Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast, where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on today's episode, I have a very special interview for you with a dear friend and brother named Tim Stevens. Tim is the pastor of Fairview Baptist Church north of the border in Canada, and I've gotten to know him pretty well from our time together as classmates at the Master's Seminary in the Doctor of Ministry program in expository preaching. Tim is faithful and has quite an aversion to a lot of attention and fanfare and public recognition. So he was in a little bit of a tough spot when he found himself on national news and really global news in 2021 when he refused to keep his church shut down and he refused to stop preaching. It was 2021, and the Canadian government had said, no more church, no more gatherings. And he, along with others like James Coates, who maybe you know and have heard of, kept on preaching and opened their churches to allow people to come. What I love about Tim and what you're gonna hear in this interview is he's a prudent man and they're a prudent church. They took some time for a season to assess things. They weren't just cavalier and didn't care about what anyone would think, to the point that they were insensitive. But Tim had come to a conviction. And when it was time, he said, I'm gonna preach, we're gonna worship, and anyone who wants to come can come. He's the father of eight kids, and with a family in tears, and the weight of the world seemingly on his shoulders, and really all the eyes of the world watching, he refused to stop preaching and refused to sign the paper that said he would close the church and keep it closed. This is his story in depth and in detail with so many lessons and such great wisdom for all of us to be sharpened and encouraged by. Let's jump right in to my interview with Tim Stevens. Tim Stevens, glad to be sitting down with you, brother. That's good. Thanks, Gossi. Fellow Canadian, fellow student in the Doctor of Ministry program here at the Master Seminary. And I wanted to have you on to the For the Gospel program to talk a little bit about your last few years, which have been pretty uncommon for a North American pastor. We want to tell us a little bit, though, first about you, where you pastor, your family, how many kids you have, which I think is pretty awesome, how many you have, and then we'll jump into more about your story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I pastor at church in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, Fairview Baptist Church, married to Raquel, and we have eight little ones. Our oldest is 14, our youngest is is two. Yes. So our house is very busy. So good.
SPEAKER_00Your house. Yes. Canadian. Love it. So take us back. I want to jump right into it. You first kind of broke into the news or whatever. A lot of people found out about what was happening up there because you ended up in prison. And I want to get to that. But first, would you kind of take us through a bit of a history reaching back, maybe even to 2019, into 2020? You're a faithful pastor at a Baptist church, loving your wife, raising eight kids, you're in Canada, and all of a sudden life changes for you. Could you take us back to that, maybe 2019, leading into 2020 and beyond?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that time, you know, pastoring a small church. This was a church that was started in 1960, and we were seeking to revitalize it, just preach as best as I can. And think things were things were going well. Every year, you know, a few more people would come and people were being encouraged and built up. And then when 2020 came around and when COVID came on to the news, it was a bit of a bit of a shock for us and for every everybody. Like our first encounter was that was really going to Costco and seeing all the shelves empty, not knowing what was happening. That's what happened up there too. That's what happened down here. Yeah, that's what the clerk said, well, COVID or coronavirus, we had no idea what that was. And so when our when our government initially said, oh, we need to stop all gatherings, we just assume, okay, here comes this killer virus and we better comply. And, you know, we were a very simple church. We didn't have any online streaming or anything like that. And so we had to put in some of those things for a time. And then as the as the weeks went on, you how awkward it would be to, you know, try to preach to your church looking at a lens of a camera. And and what was really painful was, you know, you you don't get any feedback from the people you're communicating with. Yeah. But even at the beginning, you know, I was very clear with our church that this was this was not church. Um, you know, online, you know, the address that I was doing was was not a sermon. This was not church, this was not the gathering, this was something temporary. And uh, you know, if you're familiar with a guy like Samuel Rutherford who was exiled and not able to be with his church, well, he would use his pen to write letters to them. And so I used that as an example of how we were going to operate as a church until we could begin to gather. But then, you know, there was one one Sunday after, you know, saying goodbye into a camera lens that I just like put my head on my desk and just just began to weep because I couldn't, I couldn't pastor my people. And of course, you look out the window and it's like there's nothing happening. Like there's there's not bodies piling up on the streets. It's just and so I began to talk with a few people in our church, and then others were of the same mind. Um but of course our church was divided. Some thought, no, we need to comply, this is this is bad, this is terrible. And so I began to to write and to try to encourage our church that we need to be open, even if the government says, says no. Um so we, it was probably the end of end of May. We've been closed maybe eight or nine weeks. Um so we we began meeting again, uh, but in a limited capacity, not everyone was comfortable in going.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so we we met through the the summer of 2020 and no fanfare, you know, no flag waving saying, here we are, we're we're defined.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Uh so we just we just met quietly and people would hear kind of word of mouth, oh, there's a church open. But then that fall of 2020, that's when restrictions continued to increase because as numbers went up, hospitalizations went up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so that the allowable limits for who ought to gather kept going down and down. And, you know, in our context, you know, no one could come into your home. It was just it was off limits. If you didn't live live and live in your home, like nobody's in there, which which immediately kills any kind of fellowship or hospitality. Even a small group of people together. They didn't live in your house, they couldn't come. Um and then the church limit kept going down and down until it was it was like 10 or 15 people. So and and their justification was only the people that are necessary to do some kind of online service should be at the building. Otherwise, no gathering. Yeah. And you know, we we were trying to be as reasonable as best we can without impeding our call to worship. But we kept gathering. And so in January, so right right after Christmas time, that's when law enforcement began attending our services. That's 2021. 2021 now. Yeah. So I apparently they reached out to us over Christmas, but we didn't answer the phone. Yeah. And uh so they started attending our church in January 2021. And it started with just a few bylaw officers. You know, I I got a mask ticket for not wearing a mask. So you knew who they were, they were dressed in uniform? Oh, yeah, they came with the uniform to the church, and this kind of gave everybody a warning, you know, you guys are are violating these these orders.
SPEAKER_00Could you take us into that just so we can visualize it? Are you you're up preaching? I picture are people singing, or is are they there before? And before you even start, do they get up in the in front of the stage and talk to like take us into the moment?
SPEAKER_01Well, they they came actually. We have like our Sunday school, Sunday seminars, and then we have our main worship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So they came between those those two services. Yeah. Which was so I was able to speak with them. I wasn't. Yes, they came right to the entryway, and uh, you know, it was immediate that we weren't complying. Sure. And so one of the bio officers, uh, he he he walked into the into the auditorium and he actually like called out with a loud voice, like, just so you know, you guys aren't wearing a mask, you're gonna get a ticket. And so he he was trying to intimidate some of our people, and so our people kind of looked over at this guy, then went back to their conversations. Oh, you're kidding me. They weren't really faced by it. And I think he was a bit upset because we had other people coming in for our main worship. Yeah, like, oh, bylaw's here. And I wave as they walked in. Um, but I I tried to prepare our church for that moment. Yeah. And so I I told them that you know, any any kind of consequence or liability, I'll I'll take that.
SPEAKER_00So you had written that you mentioned writing and you had prayed and thought through it. All that's happened before. So people are seeing the reality of what you prepared them for.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So that's they knew this was going to come because there's other churches you, you know, James Coase and Edmonton, like enforcement's already coming to his church. So we kind of knew what would come eventually, you know, as we kept gathering, because if you're not allowed to gather in our church parking lot is full every Sunday, you know, someone someone's gonna pick up the phone and uh make that call. So we kind of prepared the people that way, you know, when the Bible officer said like who else is in leadership, who else is is responsible here, I would just give my name and say, no, it's just me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so I didn't want anybody else to take take that responsibility. And I made it clear to them too that, you know, you you can you can give us a ticket, but we plan to um, you know, assert our own constitutional rights and freedoms. We we we don't believe we're doing anything wrong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, so we're not we're not going to hide in cower as if we're criminals. Yeah. But what we have a right to gather and to worship. And so you you can come here and tell us to stop, but but respectfully, we are going to continue. And that's the first round. That was the first round.
SPEAKER_00Round one. So they leave. Yep. They give you the ticket on site?
SPEAKER_01They leave, they write a ticket for me. You know, it's a thousand dollar ticket for failing to wear a mask, just written to me. Um they they they threatened others, but they only wrote one ticket that Sunday. And then they leave and they um they head off. Now, the the complication arose later that week because when when they came in, they they brought also a health inspector, you know, from the government. Okay. Which which deemed our church out of compliance with the with the health organization. On top of the ticket, other variables now they can hit you with. And so this this inspector then writes this report saying that we're we're a non-compliant, you know, organization. And when they do that, that gets that gets posted to their website and then notifies media.
unknownGo on.
SPEAKER_01And so later that week, then we have local media, in fact, some even some of the national media, picking up that here's this church in Calgary that is defying COVID mandates.
SPEAKER_00And any spike in numbers or any type of media narrative, they you become public enemy number one. You, James Coates, anyone else, it's like you guys are the reason people are dying, yes, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that's part of their tactic to gain compliance, right? That's why they're gonna tell the media to bring negative public pressure so that we comply. You know, so we had a number of people in our church when that happened saying, Oh, this is this is a terrible testimony that was too much to Jesus. Like, look what people are saying online, look at what the comments are saying, like this this is this is terrible for the gospel. Like we we need to we need to shut down, we need to comply.
SPEAKER_00And at that point, are you what goes through your mind in that moment were you ever tempted, or maybe temptation is the wrong word? Did you ever lean and think, because you have to consider as a as a pastor who's bold and courageous, we know our convictions, but you still have to be teachable and humble and thoughtful. We're not infallible, and shepherd flock. Yes. So in those moments, how are you meeting those people or that and then what informs your decision to go? No, we're not doing that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was, like I said, I was writing to our church. So our Sunday services looked the same as they always had. Like it was for the worship of God. This wasn't political, this wasn't about COVID, this was this was about worship. I was preaching the book of Job, and that discontinued. Um, but I would I would write a weekly email to our church in the middle of the week and and try to address some of the things that were happening and what our church was doing. You know, we had the odd meeting, but you know, our leadership wasn't really on the same page, which made it all the more difficult. Congregation was on the same page. And so when something came up like, oh, we're a terrible witness, well, then I would I would have to write a short article or essay about what does it mean to be a witness of Jesus? It doesn't mean that the world likes you.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01It means that you're you're obeying Christ and because of your obedience. Now this attention has been drawn to the church, but but what people are going to see is that we're doing this because of our allegiance to Christ. You know, so so that is the witness. So so the martyrs were witnesses, even though everyone hated them. But it it's remaining steadfast under that trial. That is our witness.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And so we had to teach that to our people. And you know, the next week when when bylaw came back, and this time they brought brought police, so these were not just bylaw officers. But they come back again. Yeah, that they're come back the next week. We're gonna gather again.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so we're preparing our people like, hey, if you get a ticket, you know, here are some lawyers that have have volunteered their services for our church, you know.
SPEAKER_00Did those come because the media hits you and there's a bunch of dust up, and then lawyers come out of the woodworks and say, hey, we're with you if you need anything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you got a few law law groups in Canada that want to advocate for people's freedoms. And so uh, even one of the lawyers was attending our church at the time, he's like, you know, here's what you do when you get a ticket. Don't flip out, it's like a speeding ticket. We can fight this. And uh so so people were prepared, but the next Sunday they came back with bylaw and then with a bunch of police officers. And we decided not to let them in this Sunday because you know, there's actually a law in the books in Canada saying that you're you can't disrupt the religious service.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so we we told them that law and said, unfortunately, we can't let you in right now. Like it you're actually intimidating and scaring our people. We've we've come here for sacred worship of the true and living God, and so you can come and look at our church, but but come after. And so so they were outside as a little bit of a standoff. They were a little bit upset that we were saying that. But as they were outside, you know, a number of police cars and and God bless our people, because they would still come park and walk through police cars and walk through police to get into the church to come and worship. So at the beginning of the service, a little bit distracting to know what was happening out there, but then when you start preaching, everybody is listening.
SPEAKER_00And how many people at this time are are gathering? You mentioned a little bit about some of the leaders all not on the same page, which I mean that happened a lot of different places. Yeah. Uh, and then you've got people that said, Hey, you know, Pastor Tim, that's a little too much for us. Yes. Our witnesses now on the line. How many are gathering at this point? We're in week two of a multi-week hit with tickets and police presence.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So before this, we probably had about 120, 130 gathering on a Sunday. You know, as as the police started to come, that that number dwindled. Um, so probably on those Sundays when they're starting to enforce, especially the Sunday where they came back with a greater police presence, you know, maybe there was 60, 70 people that gathered at that time. But as the as the police were persistent, that number continued to go down because I think people were concerned about you know the their own consequences. And and not just not just getting a ticket, but you know, as as cameras were there from media organizations, like what would happen if my boss sees me here? I might lose my job. Yeah, and I can't feed my family. And so we had people saying, you know, this is this this is just too much. Um because their intimidation did did work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And there was a time because that that second Sunday when they were back, like they actually came to my house and gave me three tickets. And these weren't just regular tickets like a thousand dollar fine. This was uh like a court summons. Like you have you have to go to the judge, and and the judge is going to assign you some kind of monetary penalty.
SPEAKER_00So that was the third hit. So the first time they come, they give you the thousand dollars. Yeah. The second time they're showing up and starting to hit you with other things. Then they come to your house?
SPEAKER_01Yes, because of that second Sunday. Got it. So they come to my house that week and uh it's at at my house that they give me three, you know, because there's there's physical distancing that we weren't doing, there's capacity violations, having too many people around there. Um I forget what the third one was. Maybe it was masking, you know. So they give me three of these court summons, which the the penalty for that is up to a hundred thousand for the first offense and up to five hundred thousand for the second offense. And so when we got those three, like sat down with my wife, and you know, getting a thousand dollar ticket was already at that time was a little bit emotional, you know. And you think we we we can we can do that. And then when you get these three court summons, it's like now I gotta go to court, and this might be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Um so you know, we might we might lose our home. You know, we had to sell our home to pay for this. And and it was at that time when this and my wife and and and I thank God for her, but we were we were both convicted to to just trace over the biblical arguments uh that I had already been outlaying for our congregation and real recognizing that those things are still true. The scriptures don't change because the consequences are now ratcheting up. And so if it was right to gather last week when the police weren't here, it's right to gather this week when they're here. And so he said, well, we we need to continue to to go forward and continue to meet. And uh there was the most difficult thing at that time was was really the the fracturing within the congregation. And you know, there's a number of people that were just discouraged and thought, you know, I I'm convinced that we ought to gather, but but look at all these brothers and sisters who aren't, and so we ought to maybe not gather for their sake, and you know, you you have passages in scripture that talk about caring for the weaker brother and loving one another. Yeah. And so you're you're trying to weigh this all out. And so talking to you know our now associate pastor, and there was one time I'm like, well, if if we continue to gather, we may only have like ten people who come. I we might not even have a church, yeah, I might not have a pastorate. And uh and he he said, you know, Tim, if we have ten, we have ten.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_01If we have ten, we have ten. That's that's our that's our flock, right? We have to keep we have to keep gathering.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00What part of your theology and church history came into play, and how did that inform your decision above and beyond you and your wife's very important conversation, obviously, financial, your home, life, livelihood, your shepherding responsibility with members of the flock who are wrestling through their own conscience in the end, you chose to stay the course. What aspect theologically, maybe church history, informed that overall? You talk about going through the arguments or re-reworking through those with your wife. What were some of those hinge points?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, there's a there's a history, of course, in the church, yeah, where people are resisting authorities for the sake of obedience to God. I think that's a principle that we all agree with. The challenge is when do you do that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and what what I sought to teach our church is when you look at biblical history, you have Israel in Egypt, and and Pharaoh is wanting to constrain kind of the parameters of their obedience to God. So yes, you can go to the wilderness, but only the men, or leave your livestock here, or and he was always trying to compromise where they're like, no, we have to obey God in this way completely. And so that's an example of I think what our even our government was doing was we have you can still gather, but you just have to gather this way. You you can't do the Lord's Supper, you can't do baptism right now. No, you can't you can't gather as to church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's so that's a helpful detail, and I'm thanks for letting me keep jumping in because I'm fascinated by this. I know some of it, but I'm still as eager as anyone else to hear. The Lord's table. So they were in Canada, it's different countries, we're in the US, obviously, different places. They were restricting the Lord's table because it's obviously food or drink. So now you have a direct command in the midst of hey, you can gather, you can't obey the Lord's command to do this in remembrance of me. Is that why? Aspect too, where you can't do that.
SPEAKER_01They had that aspect. They had the aspect of uh there was times when when you weren't allowed singing. Oh, that's right. So no singing in the church. You know? So we sort of laughed at that. We suggest that you hum or or or listen and reflect. Yeah. Then what do you do with the command of scripture that say sing to one another? Yeah. Right? So there were there was all these adjustments. And again, the people who were who were proposing these alternate forms of worship were not the elders of churches. No. These are bureaucrats and politicians and other doctors that had that had no understanding of what God has actually required us to do. And so learning what Israel did in Egypt is helpful. And then, of course, seeing what Israel did when they were in exile in Babylon, how they they did whatever they could to work within Babylonian society. Respectfully. But there becomes a line when Daniel has to pray in such a way, even though he knows the consequences will be severe. They would not bow when the music played. And so there are there are certain lines, and it's and it's not just, you know, when when the government does something egregious like saying, don't preach the gospel. But Daniel, it was prayer. You know, so it was, and and if you try to find a scripture where do you have to face towards Jerusalem and pray three times a day, he's like you don't find that passage. But this was a principle, a practice that he was already engaged in, and this demonstrated his loyalty to God above all his loyalties.
SPEAKER_00No. Not at all. That's really helpful. I was going to ask you how uh in the midst of all that, you look back still and with zero conviction and issue on your conscience, you guys did try to assess things first. I know a lot of churches who did to make sure it wasn't the bubonic plague. I think a lot of pastors we thought, all right, we're gonna go die in the streets and we're gonna be holding people in our arms, and we have to prepare our wives to kind of just release us. We're gonna die to this crazy virus. You did everything you could to assess, to be patient, to be reasonable in a way like Daniel when he goes and even requests, hey, could could we even test the diet out? See how we eat versus others. You did a lot of that. So when it was time, it was time. Take us into uh the moment where now you're on a tipping point, and you just decide, okay, if we have ten, we have ten. Your associate, what's his name? Alex. Alex. So Alex says, if we have ten, we have ten. We're rolling. And so you're gonna walk in obedience. You've gone through a biblical theology, not just one little isolated example, but a pattern of God's people obeying him. Yeah. What happens next?
SPEAKER_01So as the enforcement action continues, then court orders are involved. And we had the advantage of we're three hours south to James Coates at Grace Life Church in Edmonton.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And he he's kind of ahead in the pipeline. Was he in prison yet? No, he wasn't in prison yet.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But he was getting court orders, you know, they were getting fines. So we could see that they were a little bit ahead of the game. Yeah. And of course, he's he's in the capital of our province, so all the politicians are there, you know.
SPEAKER_00So he's in the Edmonton area, right? He's in the Edmonton area, we're in the cabo area.
SPEAKER_01The two big cities, right?
SPEAKER_00So they barricaded, right? They did the thing or the fences around their church. That's that's coming.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so not even yet. Not even yet. But and so but in February, they they put him in jail. You know, so eventually these court orders were basically cease and distance. You must stop gathering. And uh because you know, you you can give someone a ticket every single week, but you're you know you can't bring them to jail. But going to get a court order and permission from the judge now gives them the permission to put you in jail, to kinda kinda raise the stakes. And so when that happened to James, our church continued to be divided, you know, um up until James' imprisonment. And and we were trying our best to move forward together as a body, together as leadership. But when when James went to jail, it it w it was like, okay, we we have to we have to cut out uh this idea of really trying to you know gently lead people along. This is an area where our brother is in prison and and we need we need to gather. And we need to do so in such a way that that everyone knows that that we are brothers in the Lord and that his convictions are our convictions. And so we gathered at that time, you know, very publicly. You know, we we we let the you know the media know, you guys can come see us. We're we're doing the very same, the same thing. And so that that moment really was a moment that you know, rally the troops, put steel in our spine. It just is helped knit our church together.
SPEAKER_00We will not bow moment.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and even people in our church at that point that didn't agree with me. When James went to jail, they said, Tim, you know, I we understand that your convictions are the same as James and that and that you need freedom to continue to gather without us uh kind of hindering this. And so, you know, basically got the blessings even from those who didn't agree, like you got you guys need to gather and you need to gather this way. Um so so we we did that. And of course, no one expected James to be in jail for as long as he did, you know, 35 days. Um because again, the conditions for his release were you can't you can't go and lead your church in worship, you can't you can't gather together, you know. So I think for him to not even step on the property. And so he he couldn't agree to that. And so he he remains in jail. And and at that time I enforcement on our church l let up a little bit because I think they just weren't sure what was happening, you know, the enforcement. They didn't expect any pastor to go to jail.
SPEAKER_00And so I think it was just a threat. James is in there like, okay, so we're doing this, are we doing this, are we not?
SPEAKER_01And then the media attention, you can imagine, oh yeah, you know, a pastor going to jail. And and James is not a guy that is some kind of radical, you know, he's not a crazy guy, he he's calm, gentle, you know, gospel preacher, and he's in jail. And so I I don't think that they wanted to continue doing that. Um but it but eventually I think the the authorities had just given too much permission to some of these health agencies and and they were still upset that our church continued to gather.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so there was a service, you know, as we continue to gather, there was there was more warnings on their part about us gathering. But there are Sundays when when they would just come with their police cars and be outside of our church and then Sunday would end and then they'd leave.
SPEAKER_00So sort of just a an intimidation tactic or a hey, we're here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's almost like they were just keeping track of of us and our continued, you know, defiance in their mind. And so, you know, every Sunday I would go to church and and write write my lawyer's phone number on my wrist just in case when I go to jail, I I want to remember that and give them give them a phone call. Totally. Um because I knew jail time might be coming for me too. I I took time to write letters to my children and to my wife, to the congregation. So so if I go to jail, you know, ask my wife to please deliver these letters uh to the church. And so in in May it it happened, we I think it was right at right after Mother's Day, and uh I was outside in the parking lot, and I actually got a phone call from the police saying we're going to arrest you. And I want I want your family to go away because uh we don't want to traumatize the children. And I said, Well, yeah, I'm not sure if that's that's a that's a good idea. And she says, Well, we'll talk to your wife and uh and then I'll call you back in a couple minutes. Wow. So it was a very strange phone call to get from the police, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Are they under pressure? Can you take us real quick? I know people are probably like, no, let them just get to it, but we have to ask this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00At that moment, are the police under pressure from other agencies or other entities? I mean, for them to call and give you the polite heads up, are their hands tied, or those are the guys that are executing it and they're just being nice?
SPEAKER_01I think I don't think the police wanted me in jail. You know, they they wanted me to comply, obviously.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01But I don't think they wanted they didn't want the attention because it makes the police force look bad. Totally. You know, for arresting a peaceful pastor for preaching to his congregation. Yeah. And uh so I don't think they wanted the attention. I think it was really our health authorities. They're under pressure from the health authorities. Health authorities were the ones kind of driving the driving things, and and the government had had given them too much authority. Yeah. And so when the police called me, uh, I talked to my wife and she says, I don't want to leave. You know, what am I gonna tell the kids? You know, we're gonna go home and say, Oh, by the way, dad's in jail now. Yeah. So she's like, I'm I'm not going anywhere. And so when he called me back, I said, no, my family's gonna stay here. And so they all came into the parking lot and and had an opportunity just to, you know, give my family a hug, pray for them, say goodbye to some of the other members of our church. And uh and they brought me off off to jail. And it was it was a surreal experience because you knew it might be coming, but then of course, going through it, you can never truly prepare for it, right? Uh it's it's not like in the movies or anything like that. So before before you actually go to a prison, you know, you go to the police station, they have like an arrest processing station. And so in there they, you know, you're not allowed multiple layers. So I'm I'm dressed, you know, similar to this. And you know, so like you can't bring in your suit jacket and oh I you have two two shirts on, you gotta take it after church then. After church on a Sunday afternoon.
SPEAKER_00What time? So time of day, like 1 p.m., somewhere in that.
SPEAKER_01It's like maybe maybe maybe two o'clock, three o'clock.
SPEAKER_00Church parking lot, you're done. Were the kids? I mean, not to like make you relive it a ton, but just that like were the were they all crying pretty heavily? They were crying. Your wife pretty stable at that point.
SPEAKER_01She's pretty stable, but just like where are you taking him? Yep, you know, what's gonna happen now? Can you do it? No, I think because at that point, we're we're still trying to say, you know, look, what we're doing is not it's not illegal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, um, even some of the court orders that have been issued, you know, it doesn't apply to us as a church. Like we're we're gathering together, we're not here to protest. This is this is this is we're not trying to take down the government. We're we're just gathering together for for church. You know. So but the police, you know, they didn't want to say say much. Yeah. So they take you in. They take me in, layers are off. Layers are off. I mean, I'm into uh basically a cement cell, you know. So you got four walls, ceiling, and floor that's completely cement and with it with a toilet sitting there.
SPEAKER_00Is there like a bed or a bench or anything in there?
SPEAKER_01There's a bench on on two of the sides.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But if you if you lay on that bench, it'll it'll suck all the heat off you.
SPEAKER_00So that's your holding cell where you're being processed?
SPEAKER_01You're you're you're you're in there, and actually I I was in there for about you know a day. I was in there overnight before they brought me over to to the jail. And so you lay there, the lights are on the entire time, and so you know, they give you a COVID mask. So that was my my blind. You used it for uh for a blackout mask, sleep to sleep. Yeah, put it over my eyes, and then I had a water bottle from them, so that was my pillow. Yeah, put that behind. But it you get cold because yeah, it was summer, it was you know springtime, but the air conditioning was on. It just because the officers hold this you know uniform on, so uh, and then you're there with basically nothing on a cement pad. And so when I went home, my kids asked, What's jail like? I'm like, well, go down to the basement floor, the cement floor, and just lie on that. It's like one of And Dr. Lawson's classrooms that we have to endure 55 degree air conditioning. Yeah, it's like that, but laying on the cement. And then of course, you know, if you're if you're used to any kind of privacy, you know, you go to the bathroom, you close the door, like it's just you. But when when you're in prison, like you have a toilet that's just there, and so when you have to go to the bathroom, like there's there's cameras above you, there's there's windows that are looking in, and so you you you feel very animal-like. You know, it's it's it's your dignity um is this is stripped from you there. And I understand, like, they deal with criminals. Sure. Um, but coming straight from church, you know, to go there was a bit of a bit of experience. So I was there, you know, through through most of the night and then was transferred over, you know, in Canada they called it a remand center. And so this is this is a maximum security place where they where they bring people that uh you know can't get bail or before they're transferred to a longer-term penitentiary.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01You know, so so they they put you in there. Of course, they don't tell you what's happening next. And so one of the the things that really adds to the the negative experience of going to prison is is there's no manual. That they they don't tell you what's happening. Which messes with the human mind. And so they'll just they'll just like bang on your cell door and like, Stevens, we're going. And it's like you just stand up, you know, they'll put handcuffs on you, they'll put shackles on your on your ankles, and so you you're tied up with shackles, and then you you can't walk very fast. You're shuffling to the next thing. Yeah, so you're shuffling, and you know, these things are digging into your skin, and and they put you in the back of a of a van, and it's like a like a dog kennel. So you get you get like wedged into this you know steel box, and so you're there with your shackles and handcuffs, and then off they go, and you have no idea where we're going. And uh so you so you get into this other facility, and and then you're brought into another holding cell, and so you're sitting in this cell, you've you have no idea what's happening next, you know, and then other guys, other inmates get brought in, and they get put in that same cell. And so they brought this one guy in, and he was he was looking really rough, and and he kind of crawls up and and he's he's yelling back at the guards, and you know, you could tell he's he's antsy, he's disturbed. And so you're not sure like what's that guy gonna do to me. Totally. As I'm sitting there with my you know, my suit on in prison. And uh so that staging area, they they process you into there. And and knowing the general procedures now, uh it's not so much of a shock by the time, you just know what's happening next. So they would give you a strip search as you get in there. But but you didn't you didn't know that. And so they'll tell you, hey Stevens, come over here, and then you know, you stand over there, and okay, take take off your shirt, take off this, and it's and then soon like you're completely naked, they turn around and do this, and it's and uh so you you just feel so violated. Yeah. And uh and and you understand after the fact that yes, this is this is their procedure because of the guys that they're bringing through here. Sure. Um so eventually you you go through that, you get your your nice coveralls, you know, your prison issue coveralls. Are they warmer than they're a bit thicker? Sure. You know, but that but it's all the layers you got, right? You got this coverall, and you're lucky if the velcro works and keeps it, keeps it together, it doesn't fall apart. Uh, you know, they get you a pair of socks and a pair of crocs, and and that's that's your uniform. They give you a bag that had uh you know a blanket in it and uh you know extra socks and underwear, and then um escorted me off to my to the unit and the cell that I was gonna stay in. And so was there with another cellmate. Most most of the time you are with a cellmate, you know, you're in quite a small space, and there's there's bunk beds there. And you know, at least at least when you get the Reman Center, there is some padding on the bunk beds, but you know, I I could best liken that to it's like those gym mats that you have, but but one that has been so worn down over time. Or being slept on. So it's almost like you know, if you take like a beach towel and fold it over a couple times, like that that was the amount of padding you get, which is still good for the back, but you know straighten you out a bit. Yeah, but no pillow, you know. So you just you lay there, lay there with your blanket. And and that first night was hard because I was actually in that cell with that same guy who was processed at the same time as me. Got it. And he's he's clearly in withdrawal, clear, clearly he needs his next hit of drugs. And so you you just don't know what state of mind he is in and what he will do. And of course, all these thoughts come to your mind about the movies you've seen of the stuff that happens in jail. And uh and so it's hard to to get a good night's rest. But it was through that time I had to I did have an opportunity to call my wife once I once I got to Reman Center. You know, you you do your best to try to every guard you meet, hey, can I can I use a phone? Can I use a phone? And and most of the time they'll just brush you off and say no. But I was able to use the phone that night and and I remember you know talking to my wife and and doing my best not to be super emotional, you know, even though you feel like weeping. And uh but you want to be strong for her, let her know where where you are, ask how the kids are doing. And I remember that first first night I was there, uh especially in that holding cell with other that other man, thinking, you know, about the injustice of this all. And then when I talked to my wife though, it just the idea that Christ suffered so so unjustly for our sake. And then he didn't just go to go to prison, but he he suffered the wrath of God, he suffered the wrath of men as a completely innocent man for our sake. And so sitting there and and knowing that you're sitting there unjustly and and experiencing you know some of this, the emotional pain of imprisonment, it just gave me uh such an appreciation for our Lord.
SPEAKER_00So that brought you closer to Christ in some ways, like in your in your relationship with the Lord in your prayer life, you're you think about Paul and sharing in the sufferings of Christ. For you in that moment, you're you feel like you're drawn closer to the Lord in your relationship with him, or at least you're relating to some aspects of what we've learned.
SPEAKER_01In some respects, you're you're able to understand in a tiny minuscule fraction of what he endured for our sake.
SPEAKER_00So your theology is now becoming quite practical reality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then just to feel that just that emotion of that, and then to be strengthened by that. To know that if if my Lord has suffered to that extent much more for me, well, certainly I can I can be here. Yeah. And and I I can suffer unjustly. And I I know that just like he entrusted himself to him who judges justly, uh, so so can I trust myself to the Father and uh and know that I will be vindicated, whether in this life or the one to come.
SPEAKER_00So you're at their mercy, what do they decide what what happens next?
SPEAKER_01Well, I went to court for a couple days, and I was kicked back to the prison, you know, one time, and then the other time, it it turns out there was a a technicality in how they in fact put me in jail, which means I was gonna be able to come home. Um so I was there for about three days, and coming coming out of prison after those three days, and knowing that I was I was really released because of a technicality, it meant that I'm probably gonna be heading back there very shortly. Yeah. And so my wife came and picked me up, you know, the kids all grab onto me. And uh I I began to cry, just like holding them back, and just thinking, because I'm gonna be heading back there and and knowing now that a little taste of what it's like, you know, this is not fun. No, you know. So now I'm gonna be heading back. I just I just thought, you know, I'm I might miss the next birthday, uh, I might miss our baby's first step. She was just born a few months ago before that. And so this is this is what's going through my mind, and my kids have never seen, never seen me cry, you know. So they're they're seeing daddy, who's who's normally strong, and now here's dad crying. And so my kids actually tell my wife, like, I think daddy's broken. Oh, you know, man. And my wife gets home and she's texting the other women, it's like, I I think Tim's broken, you know, because it was very emotional. We went home and they're like, Daddy, can we get some ice cream? Because they want to cheer me up, right? Totally. And I'm like, no, thanks. And so like, that dad must be that must be really wrong. Because dad's favorite is ice cream, and dad doesn't want any ice cream. But they they bring me home and I sit on the couch, and you know, all this stuff's going through my mind, and and so my kids decide they're gonna gather around me and sing Psalm 23 for me.
SPEAKER_02What?
SPEAKER_01And so they start singing Psalm 23, and uh yeah, I I I tried to start with them, but I I couldn't I couldn't get out the words, yeah. And so they're singing that to me. It's just it was it. Was such a heavy emotional time uh going through all that. Whoa.
SPEAKER_00So that was that was quite the experience, you know, the first time going through and you're now we're talking, we're into like Thursday, we're into Friday, we're getting to the as Sunday's approaching, you know it's looming, it's it's coming, you're resolved, you're gonna meet, you're gonna worship, it's what it is. When you take us to this Sunday morning, you're you're there, you're in your suit, you're ready to rock, yeah. What what are what happens?
SPEAKER_01Well, we gathered so that Sunday, we actually gathered outside. Okay, you know, because we our our desire was to gather as a church, right? Not to make some kind of spectacle. Totally. But as as I went to jail and as things were happening, you know, so every Sunday the police would all be there, the media would all be there, and so it was a bit of a circus. And so just to try to come and worship with all this going on, yeah, it was too much of a distraction. So we said, okay, let's let's meet somewhere where we don't normally meet, and we'll gather together. That way we can just gather in private and worship. And so we did that on that Sunday, and uh I remember when that service started, you know, so I I sh showed up and and the other people were were excited to see see me out. And uh there was one gentleman that was, you know, he's like, Oh, it's so good that you're able to go to jail and be persecuted for Jesus' sake, and he was just so excited, and he's like, How how was that? And and I was just like, Well, it's just it's just not as glorious as you think it is.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of like the rah-rah, like Luther. We read the read like church history and like, yeah, you know, bring it on here. I stand, I can do no other. Like, come get afraid for his life. Totally ignorant. You're like, yeah, man, it's it's actually really brutal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so the young guys had this expectation, like, oh yeah, like you were in jail. This like, mmm. Like, let's go. Let's mail it. Yeah. I'm like, no, jail is not fun. This this is not it's it's not glorious to suffer. It is glorious to gather for the sake of Jesus and have him minister to you and strengthen you, but but going to jail is not something that you would want to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so we we ended up meeting there outside, and you know it was someone else within our church that was kind of hosting us there, but you know, I just didn't want anybody else to get in trouble for our our gathering. And so we thought, well, let's let's go back to our to our facility, our church, and we'll continue to gather. And as we did that, they also they locked our church, very similar to how they locked up James Coates church. Uh they didn't end up putting the big barricades around it, but they they changed our locks, which prevented us from meeting there.
SPEAKER_00And you own the building. We own the building. Yeah, like that's your church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And they did it to our church in Ontario too. So they they had assumed for themselves almost this you know, tyrannical powers where they're collateral, like we do what we want. Yeah, confiscate your property. Wow. Because you're you're health violators, you know. So yeah, it was it was incredible that they could do that. So we ended up meeting outside, but where we met outside, yeah, people got word or somebody saw us gathering, and so made a call to the authorities. And uh, so this was now getting into the month of June. So this is getting summertime, even in Canada. And but the outdoor gathering limit was only 10 people. And so at that time, more people had gathered to our church because of you know, my imprisonment and and the news media, so so other churches were still closed, so people were coming together. So people were coming to church. Yeah, so we probably had maybe 200 or a little bit over 200 gathering outside. The limit was 10. And so the police um you know, they came. I remember them coming to my house on a Saturday night in June, probably right at the very beginning of June. And they actually found me outside. I was back in the play, playground with my kids. And so two police officers came up to me and they had in their hand the court order basically cease and desist, you must stop or else you'll be arrested. And so when they gave that to me, that was that was one of the reasons why I was released the first time. They didn't serve me properly, this notice. Got it. And so now they have given it to me properly, and and I have noticed, and this is Saturday night, and so the question is, well, do we go worship Sunday, knowing that they're waiting for us? You know, they they know they've given me this, I have full warning. And so I remember talking to my wife, you know, I called James Coates, I talked to other other people in our church, and just became convinced that no, we need to nothing's changed. And James is out of prison at this point? He's out of prison, and his church is meeting in different locations secretly, secretly, and and they haven't been found out yet by the authorities.
SPEAKER_00So they're staying under the radar, yep, trying because they're we're doing something similar, but now we've been found out.
SPEAKER_01Yep, they've served me that court order, and so we decide, well, now we're gonna continue to meet. We we could have tried to change location, but now it's Saturday night. But it's over. Everyone's everyone's ready, everyone's prepared to go. And so, no, we we're gonna gather as a church. And so I I gathered that we gathered that Sunday, and then uh on Monday, that's when the police, you know, came to our house to come to arrest me. And it it's actually the footage is online because the the prosecution, the lawyer for the prosecution, thought I was already arrested. And so he he actually contacted my lawyer and said, Okay, how do we deal now with Stevens who's in jail? And so he called me and said and realized I wasn't arrested yet. And he goes, They're on their way to arrest you.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01And so he calls media to come record this. Yeah. And so they they show up at the same time, the police. So we have media police all showing up at the house at the same time. But it helped me to prepare at that time, knowing they were coming. So we we gathered together as a family in our living room. You know, I prayed for my family, we sang a psalm together, and uh then when the police came, you know, you can see the footage online, some of that discussion and interaction. But the kids were were heartbroken because they didn't know how long I would be gone this time. And so they're they're crying, you know, they're reaching into the police cruiser as I'm sticking my hand out through the bars and being pulled away. And and this time I knew the drill. I knew here we're gonna go to this cement cell and the arrest processing center, then we're gonna go to remand center. Uh so I knew what was before me, but I just didn't know how long. Um so my my second stay was about 18 days.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And it was I had I had I had better a better cellmate that time. And so he kind of he kind of taught me once, once you know the first four days were done and he sobered up, yeah, then he could could teach me, you know, how to how to survive well in prison in terms of things to eat and such.
SPEAKER_00Would you give us kind of a glimpse of the culture there? You're a preacher, yeah, a Christian. Do they mistreat you? Do they treat you well? Are you dealing with any type of threats? Or you know, what's that like for you and your role and how did the inmates respond to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So you do have you know you do have a radio in prison in your cell. You can listen to the radio, and the guys in there, you you know, general some of the events happening in the world. So because it's been months since the police have been at our church and we've been in the news, so so these guys knew about these preachers who were gathering. And so what when I get there, they're like, Oh, are you one of the pastors? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, yes. And because, you know, almost everybody in prison is uh is a Christian. Yeah. They've all been through these Christian rehab programs. Yeah. And uh and so they they would call me preacher or pastor, and they would, you know, if they had a chocolate bar, they'd they'd give that to me. So the inmates were actually very, very kind to me. They're on your side. So so once once, you know, once you get to know that, you realize, you know, these guys are actually very, very supportive. In their mind, if if you're against the government, like you're on their side. Yeah, you know, you're one of them. And and they they all feel they're in there unjustly, right? So they kind of band together, you know, we're we're we're a bit of a victim here. And so they they really, you know, in many respects, uh respected me. And then they would come to me and and share with me their problems. And so these guys look tough, right? So you go there and you're scared of these guys, what they look like. But uh, as they shared with me, you know, the broken relationships, you know, none of them had a father in their life, you know, the number of women or children that they've that they've had, and and they're just pouring out their lives and asking for help.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And so you you do your best to try to explain the gospel to them. And you know, where do you start? Like there's there's been nothing in their lives that have a semblance of of any kind of Christian order or creational normativity. Um and even readings, some of these guys can't even read. Wow. And so they would ask me, Hey, can you can you read something for me? And and in and in jail, you had some books there, but they would ask me to read some of these books, and they were they were terrible books. Um I'm like, I'll I'll read to you, and and uh I had a Bible because every every time you you go into jail, I always ask all the guards, I need a Bible, need a Bible. So finally you you get a Bible. And so I said, I'll just read to you the Bible. And so with my inmate, we were in there 23 and a half hours a day together, right? Because you only get a half hour break out of your cell. So you're in there lots of time to read. And so I'll just read you the gospel of Mark. So I just you know read a chapter and explain it a little bit. So are you still listening? He's like, Yeah, I'm I'm listening. Like, second chapter. So, you know, you read the entire gospel of Mark with commentary to my cellmate, you know, and he's like, Mark. He's like, You're a great reader, right? It's like re reading the truth. And that was actually one of the blessings, you know, with no cell phone, nothing, no beeping, you know. So you don't know what's going on outside the walls of the prison, but you have your Bible, and uh you're able to pray a lot more than you would normally do, just without distractions. And and you can you get up in the morning and you're like, well, I don't know what today's gonna bring, but I think I'll just read the book of Isaiah. Wow. Or read Jeremiah. And you you have hours to sit there and read, read the scriptures. So in that sense, it was it was edifying to me and strengthened my conviction, strengthened my resolve. And even going through the Psalms or other things, like there was this passage of scripture that were ministering to me that were so relevant. And uh, you know, there's there's a lot of Christian songs that we sing, but I found in in prison I found it was the psalms that ministered in such a way that you know a hymn or another Christian song just couldn't match. Wow. So I just found myself singing the Psalms and then reading through the Psalms because when you think about the Psalms, most of them are laments, most of them are, you know, David's on the run, he's being persecuted, you know, he's he's isolated, he's not with the congregation. And so you're reading this, you're like, this is right where I'm at.
SPEAKER_00And they're inspired, they're authoritative, they're divine, they're supernatural. So you what better comfort you could sing the greatest uh contemporary song ever on anxiety and suffering. It does not compare, it'll never be on par with the word of God. Yes, that's incredible, man. So you're in there, you are along the way getting a glimpse that you're coming to the end of the rope, or 18 days hits and they go, Stevens, let's go, you're out. What's the culmination?
SPEAKER_01Well, we're out about half hour a day, right? So in that in that half hour a day, it might be one half hour block or maybe two 15-minute breaks um where you get out of your cell. So during that time, you know, you you you can shower if you want to. I would always head to the phone.
SPEAKER_00How hard was that to only and then didn't your wife not know when you were gonna get out?
SPEAKER_01Like you don't know, right? So you just called, you might miss the call. No, you don't know. Yeah, there was where was one time she I think she was at prayer meeting. Um I'm calling and calling and calling. She's not answering. Um, so I missed her that day. But like, so so say, say I'm out like 8 30 one morning, I have you know, 15 minutes, half hour to call her, and then the next day, I might not be out, because you're out once a day, I might not be out until 8 30 at night. So it it might be like 36 hours before she gets a phone call from me. And of course, she's at home saying, Where's Tim? And uh so I would just try to use that time to call her, uh, to hear from the kids. And and of course, on the phone, you know, when I heard her voice or the kids' voice, you know, I'm trying my best to keep my composure. You know, all the all the guys around me, like, and many of them don't have anybody to anybody to call. So they're sitting there watching you make the phone calls. And so I'm trying to encourage them and strengthen them. I'm I'm trying to help her pass on messages to continue shepherding the flock. You know, so I would in my cell, I would I would write what I want to say in an email, and then I get on the phone and say, Okay, Raquel, like start recording this. Wow. Because I'm I'm gonna read what I'm I want to say to the church, and so she'll make sure that gets passed on. Um so even those 15 minutes, 20 minutes of of phone conversation were so so helpful in prison. Um but I could hear from her that you know restrictions were supposed to come to an end or ease up at the end of June, so beginning of July. Got it. And so that's when we expected, okay, maybe there's a chance that that I'll get out of jail, although that was still uncertain. And even the day of, even July 1st, it was uncertain whether I'd be released or not. Um and so it turned out that on that day um I was I was released because uh restrictions and requirements for gathering numbers at the church and such were were lifted. And so I was able to to head home.
SPEAKER_00Really quick, you need to explain to people how you could have gotten out this whole time. Yes. I don't think people probably have a good grasp of that. You could have gotten out day one.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00No problem.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Why? How? Yeah, you you could you could have, even when they arrested me, I didn't need to get in that police car because they had with them a piece of paper um saying that I I will agree to abide by the health orders. You won't gather. Which means I won't gather for my church, you know, I'll obey the distancy and all that kind of stuff, and I can I can sign that and agree, and they won't take me take me away. And then in jail, you know, and any of those days, I could have just said, Oh, guard, I'll sign I'm ready to sign. And I could walk out a free man.
SPEAKER_00That gets me. So every phone call, any miss call day, let's say you miss Raquel, she's in a prayer meeting, any hard kind of day mentally, anything you could have signed, and you just kept how were you willing, you would have stayed in there for as long as it took? Yeah, you had that result.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we were ready, it was hard, right? Um Espe especially when you had people like the the one of my lawyers at that time was like, Tim, like, do not help anybody. You should sign and get out. We'll fight this leak, we'll fight this legally, we'll fight this in the court. Yeah. You're you're helping nobody in jail. And and my response, my wife's response to him was like, I'm not trying to help anybody. But but this is a matter of conviction. This is a matter of principle. You know, this is not a matter of strategy. This is not say, okay, let's let's try to find the best way to to make these health restrictions go away. You're trying to trying to win, you're trying to obey the Lord. It was simply be faithful. The Lord calls me to gather as a pastor, and so I will gather. It was simply a matter of conviction, a matter of principle. I love that.
SPEAKER_00You know? Man, so you get out on the the restrictions are raised, the numbers are expanded. Yeah, you get out. Can you tell us what has happened at your church since then? And obviously, the preface to all this is, and it it's hilarious for people that we're talking at lunch today. You preach, we preach the word in season and out of season. So it was out of season, and you're going to prison. It became in season in some ways for your church, for our church, a lot of churches. Yeah. What has happened since then, since this group was dwindling down, you're gonna gather anyway, to now after?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, because I was there for you know almost three weeks of second time. You get into routine in prison. So I've I've got a notebook, I've got a pen. So I'm I got my Bible, I I'm writing sermons. I'm just ready. Like you let me out and I'm ready to preach. Yes, sir. And so that that first Sunday, I think I was I was out probably it was like a Thursday or Friday that week. And uh so so my associate pastor Alex, he was he was he was ready to go. But I called him that Friday night. I'm like, sorry, Alex, I I got this Sunday. Yeah, I already got a sermon ready, and so I remember preaching from Matthew 10 about how the Lord sends us out a sheep in the midst of wolves.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And then you know, you'll be brought before rulers and magistrates, but but stay loyal to Christ to the end. And so I I preached that message, and that just yes knit our congregation together. You know, others had come, some just to see the spectacle, some, some to support, but others because they their minds had been changed through COVID about the essential nature of the church and of gathering. And and they're listening to my sermons, or listening to James Coates, or listening to John MacArthur. And so they're not just keyed in on gathering, but on reform theology, on the gospel. And so these are people hungry for the word who didn't realize they were were part of a church where they weren't hearing it.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And so so they started gathering and we couldn't, we couldn't contain in our facility anymore. So we had to start renting space, and and at this point we've uh God has blessed us and providing us a new church facility that can hold us. And so the Lord has has blessed us through that time numerically. Uh the Lord has blessed us uh and seeing people come to come to Saving Faith in and seeing Christians strengthened especially, you know, to l to live for Christ, no matter the consequences. Yeah. Because immediately after you know all that pressure is put upon the church, it seemed like the next the next winter brought pressure upon the people in the congregation. Uh I'm not sure what it was like here, but especially in Canada with all the different vaccine mandates, yeah. That put a lot of people in a conflict between do I choose my job or do I choose my my my autonomy over my body.
SPEAKER_00So that was the next wave here as well, where once restrictions were lift, everybody's gathering, the sort of new battle or the new fight was Christians at their jobs and Christians in the church wrestling through, and I think the government at that point, even, you know, whatever political commentary we can offer, I don't I don't even remember half of what you know the issues were. But I remember people now, the government had sort of given up on trying to control churches from gathering. However, at a lot of businesses, right, you had to take, and if you were in any type of medical industry in the US, and we were all calling it the jab, you had to take the jab when people wouldn't, and some people were losing their jobs, some people were willing to lose their jobs, some people had to do it to travel. I think I remember some of that as well for like sports teams, pastors, missionaries. Now I'm it's memory recall. Missionaries were having to decide if they would do it to go back, put themselves in their body in harm's way. So for you guys, kind of the same thing. I remember all of that. Yeah, and you guys made it through that era just fine.
SPEAKER_01We made it through that because, well, they didn't come after church anymore. So even though restrictions came back for our church, they didn't didn't enforce it the next winter. They just left us alone. Uh, I think at that point, you know, public opinion was beginning to shift against against the government, and so they didn't want to put anybody else in jail. So they they kind of left us alone. But then our people were given an example of what it looks like to have your convictions settled and understanding you know, there are limits to Romans 13, to the authority of the government, especially over your own body. Totally. And then Romans 14 also gives us the idea of how we ought to work together, and these are matters of conscience and conviction. We ought to respect those. And so it was hard for some of our folks, and our our church had to come alongside and to you know help other brothers or sisters who lost their jobs because of that. Uh, but the church loved one another and cared for each other through that time. And so I think what happened to us the year prior really helped prepare us for that season. And more people continue to come because we were a church willing to address those issues. So you know, so many other churches just wouldn't say anything about it. You know, they didn't want to get into the weeds of, oh, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a politician, I'm not a lawyer, as if you need to be a lawyer to speak about law, you know. Um so people were looking for guidance. So a lot of folks started coming to our church because they just wanted some pastoral help to navigate you know the craziness that they're experiencing in the world.
SPEAKER_00I'm so grateful. Grateful for your faithfulness and grateful to get to know you and spend time with you now and get to have the program we're part of and spend time together in that. One last thing as we finish up. Could you speak to principles or exhortations or encouragements for people based on what you went through and based on that whole season and what you were enduring in the middle of it? How would you encourage a Christian now? It seems as though I would say this pastorally, maybe you would say the same thing. Remember post-9-11, churches filled up, America's going back to God, because it's pretty shaking for people. COVID, a lot of churches fill up, explosive kind of quote unquote renewal, maybe is a good word, or a revival in the sense of we have a revived hunger and a revived thirst for church, the gathering, like we're never gonna let them do that again, and we're never gonna this things die down. It's starting to mellow out, or it has. I know an elect an election year here in the US is coming in 2024, so there'll be some upheaval, but overall, COVID's sort of the thing we learned from, and it's a thing of the past. How would you encourage and to prepare and even maybe light a fire under Christians, pastors in the church still to keep the flame of conviction burning strong, but also to prudently and calmly, faithfully prepare for what is ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Which we don't know. That's right. What's next, right? Yeah, I'd say there's probably three three main things. The first, the most important, is to remember the centrality of the gospel, the centrality of Christ and his lordship. I think through this time we recognize that that Christ is his Lord of the church. This is his church. And uh but his his lordship is uh is over more than just the church. And so to think about the centrality of Christ in our lives as individuals, he is he is our our highest loyalty. So when and other when other things compete with our loyalty to Christ, we must always be faithful to Christ. So that that's the we have to the establish that as a primary conviction. Beyond that, I would say secondly, that church history was very helpful. You know, we uh we read through as a family through that time. Um I told my boys to read Five English Reformers by J.C. Ryle, to talk about those English martyrs and their faith. That that is it's so encouraging to see other believers be faithful before you. It's uh they're a living example of what faithfulness looks like in times of pressure. And uh there's another book called Trial and Triumph that this is it went through like a history book of all these different Christians, and you recognize that you know what happened to John Bunyan is not uh unusual. That's the Christian life for many people. Yeah. Actually, what's unusual for us is the prosperity and the freedom we've enjoyed in the last few hundred years. That's not normal. And so we need to have an understanding of what normalcy is so we're prepared for it. And then finally, I would say that people really need to develop and hone their convictions based upon the word of God. You know, to to make sure that when something happens, don't just like get on the computer and say, oh, what's MacArthur at Grace Community Church doing? You know, what's what's a Devra doing at his church and what's oh what's Coste doing? And so and then trying to see what you should do. It's like it might be helpful to understand how they're applying the Bible or what passages they're using, but then you open your Bible, you know, especially pastors, you know, get into the Word and and seek to apply those different texts to your situation and make sure that your convictions are based upon God's word and that what you're trying to do is obey God. Not just follow somebody else, but I want to obey the Lord. Um there's always that that remnant motif in scripture. You know, if if you follow the crowd, chances are you're not following Christ. And so it's important that your convictions come from the word.
SPEAKER_00Brother, thank you beyond. I know you won't say, you're welcome, because you just we're walking obediently, but thank you for sharing the story and thanks for being an encouragement and exhorting others. And I praise God for Raquel, the bride the Lord's given you for your children, for your church. So Fairview Baptist. Yes, just outside of Calgary. Right in Calgary, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're in Calgary. Can you see the saddle dome? Uh we we've moved locations now, but you can see downtown where it's up the hill. You're right near Calgary Stampede. Oh, yeah. We got it all there. You're not a Leafs fan. You're still gonna be a loyal Flames fan. Well, you know, I don't really cheer for any hockey team. Whatever one you're cheering for, Costy, I'll give you a couple of except for the Leafs.
SPEAKER_00Oh, James Coates can't stoop that low. James Coates probably just jumped out of his seat for a second when you're like, whatever, because I'm a Leafs fan. Coates is a Leafs fan. He wore a Leafs jersey in the B-roll footage of the essential church stuff.
SPEAKER_01Well, there's some things where I want to be on the winning team.
SPEAKER_00Oh come on.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't do it for the Leafs.
SPEAKER_00It's ingrained. Bleeding Heart Leafs fan over here. But most of all, not just not loyal to a team, loyal to Christ. Yes. Brother, thankful for you, love you. Thanks, man. Appreciate you. What an example of conviction, faithfulness, thoughtfulness, pastoral sensitivity, and boldness and courage to preach the truth and to walk faithfully in what Tim knew God had called him to do. Thanks again for listening. And don't forget, this is in video podcast format. If you're watching this on YouTube, great. But if you haven't already subscribed to our YouTube channel, be sure to do so. And if you'd like to watch this interview in its entirety on video, it's available at our For the Gospel YouTube channel. For free resources or to become a monthly gospel patron and partner with us to put out these free resources, you can go to forthegospel.org. And don't forget, we're on all social media channels where we post videos and encouraging articles every single week to spur you on to live for the gospel. On that note, I'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.