Welcome to For the Gospel, where we're all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and the episode you are about to listen to is an interview with Ryan and Shayna Shackelford. It's on the topic of special needs, and it is going to be a blessing to you no matter where you are in your walk with the Lord or your understanding of special needs. You might be a family who has a child with special needs or somebody expecting, or somebody in the body of Christ who needs to learn and grow how you can support families with special needs. It's going to bless you greatly. Ryan and Shayna are members of Shepherd's House Bible Church, where I get the privilege of being their pastor. They are dear friends. I've observed their home. They are the real deal. So jump in with us and let this interview equip you and encourage you. Hey guys, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_04Good.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, I'm glad you're here today, and I wanted to have you on so that we could talk about special needs. There's a lot to cover. I've got a lot of, I think, good questions, probably some ignorant ones too. You guys have a lot of wisdom and experience with special needs, as well as adoption, maybe another topic for another time. But your dear friends of ours, we love you like crazy, part of our church. But a lot of people listening or watching don't know you guys. I'd love to get a little bit of background and then I have some questions on special needs for you. Ryan, we'll start with you. Who even are you? What do you guys even do with your lives?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm Ryan. This is my wife, Shayna. Uh, we've been married eight years in May, coming up here soon. Uh, we have three boys. They're five, four, and six months. Um, they've been awesome to raise, and we're super excited to be, you know, investing in them every day as parents. And we serve currently at Shepherd's House Bible Church. You know us well, obviously. Um, we're involved in children's ministry. We have some shepherding groups that we're involved with with young adult college students as well. And then I serve as a deacon, so we run your ragged easier. We run your ragged. Yeah, we it's been it's been awesome. Obviously, just finished our first year of the church plant, so um, it's been really fun to see the Lord grow. Our friendships with people at the church and just see the body, body life has been awesome.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Yeah, we're really thankful for you guys. I think seeing the way the Lord has used you in a lot of ways with the college ministry, young adults, uh in shepherd groups, and as a deacon has been fun. But one of the really interesting kind of storylines that didn't see happening is because of your experience with adoptions, parents and families who are going, hey, how do we adopt? What do we do? What did you even do? And then getting to watch you guys go through the adoption process with your third was such a fun experience. Your second adoption, but third child was fun to kind of get a front row seat to that. But your oldest son has special needs. Kind of take us into that journey or the experience first by explaining you guys get married. What were some of your expectations? Shane, I want to throw this one to you. What were some of your expectations as a young girl? You're marrying this guy, he graduates from the masters, plays baseball, you know, dream life everything. What more could you want? What more could you want? Talk to us about those maybe very normal girl dreams that here he is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, we got married in 2015. We had been married for probably a year and a half, and we're like, okay, I think we're ready to start our family. And we didn't know, like, we we knew we wanted to have kids and what that would look like, and you always kind of have this idea. And we got pregnant right away, which was I think kind of shocking. And um we did a test, um, it's called the NIP test, and we found out pretty early on that our firstborn not only was he gonna be born with Down syndrome, but that he also was a boy. Um, so in the same phone call, we got that news, and we were we were devastated to be honest. It was a curveball that we had never seen coming. Um, and it took took time for us to like wrap our minds around it, but now I couldn't couldn't imagine it any other way.
SPEAKER_01Take me into that that emotion and that feeling because I love one thing too. I think that we said my wife and I both, Christine, you guys know, enjoy with our friendship and the way you guys are in our church. There's an authenticity and an honesty with you guys that is so refreshing and encouraging. Most people would be scared to death to say what you just said. We were devastated because A, that's not politically correct. B, we're Christians, the sanctity of life. I mean, how dare I mean, it's a baby made in the image of God. All children are beautiful. Yes and amen to all of that, but on a very human level, especially if there's somebody who's watching or listening that is afraid to kind of be honest about those feelings. Where did that devastation come from? Was it expectations? Was it fear? Was it even even like preconceived notions or like even personal ego? Like we're gonna have a family, and just speaking personally, I'm a man, I'm gonna have sons, or I'm gonna have these boys, and they're gonna be athletes, or my wife and I'm gonna have girls and they're gonna be this. We have all these preconceived notions. So that's a hugely honest statement you just made. Talk about that a little bit and where that comes from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it was all those things. It was pride, it was expectations. Um, but it just took time. We knew that Rhodes was a blessing from the Lord. We knew that and these were things that we were taught and we knew them, but it just took time for our hearts to just like wrap ourselves, our minds around it.
SPEAKER_03Um I think it's a I think it's a combination of being first-time parents is a big factor because we don't even know what it's like to have a kid. And we we know we're having a boy, and we walk down that path, and you get in your mind, you're like, he's gonna be a specific way. Um, he's gonna be just like, you know, wants to do what dad wants to do, those type of things. And so you have expectations when you get into, hey, we're gonna start a family, and it it kind of gets a huge curveball thrown immediately. And so you're just really reassessing a lot of those things. We were devastated at first. I remember that we got the news and we just cried together and and talked through, you know, what are we gonna do? You know, we don't know anybody at the time that had Down syndrome, we didn't know what it meant, we didn't know how to do it.
SPEAKER_00We were scared too, because with Down syndrome, you it's kind of a coin toss. You get this 50-50, like they could have a heart problem and need to be rushed off to surgery after they're delivered, and just different complications that we had no clue. And you Google search it, and it's just every horrible story.
SPEAKER_01You just started researching, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's every horrible story you could ever imagine, and you're just like, oh my goodness, like, okay, Lord, we know you're good, we know you're faithful, and that this is your will, but like we're terrified. So, like help us through this.
SPEAKER_03And I think it got, I mean, we knew really early. I think this test, you know, you can you can find out the gender as well as some of these chromosomal abnormalities really early in pregnancy. So we had a a long time even to go before before Rhodes was even born. And so I think as time went on, we can we were able to really go before the Lord and give give you know our first child up in terms of our expectations might not be met, but he God's sovereign over this pregnancy, he's sovereign over our son. And looking back now retrospectively, five years later, it's it's like, what were why were we so upset? Why were we so devastated?
SPEAKER_00We're sad that we were ever sad. Like those tears that you shed, you're just like, oh, if I would have known, I would have never been sad. I would have been like, okay, when do we get to have them? When do we get to have them? Totally. But there was there was dread coming of like, we don't know, nobody knows. We didn't. I served in special ministries in college, but I had never been around a baby. None of my friends were even having babies at the time. We didn't know anybody in our church who had kids with special needs, so it was just like, okay, what do we do? There's no rule book for this, so I guess we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And you're first-time parents. So that's obviously the daunting nature. If you go down the line of having babies and you got these experiences, and then you end up with a a baby with Down syndrome down the road, you're like, oh, okay, all right, and you're you're taking these curveballs as they come. Where did you guys go for wisdom? You already talked about WebMD and the dangers of Googling stuff. We know that. It's not not an ideal space. Where like off the top of my head, and granted, we have to paint this. I'm a pastor, we're in ministry, so we know a little more, maybe, than the average person about other ministries. So even as a pastor, though, I remember serving in a special needs ministry in college, my first couple years in California, and I know of Johnny and friends.
SPEAKER_00I know you guys have been part of churches that are faithful, but where, like what how where did you learn what after we didn't go to Google ever again, um, or even some of our doctors, it was just like, just give us like the medical facts, not really your opinion about what he's gonna be like, um, and we'll filter those. I put in Instagram, I like hashtag searched um Down syndrome, and I was looking through all these different accounts, and I was honestly disheartened because I was just like, none of them are Christians. Do any Christians have kids with Down syndrome? And then I came across an account downright wonderful. Oh, I love that they really are wonderful. Um, and I just DMed the mom, Kelsey, and was just like, here's all my thoughts and feelings. And she helped me so much and just she never made me feel ashamed. She was just like, Those are yeah, feelings that you're gonna go through. But she was like, I promise you you will not be feeling this way when you have that baby in your arms. And she was right.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. I think too, it I've got to witness Shayna after having Rhodes do the same thing for other moms that have gotten connected to us. And so I think it's there's not a huge network that we know of or have experienced. I maybe there is, maybe there's Facebook groups or other other people that are, you know, going through these things, but it was kind of isolating at the beginning because the churches that we went to um didn't have special needs ministries, and it from what I know, it's just because there wasn't a ton of need for it. It wasn't because they didn't, you know, hey, that's ministry, we can't allocate budget for that or whatever. The the need just wasn't there. We never had um any kids I know of with Down syndrome uh for the most part at the churches that we went to. So we were just kind of feeling isolated and trying to figure out on our own, you know, who can we connect with that has information for us? Um who has experienced um raising a son that has Down syndrome because we don't know what our expectations should be. You know, what is the baseline? What is, you know, as he grows up, how should we be um training him, you know, even disciplining him now at a at an older age? And so walking through that has been kind of a roller coaster, but it's been super fun for us to be able to take notes and pray through, you know, different things that we're trying and then be able to um communicate with our friends and and others who come along the path and find out we have a son with Down syndrome and want to reach out and get connected. So it's been really we're kind of establishing um our own path within our own community. Yeah, you're placing the trail, so for sure.
SPEAKER_00We we read parenting books, like we read Shepherding a Child's Heart, and I did like I read some of like Johnny Erickson Tata's books, and just to hear about her story more. Um, she has a great children's book, but we had to like take those things and we're like, okay, we know that the Bible is sufficient. What are tangible things that we need to be doing to help Rhodes, to train him, to shepherd him? Like, and you know, it's like teach him sign language so he's not whining and that he can communicate with you. Um, and so that was like one of the first things we implemented with him, even when he was little, was just like, okay, we can teach him the sign for Jesus and more. Please, thank you, all these things so that we can communicate with him and he can communicate with us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Talk to me about a little bit about that, but first, the the statistics on babies and Down syndrome and abortion are troubling is not even a good enough word, or a deep enough, or a filthy enough, or deadly enough word. What is it like around the world? Like people find out, they take the nip test, and what do they typically do?
SPEAKER_00They abort. I mean, it was the first thing that was offered to us. It was okay, we have we have other options. That was like the first thing.
SPEAKER_03That was the first thing with our genetic counselor or whatever they set us up with at the hospital. Yeah. That was the first question is, you know, are you basically gonna proceed with the pregnancy?
SPEAKER_00And we basically told her, don't ever ask us this question again. We're we're keeping this baby. Um and she never did. She did respect that, but I had doctors, we'd go in and they'd be like, All throughout, why are you so calm? And I was in on the inside being like, I'm not calm, but I would be like, it's the Lord, like the Lord is helping us through this. This is scary, and we don't know, but like it was the Lord. And yeah, I when I did Google and I looked up the statistics, I was mortified at the abortion rates. I mean, there's some Nordic countries and it's almost a hundred percent. Um here in the US, I think it's probably over under 60%. We're we're the lowest.
SPEAKER_01They aborted if they have downs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a very high rate. You can find out as early as 10 weeks.
SPEAKER_03I mean, and I think you can, you know, if you're looking at people in the world, um, they they think that it is such an inconvenience to raise a child with Down syndrome, and they don't even and and we didn't know anyone with Down syndrome, and we we have our son Rhodes, and he's the greatest joy that we could ever imagine. And so it's it's so sad to see people make that decision. It's horrible in general, abortion is awful. Um, and it's just people have no respect for the fact that Rhodes can grow up to be a happy, um, healthy son of ours, and he can do a lot of the same things that every other child can do. He has his own, you know, he's been the same size the last three years. So he's a small little guy. But he gets to we really get our money's worth on his clothes and his shoes. You know, so all that's you know beneficial to the budget, but um he's great. I I I don't think people understand, you know, what it is to raise a child Down syndrome.
SPEAKER_00But we also didn't understand, like we had no clue. And you know, how do you know other than that?
SPEAKER_03If it wasn't for the Lord, if it wasn't for the Lord view of life, yeah, whatever do you it would be it would be a different story, and so we're thankful for that, and that we know that he's he's made in the image of God. And um we you know, we talked about expectations a little bit. I think she explained kind of where she's coming from. For me, it was a little bit different. When I'm a dad, I'm gonna have a son, right? I want him to, is he gonna play baseball? Is he gonna you know go to the same college I went to, play at a high level? You know, all those things are in your mind when you're like, yeah, my firstborn son, you know, is gonna do all these things. And I think um the Lord knew that this would be a great thing for my own heart. Um lay aside all of the things. Well, not even that, it's like those things are those things don't matter, you know, in the scheme of eternity. And um we've got to see Rhodes enjoy sports with family at this point. He's not old enough to plan teams, but you know, he gets to enjoy all those things at the level that he can enjoy them, and we can sit back as parents and watch him um and just have fun and not treat it um as the end of the world, and that if he doesn't get a college scholarship, you know, it's changed our view and expectation though for all of our kids that we have now or to come.
SPEAKER_00Like, none of those things matter. Like, why isn't it that we just care about their relationship with the Lord? Um, so it definitely has definitely put so many things in our life in perspective for the best reasons.
SPEAKER_03And that's not to say that we don't have expectations for him. I think we don't have expectations in these areas. It's like, you know, if he doesn't become a college golfer or a college baseball player or some sport or someone, honorable soon, if he doesn't achieve those things, then he's he's not he's you know not accomplishing what we think he should accomplish. I think we don't care about those things as much. We want him to enjoy, you know, whatever he does. But we do have expectations of him as a son to obey his parents, and we're training him the same way we're training our other sons who who might understand the first time you tell them, and we know they're being defiant. Rhodes is a little bit different in that regard, but he knows and understands for the most part, and he can through repetition and clarity come to understand what we're teaching him. Um he has different methods of learning, and and I'm sure Shannon can talk about you know all the songs he sings and verses he memorizes, but he learns like any other kid at his own pace, and so we're not gonna be unfaithful in training him to uh and like honor his father and mother and and obey and treat others with kindness and ask for forgiveness and you know, all of those things. And so um from that, our expectations are high. And I think higher than most people give credit to kids with special needs. I think it's easy to say they have special needs and the expectations are low. Um, but we we have high expectations for his behavior and want to maximize that and do all we can to make sure that he understands what God's word says and that he will one day, you know, in whatever capacity he can understand the gospel, um Jesus. I mean, his favorite word is Messiah. I mean, he knows Messiah is walk around the house thing, Messiah. Messiah's Messiah all the time, so I think we're hope we're hopeful that he he'll have an understanding of the gospel um soon, and and we're gonna continue to train in that regard.
SPEAKER_01That's so important. I was gonna ask you guys to expand on that, and um you basically already did, but I want to add to it and get your feedback on this. You'll have people watching or listening who are are experiencing any level of special needs challenges on the spectrum of Down syndrome, and then you have autism. Well, you can go on and on. There's so many. And how important is it for parents to look at their individual home, their individual child, their family, and then tailor the expectations based on their child? For example, Rhodes is you know, you could say he's high functioning and he gets after it, but then you go, well, how much of that is actually because Ryan and Shayna have a bar of achievementslash excellence and expectation, but it's for him. It's not comparable to anyone else. It's not even about comparison, it's for Rhodes. And then, you know, other parents, they have to know their child and know their child's needs, and then again set the bar of of the bar of standard or the bar of expectation for that child. Is it important for each family with their own unique needs to look at their own child, but then also be honest with themselves and not just go, well, do you think that's some of human nature as well? We can get not picking on any special needs parents, but all of us can get a little lazy or a little bit, we can coddle and even have too much pity and go, well, don't pressure them. And it's almost a it actually becomes a disservice to our children. Do you see some of that at times or the temptation of that?
SPEAKER_00We when we go out, and it's just Ryan and I, or even just at home, like we're evaluating really all of our kids in parenting because every kid has strengths and weaknesses, and every kid has different ways that they learn things better, some through music, books, whatever it might be. And with Rhodes, yeah, we're we're pretty much we talk about it constantly because we'll try things, they'll work for a little bit, then they won't work, and then we're like, okay, back to the drawing board.
SPEAKER_03Um Yeah, I think um we like she said, we've we've evaluated each of our children differently and have different expectations for them. I do think that uh as a whole, our experience with Rhodes is is specifically Down syndrome, and he, you know, he is I I don't really know the baseline, but I feel like he understands at a five-year-old, he's a five-year-old, but he understands what we're trying to communicate and trying to teach him. Um I know that there's we're we're humble about the fact that there's a wide spectrum of special needs, and you know, some some children with autism might have completely different areas of of struggle, and you know, parents might be dealing with things that we've never even thought of, even though we both have children with special needs, so we're sensitive to that. And I do think it's an individual case by case um parenting uh, you know, thing that we're that we're talking about. But I do think that practically across the board, you can implement things that will help you have success in parenting, whether that's being structured in your schedule. I mean, Rhodes thrives off of his space, you know, consistent. You know, we we nap at the same time, we do those things, we eat a certain way to make sure that we're taking out some of those variables that might cause behavior issues or you know, but we've also like taught him to be flexible.
SPEAKER_00Like we always have people at our house, or we we're not like big homebodies, we're like, let's go out. And he we have to be a little more strategic and plan, and it takes a little more effort on our part, but it's always worth it. I mean, when we're like, hey, we're gonna go over to a play date, and I'm just kind of like, okay, like roads is crabby, like I'm gonna have to watch him. Like, I and I I have those thoughts, and I'm like, oh my goodness, like my cup was filled up so much, and my kids' cups were filled up, and hopefully I filled up these other mom's cups, and we're just fellowshipping together. Like, it's always worth it. But he he has learned to be flexible, but we've also learned like to tag team, keep an eye on him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, because he's Houdini.
SPEAKER_02He that's what I was gonna ask you to share about.
SPEAKER_01You gotta, so we we gotta go a couple places. So you gotta tell us about Houdini and a little bit of the home dynamic and the the amount of humor slash like all right, like those moments where you're going, okay. And then too, I do want to jump into socialization and integration and some of that as the more intentional, serious side of this. But please, please, please talk about his nickname as Houdini.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think I I I don't know if it's a common thing uh with kids with with down central. It probably is, but because we see stuff on Instagram from Down White Wonderful and even just our own experience, but he's always he's always like a little bit mischievous. Um it's always mischief, but with a smile on, and he, you know, he thinks it's funny. And so, you know, he we have to do things like um we have an enclosure basically around his bed because he will he will escape his room and his bed.
SPEAKER_00And so our house is baby proof to the max. Alarms, cameras.
SPEAKER_03You know, every door has a lock up top because he'll he could unlock it and he could be chatting with the neighbors, you know, and before you know it. So um we we've had to adapt like really practical things, like you know, putting his pajamas on backwards so he doesn't take his clothes off. Oh, it's great. You know, putting him in this like you know, zip up thing that he can't get out. He finds a way to puncture it and get through and squeeze through tiny holes and ends up in his brother's bed waking him up.
SPEAKER_00He's determined. I'll get him out. He is determined that is one of his strengths.
SPEAKER_02Does he try to get his bro to to let him out? Because they share a room. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Turner's usually calling for us, like, Mom, Dad, Rhodes is out of his bed. And Turner's like, I'm not gonna get out of my bed, but Rhodes is out of his bed.
SPEAKER_03He knows he knows the rules. He can't get up until we let him out. So he just yells for us. Yeah. But you know, it adds a dynamic that's super fun.
SPEAKER_00I know that like we catch it on camera, so we get some good laughs, and then we gotta readjust.
SPEAKER_03We want to we want him to obey, we want him to stay in his bed, and we set these these barriers up to help him, and he finds a way to circumvent them, and then we get to watch it on camera and laugh every time, and then you know, go back to training him to you know someday sleep in his bed without an enclosure, you know, to potty train and those type of things that are that are hopefully coming down the line. Um and so we're just at our own pace, and um the Lord has given us patience, I think, as parents, to just laugh at those things and know we still need to train more patience than either of you or I ever thought we would have. Like, you see how she said that? You must have been really impatient.
SPEAKER_00Well, I even had expectations for like my parenting, how it was gonna be. Um, and Rhodes has taught us to not let things go, and they're like, whatever, like they'll figure it out, but just to be lighthearted in a lot of things and be like, okay, like we need to be patient, we need to train them, and let's try training him a different way, whatever that might be. Um I love that.
SPEAKER_01Can we talk about socialization and integration? So uh in our church, and again, if people are listening or watching and they're like, well, that's not what I experienced, or well, I wouldn't do that. Again, there's a wide spectrum, but we're just talking with you and talking here. He is basically integrated at our church. Uh, the socialization, like you do play dates, you're hanging out with other families, other moms, my wife, and a lot of the other wives, and then as well, you are on the special needs ministry team now. We have a team of special needs um leaders and team members that are helping us get this ministry started as well at our church, and so all of that means lots of interaction, lots of mixed classrooms. I'm guessing he's in some sort of schooling. Yeah. And how do you approach socialization and integration as well? And then how do you incorporate faith into that? Like, does he know mom and dad are Christians and this is a gospel-centered household and all those things? Talk to us about some of that and your approach to socialization.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I would think we've never been like we're just gonna stay at home and bunker down like he's so much, so let's just stay in our safe bubble. He goes to school, he's in a typical preschool. Um, all of his peers are typical kids. Um, his teacher not super familiar with special needs, but have just been willing. That's like the biggest thing is like when people are willing and are just like, hey, like, how can we support him? What are the things that he might need? And I try and preempt that and just be like, here's some things that like when Rhodes is, you know, I don't know, has has too much special or there's just too much going on, he's overwhelmed. Like, try these things. So I try and be proactive and like the adults that he's around, like, hey, here's some tips and tricks that will help him. Um, and then we've been super blessed with just friends who talk to their kids about roads. I mean, I think of Titus, like he's your son, like he's always so helpful with roads, and it's just like, come on, Rhodes, like let's come do this. So yeah, having kids around Rhodes that are a little bit older and that love him and like want to help him has been so sweet. But even his brother, like Turner, is like wants to hold his hand and they love each other so much. And so I think we talk about it. I tell Rhodes, okay, we're gonna go to a play date, we're gonna go do these things. And I like I would Turner. Now with Rhodes, I have to watch him a little bit more, but we've just tried to live the life that we've imagined for our family, to be involved in church, to fellowship with people, to go to Bible study, because we we don't think Rhodes needs to be because he has special needs, that it should be a hindrance to those things that the Lord has called us to do, to be in fellowship with Christians. We can find babysitters. Yeah, it might take, we got to find a babysitter that's confident in dealing with Rhodes and helping him and doing these things, but they're out there. It takes more work sometimes. But like us as special needs moms, we can sometimes wear this like badge of honor of like nobody gets it. Like nobody else has a kid with special needs. They can't understand, but we it's a it's a I I admit that it's been a pride thing in the past. Like, no, like I have people who love me and who want to pour into me. We have friends who want to serve us and come into our home and be like, we'll come to you, it's easier, whatever. And like I've had to just be like, yeah, like you're right. Like, I I just need to let you love me and be good with that and not just be prideful and be like, you don't get it. Like, you don't know what it's like, it's hard, he's a handful, he's messy where he eats. Like, I don't want him to make a mess in your house, whatever it is, but to just be like, no, like when they say, like, no, come over, we don't care, they they mean that.
SPEAKER_01I think so much of that is what Christian fellowship is. That would be the difference between people that are in the world, unbelievers or hunker down, or Christians who are insecure or prideful, and even the the subtle pride of like nobody gets me, nobody so it's the pity party pride. And we're feeling sorry for ourselves when really there are so many believers. Like if we're true believers, yeah, we want to be together, we want to help, we want to love. It's actually not a thing to lay ourselves down, it's not inconvenient. Yeah, nope, not even to bother to drive further. Nope, let's do it because that's what we do because Christ did that. I think that's so important. Do you some of the questions I'm asking are dumbed down on purpose, and here's why. I think a lot of people are ignorant. So, one, you have the young couple that's going through what you're going through, and she or he are like, what do we do? Like, do you not see everybody? Is he gonna like go to school one day? It's all these questions that you need to be allowed to say, like, what do I do? And then there's a whole other group of people that are either not aware of this or they're insecure because they're ignorant and they're going, Yeah, I hope someone else will talk about this and answer the really basic questions because I still have no clue. Like, do you like what do you still go to bed at normal? Like, what do you do? And you're like, this isn't, you know, now some people have 24-hour care, and there are non-verbal special needs kids, and there are children that are completely immobile, and so there is that, but for others, it's a spectrum.
SPEAKER_00But even in those situations, like that's when the church needs to be going out and like we'll come meet you, we'll do whatever, and people are willing to do that, and we need to like welcome that, and also like the church, there have there's been instances where it's like people do need to be willing, like we need to love others, and and I also think like we talk about this a lot, like we also were once not special needs parents or weren't comfortable with it, like we didn't know how to interact, we didn't know like what things do you say, what things do you not say. Um, and so just just being okay with when people come up to you and ask questions, like they're most of the times really trying to be sweet and kind.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna ask Ryan because you're so I mean this as a compliment. I know you pretty well. You are a very loving sacrificial. I mean, you're a deacon at our church, you're very subservient. You love to just you lay yourself down for others. I've seen that, you've done it for me for our church constantly. However, I would say like mushy sensitivity. I don't go, I don't need to like go to you if you'll cry for me or with me. I come to you though, and I'm gonna get hard, clear, loving truth. That's the way you love. How can that be a benefit for people? Like, what would you say, just all the sensitivities aside and trying to tread around or worry what someone thinks? What would you tell someone who's like, yeah, I'm ignorant, I don't know what to do. How should they approach you? Like, what should you ask how?
SPEAKER_03That's a good question. I think we're not sensitive at all in terms of you know, oh, if you say the wrong, if you refer to them a specific way or we're not offended by anything. So I think I think that's there's this culture that's created of like oversensitivity about everything, and and that extends beyond special needs into other areas of life where you can't refer to people, you know, in specific ways without everybody freaking out. And so people like tread super carefully, and it's it's honestly something that we're pumped to talk about, usually. And I think um not that Rhodes is always easy, um, and I think that there's times where we struggle with certain aspects of parenting him, but he makes us sweat sometimes, I just especially in the hot summers. I just think that people can talk freely um and ask us, you know, hey, you know, I used to think it was um difficult to to tell people that my son had Down syndrome. Like it was gonna be a bomb I was dropping when I'm like, Like how would you say you're like, hey, I have three kids, yeah. And you know, my oldest son has Down syndrome, and then you know, my other two are adopted and they don't look like me. It's like this big swinging. Yeah, so it's like how do you drop that bomb? Because people are usually uncomfortable with it. But the reality is he's just a normal kid, and and as many of our teachers at our church probably know, like he yeah, they they bear with the fact that he might be a couple years behind um intellectually. But he is he still is a member of that class, and it actually is a huge benefit to him in his growth because he sees these kids doing other things. And and so for the for those who don't want to address it or don't want to get, you know, try and see if they can get uh another family with special needs get involved in student ministry or just integrate it into the church at large, it's it's not helpful for that kid because they get to look up to, I mean, he looks up to his younger brother now, and he wants to do what his younger brother does. And that has been huge for his speech, for all of his mental development, all those things. So I think just welcoming what could be an uncomfortable conversation uh with somebody is is awesome. Most people, I hope, would be like us and be like, we'd love to talk about it. Yeah, we're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00And even just like happy to answer questions or starting it and just being like, I don't want to say the wrong thing and offend you, but like I just want to know more. Like, I'm super interested in your family, they're your kids are beautiful, whatever it is, or even just like as simple as like smiling, like look Rhodes or whatever person or child it is, like look them in the eyes and say hi. Like I I love that. I love when we're out and about and people are talking to Rhodes or my kids, and they'll walk away and be like, that little boy had Down syndrome. I'm like, Yeah, he did. Like that stuff doesn't bother me, and honestly, I people have been so kind and loving. Yeah, we've had you know different instances, and you're just like, it's okay, like you just gotta let it go.
SPEAKER_03Um I think it's fun to see the other kids interact with roads at church too. I think it's good for them, obviously. And as parents training them to know how to interact with kids with special needs and like care for them and look out for them, so like we you know, we teach Turner, like you're gonna need to protect your brother at some level. Like, be a you're you're the little brother, but you're the big brother. He thinks he's the big brother, he's bigger, too. So take care of him, and and even your kids being around roads, it's like they're gonna take care of him, and you're gonna teach your kids that you know he he might be intellectually a little bit on a different playing field than them, but they need to look out for him in these situations, and it's it's a good opportunity for them to care for somebody else in a way that's unique. It's loving your neighbor, I don't know. Christian community, yeah, and it's and it's fun to see, like they're you know, on Sundays, they're throwing the ball around with Rhodes, he's running around with all the kids, like it's the greatest thing ever. So um, I think it's a good opportunity for parents even to have their kids um like introducing kids with special needs to your family and saying, hey, you know, he has special needs. This is you know, he's just like he's just a kid, you know, just go interact with them.
SPEAKER_00Especially as Christians, it's like, well, we believe, you know, that every life is valuable and created in the Lord's image, but we're not showing our kids that, like, look how God made us all so different. I mean, we talk about that with our boys. Like, isn't it so cool that Rhodes and Daddy have blue eyes and Turner and mommy both have curly hair, but it's different colors, curly hair and all these things. And it's like, no, like, we don't need to keep our kids like sheltered from these things. These are things that like glorify the Lord. So, like, let's talk about them, let's praise them.
SPEAKER_01I love that. What resources do you guys recommend if someone's watching this, they're learning, they're going, okay, this is I need help. Uh, I am ignorant and it's okay, you know, they're they're getting honest. Where would you send them to begin reading, to begin researching? Obviously, social media is very helpful nowadays. It can be a dumpster fire, but all in all, like, where would you send them? What pages, what resources, what websites?
SPEAKER_03There's not there's not many, I think, that I would be like, oh yeah, this one is the best one. Um, I think that you can talk about Instagram and social media, but we read like generic books on Down syndrome, they weren't super helpful. I think maybe from like a scientific perspective, you can learn about what Down syndrome is and all those things. But again, every kid is different, you know. Rhodes didn't have heart issues, he had vision issues, and so we were we're dealing with that. It's super unique compared to the kid who who might need heart surgery or some other issue, you know.
SPEAKER_00So there's those scientific things we did research and like, yeah, we read the books and consulted with doctors, but the like parenting and the training and the Christian-centered stuff, there's not a lot out there. And that was that was kind of discouraging. Um, and that's why I said, like, I talked with Kelsey with Downright Wonderful. We talked with our parents too. I mean, they had both taught parenting classes, and just it just because Rhodes has special needs, it doesn't keep me from even asking other moms, like, hey, do you guys have any ideas of like things that could help? And because kids all learn and are trained different ways, and like I have taken things from other moms, like, oh yeah, like that would totally work for Rhodes. Yeah. Um, learning the books of the Bible or learning what it means to obey those types of things. Let's do them in song. Let's yeah, you know, um, catechism, okay, like Turner, we can read the book and like he can answer the questions back and forth. Rhodes needs it put in a song form, or he loves reading books and those types of things. So we have just kind of like had to tweak it ourselves. Yeah, I said Johnny Erickson Tata, Johnny and Friends, they're a huge resource. You can do family retreats. She has pamphlets on so many different special needs. Um, so I would say she's probably one of the biggest Christian resources for families. And then, yeah, social media.
SPEAKER_03I do, I do think too, there's a whole element that we haven't talked about, which is like what is available to you in the state you live in. Oh, yeah. You know, social programs and things like that. Is there opportunities for you to, you know, get respite care for your son or daughter that is basically paid for by the state? Or you know, how do you there's no I don't even know. We just kind of walked through it and called people and are researching things online for that type of stuff. Yep. Um but I would say find if you can find people, connect with them on social media and ask questions. Um, I think you know, we're available to to be reached. I mean, Shayna loves talking about this stuff, so I think um Instagram or you know, we can we can get an email out there or something to to correspond with anybody who wants to know how to navigate. Hey, we're we just had a prenatal diagnosis. Like, what do we expect um before giving birth or what's it like raising a son with Down syndrome? Because we're still learning and we're just five years ahead of the person who's giving birth now, so we'll have we'll have continued um you know challenges as as road gets older. I think right now we're st we're trying to figure out how to navigate um roads at the stage he's in and our younger sons and their development and making sure that we're balanced in our approach, focusing on them, making sure that you know Turner gets to um be doing things that will help him grow, you know, like getting involved in in sports or team activities or things like that that are challenging for him.
SPEAKER_00Special dates with his dad or play dates with other older boys.
SPEAKER_03Because that does happen where uh we've we've been in a phase where um Turner has been you know comparable to Rhodes in terms of the things they like to do, play with, etc. And now we're getting to a stage where um we need to let him also focus on him, parenting him in a unique way and letting him, you know, achieve and have expectations of of him that go beyond where Rhodes is at physically and mentally right now. And so, and it'll be the same with Hansen with our third son as he gets older, and you know, eventually him and Rhodes will be best friends for a time, and that'll be fun. And then um, but just making sure that your other children are also getting the attention and parenting that they need to know and understand the gospel and and be able to grow up, um, you know, understanding the word of God so that hopefully, you know, the Lord captures their heart and they they and we don't want them to ever resent Rhodes, like he got special treatment or he got more attention.
SPEAKER_00Like we're we're very conscious of that, and like we we want them to love their brother and to protect him because they love him, not because mom and dad said you need to protect him, you need to watch out for him, but like that that's really like their desire, so cultivating that in their hearts, and that's not something that's just gonna be like something we say, but it's something we have to practice with them.
SPEAKER_01I love that. So, are you guys gonna start a an Instagram account? You've been very non-social media and you're better for it. There's the only reason that we're all on it is for the gospel and to try to get truth into people's phones because they're on them all day. But have you guys thought through how to help other couples and potentially the need requiring some level or mandating some requiring?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've been we've been praying about it a lot because uh we've been very private, other than our um, I don't know if you you know about our viral, we had a viral video.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you guys, so Turner and Rhodes had a viral video.
SPEAKER_00That's when we went dark.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yes. You just so tell we you should tell people about that. So you're you in the backyard, normal things like I got a thousand of these videos on my phone. One gets hurt and bro gives them a hug, but uh Family member was filming one of the other siblings, right? Or one of the in-law, like one of the sister-in-laws or someone, right? Or your siblings?
SPEAKER_00No, I was filming and it got posted by my brother.
SPEAKER_02Oh, one of your family members posted the video.
SPEAKER_00It was well meaning. It just and it took off.
SPEAKER_02Didn't it end up on like Good Morning America or stuff like that?
SPEAKER_00We found out at like 20,000 views, and then there was like no 20 million views. I don't know. There was like no coming back from it, and we were like, okay, and we pretty much deleted everything. We were just like, oh my gosh, this is.
SPEAKER_01You got off of it. And that too, like with so adoption, yeah. Everything. You're just trying to live your life, serve the Lord, and there's some levels of privacy that needed to happen there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So we've been we've been debating it because I think I'm not a huge fan of every element of social media, and that I do think people are very distracted and can get caught up in you know being on scrolling all day long. And so we've been debating like, hey, is this something that we should even consider doing?
SPEAKER_00Well, we were like, social media, do we do like a website? Like, I'm probably talking to a mom once a week, every other week, of about you know, a special needs diagnosis, or it's a grandma who has a grandkid who is about to be born, and my mom's like, Hey, can you talk to my girlfriend? And I'm like, Of course. Um, like, how can I help my daughter or my daughter?
SPEAKER_01It doesn't even include the adoption. Yeah, and then I get the adoption deal with it.
SPEAKER_00And there are two favorite things to talk about. Like, I I will take two hours during my kid's nap time and full laundry and talk to a mom. It's my favorite because I'm like, there aren't a lot of resources. Like, where do you go?
SPEAKER_03And so we've we've been praying about it, and we're like, We have one behind the scenes that we've been prepping with content and and stuff. Let's go just kidding. Help people out. We got maybe maybe five or six photos posted, but I think I think we would we were gonna go live with that with an Instagram that is that is open to the public because we want to get connected to um people that need help because obviously it's not only it's fun to connect with other people that are raising kids at the same time, it's why the local church is awesome to be parenting alongside you know other parents. Um, but it's just a way that we can connect with with people that don't know what to expect. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you said something the other day, you were like, people go to social media more than they go to Google, and that was me. I went and looked up Down syndrome on Instagram after I did go to Google, and I was like, nope, this is not what I want. And so we're like, okay, how can we be that for people?
SPEAKER_03Well, there's a practical element too that's like, hey, what are you doing for his bed enclosure? Or like, how do you keep sure? Hey, like, what are you guys doing to keep his clothes on at night so that he doesn't, you know, take his take his pajamas off and his diaper off and all that fun stuff.
SPEAKER_01How do you get him to eat vegetables or normal questions that people need resources for? Absolutely. I think today, if the apostle Paul was still alive, I 100% think the Apostle Paul would be on Instagram and he would be answering people's questions. And I think he would put out constant truth, and I think he would preach the gospel. I think that that would be one of the ways in which he would invade. So in the biblical times, they would invade the city square when you got into a town. Where would you go? You would go to one of the synagogues, you go to where people are congregating to either exchange information, debate, or search for truth. I think that I don't think he would be wasting time. I think he would post and ghost, but he would drop bombs of truth and get into people's lives where they are somehow.
SPEAKER_00We had talked about with my parents and we were home for Christmas, and my dad was like, There's always been some form of social media, whatever, you know, going to talk in the square or it was newspapers, the printing press, radio, and all those things. And my my dad's always like, Are you being expendable for Christ? If you do this, are you being expendable for Christ? And I'm like, Okay, that's all I I'm not a big social media person. This terrifies me a little bit. I like my safe little bubble, but like, okay, the only reason we're here on earth is to be expendable for Christ. And if we can do that with special needs and adoption, then like, okay, Lord, like we'll do it.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's cool because we've got to see the people that we've influenced just in our circle of friendships do adoptions and get placements with with kids. And I I don't know if it's just because we you know, it's obviously people want to contact people that have done something before, but I mean, if so if if if it continues at this pace, so many of our friends are gonna have uh do adoptions and have kids and add it to their family and grow their family that way. And that's super fun to see. Yeah, um, and we love it, and it's been a blessing, and we get to walk around and people kind of look at us like you know, I don't know w what they're what they're looking at. We have Down syndrome and different races, and you guys are fun so we could be looking crazy. Yeah, or yeah, who knows? We look tired and haggard. So um we just smile though. It's been fun, and I think that um creating some content if we can, and just even saying, hey, here's a good site if you're looking. I mean, we brought in some people on Sunday mornings to talk about adoption at booths and things like that. And so if we can vet some of those things um with regards to special needs opportunities and adoption, I mean we have respite care, and we've we've got people from our church involved in that process so that they get to come to our house and watch our kids and they're ministering to us and we get to minister to them like while they're in our home, and it's it's pretty special.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we that's the stuff that's real. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It was um one of our contributions. You guys know Tony, Pastor Tony and his wife Brie. So Tony told me years ago with social media and for the gospel and different stuff. He said, no matter what, if you do something like this, the the way that the Lord does it genuinely, and how a Christian and a minister and people like you guys who are ministers, who are on the front lines, should view social media, is it works inside out. A lot of people in this generation are trying to work outside in. It's like I get an Instagram account to become famous, to help people, to do this. You have all these dreams, but you're doing none of it in your local church. I think what is so exciting and encouraging, and this is what we try to do it for the gospel, everyone involved is doing this already in their local church. You're already answering questions, preaching the word, discipling. You guys are already helping people understand adoption, ministering to your mom's friend. You take phone calls, it's a text. And when you're doing that already, then it's a little bit easier than to justify or see how, okay, we're gonna add this medium, which that's all it is, as a way to do what we've already been doing privately. And that is another healthy reminder that Jesus builds the church, it works inside out. Believers strengthen one another, we encourage one another, and then because we've been given media, we use that then to reach others and to love the extended family in the body of Christ, but you're already doing it, and I think that's another example to people is you know, if someone's listening and watching, and think that's so cool. Like, I want to be downright wonderful, and or I want to be Ryan and Shane, I want to go viral. Like, we totally have cute moments, and we this, and uh you be careful with the ambitions. Do you actually want to help people? Do you want to be expendable for Christ? What's your motive and why are you doing it? I think that's the exciting part is seeing for years you guys have helped folks, and I'm I'm excited to see the way the Lord keeps using you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think I think our intention is is pure in the sense that we want to help people. It's not about being an influencer or anything like that. Who knows? We could have you know a thousand followers, it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_03So I think our goal is really to all follow you. Thank you. You have one. I don't have one follower. I just I don't know. We just want to be able to talk to people that need some advice or counsel, and we've we've walked as far as we walked so far, and we're gonna continue to learn um as time goes on.
SPEAKER_00So just yeah, just being able to give I I think I'm usually talking to moms more. Um so just like encouraging moms and just you know giving them scripture, and I'm like, I was Psalms 33:4, like that was what I clung to when I was pregnant with Rhodes. And then like the hymn I surrender all, like on my knees, like crying out to the Lord, and like just being able to have those conversations with moms. Like, I love looking back at my text messages and seeing these pictures of these other babies who were born with Down syndrome and their moms being like, I'm terrified out, I don't know. And then six months later being like, Oh my gosh, like I I can't believe I called you in tears. Like, you were right, and it's not, it wasn't me, it was it was definitely the Lord. Um, but those are some of my favorite things, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01Love it. Well, thankful for you both, proud of you both, and love watching the Lord use you for his glory with all of this. Grateful, really grateful. Thanks for listening. I hope this interview has been a blessing to you. For more free resources, go to www.forthegospel.org. Be sure also to follow us on all social media platforms and subscribe on YouTube for free video content. Also, don't forget this interview is in video format on our YouTube channel. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.