to incite debate, but my encouragement is for Christians on all sides to think biblically rather than emotionally or even culturally. Let's just let the text speak. Our goal is always and should be always to engage scripture and present truths as best as we can and steer clear of character assaults. We want to make logical arguments with generous doses of grace, if you will. So let me read you the passage and really two passages that tend to get controversial. They are where we get the idea that only men can be pastors or elders in Scripture. They're also the passages that egalitarians have to deal with, which is egalitarians are those who believe women can be pastors or elders. They have to deal with these passages, so it's best that we cross this bridge regardless. And you have to, if we're talking about women and pastoral ministry. The first passage is 1 Timothy 2, 11 and 12. In the context, Paul is laying out some groundwork for when the church assembles together. He is about to in chapter 3 lay out the qualifications for elders, and first he says, a woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. And he says, But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet. The second passage that incites debate or has to be dealt with is first Timothy three, one through three, shortly after his statement about teaching and exercising authority over men. He says it's a trustworthy statement. If any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer then must be above reproach, and then one of the qualifications he lists comes next, the husband of one wife. So, complementarians, which is what I hold to and what our ministry holds to. Maybe you're not there, but I still want to define the position clearly. A complementarian says that God designed men and women to complement one another, which means we both fulfill unique roles. We're equal spiritually. God doesn't have any second class citizens in that regard. However, men play a role, women play a role, and God has assignments for each gender. That is, we complement one another. So complementarianism. Egalitarianism would hold the position that all of those things are no more, or they can be explained away, and that women can do all the same things men can do, and there's no limits on that. So let's deal with it because scholars have weighed in on both sides. You have feminists exploding with outrage in the culture. A lot of churches are divided over the question. Some people just don't want to touch it at all. So let's do it. Is it biblical for women to be pastors and or elders? Now we need to deal with some terminology first. The word elder. You see it in scripture. It's the Greek word presbyteros. You also see the word episcopas in the Greek New Testament. You'll see poimin for shepherd, the verb form, and it is to be to be shepherding when Peter says in 1 Peter 5 1 through 4, shepherd the flock of God among you. Those terms elder, overseer, pastor, shepherd, all of those are used fairly interchangeably in the New Testament. That's why we view our church leaders, generally speaking, all in the same way. Pastors, elders, overseers, bishops, if you will. These are the leaders who hold an authoritative role in the church. They are not deacons, they are not just some lay leaders. They are those who function as primary teachers and authoritative leaders in the church. So here are, you know, three things that I want to make clear off the bat. When you let the Bible speak authoritatively across all ages, this is my argument. Three things are clear. Number one, women are esteemed co-laborers in the faith who share the gospel in many contexts. Nobody is saying that women don't evangelize. Nobody is saying that women don't partner in the ministry and do significant things for the glory of God. That's crazy to say it's absolutely true that women are our spiritual equals. They are. And we play a role together. They are our co-laborers. So all sides need to agree there. Number two, men and women are both used by God in powerful ways. Nobody can argue otherwise. That's crazy. If anybody says that, you know, God doesn't use women in powerful ways, they've taken the complementarian thing way too far. Third, I argue that only qualified men can function as pastors and elders. This isn't male dominance for the male gender. This isn't every man. It's qualified men, specifically character-gifted, teaching able men. Now, by the end of this episode, I will tell you those three truths are going to be argued for. I'm going to use scripture. I want to be fair and I want to cover some ground so that even if you're an egalitarian, you could say, well, he's been fair. Even if you don't agree with me, I want to argue from scripture and try to deal with as many egalitarian arguments as possible. So the the words that start the war. You know, it's it's it's not really that Paul penned these words that starts the hot debate. Egalitarians, they take Paul seriously when he says it. They just have a way of explaining it away or interpreting those words that he says. The words that really start the war is to say, well, this is a command for all time. Women cannot be pastors now or then. Women could not be elders then or now. You know, for an egalitarian, they'll accept Paul's words were were true, but they were only directed at Ephesus because of the local feministic culture. Or they'll say, Yeah, Paul's words are true, but they were due to the lack of education opportunities for women that they couldn't be elders. Or Paul's words were referencing women who were using authority negatively. So they would accept that Paul says it. The words that start the war again are that women cannot be pastors or elders forever. The words that start the war are Paul was laying down a timeless principle for church leadership across all ages, not just at Ephesus. The words that start the war are regardless of educational opportunities then and now, Paul was not worried about education. He was rooting a position as a timeless principle. Is there a biblical foundation for holding that position? I believe there is. First, what was the context of Paul's words? Well, his words are set against the backdrop of a charge given to the elders when Paul departs from them in Acts 20, verse 28, he leaves the elders at Ephesus in charge. He says, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood. You could basically summarize the letters of first and second Timothy like this. The context surrounding Paul's words on women fall under that contextual umbrella. He wanted the church instructed for its own health. He cared for Timothy, he wanted him to establish things properly and biblically, he cared for the flock at Ephesus. Paul had spent a great deal of time teaching them. They loved him, he loved them, and he's giving them clear structure for how to faithfully lead the church. The original audience at that time would have understood all of this. The framework for men and women was made clear in First Timothy within church worship. He first explains in chapter two, verse one that there's to be prayer for all men. So now we're into what people do when they gather together and what should be happening. And it includes government and wanting people to be converted. He goes on to explain that the men should be unified in their holiness. There should be prayer from a pure heart and without contention in chapter two, verse eight. He is telling Timothy across the board and all who would hear the letter to fight the good fight. Keep the faith, be faithful, worship the right way. There were false teachers, there were threats, there was disunity, and Paul knew the best way to bring down the church, which would be, of course, Satan's strategy, is to divide it from within. He gives commands to women to dress modestly, which is chapter two, verse nine, to be known for their good deeds and their godliness more than flaunting all their looks, chapter two, verse ten. And then to quietly receive instruction in submission to male teachers, only qualified ones, in the church, chapter two, there, verse eleven. And those particular leaders would be first Timothy three, one through seven, qualified. So the whole church is given this beautiful picture of how it is to operate. Now, Paul doesn't just say this about Ephesus and not pull in any other authoritative sources. He uses the Genesis account. He doubles down on his reasoning behind his own command, stating in chapter two, verses thirteen and fourteen that it was Adam who was created first, so he he links it to the created order, not just, hey, women aren't educated, hey, this is just for Ephesus. He says it was Eve who was deceived first, not Adam. And Adam who was created first, not Eve. And then he ends with an encouraging note that women will still have influence over the next generation, though not by being the authoritative leaders of the church, but by rearing godly children, and while not holding authority over men in the church, they do hold authority over raising men up in the church, if you will, raising their own young children, their boys in their homes, and pouring into them and raising young men who will eventually step up to lead the church. It's a powerful ecosystem of God's order. Now, for those who would say, well, it's just, you know, Ephesus, well, you've got another list in Titus I. Titus I five through nine also lays out qualifications for elders, and Titus was left on Crete. So it's not just about Ephesus, you always have you also have Crete, and and then you do have other teaching about male headship in other letters, like the letters to Corinth. So let me give you a quick rundown of what the New Testament teaches about male headship, so we can move from just a little argument over Ephesus and what Paul says about women pastors or elders to a general design that God has given. There are two spheres in which God has given men authority or called them to headship. God's design is for men to lead with the right kind of faithful authority, to use that authority and model after Christ in the home and in the church. Some of you men listening to this, you need to be reminded that if you were a bivocational pastor and you were preaching in the church and leading the church, that a woman in your congregation would have to be submissive to you, of course, as long as you're leading from scripture. But if you worked for a company and she was the CEO and you were bivocational, on Monday, you walk into that office and she tells you what to do for your job, you would say, Yes, ma'am, or you might even say yes, sister, because you are a pastor at her local church. You're not operating within the church. You're in corporate America. God has not said in corporate America only men can be CEOs. God has not reached into that sphere and given some clear command. Chauvinists will say he has. Yeah, they'll say stuff like that, but no way. In the church and in the home are the two places in which God has called for male only leadership. This is why a lot of egalitarians they use Deborah, the Old Testament judge, as an argument for women being pastors. That's a wrong argument. If anything, you could use Deborah as an argument for women being involved in politics and government leadership. That is not a sphere in which God has said men only. Otherwise, forget Queen Esther and forget Deborah altogether and all the other queens in the Bible. So it's very, very important to keep our heads and wits about us. This is talking about the church and the home. Where does the New Testament teach male headship? What does it teach about male headship? Well, first Timothy 3 1 through 3, pastor elders are to be men, the husband of one wife. 1 Corinthians 11, verse 3, Christ is the head is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman. 1 Corinthians 11 verse 2, Paul says, Hold firm to the traditions you've been taught, and he's referring to church order. 1 Corinthians 11 16, he says this is what's practiced by the churches. Hebrews 13 17, the author of Hebrews says, to obey your leaders and submit to them. So the leaders being the qualified elders, the church leaders, they're to be submitted to so long as they lead from scripture. We're always clear about that for the gospel. Don't you dare ever follow a church leader into sin. You don't have to at all. Yes, there's nothing wrong with a woman like Priscilla, and of course her husband was involved too, but even if it was just her encouraging Apollos in his teaching on baptism, she wasn't taking some grandiose, authoritative position over him. She wasn't speaking up publicly and commanding him from a pulpit or even from the elder role. Just like many people encourage one another in the Lord, she was encouraging this eloquent, faithful leader in his teaching, in his gifting, in his ministry. That's not to be discouraged. There have been many times in which godly older women have encouraged me, even younger women, spurring us along. There's times where my own wife will come to me and have questions or have encouragements regarding a sermon, areas that I could improve. Is she taking authority over me? Not at all. She's being a faithful sister in Christ. That's the whole idea of them being our co-heirs spiritually. If you're messing something up or you're not saying something clearly, well, that's her gospel too. That's her Jesus and her faith too. The Lord of her life. And that could even fit into a Matthew 18 moment in which a sister in Christ goes to a pastor privately and shows him his error, which for him certainly could be sin if he's teaching something false. But as an authoritative role, women are encouraged to teach other women and children. Ephesians 5.23 says the husband is the head of the wife. Ephesians 5.22 and Colossians 3.18 says wives are to submit to their husbands. Galatians 3.28 tells us we are all spiritual equals in Christ. And 1 Peter 3.7 reminds us that women are the weaker vessels, that is physically in that sense, and that should lead to men protecting them. And you could even add emotionally, and biologists have said this, that women are more prone to certain emotions or certain hormonal cycles than men, and so men are to be understanding of that. You also have a pretty clear precedent in that not one woman wrote a single letter in the New Testament. So it's pretty difficult to argue that Paul's words on female elders are limited in context and that male headship is not God's design when it's all over the New Testament for both church and the home. Now, there's another note that I want to make you aware of. And it'd be two arguments that some egalitarians and most feminists, those aren't the same thing, by the way, will turn to when they're frustrated by these truths. Again, not all egalitarians are feminists. Make sure that's clear. The first argument is that those who hold a biblical view of male headship just view women as useless. That's a caricature, a false one. And they're just useless. We just want them to cook and clean and have babies and stay chained in the kitchen all day. That's crazy talk. Nobody who is a biblically minded complementarian is advocating that. Anybody who does is making complementarianism look really, really bad. The second argument is well, male headship is inhumane. It's just abusive. That's just misogyny. That's just the white patriarchy. Understand something. God has used women powerfully throughout all of history, and guess what? He still does today. He's used women mightily throughout the ages. So hear me on this. Across the entirety of the Bible and today, women are used by God to proclaim the truth about his great name. They do teach in certain forums, and they are a witness for the gospel around the world. They just cannot be pastors or elders. They do not get up in a pulpit and take authority over a congregation. Those are one and the same. People will say, well, what about, you know, Beth Moore just preaches on Mother's Day somewhere because it's Mother's Day and the elders said, well, first of all, I don't care if it's Mother's Day or Flag Day or President's Day or Father's Day. Those are all American modern ideas in the sense that the church all of a sudden kind of gets taken over by this holiday. Are we going to have, you know, infertile man or husband Father Day, infertile Mother Day? Are we going to have all sorts of days? Because we're ostracizing people left and right who can't have children. Is there an adoption day? For all the amazing Christians who adopt kids. It's like Father's Day, Mother's Day, and then that takes over the church. And everybody in the church who's single, who's young, or who's a wit, are we going to have widow day? Are we going to have, you know, you can go take that wherever you want. But at the end of the day, it's simple. American pragmatists have made these church days. And that gets lumped in with, you know, well, it's Mother's Day, so Bethmore can preach. I don't think that if Paul the Apostle were here today, or if Jesus even returned, he's going to care that it was Mother's Day. In fact, they're just going to look at you and say, what in the world is Mother's Day? It's called the Lord's Day. And so the Word of God is preached. The leaders who are the authority of the church, which is an authority through love and sacrifice and faithfulness, are still exercising their authority. So Mother's Day or not, we need people in the right roles. That being said, let me give you a simple list of people who God used powerfully in the Old and New Testaments who are all women, but never as elders, and not even as priests in the Old Testament. If you want to try to make the old argument about some of the women God used in the Old Testament being a great argument for now we can have women pastors today. In Esther chapter 4, Esther saved God's people. That is heroic. In Ruth four, Ruth's loyalty changed history. She's in the lineage of Christ. In 1 Samuel 1, Hannah's faith and courage made history. In 1 Samuel 25, verses 30 to 33, Abigail influenced a king. In Judges 4, Deborah, she was a judge, not a priest, but a judge. In John 20, verse 14, Mary told everyone about the resurrection. That wasn't preaching authoritatively in the church. That wasn't being an elder. That was Mary telling everyone about the resurrection. In Acts 18, verses 18 to 28, Priscilla, along with her husband, again, they helped to guide Apollos in some of his teaching. In 1 Corinthians 1, verse 11, Chloe is the one who helps Paul understand what was going on over there. He had a great deal of respect here for these women, like Chloe, Ephoe, mentioned in Romans 16, 1 and 2, was highly commended by Paul as a servant, he says. In Acts 21, 9, Philip's daughters, they prophesy. And then in 1 Corinthians 11, verse 4, we actually have women praying and prophesying in the assembly. So that's an incredible group of women. If we added the missionary women throughout history and the modern women today, faithfully spreading the gospel, serving in our churches, being faithful witnesses, you would have a countless and endless list of incredible godly sisters doing significant ministry and changing the world. Why does that have to then bleed into the argument for women pastors? None of that means that women can be elders or pastors. None of that means anything more than what it does. God chose Mary. He chose Mary. Then she went and told everybody about the resurrection. Why does that have to mean that a woman should be a pastor? These are straw man arguments. They don't make any sense when we break down basic logic. Like a man who can hold his wife's hand in the delivery room, but can never still birth a baby. Women can be useful to God in countless ways as spiritual equals, but their role can never be pastor elder. These are not issues of inequality. They're divine designs for functionality. We know who is supposed to do what and how it's all supposed to look. If only a select group of qualified men are allowed to be elders, then the church is better protected from abusive impostors and confusion. If the list can be changed to now women can do it, well, we're opening ourselves up to wolves in sheep's clothing. Not that a women will be those only, but also, well then who's to say anybody can't be? This is what is happening across the board. In Presbyterian circles, in the United Church of this and the Catholic Church of that, you've got trans persons now being pastors. You have gay pastors, quote unquote. You have people all over the place doing what is right in their own eyes. This is where the egalitarian position can move quickly from just an attempt in scholarship to present another position to trampling upon holy scripture. And the last question I'll say is this the people will say, well, is this an infringement on human dignity? I mean, come on. This has to be. What about their dignity? What about their rights? You know, emphasis on human dignity has continued to rise over the last fifty years, and rightfully so in a lot of ways. We have positive reform in many issues of human rights. But again, it's not a human rights issue to say that men are men, women are women, that what you were born as is what you are, what God says is, is. We've got to humbly ask, does an emphasis on human dignity and gender equality, if you will, meaning spiritually and treating women with respect have to rewrite God's design for gender roles? No. We can most certainly fight for human rights while upholding God's beautiful design for marriage, the home, and the church. And let me go further. It is the right fight for human rights to uphold God's beautiful design for marriage, the home, and the church. Gender distinctions are not human rights abuses or inequality. They are beautiful by God's design and meant to help us fulfill our purpose on earth. In fact, I would go one step further and I could say that we could argue that false victimization can lead us to places we never want to end up theologically or in our society. All people of all colors and genders, male and female, and races, if you will, human race, but ethnicity, are to be seen as equal image bearers of God. None of that changes gender roles in God's design. There are specific things that he has called each sex to fulfill in the fullest sense. And we do well, brothers and sisters, to follow his design. Thanks for listening. For free resources like videos, articles, and other podcast episodes, and our free new series on Roman Catholicism. Go to www.forthegospel.org. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.