Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and on this special episode, I've got an incredible interview for you. Our guest is gonna join us right here in just a few seconds. His name is Owen Stran, affectionately known in my life as the Doctor or just bro. He's awesome. He's a great guy, a dear brother, and a wonderful friend, a man of courage and a man who loves the scriptures. I've asked him to come on to speak to some key issues in the culture and surrounding the church today. So if you will, welcome Owen Strand with me. Brother, thank you for being on the For the Gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_01Hey Costi, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, man.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, what's the latest and greatest uh book projects, ministry, things you're excited about? And then let's jump into some important topic matter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you for asking. I've got two books coming out uh in coming months. I've got a book on manhood called The War on Men that comes out with Salem in October 2023. Should be out uh at G3 for those who are going to G3. And then uh I've got a book on the Atonement, a doctrine of the Atonement, coming out in January 2024. And uh really excited about these two projects. The Lord has been really kind to let me write. It's been a really busy last 18 months for me uh of the two projects leapfrogging one another in terms of editing and so on, but we are almost there, so praise God.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. I have had the privilege of reading the War on Men and endorsing it, and it was really well done. I'm excited for our men at our church and those in the orbit of our ministry to get that book. You did a really good job on it, brother. And in that vein, I want to bring up a few topics with you that are gonna circle around and weave into manhood, but also issues of womanhood. The first question I have for you is on 1 Corinthians 11, 2 to 16, head coverings and all of that. It's a hot topic these days, lots of confusion, but also what I'm hearing from people, lots of willingness to listen and learn. I spoke with one brother recently who humbly just said to me, Hey, I come to this issue with no bias. I just want to be right with the Lord. I want to be in line with God's word. Is this an issue of public command or private conviction? Big topic. It's all over the place. So could you walk us through first and foremost on the issue of womanhood, head coverings, order, all of that? How would we apply this issue? Some people mandate head coverings, others don't. Help us think through this biblically.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a really tough issue, frankly, uh Costi, one of the toughest in terms of exegesis. This is the kind of passage that in a seminary classroom, in a Greek exegesis class, a professor will throw at his students, and uh, you know, you try to reason it out for some time because the passage, uh 1 Corinthians 11, 2 to 16, takes some fascinating twists and turns. So let that be said from the outset. Uh, second thing to say is that at the end of this chapter, Paul tells the Corinthians that this is not something to be contentious about. So that's a very important framing word. Paul is giving pastoral guidance, and that matters. We're not playing that soft in terms of it not being the word of God or something like that. But Paul is saying, hey, just FYI, I'm speaking into your situation, but I don't want you to freak out over this. I don't want you to divide over this. Honestly, I think if we're reading Paul and interpreting him, he's saying, don't divide over this, really. What I think Paul is teaching in 1 Corinthians 11 on head coverings is basically that um the Corinthian women are in a compromise culture, and Paul wants them to mark themselves out as women. He wants men to look distinct from women. That's to the glory of God. He wants women even to image that they are made from man in terms of Adam and Eve, and so the wife is submissive to her husband and distinct from him in a God-glorifying way. And so if you follow the passage all the way through, you and I could talk about this for two hours, three hours at length. But if you follow the passage all the way through, you see at the end that um Paul uses uh the term covering in the noun form in verses 14 and 15 to describe the woman's long hair. We're not talking about a woman who has cancer tragically or something like that, and saying she's in sin because she can't grow her hair long, but what Paul is laying out for the Corinthians, and I think beyond the Corinthian church, even into our day, is that to a woman's fullest ability, she images the glory of God, her God-given beauty and distinctiveness and a joyful spirit by having her hair long. And that is, I believe, what functions as her covering. Some disagree over this, Costi, as you know, some say no, it's kind of a shawl or a sort of distinctive covering, a scarf or something like that that a woman wears in her hair. I would say, honestly, from this tough passage, that's a possible interpretation. I wouldn't want to say a woman who's doing that is in sin or something like that. But I do think we've got to be careful about making head coverings, whatever your view, the test of biblical womanhood. That's not what Paul does. That is what some of our peers are doing, and they're causing some confusion along those lines. And I have real concerns about that, as I think you do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and this is one of my favorite things about you. There's a number of wonderful things that I've gotten from you, if you will, benefit from as a friend and brothers. And one of the things that I love is your pastoral and practical heart. You are fair, you're measured. I appreciate the comment about women with cancer and even the way that you approach this issue. What I've noticed, if you read different writings from, you know, you look at what MacArthur has said on it, or what Sprohl has said on it, or Piper, the fact that good godly theologians, even others I haven't even named, and different pastors from all sorts of streams of thought have differed on this issue, but we've never heard about the head covering war of 1978 or 2001. Good godly men have differed and worked this out practically. Would you say there's more of a uh a conviction-driven approach by some, and that's a personal thing, not a public command, and that we should just work this out in the local church generally?
SPEAKER_01I do. We've got um we've got voices like Dale Partridge and Joel Webbin and some others who are bringing this issue up, and it is a textual issue, so it's a valid thing to engage. But I have some concerns with how these men and others are framing the issue. And um it's possible for us to want to take scripture seriously and apply it faithfully, but crank the dial up on biblical manhood and biblical womanhood up in such a way that we almost shout louder than the scripture shouts. And we lose some of the gray area and the complexity and the nuance. For example, what I alluded to, this isn't me being a softy, um, what I alluded to with Paul saying, this is not an issue I want you to be contentious over at the end of 1 Corinthians 11, signals to us to handle this with care. And again, to repeat, not make this the test of biblical womanhood. I believe, with I think valid justification from the Bible, that a woman's long hair is her covering. That's the only point in the passage Paul uses that noun in the Greek for covering. He he uses participles and other forms of grammar earlier in the passage, but when he narrows in at the end of the passage, having sifted out some difficult matters, should a woman shave her head, I think he's being hyperbolic there in verses uh five and six. At the end of the matter, he says, a woman's long hair is given her for her covering. So um that's what I think is a valid uh view. Yes, Christians in church history uh have have held to a kind of shawl or scarf covering the head. I get that. Uh a lot of good theologians and pastors have argued for that. I would just uh summarize my remarks by saying we've got to be careful that we don't go to some of the more confusing or um tough to handle passages and doctrines and then ramp those up and make those the test of faithfulness in the area of biblical womanhood or anywhere else. Uh we want to major in the clear, uh, we want to find unity in what is what is clear, and then we want to grant charity and not make litmus tests unnecessarily in what is a little bit harder to figure out.
SPEAKER_00So helpful. Okay. In the same vein, then, regarding uh issues of manhood, issues of womanhood roles. There are now three very loud positions being fought for in the public square, and I'm gonna put that in air quotes, the public square online. Um they are right now, as I've seen them, heard them, and even deal with them in our local church and at for the gospel and with listeners, we've got egalitarianism, that's sort of an old foe, if you will, of complementarianism, which is the second position. And those are the classic debated views, of course, egalitarian egalitarianism being that you know women are in a sense able to, they could be the head of the home, they could be the provider, you could have, you know, daddy, stay-at-home dad, daddy daycare, all of that. And you could have women pastors, and I always think and it's easy for people if that's a new term for them, egalitarianism. Just think egal, equal, just visually and and even auditorially. But complementarianism would be the complementary ways that the different unique roles of manhood and womanhood are designed by God to complement one another. We're spiritual equals, but we're designed distinctly by God's perfect plan. And there is a third position that's got a lot of noise and traction now. And some people are are wondering, is what is this? You some people don't even know the name of it. So, patriarchy is gonna be a third category. And to clarify this, and I you can help me with this as well, wouldn't to the patriarchal view in its most extreme form, you would technically be a soft complementarian. A soft complementarian, as some would have it. And you've written books on this, uh, you've studied deep and wide on it. You have a number of works on this issue. Can you explain each one briefly, even further than what I've offered? Then unpack the primary differences, even between and specifically between patriarchy as it's being propagated now, and complementarianism.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you laid them out basically uh in a way that I can affirm. Um, egalitarianism is the view that basically the roles are interchangeable. So the husband is not head of the wife, there's mutual headship in the church, men alone are not the elders and shepherds and pastors of the church, women are as well. And so the sexes uh are equal in terms of the image of God, and there's no distinction of roles. Complementarity argues that the sexes absolutely are ontologically equal in terms of being image bearers made by God, invested with tremendous dignity, worth, and purpose. And yet, when it comes to who leads the home, who leads the church, and who steps up in society, um, it's men who are called by God to do that, not to keep women down or something like this, not because women are lesser than men in any way. Uh women, in fact, are a helper to men, indicating that in the biblical worldview they bring real strengths to the table that men do not have. Um, but nonetheless, men are called to those leadership roles. Patriarchy is similar to complementarity, it's not tremendously different, uh, frankly, although I would say it is um, yeah, it's a more maximalist understanding of what I was just talking about with those roles, including some views like, at least for some patriarchalists, um, men are the head of the home, and that manifests in a society like ours in that they vote and women don't vote. Uh, in some patriarchal circles, women don't teach in any form, really, um in any kind of women's ministry, for lack of a better term, or something like that. Men alone do that. Um there there is some head covering views and that sort of thing that proliferate among patriarchalists. Um we could lay out some other uh disagreements as well, but those are the those are the core. And yeah, we're seeing a surge of uh patriarchy in our day. I want to be very clear and careful though, even before I register disagreement with some elements of patriarchy, some things I disagree, some things I agree with, there's a lot of men and women who have been raised today, let's say America, without any conception of what it means to be a man or a woman. Okay? And then they become Christian, uh, born again of the gospel of Jesus Christ, trusting in the blood and resurrection of Christ for their salvation, and um repenting of all their sin. And there's teachers out there in um those, especially those last two camps, uh, who help them, uh who provide guidance, uh, who clarify distinctions between the sexes and matters like that. And they, these men and women who are saved, let's say some of them out of non-Christian backgrounds or broken homes or or maybe intact homes, but where there wasn't discipleship about manhood or womanhood, and and there's a framework given uh in certain settings and churches and and by different teachers. And I don't want to burn down anyone, either to the left or right of me in terms of gospel conviction. Um, I want to be careful. So even with our previous um uh conversation topic, head coverings, I'm not burning down uh women who would be more in the patriarchal camp and want to be faithful to God. Um but I would say, uh, and we can tease this out as you see fit, that there are some issues uh over which I would split uh with patriarchalists and that we need to be careful about, even as there are definitely issues that I would uh differ with uh soft complementarians on. I find myself in kind of what is called a strong complementarian position, for lack of a better term. None of these terms is perfect, Costi. All of them have weaknesses, but that's where I find myself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really helpful. What are the things that are very attractive? Let's speak, you know, to the culture and even the state of the church today. What has become so attractive about the patriarchal view? Is it we're sick of soft men? I mean, are we tired of passive government? Is it all of the above? And I would speak to this issue, and I come to this issue as a very aggressive, now godly, now saved. But I the Lord has sanctified me in various ways. We all have certain things as men that he has to temper. Um, I don't, I wouldn't be more on the passive side, I would be more aggressive. I like manly things, I like sports that hit, I like to even now I would enjoy putting out some mats and doing jujitsu. I've rolled with my guys before in our Bible studies, and we our wives just laugh as if we're kind of crazy in that way. And I love hockey. And at the same time, you know, for me, I'm I'm still drawn to the meekness of Christ and these I need self-control and I need to be tempered, I need strength under control because otherwise we nuke everything. The what you've often referred to with me behind closed doors, scorched earth. We have to use wisdom and be tempered. What is it overall that has caused this resurgence of, you know, we're we're into fitness, deadlifting, squatting, men are getting healthy. These are good things. Uh, there's a resurgence in hunting, in homesteading, and in growing beards and in being loud and strong, masculine men in these ways. What's drawing that? And then maybe let's segue into what are some of the ditches to be careful of for all of us as men.
SPEAKER_01I love these questions. Great questions. And when the war on men releases, hopefully we can dig a little bit more into manhood, should you so desire.
SPEAKER_00We'll do it again, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so I'm only gonna give you 13% here. Uh, sorry. Just kidding. Um what I would say is we're in a day, Costi, not just on this issue, where um there's a lot of reaction to our culture, and a good bit of that reaction uh is at the very least understandable in human terms. Um this is a huge topic, uh, but we're seeing a reaction to softness in among among professing Christians in the area of biblical manhood, biblical womanhood, government, eschatology, public square engagement. And I am not enfranchising all such responses to softness by any stretch. But it is true that in the culture uh there has been a war on men, and it is true that in the church um there are a good number of churches that have gone quiet about major issues. And that is even true of some in the reformed world who used to speak up on hard issues and used to step up to the front line and define things, and and and yes, we don't only want to speak negatively, um, but they were willing to say that is not right, even as they were probably more invested in, as we should be, in holding out what is good, beautiful, and true uh from God and his word. But because we're in a leadership crisis, I would say, even in the reformed world, that has created a vacuum in a number of areas. And this is tragic to say, but a number of the fathers, so to speak, uh of the older generation just aren't speaking as much as they used to. What that has meant is that there is now a very vocal, young, upstart group that is fed up and frustrated with the old ways, and that is being very vocal and bold and uh uncompromising in what they stand for. And again, we've put a lot on the table here, but there's some of that response that I very much understand and even affirm. But then as we're talking about numerous categories of theology in the Christian life, there's some of that response that I can't affirm, and I think we've got to be very careful about. Two, three, four years ago, a lot of the challenges that I'm currently facing, or I faced then, I should say, seemed like they were coming from the left. Now, uh, fast forward to 2023, it seems like a fair number of the challenges I'm having to deal with that I didn't even foresee are from the right. So we've got our work cut out for us. I can say more, but I'll I'll pass it back to you.
SPEAKER_00No, that's so helpful. I think that's where probably a man like you is gonna take some hits in the years ahead. I'm I'm sure I will, and and would hope that at some level we all as pastors take some hits. That means that we're in it. Because it's all good and well to go after the left and the far left and even the near left. Everyone goes, oh yeah, amen, and and we're together in this. And then there's been a right and good amount of that. I think now the course correct after the last three years now fades is well, hold on, you know, pull pull the reins a bit and let's let's not overswing as well. On that, can you speak to uh some of the noise that's been propagated now or circling on women teaching women? We hold, you and I both, a very similar view, if not the exact same view, of course, on 1 Timothy 2, 8 through 15, Paul's instructions to men, to women, their roles. Certainly we apply that and see what Paul's saying to Timothy. When the church gathers, you've got men of prayer with holy hands, without wrath or dissension. You have women being quiet and submissive, you have no women getting up to preach and take authority over the congregation. You don't have women as pastors and elders. 1 Timothy 3 then continues that with the qualifications, husband of one wife. We see the roles laid out. And then you have Titus 2, 3 through 5, and this is speaking to a woman teaching women about loving husbands, loving children, keeping home, but also teaching what is good. And so you can see some things there potentially by way of application. Of course, we know that the order for men and women, Paul roots in creation. So we have a timeless principle. We don't have uh, hey, this is Ephesus, this is the culture, now this is gonna change one day, and whatever the culture says when you're alive, do that. This is rooted in creation, that the woman was made from man and for man, and that will bother some people, undoubtedly, but it's what the Bible says. She's a helpmate and certainly a compliment to him, and he doesn't lord that over her, but he loves her. So in the church, we see significant ministry done by women. We see Paul naming Chloe and Phoebe and a number of other women who are a part of ministry in some sense. He lists names at the end of 2 Timothy 4, the end of Romans 16. You have this beautiful picture of men and women in the church in their unique, God-given, distinct roles. But there is a view now that I'm hearing in which you know women are not even supposed to or allowed to teach women theology. They only would teach homemaking. And while, of course, I advocate for that, most certainly, is there a place biblically for godly women? Women and I'm going to name one. I'm thinking of Susan Heck, who, you know, if Justin Peters thought she was off the rails, he would not go to her church. Susan Heck is beloved in the Bible church world. She's not a Beth Moore. She's not out on the circuit with Priscilla Shire. This is a dear sister that many of our churches have speak. I was just in dialogue with her. I'd love for her to come and bless some of our women and our sisters here at the church. This isn't Christine Kane or Beth Moore preaching on Mother's Day or anyone else for that matter. This is just women teaching theology in the right format and applying it to our sisters' contentment, all the like. Can you speak to that and the unique nuances we maybe need to be careful with while we hold a strong view?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I can. Wow. What a collection of uh questions and matters there. Um I would say we start from what is clear and we reason out to what is less clear. What is clear is that um pastors and elders are those who are charged with theological and spiritual oversight of the congregation. So in that sense, um uh the women's ministry of the church in a form is the preaching and teaching ministry of the church. Um we want to guard against, that is, uh, a form of women's ministry that is out there, very much out there, and that I and others have reacted to in past days, where yes, a woman has a pastor and elders, but um, she thinks of the women's ministry uh coordinator, director, teacher, whatever it may be, and whatever staff are there as really understanding her and really caring for her and really getting-real leaders, that's her real connection. Yeah, she's got a formal guy who's the pastor, but the one she really looks to uh for for spiritual vitality, whatever you want to say, is her women's ministry teacher, whatever that term is. I want to guard against that. I want to say to a man and a woman alike uh elders and pastors are the ones who are provided by God for your spiritual oversight and feeding and edification and shepherding. Okay. Um I do want to recognize uh with wind in my sails that in Titus 2, uh women are called to teach other women, older women uh to younger women, or to put it slightly differently, more mature women to less mature women. And that that teaching does center in the home, marriage, family, homemaking, these sorts of disciplines. It's very clear in the text, in Titus 2, 3 to 5, there is that phrase that you said, teach what is good. And I think that's where we get the charge from God for older women like a Susan Heck or like my mother-in-law Jody Weir, to go to different churches, let's say, and teach about contentment or godliness or prayer or something like this. Um so I think we have warrant for women doing that. They're always gonna do that in a careful way. Uh and there is where we are, by the way, Costi, in some gray area here. Um probably there's gonna be some room for disagreement among strong complementarians, among complementarians more broadly, so let that be said. Um I I would I would want to affirm everything I just said about teaching what is good. I also want to be um a little more defined than some are. I'd be a little closer to some Presbyterians, for example, who would invest uh, again, that theological teaching and oversight in the elder office. Um but I do think we have leeway for a woman to teach on those topics that we were mentioning, uh the sovereignty of God and how it applies to the seasons of a woman's life or something like this. I I'm good with that. I I think, though, a godly woman, a mature woman who is teaching, is gonna do so in a way that is not trying to present herself as a theologian in the way that a uh a man at a TMS or a GBTS or whatever it's gonna be is is presenting himself and an elder of the local church is seeing himself as. Um so there's a lot more I could say there. Um I would not be one who would be pushing women to write um commentaries or works of formal theology or that sort of thing. Again, some gray area. We have some freedom here, but I do think a godly woman is gonna teach what is good. She is also, however, going to say the mandate to teach doctrine in the clearest sense in scripture is not given to me. The mandate to teach doctrine is given to the elders. I'm gonna do that in my home, with my kids, in discipleship, and even, yes, in a in maybe a women's ministry setting. But uh but even as she does so, uh, if she does so, she's making clear um the one appointed to shepherd the church through theological teaching and spiritual oversight is the elders.
SPEAKER_00So well said, and I don't even know if there should be there, I know there is going to be, but there shouldn't be a massive amount of issue with what you just said. And here's why. I don't think we think about this enough. As a preacher, as a pastor, when I look at the men in my congregation and the women, but when I'm preaching, I view my role, no doubt, as authoritative in the preaching of God's word as far as scripture allows. However, I am not those wives' husband. I don't take lordship over them, I don't have headship over them, none of that stuff. So I I actually defer to the husbands in a sense. I pastor the church forward, but then I look to my brethren and say, Men, you need to be enacting this in your home. You need to be leading out in your homes. It's the what the Puritans used to call the little church, in a sense. We see that throughout church history in that view. So shouldn't it be all good and well when a women's ministry structure, if you will, says from uh Susan Heck, let's say, sisters, I am here to encourage you in the Lord and to encourage you in the Word of God and these things and to apply them to our lives by way of mature example. But don't get it twisted. I am not the head of this church, I'm not your key figure at this church, our elders, our pastors, and ultimately your husbands are those who enact these things. Isn't it so normal and so biblical to honor the headship in each area in its role with balance? And therefore we take great care and we don't have to think, well, you know, I'm a woman and I am a theologian, Owen, and who are you to tell me that I it's actually just honoring the spheres of authority? Is that a balanced way to view it?
SPEAKER_01I think so. I think that is balanced. Um uh the women I know who go to different churches, not their own church or or even their own church, and and speak to the women in a what we would call a women's ministry setting. Um, there's a there's a great lane for godly women who speak about prayer or speak about the sovereignty of God again in the seasons of a woman's life. This seems to be on my brain, I'm not sure why, and uh, and and help those women think that through. Um, in Titus 2, 3, just go to the text, they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, etc. and so on. What some of what some of the voices out there are are saying is that um the focus of a woman's teaching um of other women is on godly womanhood, motherhood, homemaking, family life, uh marriage, and so on. And I think that's true. So I there's there's there's slight gradations of view here, to be honest. I don't want to come out and say dogmatically, like some have, women cannot teach other women theology. Um and that's what Dale Partridge has said, I think, recently in a forum, for example, just to give one name, and then others have jumped on that as as well. I don't want to say it like that because that makes it sound like a woman could come away from that thinking. So am I not supposed to share the gospel? Am I not supposed to um teach other women uh the attribute of God's love or something, you know, even in a basic, simple form in a five-person Bible study at Starbucks or something like that? So I want to be more careful, I think. Um I also don't want to say, though, teach what is good and franchises anything you could imagine outside of local church eldership. So we really do. Third-way thinking and balanced positions got a little bit overblown in the last decade. Everything for some Tim Keller and others who did some good work, but it's a third way.
SPEAKER_00Everything was the third way.
SPEAKER_01Everything became a third way. If you've seen the book Biblical Critical Theory, um, for example, by Watkin that came out uh not long ago. Uh it's just shocking how many issues are it's not this, it's not the left, it's not the right, it's a third way. Every that's what biblical critical theory in that book amounts to being. Everything is a third way. That's not true. But we've got to watch ourselves a little bit, Costi, uh, on the conservative side. You alluded to this. Um we've got to watch out that in standing for biblical truth, we don't lose sight of being open to reason, being gentle, being meek, being filled with the fruits of the spirit, being patient, being humble, and being balanced in the right form. So uh to synthesize and close this little point down teach what is good is ordered to, training women for the woman teacher is ordered to, training women in godly womanhood, motherhood, wifedom, and more. Um, but there is the assumption, even the charge on Paul's part that that is going to involve uh gospel-driven, grace-driven, uh Bible doctrine-driven teaching ordered to those ends.
SPEAKER_00So well said. Love it. Okay. I want to shift gears to one final leg of the journey together. And I'm not asking you to give away your entire book, but I'm having you back on. And you know what we should do? We should fly you somewhere. We should get together in person and do a series of interviews on manhood and your book. I think it's super helpful. I want you to speak to this now specifically. We've got a landscape of passive leaders. We have affirmed that. We have corrupt government, we have had a massive abdication by what you refer to as the fathers, if you will, spiritually. We've got weak pulpits, uh, a great number of churches who are compromising just softness in all the wrong ways. And we loathe that. We long for men to be men of God. We train men and lead our churches with men of God and you training in the seminary. Strong, sword-wielding, masculine men are not toxic. They are good, they are a gift, they're a treasure in society and the church. But like anything, like you've said, there are extremes. When it comes to biblical manhood, can you speak to us about striking a balance between the masculine characteristics that we should have and then maintaining Christ-like character? I have heard and read recently that meekness or serving is primarily a feminine trait. I was in one conversation with a dear brother who really despises now the term servant leadership. He says we should be called servant lords if we are that way. And you have a lot of strong language and honestly, good thoughts, good dialogue to have. This is not something we run from. Considering the fact that Jesus said the Son of Man came to serve, not be served, which is where we'd get the idea of a servant leader or a sacrificial husband, and meekness is strength under control, and humility is a paramount quality in all Christians, not just women in the New Testament. Can you speak to the character of a godly man and maybe even draw some clear lines on this? Are you, should you be a meek warrior in your home? Should your wife, does she have the, you know, the Owen Strand, you know, like this is my house and I'm is that how you operate? How should we be as men? Or if you serve her, God forbid, you help her with like a dish? Have you abandoned your complimentarianism? If you go take the kids, I don't know if you have a minivan, I do. You go take the kids and pick them up somewhere, or you leave work 30 minutes early and you started 30 minutes early to go take them to piano lessons. You know, have you are you a whipped pop? You know, what is manhood and what is just uh uh an overreaching bravado? Help me, brother.
SPEAKER_01Oh, mercy. Um, well, I have I have a few minutes on this, so so uh for you know a few minutes, um, let's let's tease this out because this is a huge issue because um our culture has encouraged us to be soft men. I talk about this in this forthcoming book, The War on Men. Um, and uh this is one of just four uh deficient visions of manhood, I think we see today, and we even find in the scripture. Um to be a soft man is to be an effeminate man. It's it's to be a man in body, but not a man in calling. And um feminism uh in its various forms has absolutely transformed American society and culture, and it has caused many men to have the masculinity, the testosterone drained from them, such that uh they don't really have a mandate to lead. Uh, they don't see uh themselves as called to provide for the family. They share that 50-50 or whatever with their wife. Um, they they don't protect themselves or others, they don't train their body, 1 Corinthians 9 27, and beat it as their slave, as Paul evocatively says. So they're not stewarding their body really. There really and truly is something in the cultural water that encourages men to be passive consumers who don't grow up, who stay boy men, who are oriented to their own interests, and thus, in the context of marriage and even the church, are only there to be on the periphery and affirm, strong women and never really challenge them. When issues come up in the public square, even on social media or online or something, uh men are encouraged only to punch right and never to punch left, these sorts of things. So our brothers who are ramped up on these kinds of issues that we've been talking about are reacting to some real and very damaging trends. But I am no genius in saying what I'm about to say. Pendulums swing. It is a real phenomenon in our world. And so, in the last several years, there has been, uh, at least to a degree, a right reaction against effeminate manhood. But there is a real temptation for those who punch back against the culture that we would overdo our reaction. There is a temptation for us to be quick to speak and quick to anger. There is a temptation in the public square for us to react to an insipid public theology with a kind of shouting down others' public theology, a sort of brutalized, radicalized public theology where because Christians are laying down in the public square, we're coming to take the whole thing over, even to the degree that there would be a temptation that this radicalized uh public Christianity would start to drift away from hope in the gospel and discipling the guy at the local coffee shop and trying to be a faithful wife-understanding husband and uh doing the basics of normal Christianity, and instead would think all that stuff I just named is loser theology and deficient stuff, and instead get ramped up and say, if you're not yelling at an unbeliever in the public square somewhere and trying to Christianize America and the world, you're not even really a faithful shepherd and you're not a faithful Christian. Um that is that is a real problem, that is a real temptation. Similarly, um, there is a form of servant leadership that fits that soft, effeminate manhood paradigm I was talking about, and that I absolutely torch in my book of The War on Men. That is not the way forward. But the way forward is also not to do away with serving and not to um look down on humility and gentleness and meekness and kindness and patience, um, but to embrace the fruit of the Spirit, repent of our sin, and absolutely live with our wife in an understanding way. 1 Peter 3:7, so that our prayers are not hindered, which entails a ton of things around the home and picking up the kids and leaving work early and figuring out what would bless your wife on vacation and where would she go. That doesn't mean anything she wants you do. It does mean that you're constantly trying to be this thoughtful, sensitive, loving, tender husband who is like Christ by the grace of God. And when you fail, you call upon that grace of God alone as I fail, I have failed so many times, and every Christian husband fails. Um, but you you go back to the plow and you say, Okay, let's start over. Um, that was a conflict. That was rough. I didn't love her the way I should have loved her. I didn't speak to her tenderly as Christ speaks to his bride tenderly in the normative sense. Okay, got to go back to basics, repent of sin, confess it to God, confess it to her, confess it to the kids if I need to. Now, again, back to business. What do I do to to love my wife, to love my children, to not exasperate them? Um, but uh to end this little disquisition too long, um you can tell you you got me going, man. Um in a comprehensive sense, we're trying to be like Christ. That's who Christian men are trying to be like. We're trying to be not tough alone or not tender alone. We are trying to be tough and tender men powered by and shaped by the gospel. We are not one thing. We are not those who seek to exhibit one quality. We are many-sided, multidimensional men shaped by and powered by Christ. And that is a very challenging calling. It means that some of the time you're holding a baby in your arm, as soft as can be, trying to get them to sleep. It means that some of the time you're out in the driveway as your neighborhood is yelling at someone and you don't send your wife out. It means that some of the time you're tenderly talking to your child who has just disobeyed you, and you're not red-faced and shouting. It means that some of the time you you look your child in the eye and you say, You do not talk to your mother that way. There's that in eight hundred other skills, abilities, and undertakings that a godly man practices in a given day. It's not one thing, it's many things.
SPEAKER_00I feel like you should write a book on this. Brother, that's so good and so helpful, I think, on a number of fronts. And I want to say thank you and make a for the gospel promise. We will have you on again. We'll do some videos with you on this topic and more. Thank you so much. And any closing thoughts or or final words?
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me on. Um, two closing thoughts. Number one, your book, Knowing the Spirit. Do I have that title right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Excellent book. Um most encouraging book I've read in months. Um dripping with conviction, but also tenderness. Um, the balance we're talking about really is a grace and truth balance uh in seeking to emulate Christ, not in our own strength. Sanctification, Costi, as your book makes very clear, is not the part where we take the reins from God, we take the wheel from God. God gets us in the car, God gets us saved, and then sanctification is really dependent on us. No. No. The whole enterprise from start to finish is grounded in the love of God and powered by the grace of God. And so um sanctification is all of God's grace. It absolutely calls out our will and our effort and our zeal, um, but it but it is it is all of God. Without God continually working in us, there is no sanctification. So your book brings that out really nicely, and I commend that um to people in the widest uh sense. Secondly, I would just say um one theme of uh manhood that I've been convicted about more in recent days, that we've touched on briefly, is um not just the call to men to be courageous, which is real and vital and biblical. 1 Corinthians 16 13, act like men, andresesta in the Greek. Paul coins a word, um, be strong and courageous, uh, Moses to Joshua, repeated, refrained, David to Solomon, be strong and show yourself a man, 1 Kings 2 2. That is pulsing in our Bible, but so too is grace powered humility. And here's the thing, Costi. I've really realized it is it is right as best we can uh to sound that horn, to ring that bell. Men like you and me, I think, are called. To do that in the kindness of God. But wow, we are not the solution. We are not the one who has it all figured out. We fail and we stumble in many ways, me included. We do exasperate our kids. We don't love our wife like Christ loves the church. We're not faithful in our daily vocation as we should be. I'm not plunging us into misery. I'm not uh drifting into antinomianism. I pray not. I am, though, recognizing that even as I wrote a book about manhood, as so often happens, you might think of it a little bit in your mind like, you know, I've got some, I've got some years on this subject. Like, hopefully I've got some stuff to bring to bear on this. And then what God ends up doing with you is actually exposing all you're not doing and how you haven't balanced this and that rightly, and how you've got to grow. And so I want to close on this. I want to close on a word of hope. And I've realized that in ringing the bell I was talking about, um, we've got to do that. But also we've got to pick men up, and we've got to pick women up, and we've got to meet them where they are, and we've got to realize this feminist, woke, postmodernist culture has destroyed functional manhood and womanhood in a lot of cases for a lot of people, including especially the rising and younger generations. And that means that yes, um, speak, as Calvin said, with the strong command voice, the voice that that calls off the wolves. But speak with the second voice, with the voice that ministers tender comfort to the sheep, because there are a lot of men and women alike. Um, man, they are divorced. Their marriage isn't in a great place. They don't have the faintest clue how to be a godly father or mother. Um, they are floundering in terms of leading their family or whatever it may be. They aren't encouraged. They do fear God's wrath, even as a believer, and we have to dial up grace. And so I've seen God do that in my own life. I've seen God humble me, expose sin as a young-ish man, and um that has caused me, Costi, to have more compassion and uh love for those who are struggling. Uh, because you know what? I'm no different than them. I I am a sinner saved by grace. Uh, I am a child of God, I'm a new creation, and praise God, God is being very patient with me, and that should very much shape how I engage others.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and amen. I could not agree more, brother. There is about 10 or 12 things you said that are things that I've gone through in the last year, two years, five years, ten years is one thing that never stops and never stops searing and and sobering, but also uh never gets old. And it's the Lord's work in our hearts, and he exposes and it's a little painful, and his discipline, though, is an act of love, his sharpening and correcting and shaping. It's a good kind of wounding, and he uses us for his glory, reminding us it's all about him. Man, thank you so much for today, and we'll do it again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and to any man out there who's in that situation, to any woman who's out there in that situation, know that you haven't gone off track if God is wrestling with you like he wrestled with Jacob. Um, that's actually very likely God drawing near to you and God um uh you know working with you as a father works with his child in love and tenderness, but also um in firmness uh to grow you. So take heart. Christians need to hear this all over the place, Costi. Take heart. Our God is great. We're not gonna lose this thing, we're gonna win this thing ultimately.
SPEAKER_00Amen. I love that. Well, Owen, thank you so much. And uh while we send Owen off on his way briefly back to what is called the waiting room on the interview setting, I just want to say thank you for listening, thank you for watching, thank you for sharing and for supporting. We can put out resources like this and do these things because of our incredible gospel patrons, partners like you, and people sharing and praying for this ministry. We would commend you to subscribe to our podcast on YouTube. We have a video version now. We also have all of these episodes available on uh Apple and all of the other platforms like Spotify and the like. For free resources, go to for thegospel.org. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.