Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and I want to welcome our listeners on Apple and Spotify or wherever you download your podcast and those watching this on our YouTube video podcast format. Okay, so today's episode is the start of a four-part series on worship. I am so excited. I've been waiting to release this to you. I got to sit down recently in Louisville, Kentucky, as they say, with Sovereign Grace music. Bob Coughlin, Devin Coughlin, and David Zimmer. We talked worship, all things worship. And when I say worship, what I'm referring to in its application would be music. If you followed our ministry long enough, you know that I make a big deal about worship being everything from preaching and singing to giving and fellowshipping to discipling. All of life should be worship unto God. It's a the word is prosceneo in the Greek. It's a bowing down. So all of life bowed down before God is worship. But in this series, I'm saying worship and referring to music. And that's what they're doing as well. And the way that we gather as churches and worship is so important. Four episodes. The first, which is this one, is gonna be the expression of our worship. We're talking about hand raising, not hand raising, uh, emotionalism, what is too much, man-centered expression, stoicism, what is trying to be what we think we're supposed to be, because we don't want to be accused of being out of order. Really important conversation on expression that you're about to listen to. And then we're gonna talk about the theology in our worship. The doctrine matters when it comes to music and lyrics, and so Bob, Devin, and David are gonna give a ton of wisdom on that. And then the third episode is gonna be the style of our worship. Is it lights on, lights out, is it laser lights, is it fog machines, is it no fog machines, is it a stage, is it on the floor, is it drums, is it a cone? I mean, what what does style have to do with worship and how does that impact us and what's biblical, what's not? Really important conversation, since so much style is emphasized today. And then the fourth episode, the leaders of our worship. What should the character of these people be like who are on stage if you use a stage? Do they need to be character qualified or just mercenaries who can play the lights out? Is talent more important than character? Is it both because we want our singers to be able to carry a tune and be gifted in these things? Really important conversation to finish out the series on leadership. This was very impactful for me, being there and just hosting. I felt like a fly on the wall while these three men unloaded biblical wisdom. And I can only imagine how formative it's gonna be for you, your church, my church. I hope that this equips you and strengthens you. Maybe it heals some misconceptions, but across the board for the next four episodes, I think we are gonna be incredibly blessed. I'd love for you to share this with your pastor. If you're not one, if you are a pastor, maybe your worship team could benefit from these conversations. So, without any further introduction, you know where we're heading. Let's jump right in. Episode one, the expression of our worship. Here we go to have you guys. Welcome to for the gospel, except welcome to for the gospel on your own turf in the sovereign grace. Welcome to our studio. So good to have you guys uh on, and so privileged to be here. This is first of all a beautiful place the Lord's provided for you. And we're right in the zone that Sovereign Grace music uh records and mixes and does everything. So everyone enjoying the Knowing God album, courtesy of this spot right here. Zach right, right here. I love it. Well, I wanted to sit down and talk with you guys about worship and worship through music, because we all know just theologically that worship is a lifestyle. It's preaching, it's fellowship, it's serving, it's giving, it is singing, and it's a huge part. So when we use the term worship, of course, that's what we'll we'll be talking about. But first, I want to talk about expression in worship. Where's a lot of deeper areas to go, foundational areas to go, but I really think people love that practical conversation. Let me frame this up with two extremes, very popular extremes. Uh so I think on one side you have what I would call uh emotionalism, or I'll call it charismatic extremism. That would be the and some of that is what I grew up in. And like if you didn't get slain in the spirit that Sunday, or or really like, and no hyperbole, like fall on the floor or roll on the floor, or have a great expression or some high peak moment, and it wasn't filled with emotional uh overflow, then you didn't get into the Holy of Holies. I remember asking a family member in particular, uh, I love singing, but sometimes it seems so forceful, and you're telling us, like, raise those hands and pray in the spirit. Come on, people, and it seems like you're kind of mad at us. And the response to me was listen, you got to get these people into the Holy of Holies. Some of them are outer courts, you know, they've been watching movies and sports all week. Like, okay, we're in the illustration of the temple. And then some of them are inner courts, you know, they like the hype music, but they're not, it's not the presence of God and the anointing. And we got to get to the Holy of Holies, and so we're pursuing that. And there's like almost a well-intentioned grain of truth there where we want to experience God. But it can get too much. But then on the other side, the other extreme, what I would call reformed stoicism. And we think because we have good theology and we're serious about sound doctrine, and we don't want to be crazy, no, we've swung to this kind of like, you know, it's the right way to do it is my hands are here, and I'm looking at the screen, and I'm intellectually engaged, and these words are theologically precise, and I'm singing, and I want to sound like T4G or Chef Khan every hymn, and I'm and then I love and that there's a well-intentioned grain of truth there. Yeah. We want to sing truth, we want to engage our minds, and yet people will start to get really caught up in those. And my concern about the state of worship for whether it's our church or people for the gospel or or all that, is that we're constantly into these, but then the stones lob and the grenades lob from each side as well. And so I want to talk about expression. Where do you find the biblical balance? How do you encourage people to press in, if you will, and and seek the Lord and and come to a place of worship, the gathering, ready to go. Like we really want to sing to Jesus and we love him. But then also we want to engage the mind. Bob Coughlin with all the answers.
SPEAKER_03No, it could just be filled the gaps.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Oh man, what a great question. First, thanks, thanks for having us on this. Definitely. Uh I love the title for the gospel. That's what we're about. Sovereign grace for the gospel. Um when we think about expressiveness, I think we need to start with the fact that God has given us bodies. He didn't create us as spiritual entities. We have bodies. We are bodies, some would say. I think that's true. Um what what purpose do they play in magnifying the greatness of God? Well, that that's what we that's the question we need to ask. So, I mean, I've led in all kinds of contexts, uh, all over the world, um, but in the in the states as well, where you you have these cultural, this cultural mindset, this church mindset that it is the right thing to not not show in any way from your body that you are engaging with what you're singing. Just make it loud, we'll sing loud. And that that just seems to deny why God gave us bodies. Because in every other context, you say I'm moving my hands right now. Yeah. Yeah. Is this is this on video? Is this just uh it is on video because we have cameras? Absolutely. From every angle. Like hey, it's early in the morning, I'm old, I've got a lot of reasons. Um when I'm talking, moving my hands. You were moving your hands earlier. Uh when there any any situation that affects us, we respond naturally with our bodies. Why would we not do that when we are singing about the greatest realities, the greatest truths that have transformed our lives, unless either we're afraid of what people think of us, or we've been told theologically that's wrong, or uh we don't want to be a distraction to others. Sure. There may be reasons for that, but it's unnatural. It's unnatural. So I would say to the reformed Stoic, read your Bible a little more carefully. I don't doubt that you're reading your Bible, but when you when you go to Psalm 108, you see you I think you see the proper balance. My heart is steadfast, O God. So it begins in the heart. So what's he do? I will sing and make melody with all my being, not just my lips, but with all my being. And then he says this, awake, O harp and lyre. So he's not waiting for the musicians, or he or she or she, he's not waiting for the musicians to arouse some kind of you know feeling in them. No, it's I I I want to say something now, I want to worship him now. And then he says, I will awake the dawn. I'm not waiting for the sun to come up to give expression to what I see and what I know. And then he says, I will give thanks to you, O Lord, among the peoples, I will sing praises to you among the nations. It's like I don't even you see this rising desire to let everyone know God is so great. And then in verse 4 he tells you why. For your steadfast love is great above the heavens and your faithfulness to the clouds. So we we flip it, we say, Oh, I don't, I don't want to be expressive, I don't want to let things show. Well, well, why don't we think more carefully about who it is we're singing to? Amen.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And what God has done for us in Christ. And I there's a fear, there's a right fear about emotionalism. Sure. Emotionalism is pursuing emotions without concern for the root of them or the goal of them. So it doesn't matter what it is, just get me affected. Just get me, just get me excited. And so that's what you're referring to. It's not concerned about the the goal, the root of the emotions or the goal of them or the goal of them. That's so good. Why do I have that emotion and what's the end of it?
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_04So do I just want to feel something excited? And one of the things that's helped me the most in just thinking through this is the difference between affections and emotions. Jonathan Edwards is talking about this. But the affections, feelings are what we feel. Affections are why we feel them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And the expressiveness comes from that. So the expression that is rooted in a deep knowledge of God and what he has done for us in Christ brings glory to him. So one last thought on it, and then these guys can talk. If my wife came into the room right now, Julie, and I would, I would just, you know, we're doing this, I would find some way to tell her I love you. And if we weren't doing a podcast, if we weren't recording it, I would just walk over to her and kiss her. Why? Because I wanted to prove that you know I'm so emotional and so you know you know expressive and that's just who I am. No, it's because I love her. And I would want to I want would want people to see how great she is. Well, think in the context of the congregation, someone walks into your church, what do they see? Do they see people don't seem to be very affected by this Jesus that they're singing about, or do they see, wow, they seem to be affected by anything. You know, the the the drum, the kick drum, the the guitar riff, the lighting, just whatever it is. They just doesn't matter what's causing the expressiveness, they just get excited. That's not what we want to see either of those. We want to see people who are focused in on God as he's revealed himself to us in Jesus Christ and what he's done for us in sending his son to live a perfect life, to die as our substitute enduring the wrath of God for us, rising from the dead, ascending to his father's right hand, where he's interceding for us and reigning, and one day is returning for the bride he redeemed. That how could I just sit here and talk about that like this? You know, that that's great news. I'm so excited about it. Uh it's just so the question is how are you naturally showing to people around you the greatness of the God and the savior that you're singing to?
SPEAKER_02So I'm hearing so much about sincerity, genuine affection for the Lord, and then who who you actually are. You guys talk about uh personality, talk about even culture. Like, I I think of some of the things I hear today. I'm like, really? You're gonna tell my friends in in Zambia, like, sit still. Yeah, or you're gonna tell our friends in in some of the Asian countries or different you guys were just in the Philippines. Yeah, yeah. I mean, tell them to chill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't do that because of theology. Like, people just love Jesus. Talk about the different like personality, you know. I so like my wife is is an introvert, she's a mellow woman, and and I'm crazy. And so together, like we are opposite, and I know that she loves the Lord deeply, and she knows I love the Lord deeply, and I don't expect her to like you know do jumping jacks. She wouldn't even at a at a sports game. But me, I will sing at the top of my lungs in church and then I lose my voice at a hockey game. Like, there's a consistency, yes, personality and all that. How do you shepherd those things and talk about those things?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I thought your your points there, embodied, natural, sincere, uh are boy.
SPEAKER_04That was a lot shorter than I took.
SPEAKER_01Right in good framework. Embodied, natural, sincere. Yeah. The uh I I help coach uh cross-country and track and field at our local high school, and we'll talk a lot about running form. And uh we talk about our arms when it comes to running, and if you were to watch somebody run without moving their arms, like it's hard to imagine one, but then when you imagine it, it's like they look insane. Like it's unnatural, it's not sincere, like they have to force their bodies to do it. We're not made to do that. Uh, we should have a similar, I think, response when when we encounter the grace and glory and goodness of God and aren't responding in embodied and natural and sincere ways. It's like running without moving your arms or walking without moving your arms. It just is like there's something wrong with that picture. Yeah. Um, I I did want to speak to a little bit on the other side. I think for those that are looking around at others and like, you don't get it. Like, why aren't you doing all this stuff? And you're putting putting something on and uh kind of guilt tripping people into like, you should be more expressive. You should look like I look, or this other culture looks, or this other context looks. I remember as a uh, I think it was 12, 13, 14 years old, somewhere in there, and uh we was in a small, this is a small group meeting with high school students and a few parents, and uh, you weren't there. This I can't I'm trying to remember uh how I ended up there. I think I was hanging out with a friend. I spent the night at a friend's house, and we go to this high school, small group youth meeting, and uh 12 of us there, and the small group leader decided just like we would practice sports, we're gonna practice worship and expressiveness in worship. And so we were in a circle, and it was a uh okay, we're gonna clap twice and then say praise the Lord. All right, and we went around the circle, and then it was we're gonna clap twice and raise our hands, praise the Lord. And it was the most unnatural, uh, insincere, uh contrived thing ever. Uh but I think what happens in our expressiveness and and those those uh those practices is we think we're adding something to God. Um and and like this is something that whether whether God needs or some performance that we are putting on for God, and that just flies in the face of the gospel of grace. And uh, I mean I I think Psalm 50 is so helpful uh where uh the psalmist writes, uh, Here are my people, and I will speak, I will testify against you, I am God your God. Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you, not your burnt offerings are continually before me. I only not accept a bull from your house or goats from your folds, for every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills, I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world in its fullness are mine. Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the most high, and call upon me in the day of trouble. I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me. And what the Lord wants from us is our hearts and our dependence, and our sincere, our sincere expression of worship. But it's not He's not after our performance or or how loud we scream or how high we lift our hands. Uh and and so when we are gathered as a church and we're evaluating our gatherings based on, and I think this can be a temptation in some contexts, based on how many hands are raised? Yeah. How did today go? We asked that. Like we're evaluating how was today? Well, I mean, it seemed like 50% of the people had their hands up at one point, so it was great. It's like the mark of a home run Sunday. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And uh, and so we just need to uh uh reject, I think, those ideas and and concepts of evaluating our gatherings uh and instead press into no our our hearts. Are we sincere and genuine in our response uh to the gospel of of Jesus Christ as we encounter his grace there? Um so yeah, so and then I think I like I think you should speak to some the personality differences. You've been in a lot of different contexts, you've seen that being the introvert that you being the introvert that you all speak to that.
SPEAKER_02David hasn't met a bird he couldn't become best friends with. You're like the friendliest guy I know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's really nice. You need to get to know me a little bit better. Um yeah, I'm I've heard that personality. I think I've also heard um like distraction. Um Bob and I talked about this on our podcast of expressiveness, is there's also this sense of like we don't want to be a distraction to anyone else around us. And I think what happens is you lose out on the one another's that are happening. You know, Bob and I have um we've been at conferences, and uh and the preacher will be preaching, and the room is silent, and we'll say, like, yeah, that's true, or amen.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_00And they've told us later, as a preacher, I felt like for the first time someone was listening. And obviously that's not true, but my point is I do think it's for the mutual encouragement of one another. Um it's not like, hey, raise your hands, you know, it's not forced, it's sincere. But when I when I make eye contact with you or I'm I'm encouraging you throughout the service, part of that physical expressiveness is for the building up of everyone else. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that and that gets to the embodied nature of what we're talking about. God, God saves a people who are embodied souls. And that's, I mean, we could talk about lighting, and the fact that our our corporate worship in the church and expressiveness in our singing is not something just between me and God. We are so tempted. There is a horizontal reality to it. And so through the way I'm lifting my voice, I'm encouraging those around me and edifying those around me. Even if I think I have a terrible voice, yeah. Uh it's still edifying in the sense that I'm I'm giving to God the praise that he is worthy of and uh ascribing him, uh testifying to his faithfulness and his goodness and his grace. And that builds those around me up, uh, just like you were talking about with a preacher. Uh and so like I think we we want to recognize that. But at the same time, you can be a distraction and uh tear down those around you by either being disengaged or overly engaged. I mean, it's like it's like if you go to a sporting event and you just happen to be sitting next to that the most obnoxious fan in the entire arena. It can be too much. Yeah, it's too much, and it's not helping anyone. Yeah, and uh and it's about them and not about this, what we're doing. So if that's true of sports, how much more is that true in the congregation? Yeah. And so that's where it is. It's this again, I mean, embodied, sincere, natural expression.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think in terms of personality, I I it's challenging because when you when someone says um, I'm just not an expressive person in any context, the problem that that could be completely true for them. The problem is when you build a whole culture based on that one person's identity or thought process, I feel like well, you're losing out on the difference between all of us. Yeah. I mean, if we're all trying to be sincere and give our hearts to the Lord, that might look different with a lot of people.
SPEAKER_04And the whole scriptural testimony is that you can't encounter God and your body be unaffected. That's that's what I started with. We're embodied people. God made us with bodies to be bodies. What part do they play in exalting the greatness of God? So Peter says in 1 Peter 1.8, though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory. And so I'll obtain the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your soul. So I'll ask people to have conversations about this. So what is joy that is inexpressible and full of glory look like on you? Like, does it look like just can't express it? Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah. Just it's in there, it's in there somewhere. Got us inexpressible. And it is it is meant, you know, when people people met Jesus, uh, they they would fall down. John's fallen down before Jesus in Revelation. Um, you know, Paul Paul wants men lifting holy hands in prayer. Yeah, why does he do that? Well, isn't that like being too you know aggressive, too directive? No, we're well, we're not to say everybody lift your hands, but we are to realize that lifting our hands means something. That's great. And and when I've led at Shepherd's Conference, I think I read uh said one year, if you raise your hands, it doesn't mean you're charismatic. That's a great clarification. You might be, but it doesn't mean that. It means it could mean a number of things. I'm surrendering to the Lord, I am celebrating the victory that Jesus has won. Yeah, I am asking for help, just as little children would do. They lift it. But if that's not there, then it just becomes it's fake, it's insincere. Yeah. Uh so there there is that, you know, between those two uh extremes you mentioned, both of them have good things to say. We do need to think about and focus on the reality of what God has done for us in Christ, who he is, what he has shown us about himself, be focused on those things, but then say, that's if we're really engaged with that, that's gonna come out somehow. And that will be edifying to the church. Yeah. Not, you know, it's it's it can be a distraction, but we're asking, how can that be edifying to the church? If if Christine, right, yeah, came in and stood next to you and just kind of bland face and you know, just didn't show any emotion and said, Well, I I love Costi, really, I love him.
SPEAKER_05I don't know. I mean you love me, sweetheart. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04You've been wondering. So it's that same thing. We're we're coming together to say, to confess, God has loved us in Christ. We love him. What does that look like?
SPEAKER_02And you guys are touching on, I think, a number of different things that I think can translate as well to other spiritual disciplines when people say, Well, I do the Robert Marie McShane reading plan every year, and that's great. That's the way you should do it. And someone else is like, Hey, I journal like this, you gotta journal. Or someone else says, you know, well, I do this and I do this, and I'm reading that, and I do this. When everyone says their way is the way, versus saying, Hey, there's a spectrum here. And you may have, I'm thinking about, sorry, my my poor wife is is my only illustration today. But there was a recent time where we were worshiping together and singing to the Lord, and I noticed her wiping a tear. And but I wasn't in cry mode that day, but I was singing my guts out. And I think of those moments. And what if she told me, you know, I never see you cry in worship? Are you even experiencing God? Yeah, right. And I'm going, okay, I or I look at her and go, hey, I never hear you, you know, and she might say, Well, that's because you're loud. Uh, but that isn't there a difference and a balance in the way that the body of Christ, just like we have different spiritual gifts, yeah, just like we may exercise spiritual different disciplines differently, so long as we're we're fitting in, I guess, to what God has rightfully and naturally poured out and and given us to do, we have bodies, we'll use those differently. Someone's heart could be racing as they think about the grace of God and their salvation. And someone may be convicted, they may be singing a song and thinking, Oh, that's me. Ah, my sin. It was my sin. And in their mind, they're thinking, whereas someone else is enthralled with God's goodness, and they're kind of on the mountain peak of sanctification in that season, everything's going great. And so I do think you're touching on that balance. We don't want churches that say it has to be like this. Yes. Why aren't you all raising your hands and having the same expression force? Yes. Versus also, hey, we don't do that here. Yeah. So you're a distraction with your amen or come on preach. Yeah. I'll take a few more of those on a Sunday. Amen.
SPEAKER_00I just wanted to, I just wanted to briefly say it too, that like all of this in our local churches is rooted in God's word. Yes. We we read, it's not, we're not just talking about music affecting us. We're talking about being rooted in God's word. It's like we read and respond. We hear and respond. So when we're starting with God's word, and God's word is is the line uh that that is woven throughout our services, there will be times where in the middle of the service we'll be reading God's word and our congregation will clap.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or hands will be raised during the reading of God's word. And it's so it's not like this, we're saying this is what we're saying, it's not this like form. Sing hands raise. It's like our whole hearts are engaged the second we enter the building. So good. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04And one other thing about expression uh that hasn't been mentioned, and is what Calvin said. He was commenting on uh Acts 20, uh, 36. Paul is talking to the Ephesian elders and he's saying goodbye, and he says that when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. And Calvin says uh at that about that verse, you know, there are some times that we do physical things to reflect what should be happening in our hearts.
SPEAKER_00Oh, good. That's so good. Yeah, should be happening.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so there are times, I mean, again, God gave us bodies to say, this is what you should be experiencing. So I might kneel down sometime on a Sunday morning, just because I think, you know what, this is the best place for me to be, because right now I'm feeling pretty self-sufficient. And I need to remember that God is God, I am not. There's sometimes, I mean, grief is all around us, tragedy is all around us, pain is all around us, and we may be experiencing ourselves. For us to say, you know what, at this song, as we're singing this song, my sin or the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part the whole, not the whole, not in part, but the whole is raised is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord on my soul. That's that's a time to say, I I may not be feeling the effect of that, but that is the best news I could ever have. And in the midst of the tragedies that I'm going through, the chronic pain I'm going through, I'm going to lift my hands to tell my affections this is the proper place for you because God has been good to you. So I think that's a that's a category that's often left out of the expressiveness conversations, is that you know, for extrovert, I always feel happy. I always feel like, yeah, sure, let's raise your hands. You know, introvert might say, I'm never raising my hands until I die. And then you'll have to force me, my, my, you know, my body.
SPEAKER_00I won't bow.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but but we're saying, you know what? These are scriptural. I mean, David's point is exactly right. We use the Bible to determine what the approach appropriate expressions are. This isn't about are you charismatic? Did you what's your background, what's your personality, what's your family. This is what has God said are physical expressions that bring him glory. And they're not, it's not like they're they're bizarre or like we can't relate to them. We see them in culture. We see them at sports games, we see them with with royalty, we see them in different situations where, yeah, people are acting physically a certain way to express something. Well, that's what we do when we gather. And but we look to scripture for those expressions, and we say, okay, that's how God said he wants to be honored, that's what I'm going to aim at.
SPEAKER_02I wonder if we get to heaven and find that we had all of these odd rules. And the Lord in his grace and kindness to us is just uh He's like, they're the minions are at it again, you know, like the puny humans. There goes the clay uh molding itself. I I you you look at the scenes in the book of Revelation. Yeah, oh yeah, you look at the Psalms, and then you you you know, right to 2024. And in some of the stuff that we do, are whether it's the traditions of man or the forced of whatever, I just imagine one day we get into glory and no one's thinking about anything except the glory of God and the goodness of Christ and how much we love him. And when we walked in and saw each other today, uh, you know, the thought of even just I I haven't seen Devin in some time, and we're you know, we're brothers from other mothers, but we uh I love him and and I see him and I'm waiting as he walks in the room and I'm I'm excited to just give him a big bro hug and see him.
SPEAKER_04You mean you didn't just stand there and your heart thinks I really love you. Good to see you. It's been a while.
SPEAKER_02How is Marilyn? The three-hour time change is killing me. Stop being so demonstrative, Constantine. Yeah, it's like there's a joy and a sincerity. I'm hearing that. Okay, I have another question for you guys, and we can use this one to start landing the plane, but we don't need to crash landing. This is so fun. I'm being edified. Uh same. How should we teach and encourage, besides what we're doing right now, by the way, is is really helpful. I'm thankful for what sovereign grace does because you not only produce great music and and we're all singing it, but you teach so much of this. And just like a sermon in my church or somewhere at a conference or wherever, somebody comes up and says, Man, that really just brought me back to where I needed to be. And you see, Peter and Paul and many of the writers in the New Testament say it's no big deal for me to remind you of these things. We need the reminder.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02With that said, how do we shape and teach and help our congregations express themselves or participate in worship? That's what I mean by that. How do we get them participating so that it's not a performance or a wow, look at them. They really're experiencing God. Cool. But it's a participation. We'll talk style in another sit-down, but if you want to mix in some of this, like when the lights go out, we encourage people, you know, hey, no one, no one's gonna see you. So we just want you to have your moment with God. It's like darkness. That's what you do at your church, is it?
SPEAKER_03No, no, no.
SPEAKER_02We're in a high school gym and I'm like, lights on, skylights open. Because there is this horizontal thing happening. How do you help? How do we help congregants participate? They're part of the worship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, demand more of them. Yeah, that's what I'm just saying. Get it together, come on.
SPEAKER_00I think we can end there.
SPEAKER_01Shame public shaming we found effective, very effective. Hey, Bill, can you come up here? It really helps. It helps. It does.
SPEAKER_04I'm scared to do anything.
SPEAKER_01I think I think it it always has to begin with our hearts, you just individually. And are we encountering God in his word on a daily basis? Are we reminding ourselves of the gospel, uh, of the grace that God has shown us in before the foundation of the world, he chose us to be holy and blameless before him? It are our hearts being warmed by that as individuals. I mean, that's like as a pastor, that's where I have to start. I mean, when I think about all right, how do I lead Grace Church in whatever way? It's well, do I know Jesus? And I do I know the love of the Father? And um, am I living in the good of that? And uh, and so I think for leaders, pastors, song leaders, whatever, whatever role you have, or just a congregant, that's where it begins. Yeah, it's not like how can I get uh so-and-so, Sally, to just get her hands in the air. Like, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna sit behind her this Sunday and just kind of bump her elbows. It's like that's not that's not where we start. We start with uh just the sincerity of our of our thanksgiving to God uh for for the gospel.
SPEAKER_02So good. So that's spiritual and the the starting point. That's the starting point.
SPEAKER_01It has nothing to do with our physical expression.
SPEAKER_02I love that. You go for the heart, because that and you see that a lot in what Jesus talks about in the gospels and particularly the Sermon on the Mount, everything's about the heart. The heart starts there. Would one of you talk about practical like with what sovereign grace does, what you do at Grace Church, what are some things that you guys do on purpose in a good way to set the congregation up? That could be to do with volume, that could to do with types of songs like singable songs. I speak to all of that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so when we planted this church, Sovereign Grace Church at Louisville, uh, where David and I are, um we it was 12 years ago, we started having people come from a variety of different backgrounds. You know, when you're in a sovereign grace church, it's typically going to be expressive. There, they're just, you know, people come in, they say, Oh, here it is. Um, and they just, oh, this is the kind of church it is. Okay, great.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh but that wasn't happening. We had a lot of guests coming in who were more from unexpressive backgrounds, and we started seeing it affect those who had come to help start the church with us. And so there was no response after a song, and singing wasn't quite as loud, and fewer people were showing any expressiveness. So CJ, our senior pastor, did a uh two-part series on Psalm 100.
SPEAKER_05Wow.
SPEAKER_04And so I'd say the first thing you do is you teach it. It's gotta be rooted in God's word. You we can't we can't be reacting to our past, reacting to our culture. So uh it's it's gotta be what does God say? So as you you know, as you look at Psalm 100, it's and I thought, you're doing a two-part series on Psalm 100? I mean, it's just really not very long. Um, make a joyful noise to the Lord all the earth, serve the Lord with gladness, come to his presence with singing. So he just talked about volume, he talked about exuberance, know that the Lord He is God, it is He who made us, we are His, we are His people, the sheep of His pasture, enter His gates with thanksgiving, his courts with praise, give thanks to Him, bless His name, for the Lord is good, His steadfast love endures forever, and His faithfulness to all generations. So you have that mixture of here's the response, and here's why. Here's the response and here's why. So we taught on this is what God says is the proper way to sing to him, to approach him. And over the weeks following, then, we continue to give examples. Psalm 108 was one of them that I mentioned earlier, you know, I my heart is deadfast with God, I will sing and make melody with all my being. It's like a call to worship. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do. No half-hearted singing aloud. Um, we're not here to mild, you know, be mildly impressed with God. Yeah, we're here to say, He is great and greatly to be praised. And we want to get in on that, and because of Jesus, we can. So we're rooting in scripture. Um, and we did that over the weeks. Then uh think uh the heart issue that Devin was talking about, that's part of modeling it. Yeah, we we want to model it from the front. So that would be, you know, a pastor on a Sunday is sitting out in the congregation looking at his phone or looking at his notes uh as the singing is going on, that's having an effect on the people.
SPEAKER_05Definitely.
SPEAKER_04Um when when he never seems to be very engaged with the singing, that's having an effect on the people. So when people are up front and they're not very affected, yeah. You don't see or not even there.
SPEAKER_02Some guys are are green room touched and they're like, I'll come out when it's my turn. Like it's uh it's a part in the play.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. That's yeah. But you're go ahead. No, you go ahead. Your musicians have to be have to model it as well. Like that. That's all right.
SPEAKER_02No, no green room divas for Bob. Oh my gosh. He's got a lot of patience for it.
SPEAKER_04Um your musicians have to model these.
SPEAKER_01Some people can feel like, oh if I'm I you spoke of this just a little bit ago, but just as far as it's not we don't sing because we feel like it, we sing because God tells us to. Um and it's that it was that Calvin quote that you mentioned, just sometimes we we give ourselves to some bodily expression because that's what we should be feeling to cultivate that. And so the same with modeling, it's not a it's not insincere to model something. And so I think the I mean the sports analogy is helpful again. If I take my six-year-old to a baseball game, big Orioles fan, and so if I take my six-year-old to an Orioles game, like I want them to, I'm gonna model what it looks like to be a good fan. Yes, and how to watch the game and how to enjoy it and how to enter in. And uh, it should be the same, or not just the same, it should be all the more so as we gather with God's people, and just that's what we want to model for our children for the next generation, uh, and we want model for one another. And so our our engagement and our expression is an encouragement, also singing, singing loudly and not having our phones out, and not, I mean, it's like if I'm double fisting with my latte, two lattes here. It's like that is modeling something that I don't want to model to God's people around me. It's not it's not edifying.
SPEAKER_02You're disarming the idea that modeling or or being a pastor who exemplifies it is somehow fake. I was thinking of 1 Peter 5, 1 through 4, where he he says proving to be an example. Yes, the idea of a type. Or and we get uncomfortable with that because we're like, well, don't look to me, look to Christ. You see Paul though, imitate me as I imitate Christ. And the word that Peter uses is uh like a stencil in a sense. Here's my life, and it is the embracing of I think the glass house, where sometimes pastors in the name of authenticity and as a rejection of putting them on a pedestal go like ah, you know, but I think embracing, in a sense, the glass house, meaning, yeah, people should look at your life and they shouldn't see things that are suspect. They won't see perfection. If they're looking for that, they'll be disappointed. But you should see a vibrancy. Like I actually love Jesus. Yeah, yeah. I studied the word and it affected me this week. I was praying for you. I'm excited to be here. I do think there's an element of leaders do set the tone so much without making too much of it, being putting them on a pedestal, leaders tend to shape the way that which gets really convicted.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's Philippians 4 9. What you have learned from me and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things and the God of peace will be with you. I mean, Paul's opening his life up and saying, look, anything about me that you see, uh, you you should imitate that. Wow. And the God of peace will be with you. That that's unnerving, it's humbling, but that's that's the kind of life God calls leaders to live. He's saying it's not just what you teach, it's not just what you you might say in a in a on a Facebook post or whatever. It's the way you live, it's the way you think, it's your desires, it's your passions, it's your aims, it's your goals. Those are the things that uh God uses leaders to put up for people to follow. And we should be aware of that. So this is one of those areas where, yeah, if we're not expressing a scene, a visible uh desire to magnify the greatness of God in Jesus Christ, that's gonna affect our people. So good, you guys.
SPEAKER_00I think um I think too, just practically, uh you can teach um all you want, you can model all you want, but if you're also just practically singing songs that are difficult to sing, that are in keys that are accessible. And that the their songs that are unfamiliar. It doesn't matter how expressive you are. I mean, I have I had a friend uh bring me to his church one time and he was complaining, like, I I don't understand because our people are so passionate in their devotion, you know, when we break into small groups, and our pastor is modeling this every Sunday. He's modeling expressiveness and joy and clapping, and but no one is. The whole congregation. No one no one else is joining him. And the reason I told him is these songs are impossible. You know, so I do think, I do think, um, like just kind of zooming out uh 30,000 feet, I do think as as a as a song leader and even as a pastor, um, you want to encourage your song leader, hey, let's pick songs that people can at least engage with. You know, and I think I that's sometimes overlooked. These pastors are like, why aren't my people singing? Why aren't my people expressive? And it could be just simply it's we can't sing to these songs.
SPEAKER_02Do you guys pick? Is that I mean, you guys have done this well, and I'm just imagining now from way back when when I first found Sovereign Grace music, and we would sing, we had the YouTube playlist out, and we just start singing like the kids in the kitchen, and it's always on. And I remember I could sing with Devin, All Creatures of Our God, and that big bellowing voice. Yeah, it's true. I could also sing Oh Lord, My Rock, My Rock and My Redeemer. I could pretty much sing every song with Knowing God, the new album. Same thing. I can sing my daughter's Gracie's favorite song, right? I was like, she's like, Can we sing the yours forever one again? The yours forever one. Um but from sing the first song to the end, there's do you guys think through that? Even when you do an album that you know people will enjoy. That happens accidentally. Yeah, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_00We just stumbled into it very intentionally, yes.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, well, so with it's what we do in church might be different from what we do on an album. Okay, to an extent. And so uh the recorded keys that we have on an album, they've got a broader range, but just slightly broader range than we would have congregationally. So even I think this Sunday we're gonna do sing, and on the album we recorded in the key of C. Yeah. And we'll do it in B flat. Yeah. Which is a step down, but it makes it just a little bit more accessible. So you're mindful of it. Very mindful. Very mindful of context. And so being very yeah, and you can talk a little bit more about like what is a congregational key. Yeah. Um, but yeah, very intentional about no, we people need to be able to sing, not just is the melody singable, but can most of the voices here, and preferably all of the voices, actually sing these notes?
SPEAKER_00And uh and so that would be it's limitations that you intentionally set on yourself. It it limits you because there are keys that from a performance standpoint. From a performance standpoint, that's what I mean. Yeah, um it's like and I think that's just a different focus of Sovereign Grace Music. We want to serve our our our churches, our local churches. And uh and we're not intentionally trying to just serve the world. We're we're trying to serve our local churches first, and their greatest need is a key that they can sing together. And if that translates into churches around the world, praise the Lord. Yeah. Like that's our aim, you know.
SPEAKER_04So before we move on, like this is it seems to be a little bit different focus. I wanted to kind of cap the expressiveness, because you asked a question about so so how do you how does this happen in a church? Yeah. And we started with modeling, teaching and modeling. And I just wanted to mention two other categories. One would be removing distractions, removing hindrances, there you go. Addressing hindrances, which would be theological, you know, someone's been taught to show expressions wrong. It could be fear of distraction, um, it could be it's my personality. You know, there could be a number of reasons why people think this is in inappropriate. Some some maybe with good justification, but not maybe the full picture. So address those. Fear of man is probably the biggest. Yeah. Um I I just don't I just don't want people to think I'm a charismatic or an extrovert or you know that I'm getting too excited about this or whatever. But to address those specifically, and then the the the other thing would be to give people permission. And I think one of the best ways to do that is to say, you know what, we want to be a kind of church where we're able to express through our voices and through our bodies the greatness of what God has done for us in Jesus Christ naturally. We want to be able to naturally respond to what God has done for us. So if you're a little on the quiet side, that's okay. If you're a little on the excited side, that's okay. But we want to together be focused clearly on what God has said to us, both in his written word and in his living word, and then respond in ways that shows we are engaged and that we are actively participating in what God has done. And that that's the kind of church we want to be. So, you know, if you come from a crazy background, you might have to tone it down a little bit. If you come from a very like still, you might want to ramp it up a little bit, but that's not the point. The point is who we're looking at. Amen. So, you know, to encourage this is the kind of church you want to be, where you you're able to do that. Yeah. And then just encourage people. So just every Sunday. We're not here to be window gazers at stuff that God has done. We're not here at a museum. We have a living Savior. Amen. And he is in our midst through his spirit. And we have a God who loves us, and we are here to bear witness to who he is and what he's done and what he's said. How can we not respond physically to that? So that's that's the kind of church we want to be. So I think those points are helpful in if you're gonna lead a church into a natural responsiveness and say, from the front, this is the kind of church we want to be. Because that's the by the Bible says that's the kind of church we should be. That's the kind of people we should be.
SPEAKER_02That's such good wisdom, you guys. Let me land the plane there because we're gonna talk again next time about theology in our music and in our worship. And I wanna I want to keep going down that rabbit trail about singable songs and and how you pick them. Also, the importance of doctrine, the importance of the truth, and how we can shape our congregations and make sure that we're singing the right things. So, but thank you so much for your wisdom. Thanks, Kusty. It's a joy. Well, I hope that episode was a blessing as we start this series on worship. And I can't wait for you to listen to or watch the episodes that we still have coming. Theology, style, and leadership still to come. I'm grateful for you and grateful for your support. Thank you for sharing and for watching, for praying for our ministry. If you want to know more about For the Gospel, you can go to forthegospel.org, check out our team page, or if you want to give and become a gospel patron and support the work we're doing here, we'd be grateful. You can do that by clicking give at for thegospel.org. I'll be back next Monday with another episode in this series. Keep on living for the gospel.