Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and today I am flanked by two amazing brothers. They are warriors for Christ. Heath Evans, who is an incredible gospel warrior and proclaimer of truth, and Chris Des Marche, who is a dear friend and brother here in the Phoenix area. We work out together, we do life together, we talk discipleship and serving Christ together. Heath, I want to welcome you first, brother. Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_02Hey, thanks for having me, brother. True honor.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. And Chris, man, always good to be with you. It's good. This is a long time coming, so it's fun to kick it off. Love it. Well, if we could start first, Heath, why don't you talk to us about what you're passionate about, what you do right now, maybe a little bit of your history and what drives your passion. And we're going to have a big conversation today about biblical manhood and even where some of that ties into your story. And then Chris, we'll jump over to you as well. Heath, why don't you kick us off?
SPEAKER_02That's a loaded question there. You asked me about four. I might preach for 90 minutes, and Chris is not going to have any time. So listen, I was born in a godly Christian home with mom and dad that walked it, talked it, preached it, lived it. We were planted in the house of God for sure. And I always thought I was a Christian. 10-year NFL career, played college ball in the SEC at Auburn for three years, eight years in NFL Network. And so that's kind of like the back history of kind of the bulk point of my life. When I was 38, I got fired from NFL Network. Long story, don't have time to go into that today. But through God's salvation rescue mission, he saves my soul in that season and just lights my heart on fire around but God. And I grew up in the church and I knew the word. And I was president of the FCA and leading chaplain that you know for the New England Patriots and the New Orleans Saints. And yet I was dead in my sins. And so my passion is Christ and Christ alone. And to declare his great, glorious praise to as many people that will listen. What do I do? I help my wife coach women that are severely overweight. I coach them to lose weight, coach them to prioritize the word of God so that they can walk in truth. And that will help them in their mental and physical and spiritual disciplines. I coach real estate teams of how to how do you build healthy teams? To build healthy teams, you need healthy teammates. We can take everything that the word of God tells us about a healthy soul and pour that into people and hopefully they'll be willing to listen to the gospel. And then I love helping men physically, nutritionally, spiritually. You know, I have opportunities just to love on a lot of men. And so I love discipling men in these three categories because we need it. If we're going to be godly, ferocious men, we need to be physically sound and we need to be nutritionally sound. But but if we're not spiritually sound, we're dead in water.
SPEAKER_01Amen. I love that. Man, I'm always encouraged. I on social media, just watching your public witness. And I'm pretty sure that you do all those things you mentioned about physical fitness and nutrition, but I'm I'm very sure about your gospel witness. You are one of the loudest and proudest in the right way, meaning you're proud of Jesus and what he's done online. And I think that is a huge testament to your passions. Appreciate you, brother. And you know, Chris, share a little bit about your backstory and where your passion for the Lord comes from, and even some of the life events that have helped you understand the sovereignty of God more. And even now, your witness as a guy in the fitness industry, you know, speak to that and and some of your upcoming seasons, even as a new dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I can relate to Heath in several ways there. Um, raised in a Bible-believing, Bible-teaching home by a great father and mother. Uh, my dad is the superintendent now of a Christian school district here in the valley, and a good friend of yours. Um, but he was uh a principal, a teacher, uh youth pastor, children's pastor growing up. So I've been fed a constant diet of sound doctrine my entire life and sort of grew up, you know, church on Sundays, Bible study at the kitchen table, the the whole nine yards, and I always had a, you know, probably what was a great foundation for a sound, logical, intellectual faith that I held. Um it wasn't until I think that my faith was really tried and tested through suffering that that became a real thing to me. Um, and like you said, the sovereignty of God, the faithfulness of God. Um, I was married uh pretty young around 22 uh to my first wife, Madison, and uh we were happily married for over two years when she uh very suddenly and unexpectedly contracted stage four colon cancer. So it was, we were living in Dallas at the time, um, in McKinney, and it was an eight-month battle of uh an amazing uh courage and joy and faith on her part through that suffering that unfortunately ended in her um passing um in early uh 2020. So uh through that, you know, that you know puts your uh feet to the fire in terms of uh making sure your faith is real and and testing those uh those beliefs, those intellectual beliefs that you've held your whole life and figuring out if you know your money's where your mouth is on that. So that was a transformational period for me, not only going through that um and then past that, past her uh Madison's passing, in that season of uh singleness and and working through a sort of a a sudden new start in life. What how do I respond to this suffering? Like trusting in God's faithfulness through that, and now to be joyfully married to my wife Hannah and expecting our first daughter and seeing seeing God's faithfulness through that trial brings a whole new light and a whole new truth to those to those beliefs that I've you know I've held in some form or fashion my whole life. But that witness and that story has allowed me to be able to pour into some other younger guys around me, newly married guys, um in our in our Bible study and in our church. And you know, they can look to me um in a slightly different light than maybe their other peers because of those things that God has chosen to uh to give to me. So as we uh as we discussed before, I you know, we work out together. I'm a trainer, uh just a personal training business out of my own uh home here, and I've been able to forge some amazing relationships, including with you here, and and get to utilize uh my sessions with you as uh free counseling for an hour, free biblical counseling, which uh is a great trade-off on my part, but um, and just you know, go back and forth with you, and you know, you can speak into my life and and we're interested in some of these uh these issues around you know faith and manhood. And I feel like this podcast almost originated with the thought of thinking we should really record some of these conversations we're having in here because they're pretty good. And I really wish that I could have heard them you know when I was at a younger age or what have you. So um I I enjoy what I do, I love what I do. Um we've got some interesting businesses uh in the works here as far as creating some centers for spiritual, physical, and mental health here in the East Valley. But um I love working with people, I love fostering relationships, and um, I love being with other guys and and encouraging each other in Christ.
SPEAKER_01So good, man. And how old are you? Say that oh 26. So 26. So all of that life in just your mid-20s. I think one of the neatest things, and this would would play across age, but you get to know people and what they've been through, and then you see why their faith is stronger, you see what it's done to them and for them. And I look, I think of James 1, 2 through 4. James says that you know, you're gonna count it all joy when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance, endurance is gonna have a result. James's whole point is that your faith is gonna be tested and proven in the midst of suffering, and it's one of the things that suffering does. You know, Heath, what you went through in your late 30s, God used to transform you and now just set you on fire. And for you, Chris, it was in your mid-20s and early 20s. You go through that, and now you're entering into a new phase. I don't know why God does it to us at the ages he does it, but I'm thankful for 26-year-old men with a good biblical view on sovereignty like you have, and that maturity and perspective on eternity. And he, I'm thankful for guys like you that for all your NFL accolades and your Super Bowl ring and your you know top dollar lifestyle that you had as a big time guy, you would count it all as rubbish compared to knowing Christ, like Paul says in Philippians 3. So, man, let's talk manhood. I'm gonna give us a little scenario here, the two extremes, and then let's walk down Main Street and stay balanced, but let's press in a little bit on some of the cultural ideas. So, extreme one, being a man is ego, power, testosterone, and even a Christian man, it's like rah-rah all the time. And I think of Peter in the Bible. It's like a powerful moment. He's like, we should build some altars right here. Or Jesus, I'll die. You're not going to the cross, I'm gonna die for you. Or they come to arrest Christ, and guy pulls out the sword, cuts the ear off. It's like, and then, you know, even in his denial, hey, aren't you with him? Weren't you with him? No, I don't even know the guy. You know, always extreme, always intense. Jesus tells him, get behind me, Satan. And so, you know, let's call it Peter style manhood. The guy is always on, it's level 10 all the time, rah-rah, bring it on. And the Lord shapes Peter and He he tenderizes him a bit and even tells him, Do you love me? Yeah, I love you, Lord. There at the end in John 21. He goes, Then then feed my sheep, tend my lambs. And then let's go to the other side though, and you have this passive feminized culture of manhood in the church, guys that don't know their Bibles, guys that are their their wives are running the show, not because of any reason except they won't take the lead, and so she's gotta go do that. I would call this maybe the curse of Adam. It's like Eve's getting tempted, she's out on the battlefield, she's there, the serpent finds her, tempts her, and like, where's Adam? He's cracking a beer, watching ESPN somewhere in a back room, he's glued to the TV, he's out with his buddies, and his wife and home are under temptation, and this man is nowhere to be found. You have two extremes of you know, passive Adam and maybe over-aggressive Peter. You know, Heath, let's start with you. Uh, what are some of the ways that you stay in balance as a strong, godly, physically imposing man with a dominant personality and that big bellowing voice of truth that you have, while having a tender heart and being strong but under control?
SPEAKER_02Massive levels of accountability. I have men buried in every area of my life. Um, you know, Pastor Mark Dever. Yeah. I've been married to Chrissy almost two years. It's been a couple times in the last two years. Chrissy's like, that's it. Call in Mark. Call up Mark. Mark's like, Heath, are you living in an understanding way with your wife? Are you laying down your life for Christ? And so, but I've welcomed that. So in every area of life, I need it. I'm a 43-year-old grown man, tough in a lot of ways. There's still seasons where I will call my dad and be like, hey, dad, I need you to call at 6 a.m. your time, 5 a.m. my time to make sure I've accomplished X, Y, and Z. I know what I was. And I know outside of being buried in this word and massive levels of accountability, it's hopeless. Manhood, there is nothing tougher if we are married, these duties that are not suggestions, but that are commands for what we must do if we are Christian men empowered by the Holy Spirit. We, we, we kind of play with this, not say we, American culture, church culture plays with this word, like these Bible scriptures and these texts and the and the words that flow out of our Savior's mouth, and God empowering Paul to pin these letters to us, are kind of like take it or leave it messages. Well, they're not. They're they're God's instruction, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, we get to walk in these. So if there was constantly two key points that keep me in check, I tell my men all the time that dysfunctional doesn't look dysfunctional to the dysfunctional. I can't see my dysfunction. I need to open that door. I've got to have you brothers, hey, where am I falling short? Chris, you might see a training video six weeks from now and be like, hey, listen, your squat form, that left hip was dipping in, or hey, is something wrong with your right ankle? Is there some flexibility off there or something? You might see something that might save me a disastrous back injury. But that's what we're supposed to do as men, and we're supposed to welcome it and crave it and get mutually encouraged off it. People are scared to death of honesty. We're only scared to death of honesty when we're hiding something. So if we're not matter-of-factly just buried in this word, and if we are not welcoming all types of godly accountability, I think we're doomed. And it and we're living the opposite of what our Savior lived. He's fully submitted to the accountability and the authority and to the glory of his father. And he was the living, active, breathing, walking word, Savior, Messiah. How else are we going to do manhood outside of day and night meditating on this word and then having godly, ferocious men? I welcome it, rebuke me, encourage me, grow me up, strengthen me. Whatever you see, I'm unoffendable, bring it on. I want to be like Christ. I think it starts there and it ends there.
SPEAKER_01So good. Where do you find encouragement to be unoffendable? Like you speak to the guy who's hearing you say that and going, all right, but you know, he doesn't want to admit it, but he's maybe a little sensitive to criticism, or he gets hit and immediately the defense mechanisms come up and he makes excuses.
SPEAKER_02Join the club. It's our flesh. It's all of us. Now, listen, I was blessed to grow up with a crazy awesome mom. I mean, listen, my dad's a former Marine, loves God, got saved, never got over. He's ferocious with the gospel. He's going to witness to the guy going through Dunkin' Donuts. Like, if you're with dad, you're going to get preached at it. It just isn't what it is. But but like in a Friday night stadium, my mom like has this like three-yard radius around her. No one's sitting with her. Everyone thought my mom and dad were having marital issues, you know, because my dad's over in the corner of the stands by himself with his hand in the air praying for everyone. My mom's yelling and screaming at me because I laid on the ground too long. So I've got this marine hard dad that the Holy Spirit got a hold of. He goes from fighting people out in the bar to he'll just turn the other cheek on anyone. And so I had the benefits of great instruction, but my flesh is pathetic. It's a punk. Like Chrissy can bring me, hey, you're the way you delivered that truthful message to Ava Naomi, it didn't come out the way you think it came out. He I've told you, baby, you gotta tone down this demeanor of yours. Well, inside, if I ain't right with the Holy Spirit, that's gonna drive me up a wall. I'm gonna respond wrong again. But if I'm walking in the spirit, which I matter of fact that he has power to, and if I believe what the word of God says, that offense that starts to rise up, how beautiful is it to squash it? And how beautiful is it to have that just heal a marriage and bring us even that much more closer together so that our conversation, our sex, our cuddle time, all that stuff is just better and better and better because through the power of the Holy Spirit, I squashed what we all struggle with. That flesh is strong. My spirit, when he said, or my savior, when he said it's finished, I've got the power to squash it. Do I believe what my savior said? And I matter-of-factly do. Am I perfect? No. But by God's grace, I'm winning more and more battles every single day. And so these girls and my wife see the tenderness of Christ, and they don't see my flesh, because I promise you, my flesh is ugly.
SPEAKER_01So good. So good. I want to throw a kind of a passage at Chris and get some thoughts on this. Heath, as you're talking, I'm thinking of Galatians 5. I want to read you guys the idea of walking by the Spirit. Paul says in Galatians 5 16, but I say, walk by the spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh, for the desire of the flesh is against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. So there's accountability there. But if you are led by the spirit, you're not under the law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident. They are sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, Paul just laying it on, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and then just in case there wasn't everything listed, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. And then he lists the fruit of the Spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Then he says, Against such things there is no law. So hey, no law. You can do those as much as you want. Have fun with that. Now those who belong to Christ crucify the flesh with its passions and desires. The idea here, Paul, in the original language, when he says walk by the spirit, the word literally means to be preoccupied with the things of the spirit. So that means that your lifestyle, your decisions, your eyes, your mind, your habits, your calendar, all of it is preoccupied. So question for Chris you know, what are some of the ways that you ensure your life is preoccupied with the things of the spirit? And let's add another element. You're in the fitness industry, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to think from TikTok, Instagram, and today's culture with the body and a modesty and kind of the idol of that, which is no different than the Bible from the Greek culture and Roman culture, they idolize the body. Like the movie 300, it's like, yeah, how do I get abs like that? The idea of health and all that is great, but how do you, in in your life, as a guy who's 26, stay preoccupied with the things of the spirit in all areas of your life?
SPEAKER_00It's a good question. And I I can't stand here and pretend like I succeed at that. You know, I think we all we all fail. However, just as the beginning of the passage stated, you know, we have the spirit which by God's grace allows us uh to glorify Christ through obedience to him and to his commandments. And uh something that you know was evident there is there's a listing of of attributes and things in which we are to seek after and things we are to stay away from. And even as Heath was speaking, he was talking about loving his wife. I was reminded of uh the great Paul Washer sermon that we talked about before of you know, you have the authority as a man not to stand above your wife and to look down upon her, but you have the authority to go to bed the most tired of everyone in the family. You have the authority to serve and to be of service. And and in that sermon he goes through 1 Corinthians, you know, the famous uh wedding passage that's always read, you know? And and he said, Have you ever actually went through and defined what love means? We have a list here of things in which it means to love your wife. Are you boasting of yourself to your wife? Are you easily angered with your wife? You know, are you uh self-seeking in regards to, you know, and so there's there's characteristics in which you can actually have definitions around what it means to be loving and what it means to be a man in that relationship. So all of this points back to the fact that we have to be buried in the truth, we have to be filling our minds uh with with God's word through through reading, first and foremost, through prayer, through uh the counsel of wise men, um, as he stated. And and that all leads uh into a heart transformation and a desire to please Christ, and through that desire, those behavioral changes flow. It's in that order and not in the reverse. You can't just desire to be a better husband, or you have to desire first to please Christ, and through that love for Christ, those uh those fruits, as you read, will manifest themselves. And and this way, you are never going to be playing a tit-for-tat game in your relationships, because while sometimes your your your wife or your child may not be quote unquote deserving of your love or your patience or your kindness in that moment, Christ is always deserving. And he's always deserving of that submission to his word and of that that love and expression of his glory. So, with that priority in our lives and in our minds, um the other things take care of themselves, but it's that focus. On Christ. That's primary. So good.
SPEAKER_01Um, I I want to play the clip of that Paul Washer segment just briefly and highlight you know the laying down of rights, and so listen to this really quick.
SPEAKER_03How do I have authority? I have authority to serve. I have authority to make every decision I make. For the glory of God. For the benefit of my wife. For the benefit of my children. And what about me? You're a really wonderfully grave. You're already ready for it. It's not a Caesar like everybody deserves me. And we have that tendency. We come home with a say you're the breadwinner. You've worked very hard. You come home. Everyone ought to serve you. No, they they don't. You just keep going.
SPEAKER_01So I want to talk a little bit about sacrifice and understanding, you know, men and our rights. I love how Paul Washer will say things like that. You know, yeah, as a man, you've got rights. You've got the right to begin working after work is done, because your real work begins when you get home. You have the right to stay up later to rise earlier. You have the right to lay down the flesh. You have the right to sacrifice. Let's talk about sacrifice. Heath, uh, what are some of the ways in which you know biblically a man is called to sacrifice? This is obviously going to mess with our humility and our egos and our pride. So you probably want to point us to a passage of scripture. Speak to sacrifice humility and the example of Christ in that.
SPEAKER_02Outside of Christ, I'm the least understanding person on the planet. I am bullheaded. It is my way or the highway. I am, if I know what I'm talking about, and by God's grace, he's so gracious with me. Even in you guys talk, you were praising Chris for just his stance on the sovereignty and the rule and reign of our supreme king, I will die on most hills, and some hills I shouldn't. But first Peter tells me that I'm I'm commanded to live with Christine in an understanding way.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_02That when my heart and my mind and everything, even when I see the biblical truth of the heartache that she's expressing and just wants to be heard. My inner man being that just wants to fix it because I want to take her to the word of God and I want to lead her there in the moment. I just want it to be over and done with by God's grace. A great godly man sat me down and said, Hey, Heath, the heart behind truth is always good. Timing and what Christy really needs, she lives with you. She already knows that truth. She's the weaker vessel. Treat her as such in that moment. Present her beautifully and perfect to Christ in that moment. Hear her, lower yourself, seek to understand really what this heartbreak is. What is this emotional break where she can't take the truth that God has implanted in her soul in this moment and bring it to reckoning with what she's feeling in her emotional being? Help her do that. Man, I'm telling it, Costi. I I have these 1 Peter 3:7 all over the house. Why? Because I'm dumb and I just need constant reminder. And and I'm I'm selfish. I'm even selfish with the truth. I mean, I'm constantly repenting over bringing people the truth and the wrong heart and the wrong motivation and and just just crap, sinful nonsense, you know. And so I'm so thankful for the Holy Spirit as you were reading those fruit of the spirits, and and we get to the end, it says, He says, those who belong, God's word is like a constant. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. I always on myself and on the men that God's gifted me to love and to lead and disciple. We always prioritize our priorities. The problem is I just say my priorities are things that they're not. I love Ava and Naomi. I love Christy, but I look back on a day's schedule and my schedule didn't say that I love them. It said it said that I loved maybe my time at the gym, and maybe it said I even love the guys that I'm discipling more than I loved my family because they were the priorities. And so we know we have to matter-of-factly deal in truth if we're going to be godly men, and it's God's truth, not whatever I think is truth is, according to my emotions in the moment. But those words of of God through Paul's pen of, man, if we belong to Christ, we we are, we're gonna be able to squash these things and really prioritize what are the priorities. And I that's the the truth that as I so struggle to be understanding. I'm not a chick, I'm the farthest thing from it. I was raised by a tough mom, a godly ferocious woman, and a godly ferocious Marine. I lack understanding. But dying to self, submitting to the Holy Spirit, planting these three by five cards, I have it on the steering wheel of my Tahoe, taped. So when I'm driving and I'm listening to P dub or some other crazy preacher that I need to probably put down because they get me too fired up, and then and then all and then I gotta get them around on Instagram or something. But but as a husband, that putting that truth of man, I this is what is commanded of me with the spirit living in me. I can't resist it because it's everywhere and I want the truth and I live for the truth. And so that'd be my one long-winded answer to your question about be understanding and don't stop just with our brides, but with our children, with the part of the bride at the church and the guy at the grocery store and everywhere else.
SPEAKER_01So awful. Priorities just is ringing in my ears as you're talking about that. What did you say? We prioritize what we prioritize.
SPEAKER_02We always prioritize our priorities. It's just we're all liars. Like we get to the end of it, and I challenge my men, you know. They're Chris, you know, man, I'm doing my best. All right, well, bring out your food blog. Let's let's see what you prioritize this week. Tell me how much water you drink. Oh, did you get your seven and a half hours? You don't prioritize any of this stuff. And then the men that try to tell me they love God, I'm like, tell me how much time you were in this this week. And then I and my just bold, crazy self, buddy, you don't love God. You love you, and that's why your marriage is falling apart, that's why your kids don't like you. And you might be $15 million in the bank, but you don't love your wife. And you don't love God. Because if you did, you'd love his word. Because this is a living, breathing Christ that we have right in front of us.
SPEAKER_01Men were designed for that type of talk, though. They were, I'm convinced, and I'll back it up biblically. Proverbs 27. You got seven, which everyone talks about iron sharpening iron. Um, but verse six. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Your faithful brothers will wound you. Everybody loves saying, you know, iron as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Yes, absolutely. But what does that look like? Sparks are flying. And then earlier, verse six, there's there's a wounding. If you aren't being wounded by a brother, you probably aren't around friends, guys that actually love you, that are willing to go, yeah, I'll say it. And so I I think it's so vital. You we need men that care about us enough not to care about that other stuff. You love somebody enough to go, yep, I might I might lose your approval on this one for this day or week, or you might be upset with me for a while, or I might have to walk this back because you get real mad initially, and then you go, well, flesh that out, and now I need to explain more things to you. There's all those. But that the way I've grown in my life is somebody, you know, cut me deeply in the right way. They wounded me by saying, Well, what's the heart issue on that? Like you mentioned, Chris. You know, behavior modification is one thing, but heart transformation is where it starts. You go, well, what's the heart posture, or what's the heart issue there? And you go, well, I don't know. I mean, she's just she's just this, or or they don't understand this, or I'm I'm not being, you know, I don't have enough of that. And you just go right down to the heart issue, and usually you got to go, I'm idolizing that thing. I idolize that. Or I don't really want Jesus, I just want all the benefits. Or I want the label of, man, what a great guy. I want people to think I'm awesome, but the reality is I just want to be rich and I want to be powerful and I want to be dominant, and then I want everyone to think I'm super spiritual. So I I think what you said, Heath, about priorities. Men, we're so good at faking it. We pick on the women for their airbrushing and their like the culture on Instagram and on social media today, and how women you know put on a face or whatever, there's comparison. Men are probably the most fake part of our culture in a lot of ways, which is why we have issues in the home and in marriages. We've got to be more honest.
SPEAKER_00I think it comes down to a lack of humility in a lot of ways. I mean, a lot of what we're discussing, even the the willingness to surround yourself by other men and be wounded at times by the sharpening, you have to submit yourself to that and be humble enough to to, for one, open up and actually share truthfully about your struggles, um, and then two, to to actually take correction like a wise man should, you know, and so I, you know, I see that probably as you know, I reflect often on the transformations that, you know, the the ways that God has transformed my heart and the differences I can see between, you know, my marriage to Hannah and my marriage to Madison, and probably the number one difference is just marked by so much more humility. And and that's obviously not of my own willpower or doing because that wasn't the person that I was before Christ transformed me in that way. And and that is such a benefit to that relationship because of an ability to, as he said, kind of lower yourself down and be willing to communicate, be willing to seek to understand and to actually listen and to explain and say, you know, if if there's a disagreement, if if there's a time in which you as the the head of the household have to um you know have to explain that something is going to take place in a certain way or help your wife work through an understanding of a situation, that has to be done in a way that's loving and tender and fostering um a relationship and a communication about that issue because you can't just be running her over. That's something you can't if you know that you many men know that they can sort of out-argue their wife and maybe, you know, if I know I'm wrong, but I'm gonna circular argument to this point where she's just gonna give up and I'm gonna be right in the end. No, it's it's a commitment to to communication and to humility, and that will foster respect in which your wife will actually be willing to submit to your authority because it it can't be a uh you holding that, wielding that authority over her head. There's a beautiful thing um of a wife's willingness to submit to your authority because you've humbled yourself in that relationship, and and that's just a huge blessing. And I'm I'm very blessed in that way.
SPEAKER_02But I've noticed it in my marriage, and I've noticed it in friendships, even like we're building today, that Ecclesiastes 412 verse, I never remember references, I just had to cheat look it up. Um, it talks about the court of three strands. And so, Costi, you could see something that maybe I put out on Instagram be like, hey, that came across real harsh, and you could hit me up. But because our friendship is based on you, me, and the Holy Spirit alive and active in both of us, I might in my sinful flesh respond poorly. You know as well as I do, a brother in Christ can't live under that conviction of the Holy Spirit. I'm gonna have to circle back. Hey, brother, I'm so sorry for responding you in a prideful way. Thank you for those things. I think what happens most of the time, people take verses like core to three strands, and we're just trying to do three men doing relationship with no Holy Spirit, and these marks of the true Christian. I challenge men, even in the local bride here in our church, like, men, these marks of a true Christian are the are they evident in in our lives? The way we think on Christ and the way that we enjoy his presence through his word, the way that we even love repentance, you know, and so I think in these friendships when you have to have tough conversations, it's one of those markers that I always keep in mind of like, my brother's looks like he's pursuing God, but there's this constant spirit that he never handles biblical confrontation well. God's men always come back around. And most of the time, it ain't really, really long and bitter terms before they come back.
SPEAKER_01Dude, that's so good. I can think of time and time again in my life where brothers wounded me, and uh, you know, I I said Proverbs 27, 7 earlier. It's 17, iron sharpens iron. Six is faith for the wounds of a friend, guys wound, and then you come back around and frustrated, and then in the end you gotta you go, Man, you were right. Thank you for saying that. And I mean, how how do you guys work through patience? You talk about with wives, with your children. How does a man who we're usually aggressive, we're dominant, we want to go after it and get it in life and and accomplish things. How does a man learn patience? What are some of the metrics or the the steps you take practically, guys, to be patient for the dreams you have, the the vision or mission of your life, the things you want to accomplish. And then even with yourself, when you know, you know, Chris said it earlier, I don't do this perfectly. Heath, you're honest. I mean, I'm I'm the same way. There's times where I just kind of need to stop in the middle of driving with my wife or in the middle of a conversation to go, sorry, sorry, what I I'm coming off too aggressive, I'm coming off too passionate, too dominant. I know you're with me here. I know you want to have a discussion. I'm sorry. Just so let me back that up. That was insensitive. How do you maintain patience with yourself without, for lack of a better word, sacrificing your manhood and your strength? Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, what's our definition of manhood? I think is kind of where we got to start because so many people are just misguided on manhood. What is biblical humility? You know, I think biblical humility isn't thinking less of myself. I think it's thinking accurately of myself. I think we live in a faith that is based on confession. My confession that I am a sinner in desperate need of a savior, my confession that Jesus finished his work on the cross, and when he said it's finished, it's finished for this boy because he chose me before foundations of time. God the Father adopted me into the family and it's just fixed over and done with. And so my confession is in Christ, in Christ alone, the work of God and God alone, but it's also a confession of sin. And so this humility marker of what I believe godly men are, their life is just overwhelmed with confession. They're they're always talking about Christ because He's our all. He's what glues our marriages together, he's what allows us to tenderly love our daughters, he allows us to what raise godly young men if we have boys as as sons. I the patience part, it's it's uh I it's two things for me. In building a business or even what we moved to Texas for in the sense of our hopes and dreams. We we believe God brought us here to start the biggest, baddest ranch, and we want to have 10,000 orphans living on our property. What's God doing right now? We can't even come up with a proper biblical vision statement. My God is sovereign. I was reading in 1 Kings this morning, uh, Rahboam, Jeboam. I don't know why God made their name so jacked up in my I've messed up those in the pulpit, man.
SPEAKER_01Rehoboam, Jeroboam, you got Solomon's sons, the kingdom divided. I had a woman come up to me. This was like two years ago. I'm a seminary grad, and she's like, Pastor, I don't mean to nitpick, but you got she was like raised in the South, Church of the South, so typical. Those southern churches, they used to raise the kids right. Everybody knew their Bible. She goes, Pastor, I don't mean to nitpick. You said Rhaboam, it was Jeroboam, and you said Jeroboam was a remote. I'm like, I'm so sorry. We just had four services. I don't know what's up and what's down right now.
SPEAKER_02But God just so clearly said, Jeroboam, whatever. This all happened according to the will of God. So men fully guilty before a holy God, fully responsible for their sin, their disobedience. This happened because God just said so. And so when it comes to God has so gifted me that this gift of faith to just trust in his rule and reign, I I tell Chrissy all the time, and so many men, um, I'm I just praise God for the faith he's given me because I don't wrestle with those things. Patience and relationships, um my my sin is is um it's deceptive. I can be operating in great visual patience, and my mind is very arrogant, and my heart is very far from what my actions are showing. And so my repentance and Chrissy's repentance in our home can look very different. It's the same heart issue. Now, where the world sees my impatience fall apart is God's still working on me on this defense mechanism of my girls. Um, the girls they bale me by God's grace. Chrissy hasn't seen it yet. But when someone is rude or disrespectful to one of my women, I black out and I can lose my Christian faith really quickly. Um, and so God has brought me a long way. So my patience um is sinful in numerous ways. And by the power of the Holy Spirit, he constantly keeps me in repentance because oftentimes in this home it can look like patience, but it's sinful and wicked. And it's it's it's nothing. This heart is is telling telling me all types of truth about myself in those moments.
SPEAKER_01Okay, question Jeremiah 17 9 The heart above all else is deceitful. How do you know when you're lying to yourself?
SPEAKER_00Check it against scripture. I think uh something I always think about in the heart and the actions, as he spoke about before. I heard a great anecdote one time, which was if someone if someone were to watch your life on mute, what would they say your priorities are? Right? And if you think about that, think about your life on mute, and nobody hears what you're telling everybody your priorities are. What what does your life show? And that's a powerful little game to play with yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's for for me, I I think of the life of Judas. We always, and I say we felt faithful pastors don't, repentance is far greater than a change of mind. With Judas, we see a change of mind, we see the return of the money, we see an I'm sorry, um, we see uh tears, um and then we see him turn to death instead of turn to Christ. For me, all glory be to God, I can't escape lies with myself anymore. This last four-year journey, the moment he he he pricks my conscience, I feel like it's what in half the time with me, it's things that no one even saw. And I feel like it's Paul in Romans 7 where he's like, Why just can't I do the things I want to do? And I know I need to do this, but I do this. I literally, the more I read Romans and the more that I see and hear what God wrote through Paul's pen about his confession of this great mystery of the gospel in his own life and his love for the brothers and his affection for people. I'm like, I don't think anyone around Paul would have known he was struggling with sin. I think this was this internal holiness battle that he just so wanted to be like Christ, that he's just he's he's wrestling out these inner things that they were thoughts, they were emotions, they were this spirit, that flesh that he just so wanted to crucify to be like his savior. And and that's often, listen, I fail a lot publicly. I'm constantly apologizing to Ava and Chrissy. But where God has me is I've gotten really good at being patient, but oftentimes even in the patience, that that personal holiness is is far lacking.
SPEAKER_01Yep. What uh what do you what do you say to the man who has become a really good liar? He's in a Bible church, he knows how to put on the roost, he knows how to really fake it well. He's scared to death that people are gonna find out that he doesn't have it all together. Uh he's one way publicly and another way privately, and his whole identity is wrapped up in looking spiritual, feeling important, feeling like he's he's the model of having it all together. And he's let's say he's you know between I don't know, call it like sixty and eighty. He's older, maybe he's fifty, between fifty and eighty. How do you encourage men at that age? And and I don't know how you guys grew up, but I remember, you know, a generation past, my parents, you know, saying stuff to me like, you know, when we were young, our parents, there's no such thing as a parent ever saying sorry to their kids. And there's this older generation that showing weakness as men is almost worse than any other issue. How do you speak to men who are set in their ways? They go, I got too much to lose, Heath. No way, Chris. That's fine. You're 26. I know you lost your wife, I know it was tough. I know, but you got your whole life ahead of you. You you you won't lose like me or Heath, like, whatever, man. You're a football player, you're 38, whatever, NFL network, who cares? Like, I'm in the church, I've got a reputation, I got too much to lose. What do you say to men who they're they won't give up the facade for the honesty and the raw transparency of a real relationship with other brothers?
SPEAKER_02And then I read in Proverbs 6, 16 through 19. There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him. Haughty eyes, a lying tongue goes on innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes. Why are you lying? What are you devising with your lies? Feet that are quick to rush into evil. You're lying because you're rushing into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension amongst brothers. A lying tongue is guilty of all those. And then you can take them to Proverbs 12 22. The Lord detests lying lips, but he delights in a man who's truthful. And by God's grace, in a moment, a man that God is actively stiff arming and is an enemy of God can come into the loving, gracious, merciful arms. I ask people all the time, 1 John 3 says it says you're a practicing liar. I was a really good liar, liar to myself, liar to my ex-wife, liar to everyone. I firmly believe that 1 John 3, I'm drawing the last couple verses, but it literally says that we're sons of Satan. We're not sons of God. Those are hard words to chew on. I'll never back off of them by God's grace. I don't know exactly what practice means. I have studied and studied hard, and I push my men, don't test God on practicing. Because I don't know if that's three months or three years or what it is. But our God is not to be trifled with. Today's the day of salvation. These waters might start warm. This opportunity might never come to you again for you to turn, repent, and believe the gospel. But right now, I don't care what your pastor told you, I don't care what you believe, God's hand is mightily against you. And you must start telling the truth. And to do that, you must repent and you must believe. And then I'll lay the gospel on them as hard and as beautifully as I possibly can. I can't find a huge sin in my life that didn't start with a lie.
SPEAKER_01Yep. That's really good. I think your words are strong but necessary. They're strong. I won't even say but they're strong and biblical. The idea of the hatred of God is something very, very misunderstood nowadays. So same with prayer. People will say, like, you know, God hears every prayer. God's list. Just pray. Throw one up there to the big guy in the sky. Well, just manhood 101, 1 Peter 3.7 says, if you live with your wife and under in if you don't in an understanding way, your prayers are hindered. In other words, your prayers are bouncing off the ceiling, which is what you were showing with the flashcards. That's a key verse. So God is not hearing your prayers, man, who is living with your wife insensitively. The wicked, those who shed his blood. I think it's really important to understand that the Bible's also clear. John writes this again friendship with the world is enmity with God. You are literally an enemy of God. His wrath, his righteous hatred is pointed towards you. He can't stand it because it's antithetical to who he is and what he's called men to be. You know, you know, Chris, sound off on that a little bit as far as like understanding uh how to run from sin. You're with a lot of different guys. You talk to men all the time who are battling with sin. What do you tell guys who are wrestling with sin? And they say, Well, man, come on, like, I'm just enjoying my life, bro. I'm a Christian, but I'm I'm just enjoying my life. Like, what's the big deal?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, there's certainly no sin that's uncommon to any of us men, and I believe that we can speak from a place of humility, as I said before, when when discussing these things and say, hey, you know, I've I've been there. I've been tempted by these same things. I may have even been in a pattern of sin at one time uh in some of these areas. You know, I think we talk about things that I know Heatha has been vocal on before, things like pornography, things like lust, things that are topics that are not uh maybe a little bit faux pas sometimes to discuss in certain circles, but need to be discussed because of the prevalence and the wickedness of these sins. But I think how do you thinking that that this issue is is something that can be simply overcome with more willpower or more drive and focus is is getting it wrong. It's it's a commitment to receiving God's grace and and through prayer and supplication, making a request known to him that that this is something that I'm struggling with, laying it on the line, asking for his forgiveness, asking for a change in heart, and and surrounding yourself with people who are going to keep you accountable. Uh being in the scripture, testing your life and your actions against scripture. It's funny that Heath brought up 1 John. That's exactly what I pulled up here as soon as you brought up that question, because we can test ourselves against Scripture. And if we say we have fellowship with Christ while we walk in darkness, we're we're liars. And we have a clear-cut example of what it means to be walking in the light, what it means to be in fellowship. So there's no uh there is shame in sin, but there is also hope and forgiveness in that sin. And so we we can surround each other's and and I would come to them, I would come to them humbly, and I would come to them from a place of receiving forgiveness and of repenting in Christ and saying, uh, let's work together through this and just come alongside them. So good. So good.
SPEAKER_02This is so much the problem of our American culture and church, and even it's it's expanded into Europe and even African countries of this believe and in this believe term of John 3 16, the three of us know the depths of it. And so what I've tried to do with the men that God's gifted me with is take them to what believing meant in the first century church. Come on. But when you when you go to Romans 10, which we all get our little fake prayer salvation that nobody can find in scripture, you know, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. I'm like, did you guys not read Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9? And to really, because here's the thing, these people that were confessing with their mouths, at best, they might be imprisoned. At worst, they were going to be burned, killed, martyred for the cause of Christ. And so so many people, like what is it, 67% of Americans think that they're professing Christians, and yet you ask them if they have a biblical worldview, it's like less than 40%. So something is not adding up. And so when we graciously lead people to the sovereign, righteous God of the universe who is Jesus Christ, and we present to them, beg for mercy. I once too was a liar. I lost my first marriage because I was a wicked, filthy liar. But God, take them to Ephesians 2, take him to John 3, beg for the spirit to blow in your direction, to grant you mercy. Those are the things that men stuck in sin need to hear because we're so comforted by religious lies. There's nothing more literally damning than these religious lies floating around being preached by fake pulpits and fake pastors all across America.
SPEAKER_01Heath, do you have any final thoughts or any encouragement to men listening who would be spurred on by your pro your push, your press, your full court press on manhood?
SPEAKER_02Let's go to the word of God. Um when I first met Mark Dever, this is one of the first things that he led me to because he knew I wanted to, I wanted my life to howlow the name of God. I wanted to love and serve well. And I met Mark before I met Chrissy, my new bride. Um, but King David was a pretty special man by God's grace. And his last words are found in 2 Samuel 23, verses 3 and 4 is what I want to focus on. And then I want to go to one New Testament text and I'll be brief, I promise you. But men, if you're listening, test the fruits of your leadership on these principles I'm getting rid of drop from God's word, not Chris's, not Kasti's, not mine. Verse 3, 2 Samuel chapter 23. The God of Israel has spoken. God has spoken. The rock of Israel has said to me, when one rules, when one leads, when one is a godly man, justly over men, ruling in the fear of God, he dawns on them like the morning light, like the sun shining forth on a cloudless morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth. Do I make Chrissy think and feel that way? The men that God's given me, do I lead them this way? And too often the answer is not. It's not a justly godly ruling factor, is men and authority that leads the people, my daughters, my wife, people under me, in this position where they're just so glorying in what my leadership through Christ and Christ alone has offered them. And Costi, this is, I think, God's greatest testimony. And I think it's it's for every man in regards to what is biblical masculinity at its core. Uh, Philippians one is has some verses that people preach and cling to, and some for good reasons. Starting in verse six in chapter one, Paul is saying, and I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. And then we hear pastors stop and they confirm this salvation that I have this great confidence, I'm sure of this, but they never get to verse seven. Paul says, It is right for me to feel this way. Paul said it's it's right for me to be so sure of your foundation in Christ in Christ alone. Why? Because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel. Paul was confident in their faith in Christ. Why? Why was it good for him to feel this way? Because they were partakers of grace and they defended and they confirmed the gospel in our day and age when there is no changing the gospel, but if we want to be real men, I I've staked my life on these verses. My hunger to defend and confirm the gospel of Jesus Christ who saved me. That's why I'm sure that when Jesus Christ said it's finished, he had me in mind. Because I've got a burning passion to do that. And ain't no fake man doing those things. Real men, godly character, partakers of godly grace, they're going to confirm and defend the gospel at all costs.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Well said. Well said. Well, brothers, thank you. Heath, appreciate you, man. Chris, so thankful for you, man. And well, thank you all for listening. Our prayers that this episode spurs you on. Uh, if you're a woman, be praying for your husband if you're married, and if you're not, pray for a man with godly deep convictions who will love and lead you like Christ. And for you, brothers, you're listening to this, maybe some of it seems intense, and you hear Chris say something, or I or Heath, you go, man, that's just that's just way beyond me. Or no, I'm not, I'm not down with that. I would encourage you to filter everything we say through Scripture. And our convictions don't need to be your commands, but scriptural convictions are your commands. And so find your next step in the Word of God and be spurred on by godly men through the practical steps that they take in enacting God's word. If you're not in a local church, get in one. If you're not repenting of your sin and you're not getting honest about your sin, it's time to do that. And if you've been going through the motions, well, no better time than now to wake up and start loving and leading faithfully, brothers. Love you. And we'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.