Welcome to the Further Gospel Podcast where we're all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on this episode, we have part three of our series with Tim Chalice on suffering and grief and loss. Episodes one and two were incredible, insightful. They were biblical and certainly impactful and encouraging. I've asked Tim to join us for this third and final episode to talk about how we grow closer to the Lord, even in the midst of what would be the unthinkable, the thing that people don't want to experience, and it's the loss of a dear, close loved one. Tim, thank you so much for being on the For the Gospel podcast for this series and this episode.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad to be back.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, you have said it before. It's possible to love God more after loss than before. I'm going to play the cynical slash uh uncertain friend here. Like, how is that possible? Don't you feel like a part of you died the day that Nick was lowered physically in the grave? Don't you feel like there's this part of you you'll never have back? How can you love God more and feel more spiritual closeness to him?
SPEAKER_00I think the key is that God reveals himself to us in certain ways in our sorrow that we haven't yet experienced in our joys. And so it's in those times of sorrow that God comes through on all these promises he makes. It's it's in our sorrows that we get to see God as the good shepherd who truly does lead us through the valley of the shadow of death. You may not have noticed in Psalm 23, it's David is speaking about God, but it's when he's in the valley of the shadow of death that he starts speaking to God. So God is so present with him there. Now you are with me, your rod, your staff. They come from me. God is no longer abstract, God is there with him. There's many other ways that God reveals himself to us in sorrow that we simply haven't seen before and uh or maybe haven't seen to that degree. And as God reveals more of himself to us, what can we do? But come to love him more for who he truly is. We get to see more of the goodness of God. We get to see more of the heart of God, we get to see uh maybe place deeper confidence in the good purposes of God. And so that I think is how God draws us to himself in our sorrow by simply revealing more of himself. And the more we know of God, the more we see of God, the more there is to love in our God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's super helpful. Could you give some tangible kind of examples of what God has done, I'll say, through this to bring you closer to himself and maybe take us into those. And if you're able to share uh for for your wife, for your daughters, uh, how that process has been as well.
SPEAKER_00A lot of it has been very normal. God usually works through very normal means. And so if you can see uh a member of the church bringing a lasagna to your house as a person in the church bringing a lasagna to your house, or you can see it as an expression of God's love for you, caring for your needs for another day, or somebody bringing a Bible verse to you. You can understand that is a friend speaking truth, or you can say, no, that's God's own word. That's why when somebody comes and brings some scripture to you, you can't ever turn aside from it. That is God's word, and God may have just given that person just the word. Isn't that how we'd expect the Spirit to work? To burden one person with a word that they would bring to another person. Um, and God does things like that. So most of it was in ways that are very, very mundane. It's how God showed us who He is, how God cared for us. There were also some unusual circumstances. Twice I was at the cemetery just completely broken and just, you know, needing to be near to where Nick is, uh where his remains are, and just having to be there and just so, so sorrowful. And on two different occasions, it just so happened that there were other Christians there. One time uh somebody I didn't know, but somebody who recognized me and came over and ministered to me. I write about that in the book. Another time one of our deacons was there with his wife. She was new to the town, new to the country, and he just thought he would drive around and show her the area, and as he passed by the cemetery, he thought, I'll show you where this young man from our church is. And I just happened to be there at that moment, completely brokenhearted, and I just said to him, Would you just pray for me? And he prayed for me, and it was just God himself through his people ministering to me and comforting me. And so that's that's not a miracle, that's just God in his providence, bringing me where I need to be, bringing that person where he needed to be, and bringing me comfort through one of his servants.
SPEAKER_01I like that you said you can choose to see someone bring the lasagna to your house as just somebody brought you lasagna, or you can choose to see it as God's love. I can't think of a more helpful perspective even on what happened in the cemetery. You know, it just happened to be, or oh, it no, these are great moments in which God is meeting us right where we are and his providence is at work. Can you uh take us into your day-to-day thoughts and your longings about heaven, about Christ? And then uh would you perhaps give permission pastorally and theologically for parents and people to long for reunification? Like, talk about how excited you are if you are to reunite with Nick. I've talked to Randy Alcorn about this before. Obviously, uh he's written extensively on his beloved Nancy and like their the joy and their longing for heaven and the new earth. What are you going through now and have been and continue to as you long for heaven?
SPEAKER_00I do long for heaven, and I think I long for it in a new way because there's a sense in which heaven has become more present, more real. Now that somebody I know so well and love so much is is there. Uh, we don't really think about it a lot until somebody's there. It's it's maybe not unlike people who immigrate from one country to another. You don't think a lot about that country, but then suddenly your loved one moves there, and now you're thinking your your friend goes as a missionary to Zambia. You've never heard of Zambia before, but suddenly it's on your heart and it's in your mind, and you think, I'd like to go to Zambia. And uh, even more so as more of your friends move there and more of your your loved ones. And and that's the power of uh that's what happens with us in heaven, too. My dad went to heaven shortly before Nick, and now Nick's there, and since then some dear friends. And I assume as life goes on over time, more and more of the people I love and have built my life around will be there waiting for me. So of course our hearts start to move from from here to there. Now, ultimately, our hope, our longing is Jesus Christ. And I've been challenged by this a lot. That um when Paul in his epistles talked about longing for heaven, his longing was to see Christ. And so we need to be careful that we're not willing to take the benefits of Christ without Christ himself. So um, I want heaven, I don't really care if Jesus is there or not. What I really want to see is Nick. Um, we need to be careful that our hearts are oriented properly, that our longing truly is to be where Christ is, to see our Savior face to face. On the other hand, I don't think we need to completely pull those things apart as if there isn't some very close and intimate connection between the presence of Jesus and the presence of Nick. And um fairly early on, I was really grappling with this, and I sort of talked to a friend and said, um, I'm a little concerned that my longing for heaven is so much to see Nick, I kind of sound like a pagan. He just said, No, you sound like a grieving dad. And that was a huge comfort to me. And I think over time my longing for to see Nick is is the same, but my longing to see Jesus has has increased because Jesus is the one who will bring me to heaven, Jesus is the one who brought Nick to heaven, and he's the one who will reunite us.
SPEAKER_01Amen. How has your prayer life changed or or has it?
SPEAKER_00It has. Yeah, I think there's more of the thy will be done in my prayer life to understand this is God's world, and his purposes are going to supersede my own, and I need to be okay with that. In fact, I have to want God's purposes to supersede my own. And so um Jesus didn't want to be put to death on the cross. He feared it. It wasn't high on his list of things to do, was to go through that that time of intense suffering. But he knew if that's God's will, if that's the Father's will, that is good, and so I'm willing. And so I think for for me, I've had to pray that more, that um I am your servant and I'm here to serve you. And if that means I need to suffer more losses for the sake of your name, if you would call me to do that, I'm willing. That's not the same as saying I want to or please, please do this, but now I know from personal experience that God will see me through those things. I have more confidence than ever that God really can lead through those things with faith intact and love intact, and so many evidences of God's grace along the way. I I also know how hard it is, and the sorrow and the tears and and the weeping and all the different temptations that can come with it. But I do, I do pray, nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done.
SPEAKER_01Really good. Do you you you said something that triggers another question in my mind? Uh could you pastorally kind of speak to this? Are we supposed to, as Christians, pray for trials to come or prepare and pray that we would endure in the midst of them? I guess I'm asking for like for a Christian listening, are they supposed to um you know pray, Lord? Because you kind of said like these are things we loathe or we wince about, but we trust the Lord. You mentioned Jesus. I'm sure there'll be people who maybe think, like, wait, what? When you said he he didn't want to or he didn't like it, they're like, What are you talking about? Jesus wanted to go to the cross, and then they forget the author of Hebrews says he he for the joyset before him endured the cross, despising its shame. It Jesus wasn't like jumping up and down on his way to the cross. Should Christians be praying in an ascetic way, like, Lord, bring the trials, humble, like, or should we be praying differently? Speak to that. I think people debate on all sides on this one.
SPEAKER_00I don't think scripture anywhere tells us to ask God to harm us or ask God to bring trials upon us. On the other hand, we should never be surprised when he does, because the Bible makes it very clear that to live in this world is to suffer and to be a Christian is to suffer. Uh, the craziest thing is the world is when Christians ask act all affronted when they're persecuted, when society turns on them. Jesus is very, very clear that that's going to happen. So when it does happen, we need to accept it. We need to embrace it as an opportunity to serve God even through those. We can still take hold of the means available to us, you know, pursue legal means, whatever it is, but we can't be surprised when the world hates us because, well, it sure hated him, and uh we're following in his footsteps. And the same is true with trials. We shouldn't be surprised when they come upon us. Um but that's not the same as saying we should wish them upon us. We're not we're not ridiculous, we're not masochistic here and trying to bring harm to ourselves. But when it does come and it it inevitably will come because that's the nature of this world, uh, there is a sense in which we simply need to embrace it as part of God's will and not be shocked as if God has done something unusual or strange or um even evil.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Two questions for you to to land the plane on this whole series, and they're big ones. Take as much time or as little time, uh, take us on a journey or right to the bullseye, however, you desire. Number one, what would you and Aileen say to grieving parents who are listening to this right now?
SPEAKER_00You can do this. That was what somebody said to us early on, and it was very, very good for us to hear. We can't do it in our own strength, but we can do it in the strength of God who's who's called us to it and will see us through it, and who will eventually deliver it, deliver us from it. So we needed to hear that in the early days. Somebody to look us in the eye and say, You can do this. And another thing that was very helpful for us to hear is a mutual friend put us in touch with a couple in our neighborhood who had endured the loss of a child, and we went out for a walk with them, uh, maybe a couple of months after Nick died. And one of the most helpful things she said, she asked, How long has it been? And we said, It's been two months. And she said, Oh, you're still babies. And we thought, okay, that's good to hear. We're still so new at this grief, and we felt like children in our grief, still trying to figure it out, still just grappling with things. And she said, It's going to take probably a couple of years before you feel normal, a couple of years be before you can say, This is the new normal. You'll never go back to the way you were, of course. Um, but you will find some new normalcy again, and you will be able to laugh again, you will be able to smile again. Um, you'll never stop loving your child. That was so helpful for us to hear. Your love doesn't go away. As I said in a previous episode, your love continues to grow, and that was a joy to hear as well. So I want people to know, to know things like this, but to believe you can do it because God will give you the grace, God will give you the strength, he'll carry you through it, and you'll continue to love him, you'll continue to serve him, you'll continue to bless his name.
SPEAKER_01What a wise couple, and comforting words, because I would imagine that when we go through things like this, you can feel like you're on an island, like nobody understands, like nobody's going through it but you, and then an older couple uh in the seasoning of how long they've been through it. So you're just babies, and you realize, okay, I I maybe feel a little safer or a little protected in my ability to just be where I'm at with this. That's so helpful, Tim. Last question What would you and Aileen say to fearful parents who dread the thought of ever enduring what you have? Maybe they've been listening to this whole series or they just have dabbled in parts of it because they just can't bring themselves to to hear it or think about it. I would bet that your book is like that. I'm gonna keep plugging it and saying like people need to read this, and I'm sure there's people that look and go, Oh, I just I can't. I'll be honest with you before you answer. I opened your book when I first started reading it and had to kind of brace myself once I started getting in those first few pages. I sort of just took a heavy breath and said, I'm going to keep plowing because I already know what's coming. There's this daunting nature as parents, like and you said aliens' biggest fears were pandemic, lose a child, tornado. So speak to parents who are gripped by fear. What would you say to comfort them and give perspective?
SPEAKER_00There's so much I could say, but I think the first thing that needs to be said is God may call you to do that. Um and and you shouldn't try and live your life in such a way where you're hedging your bets or where you're um somehow setting yourself up so that if it does happen, you think that's not the bargain I made with God. And if He's going to call me to do this, I'm out of here. And I think for some parents that is essentially what happens is they're Christians up to the point they're called to suffer. Uh they think they're Christians up to the point they're called to suffer, and then they're out of here because they did believe some form of the prosperity gospel or something like it, which says that in this life we should expect blessings, not pain. And if what if pain does come, that's not God's will. And uh that's that's unfair or a lack of faith on your part or something else. So God may call you to endure that, and that's simply life in this world. But then I think you can take comfort that if God calls you to do it, God will also equip you to do it, and you'll find that it's as bad as you thought it would be, but also it's not as bad as you dreaded, in that God's comfort is far sweeter than you can imagine. God truly does comfort us in our pain, and that comfort is a part of God's, is a part of him, a part of his character that is so precious to experience. Um we all do that in our losses. Um we we experience God in that way and deem him evermore worthy of our praise. Um, and then I would want them to know you can do it. If God, like I said before, if God calls you, he'll equip you, and he'll lead you through. Um, he will he will bless you. And a lot of the ways he'll do that will be through his people. He will call and equip people to be there at the right time, to say the right things, to bring the right words, whatever it is, to bring you comfort, to bring you hope. And you truly can emerge from that time loving God and praising his name and longing for heaven all the more.
SPEAKER_01Tim Chalice, where can people uh get more wisdom and insight and teaching from you as far as online? And then um I'm gonna I'm gonna make mention of this one more time and we'll have posted it as well on social media. Where can people go to get more resources from you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, nice thing about having a unique last name is it's probably gonna be my handle wherever it is, my username anywhere. So I'm at challies.com, or if you go to any of the major social media, just do slash challies and you'll probably pull me up. So that's where I tend to hang out. The book is available wherever good books are sold, as they say. It's just been translated into Spanish, so it's available in Spanish now as well. And it's been a joy to um hear from people who've been reading it there. And I do say that there's a letter that can go along with the book. So if you're gonna hand it to somebody who's experienced loss, you can go on my website, go on the page there for seasons of sorrow, and there's a letter you can print out which just helps people understand what the book is and how it may serve them in their sorrows, and also provides my contact information. If those parents want to reach out, I'd be glad to interact with them and uh at least just express my sorrow and and pray for them.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. I want to add one more element to this for those of you listening or watching. This is what we can't uh lose in this process. And and I'm glad you're doing this and and you will keep doing it. I think it's a ministry of sorrow that the Lord has given you. But I've got to tell people if you're new to Tim's ministry, you are getting the tip of the iceberg right now. So uh there is a number of books, but I have read and we continue to give away Run to Win. So you you have been a pastor and you've been gunslinging biblical truth for decades, and now this kind of new season, the Lord has has seen fit to uh give you this ministry through what has happened, but you have been doing this. So Run to Win, you have a book. Can you talk about the book Sexual Detox with pornography and issues? But Run to Win is a book we give away to men. There's a book called Do More Better. You are a productivity uh guru, Tim. I know you'd be humble about it, but that book was a game changer for me. Of those three, could you share? Are there any more kind of resources that people you'd want them to check out?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's another book called Devoted, which I hear a lot about. And um, it's a book, it's short biographies of women who were the foremost spiritual influence in well-known men. Sounds a little odd, it's it's about mothers who are the foremost influence in their sons' lives. And so I think a lot of people have benefited from that and just enjoy being challenged by these moms who love their boys and to set them on the path to what we would consider greatness. Um, so that's a fun one as well. And then, yeah, run to win is for men meant to help them understand what God calls us to. Sexual detox for those who are trapped in pornography and unsure of how to get out, what to do, uh, hopefully it can serve them. And then, yeah, a few other books as well, and some more on the way.
SPEAKER_01I love it, and thankful for your ministry, and that's all through Cruciform Press, correct?
SPEAKER_00All those ones I mentioned are through Cruciform. The most recent, um the most recent books are through Zondervan. Zondervan, yep. Including Seasons of Sorrow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Awesome, brother. Well, I am beyond, beyond, beyond thankful for you. Really appreciate you doing this. We'll have to have you back one of these days to talk about some of the other uh incredible topics that you've written and preached on.
SPEAKER_00I'd love to. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, to everyone who uh is watching or listening, thank you as always for for praying, for supporting, for sharing these resources. I know that I know that I know this series will be really encouraging to either you or somebody who you know, so be sure to share it. And uh if you have never done this before, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and get our free resources and our teaching resources, and then that book one more time from this entire series, Seasons of Sorrow by Tim Chalice. I would encourage you to buy one for yourself, get one for a friend. And if your church is not aware of that resource, something that we're doing at our church uh in the month of March when these episodes get released, is we're just making that our resource this month. And so getting a ton of copies for our church because this is one of the premier topics I think Christians just aren't very equipped on. And if we would be, we'd have perspective when we experience loss and we'd have perspective for walking with others in the midst of their loss. As always, you can connect with us and keep up on social media. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.