Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and I will welcome our listeners on Apple and Spotify or wherever you download your podcasts, and those of you watching this on our video podcast format on YouTube. Alright, it's episode two. We've been in this worship series. It kicked off last time with Bob Coughlin, Devin Coughlin, David Zimmer. The Sovereign Grace Music crew is just off the charts. Super thankful for them and their wisdom. And this episode, we're getting into the theology in our music. We've talked expression. Now we need to talk theology. I remember a John Piper quote that a congregation learns its theology not only from the sermons that are preached, but from the music they sing. And so we get into doctrine in our worship, the importance of it. And of course, Bob being so tenured and so faithful and so proven has time-tested wisdom. And I'm grateful for all of the insights that Devin and David will bring as well in this episode. Without any further introduction, let's jump in to this episode with those guys. I mean, your feet, your hands, like you're up there alone with Jesus sometimes.
SPEAKER_01I'm conscious of everybody there.
SPEAKER_03Beautiful. And in the midst of all of that, not an inch given on doctrine. You guys love the truth. What's kind of the vision and the passion behind Sovereign Grace music and the way you guys are with such a what I would say a very biblical, not no one would say perfect, we can't, but such a biblical balance and just the drive behind the ministry. That's a great question.
SPEAKER_02Jump in. So we can't talk about Sovereign Grace Music without talking about Sovereign Grace churches. And so as Sovereign Grace Music, we are a part of a confessional denomination.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And uh and so our shared confession as a denomination really shapes what we do. And it also gives us a particular aim in what we're doing. And we exist to serve our churches. And uh and so we've got a long history of that, of what, over 40 years or almost 40 years uh writing songs to serve our churches, and that's by God's grace, I think we've we've grown significantly over these.
SPEAKER_01I think the songs we write better than the ones we wrote 40 years ago.
SPEAKER_02But uh from its beginning, it it's its aim was we want to serve these churches, uh this group of churches, with with songs to sing that reflect who we are and the passion that we have. And so I think it would it would be I mean it was passionate and it was local, let's say. Yeah, as far as that's where we started. And by God's grace and his kindness, uh it probably what 30 years ago, we definitely took more of a turn to being more intentional with our theology and doctrine in the songs we were singing. Um it came from a recognition. I'm saying this as if I was around, I was a little kid. I should give the history but this part of it though recognizing that that what we sing, and this is from the get-go, this is how it was, what we sing reflects what we believe and it shapes what we believe. Uh and so our songs teach. And so then the question is so what are we teaching? And that's uh you can speak to that as far as how that evolution happened, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Sovereign Grace Music began, Sovereign Grace Churches began in 1981.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01So we started doing music around that time. We uh Mark O'Troghi was one of our pastors, and he wrote I Stand in Awe, which a lot of churches have done. Really? Which is one of when I said our mus music's better now than it was 40 years ago. I mean, there were certain songs we wrote then that are still being sung to that. That was you guys. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03We everyone sang that. Yeah, I stand in all. It still comes to my mind sometimes when I sing it, and I'm like, where's that from? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's ours.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Um so Mark was sending out um cassette tapes, cassette tapes to uh uh different churches to get his songs out, and there were a number of us in Sovereign Grace who were writing at that time, and we started writing with him, so we would produce these quarterly. And what they were were songs that helped us sing the truths that we were being taught. Wow. So it's it's just what Devin said. It it wasn't, hey, we want to become, I mean, there was no worship music industry. Right. This is like the 80s. You know, Jesus music started in the 70s, and then the 80s were trying to figure out what in the world is going on, and we just we just want to write songs that reflect the things we're learning about the sovereignty of God, about the gospel, about the mission of the church, about life together. And those were the songs we wrote. We had one called in my generation. I want to serve the purpose of God in my generation. I want to serve the purpose of God.
SPEAKER_03We're doing the vintage album.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh but you know, uh there's one on um who is this that grows like the dawn, as beautiful as the full moon. It was from Song of Solomon. It was about the church, and it's like, I mean, stop it into the meeting. What in the heck are this about? We loved it because it was it was reflective of what we were being taught about God's purposes for the church. So over time, our our I, you know, you met you started with where confessional group of churches. We just started out of the Jesus movement in the 70s. Got it. That's it. We just kind of emerged, and God was doing this. Confessional is where we are now. That's a good thing. Confessional, that's right. But there were certain truths as we kept going to our Bibles, and then we started, you know, CJ primarily led us in a discovery, an awareness of reformed theology. Yeah, that there were people called Puritans who, you know, some people say, Yeah, they had some problems, but man, did they write some deep, helpful, biblical, Christ-exalting pastoral stuff that we can really benefit from. And then people like R. C. Sprohl and John Piper, and it's like, wow, there's this whole world out there that we weren't identifying with in the 80s, but in the 90s, we started seeing, oh, it really makes a difference if you read your Bibles. Incredible. Like, well, that that's really, really, really important. So I think we started then to broaden the things we wanted to say in our songs. But the songs were always about putting into musical form the truths that were being emphasized in the sermons we were hearing in our churches and and what we thought our people needed to hear. So sovereign great music kind of emerged out of that. I've been leading it for about 20, what are we saying before, 27 years about? Um, and it's a team, um, but we've been more conscious of uh over time, yeah. Uh Colossians 3.16, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom uh with uh singing with psalms and spiritual psalms with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Um it's like that's what we want to do. And the word of Christ is the gospel itself, but the whole word of God points to that. So what and you see it in the Psalms. The Psalms aren't just expressions, they are teaching. They are they are saying this is what God is like, this is what his people are like, this is what he's doing.
SPEAKER_02Uh you see, in the snippets of before you keep going, can I tie our story into a theology of worship is where we're going? Uh so 20 years ago, uh, we were very, and we still are, very gospel-centered. And so expressed in our songs was uh a lot of songs about the cross and substitutionary atonement and what Jesus has done on the cross. And I remember that's when I started leading, uh uh leading corporate worship. And I mean, I remember I mean think planning, choosing songs, and it's like every song better be like gospel and it better get to the cross. And if it doesn't, not even worth singing. And it was a it was well-intentioned, but it was that was it was easy, uh, but maybe a bit narrow in its in its focus, and um, and so I think as our theology of worship, corporate worship has developed, and as for Sovereign Grace music, as we've become, as a denomination, even more confessional, it was all right, Word of Christ isn't just gospel and cross. To proclaim the gospel is it's a it's a uh a fully warbed gospel, there's a breadth to it uh that we want to express. Yeah, so that's what we've sought to do over the last two decades.
SPEAKER_03That's really balancing, yeah. Because that I'm uh we're in a uh a particular era, I think, in the church as well, like with this next generation, a resurgence of focusing on the gospel, a resurgence on affection for Christ versus rigid legalism and and just doing the things that we do. And I think it's important to have that balance in that maybe a song is about the sovereignty of God. And see, I I feel this way sometimes. In every sermon, I'm certainly going to make my way to the gospel and highlight the importance of Christ in his sacrifice. That may happen though through the Lord's table, through communion, that may happen through singing, and then that may happen with an aspect of the sermon that applies it to the gospel. But sometimes I think in the intention of being more gospel-centered, people will say, you know, I I just I there there wasn't enough gospel in that sermon, but it was about uh, you know, obedience to Christ or love for Christ. I think with singing, sometimes there needs to be a balance on hey, when you sing about the sovereignty of God, when I preach about this attribute, or when we talk about or sing about this aspect of who God is, that is all wrapped up in the gospel. He saved us and therefore we love him and we want to so that's a very interesting point that you make.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm sorry. No, you're gonna be. I was just gonna say, I think that opened up your guys' um albums into like the book of Romans and an album, an entire album on the Trinity. Yes. And you know, and then uh obviously our Christmas albums are you know focusing on the incarnation, um, but also just like how that, you know, how that affects our lives, our daily lives as well. So congregational songs that we can sing about that. Um, and even our most recent album, Knowing God, you know, Devin's idea is based on J.I. Packer's Knowing God. Yeah. It's like, well, if you're connecting with this book that's connected to Scripture, and we're writing songs, all this is gonna come alive in one really beautiful way. So it is branching out from those just primarily gospel songs.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. And it is fascinating to see uh the the different eras that the church goes through. Because I remember in the early 2000s, some somewhere around there, um, we're at a conversation with a guy who was fairly well known. And um he I I said, you know, this I don't want to I don't want to mention names, but uh I said, you you I think maybe you guys could write more songs about the gospel. And at that point he said, Well, Matt Redman has written enough songs about the gospel for all of us. Oh. And I challenged him. I said, I don't think so. Um, so years later, uh, he got back to me, we talked, and he said, you know, that conversation was affecting me. And and there began to be more songs about what God has done for us in Christ, which I thank God for. I mean, that's that's to that's to the glory of God and for our good. Because when you talk about all these different themes, sovereignty, the goodness of God, the mercy of God, the kindness of God, the Father of God, and you don't see it through the lens of Christ, we are missing the primary way God has revealed his glory to us. For he who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give us the night of the light of the knowledge of the glory of God where? In the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4, 6. That's where we see the glory of God most clearly. So we're still very conscious of whatever theme we're writing on, to ask so would there be a good place to put a reference to what Jesus has done here? Yes. You're getting there. We're getting there. Not every single song, because there are some songs you want to start your meeting with that are just broader. We wrote in for one for um Unchanging God, um, How Great, which it just based on Psalm 145. Yeah. Has the line, His mercy runs to find the helpless in the week. That's it. That's the only reference to, but it's from the Psalm. Yes. But it's great to start your meeting that way. This is who God is, these are his attributes, this is how great he is, he's greatly to be praised, and then just get a little more focused. This is why.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01So that's that's part of our thinking, too, is just in the structure of the liturgy of a meeting. Yeah, you know, if you have every song saying the same thing about Jesus every time, it does, it can dull people's hearts and make them even, you know, gospel police. That song didn't have enough of the gospel.
SPEAKER_03That's what I'm referring to.
SPEAKER_02Look at the whole arc. Well, we have a theology of the gathering that goes beyond being uh a soundbite theology. Yes. And uh and so it's not our gatherings are not a variety show, and it's not this standalone piece here and the standalone piece here. And even as as pastors, and I've I uh serve with a with a team of elders, and I'm all regularly reminding the guys whatever component of the service they might be leading and participating in, like it's coming in a context of a lot of other things you're going. You don't have to say everything. Yes, like just say one thing, and this is the one thing that needs to be said here. Oh, it's so good. And so the songs that we sing, if we sing uh doctrinally rich songs, the songs are saying something. I I tell song leaders this, worship leaders, this often, where it's like, Did you did you hear what you just sang? Like, you didn't need to speak for three minutes after that. Like we said all of those things. All of us said all of those things. So good. So just get out of the way. I mean, connect it out for people, get out of the way. But it's the theology of the gathering is the whole gathering absolutely should be presenting the gospel clearly and plainly to God's people. Absolutely. And uh and and be a yeah, a rich response to who God is to us in Jesus Christ. Uh, but it doesn't need to be uh all these components separate and individual.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's towards an end. And the end is that we are affected by these truths. Not just that we include them, yeah, because it's so easy for us to become doctrinal Pharisees. Yeah, we're right, all our songs are right, we're singing the right truths, we're preaching the right truths. Great, I guess, a good meeting. Yeah. We we uh recently had a conference, a worship God conference, and um H. B. Charles spoke, H. B. Charles Jr. And just an amazing message on how our union with Christ relates to our justification. And he I was deeply affected at one point. He it's gonna sound not gonna sound deeply affecting, but he just said, God loves you. And he showed this by giving his son. And in the context, it was just it's like everything stops and you go, yeah. And so we have surveys where people fill out, we ask people to fill them out afterwards, and and one person wrote in, you know, I went to this Bible college and taught, I asked him, you know, what did you think about the each sermon? Well, HP Charles, out of five, two, five being the best, and they said, Um, you know, I've been to uh a Bible college, and you know, that was information that that I already knew. Maybe for someone who was younger in the faith, that might have been affecting. And I I just I felt bad that that was their perspective. Because if if we know the Lord and we're getting to know him better, the gospel just becomes more amazing. When you realize the type of person you realize more and more who you are.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And that Jesus Christ came to lay down well he joined himself to our flesh, entered the world through the birth canal of a woman he created, lived a perfect life for 33 years so that he could hang on the cross, die, experience God's wrath for my sins. It just becomes more and more humbling. Never old. So so we care about the gospel. That's why we love the title of your ministry for the gospel. We but it's not it's not separate, it's not its own thing. It's it's all these other things that make it so glorious. And we want our songs to to help people understand the whole picture as well as the heart of what we're here to do.
SPEAKER_03Can I ask you guys about uh lyrics and the way that those are formed and thought through uh down a particular vein you kind of brought up initially when you brought up the song of Solomon and in that aspect? There is a rightful emphasis on beautiful words, poetic words. We want to bring out the richness of the scriptures when you look at the Psalms. I mean, all over the place uh you can go through just several Psalms and look and see the language that David uses, and and yet sometimes we can get perhaps over poetic, or even some will romanticize aspects of Christ. How do you walk that fine line? I I, in a very blunt way, uh probably Devin, I mean you're all very blunt, uh, but I hear Devin saying, like, you don't need to talk for three minutes. We already said it in the song. I love I feel that as a pastor. I'm like, come on, for my own self, too. I'm like, I don't have to say it, they did. Uh I'll say this. I I feel strongly about what I would call like boy, quote unquote, boyfriend Jesus. Like the when we romanticize aspects of Christ. This generation likes that. And I'm not, I wasn't really saved long when I heard, I think I was singing it all, but when you people insert like the sloppy, the famous sloppy red kiss line and different things. And I look, I'm all for expression, deep, beautiful, poetic expression. How do you guys walk that fine line? I don't ever hear particular lyrics in your songs that I'm like, eh, well, maybe. It kind of makes me uncomfortable. Yeah, Bob Bob might have feel he was feeling a little bit uh you know over overly expressive that day. Or like David, did David come up with that line? Yeah, it's a lot of people. Yeah, probably it was probably that way. That belongs to your wife. Put that in a love letter, man, not in not on the album. How do you walk that fine line of pouring out our affections for Christ and using poetic language, but kind of getting out of the way as far as overdoing it? I don't go ahead.
SPEAKER_00I have thoughts, but I think you need to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01No, no, you first. I think you should go first.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think um so uh back to the what we were previously talking about is just for the last 30 years, that what hasn't changed is that songs are coming out of our local churches. So it's coming out of what we're learning, and I I love that that's still the focus. Um because as we're learning and growing as songwriters in our churches, we want to put that pen to paper. Um but when we come together for our songwriters retreat in January, um, there's a lot of us, and the the editing process from the point where songs are brought to the point where we have an album is rigorous. Wow. I mean it's very rigorous. Um and so I think I think on the more like romantic, you know, weird lyrics, we would catch that pretty quick. I think I think what can sometimes be harder are songs that are um true, like just period. You know, uh we say that a lot when we're like songwriting and we're editing. We will look at a line and go, you know, that's true, but is there A fresher way to say that? Or is there is there a way to say that that just brings more clarity? Because I think a lot a lot of times, especially in like reform circles, is we look at the word and we go, well, just the word. Like just you know, it just needs to be this, and you lose that poetic beauty. Um so I think we're we lean more on the like it's very heady, and how do we how do we just take it from it's true to wow, it's true and it's honest and it's beautiful. Yeah. You know, those categories. So that was the only thing I was saying.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think along with that, uh emphasizing we do we write songs in community, and that that's a real gift. And so we can only do that if the songs that people are writing they're not seeing as their own. Um we see the songs that we're writing as uh as as something. I mean, if we're writing for the Lord, we're writing to serve his people, so aiming at that.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_02And then we just hold them with an open hand, and that takes a lot of humility and a lot of trust and takes a lot of time to build that. Uh, one of our songwriters, Lisa Clow, she was talking the other day about how she thinks of her the songs that she writes as as a garment that she's that she's making. And not as a baby, not as a baby, yeah. So she made this distinction between not a baby but a garment and creatives oftentimes it is like I'm this is my baby. I've spent a lot of time with the Lord and with this song, and this is what he gave me. And isn't it? Look how cute is look, and so it's a part of us, and uh so she was saying, yeah, not as a baby, but as a garment. And so if like a seam is like off, like I want somebody to tell me. Yeah, um, if this just doesn't work, if something's crooked, whatever it is, it's like it's a gift for somebody to be saying, you know what, like this should be changed, this should be adjusted here. Yeah, um, and so we write songs that way, and that's just been a gift, and that does I think provide some boundaries for us when it comes to those lines that are like that make people cringe. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and so we I think are able to avoid those because we're writing songs that way with that disposition. I love that humility.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a there's a sensitivity to the cringe, you know. We'll call it out. So um and another thing I just wanted to mention about our songwriters retreats that I think is really helpful is when when someone brings a song, you're singing it with 14, 15 other songwriters. If we don't jump in with you immediately, churches around churches around the world aren't gonna jump in immediately. So that's also a good gauge of like, is this singable? Is this helpful? Like, can people connect to this?
SPEAKER_03I love that. It's almost it's subjective, but it's objective in a sense. If you're not feeling it, then and so so much of this connects, and um we're you're a senior pastor at a church, you preach regularly, as do I, I think. So much of this connects to to the way we worship in all facets and forms. I think preaching, you know, that it might seem awesome to me to say that, but if it or if something is my wife and I often talk about this, I'll get her feedback on sermons, or our elders or our team, or their pastors, and the the famous line is if it's a mist to you, it's gonna be a fog. The idea that like, I'm this I don't know how much this will end, but man, it sounds cool. I'm gonna probably shouldn't make it into the pulpit. It's so it is in like form when you're writing music. If it's a mist to you guys, but it's sound you're like, you know what, this is kind of cool, it's kind of edgy, like, yeah, let's try it. It's gonna be a fog to all of us, uh all of us, and then seem confusing. I yeah, really helpful to hear you guys go back and forth on all that.
SPEAKER_01This all reminds me of a uh chapter of a book, John Piper. I think it's a Godward life, book two, where he wrote a word on poetry. And the creativity, yeah, yes, but how do you keep that balance? I think it's remembering, and someone else said this, I don't know who, creativity is not something you do, it's a way you do something. So we're not just trying to be fresh, we're not just trying to be creative, we're trying to do something. Well, what is that something? We're we're trying to give people as clear and as compelling a view of God as he's revealed himself to us in his word so that they might be affected by it. So this is this is what John wrote. Um he was talking about Jeremiah and how it's so tightly structured, so you know, it's an acrostic in three chapters, and then uh the last, I think is the third chapter, or it's the five chapters, the first, the second, and third, fourth divided into 22 stanzas, each beginning with a different letter of the Hebrew alphabet, three agonizing acrostics, then three chapter three, the most personally intense of all. It's 22 stanzas. Each stand has exactly three lines, all of them begin with the same letter, you know, of the succeeding letters of the Hebrew alphabet. So it's why? Why this form? And this is his answer. It is a testimony written on the heart that reality has contours. Being is one way and not another. There are hard, unbending facts. God said, I am who I am, not what we feel him to be or wish him to be or make him to be. He simply is. We must write the verse of our lives within the constraints of unbending ultimate fact. Therefore, laboring to look and look and look at what is really there until we feel what we are meant to feel, and then to say what we have seen and felt in some exacting poetic form is a testimony to the truth that we are not God.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When I read that, I my mouth dropped, I'm sure. I just like, oh, that's exactly right. Our job as songwriters is to look here in God's Word again and again and again and again, and to get a clearer picture. Oh, oh, that's that's who Jesus is. That's what he's done, that's what he said, okay. And then to try to express that in some poetic form that makes people awake to it, awaken to it. And and so many times we err on one side or the other, we fall into one ditch or the other, which is I can be as creative as I want. And this is in a lot of modern worship songs where they'll say something that's that sounds compelling, but it at best it it could be easily misunderstood. At worst, it's heresy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's provocative.
SPEAKER_01It's truth, truth, truth, and you you you're just you're just pounding the truth, and it's like people can hardly think about what they're saying. I've had people say this to me. I I can't even think that fast, you know, as we're singing all this truth. Give me give me a little bit of you know, poetry, lyricism, uh, that will help me be impacted by the truth. So it's both. And I think singing is meant to help us feel the truth. That's what singing is for. Why do we not just talk? Why do we not just gather and recite things? Because music affects us emotionally. And when we put the most clear, the clearest way of communicating truth, this is Harold Best, I'm riffing off of him. The clearest way of communicating truth, communicating truth, which is words, with the vaguest way of communicating truth, which is music, you put them together. That's what God, that's why God gave us singing. He wants us to feel objective truth. So we just gotta be clear. If we're gonna come up with creative romantic things, that better be in the Bible, and that better make people feel the right things and see the right things.
SPEAKER_03You just answered the question why in the world do Christians sing? You'll hear that sometimes from new believers or people that don't come from a quote unquote kind of church tradition, or they're not, you know, a Roman Catholic or a Mormon or someone in another kind of like structurally similar religious uh form, but you'll get these people that come and they're like, Yeah, it's why we why do we sing and and why is it like this? Okay, I have another question for you guys. I want to spend maybe the last several minutes on this. What are your thoughts on repetitious phrases and also build-up moments? And I don't, I don't want to, you know, I'm not like one of those, you know, I forget. I I first uh I got saved out of like more the prosperity gospel, word of faith, like extreme, extreme, charismatic, kind of crazy stuff. And I ended up at a Baptist school. I went to Dallas Baptist University, and I remember one of the first times I was in one of my classes, you had to take New Testament survey, Old Testament survey, and then this class called DCM, Developing a Christian Mind. And so I'm in these classes, and my professors are great. They're Baptists, they're like, you know, Costa Hand on the roll, and they're like, You kin to Benny? And I'm like, yes. Like, ah, all right. And I remember one particular professor, he was using this phrase, he's like, none, you know, none of this 7-Eleven worship that you kids all do. And I was like, say what? Like what 7-Eleven worship? And then before I could even think further, he goes, You know, it's 7-Eleven worship is, you know, Steven singing the same seven words 11 times over and over and over. And I was like, Oh, that's all I did. The Baptists don't like that. Uh that kind of whole school of thought. I would love to just get your guys' insights because to be very just blunt, and I'll I won't play my cards, and I don't need to, I don't want to, but build-up moments can be very helpful or a crescent, I'll call them a crescendo. I mean, that's the technical term, kind of this crescendo moments, but maybe they can be overused and abused. And when you say build-up moments, you mean like repeating something?
SPEAKER_02This is different from repetition. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Two kinds of approaches. Sorry, yeah. I'm a blunt instrument. You guys are musical geniuses. So whatever we're I use the word crescendo, I'm proud of myself. That's all I got. Uh staccato is another one I think I already heard. Yeah, we're getting there. My sister's piano lessons when I was a kid. Take it easy. Um repetition and then build-ups. How do how can we use those effectively? Are those bah humbug? You know, none of that stuff. You know, Bob Coughlin says, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02So uh just on repetition, I mean, uh both what both they can be overused, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and I think in my circles and what I observe in in contemporary settings, probably what's most overused, well-intentioned, is the crescendo, the build-up. The build up. And it's every song. It's we're getting to we're going from zero to ten. And then we go to the next song and we're going zero to ten. And we're I mean, crescendo at the bridge, and and and I think uh we had a previous conversation about expression, and it it can be a uh uh manufacturing of emotional response that I think we just need to be careful with. Um, but I think when it's informed by truth and when it's appropriate, and this is this is how we should be responding, it's a wonderful support to our what we're feeling. Um on repetition, I mean, I think what we need to keep in mind is uh the Bible uses repetition. Yes, yeah and uh and so to just say no repetition doesn't make sense. Um it's not biblical. So Psalm 136, uh give thanks to the Lord for he is good for his steadfast love endures forever. That phrase for his steadfast love endures forever continues on for the next 26 verses, every one. And I mean, was David just off his rocker that day? Like, did he have nothing else to say? No, no, it's uh it was a right and appropriate response. But then we read, I mean, there's 150 Psalms, not all the 150 Psalms are like that. Um so it's an appropriate expression, appropriate response. I think one other thing to keep in mind when it comes to uh uh repetition is there should be a simplicity in the expression of the truth that we sing. Um, and I've I've used this before, but I thought would tend to think of I've got uh there was a guy, he passed away a couple years ago, uh Mike, he had Parkinson's in his late 70s, memory issues. I want him to be able to participate every week in our gatherings, and there are other members of our church that I would put in this category. Uh and so we need to be singing songs that are familiar and songs that are simple enough for him to respond to, and when there's repetition, he's gonna be able to engage. And on the other end of the spectrum, I'd think of at the time my five-year-old daughter, and I would want her to be able to participate. And for her to participate, she's not reading, and so how she's gonna learn is through repetition. And so, is there repetition that they're gonna be able to engage with and and respond with the congregation? Um, and then I think the third category would be just new people as new people come to our churches. Uh, and so I remember a time I was leading consistently, leading singing consistently, and I would think like we should be teaching a new song every month. And I might have that desire, but what ends up happening is I just leave people behind because we never sing the same song twice. Yeah, and we live we have a wonderful I mean we're so blessed with so many great songs to sing. Yeah. Uh but the reality is we can only sing so many songs. Yeah. So let's not be gluttons in the song, the diversity of the songs we sing. Uh let's be connoisseurs and be intentional about no, these this is the the truth that should be in our in our hearts and our voices and on our minds, in our ears. And let's sing those songs and let's repeat them. And so I and I'm using repetition broadly, it's lines, it's also songs. Um but that shouldn't be the only thing that we have. And I think whenever we become marked by any of those things, crescendos, repetition, expression, we're being marked by the wrong things. We're being defined by the wrong things. We're defined by who we are in Jesus Christ. It goes back to Galatians 2.20. I've been crucified with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And so I do now live the life I now live in the flesh. I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. But I recognize that starts with like, it's not about me. Yeah. Like the the old me has been put in the grave. Come on. And so now, as this new me in Christ, Christ in me, it's like I'm joined to his body. And we together get to express the glories that are due to his name.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I love what you said, uh, Dev, in terms of the psalm passage. The His steadfast love endures forever is always a response to what we just read.
SPEAKER_01For his steadfast love endures for the first time.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for his steadfast love. Yeah, and so I think um what's disheartening about the songs that are just repeating one phrase over and over and over and over again, where it becomes mind-numbing is that it's not connected to a truth. Yeah, it's not connected to a greater truth. And and and in that psalm, that's a perfect example of like, here's a truth, here's another truth, here's another truth, here's another truth. And so that perpetuates the response, you know.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think we have to ask, what are we repeating as well? There are songs that have a lot of repetition, and what we I don't I don't have any examples off the top of my head, but what we're repeating are maybe self-centered or self-serving or make me feel good, or I mean whatever it is, and and the repetition that we see in scripture is very God-centered. Yeah, I mean, very God-centered. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. And played with the right key sometimes with the wrong words.
SPEAKER_02We can get pretty hyped. Yeah, totally. It happens at rock concerts. I mean, all concerts, pop concerts. You can people get every night.
SPEAKER_03It totally is.
SPEAKER_02Emotional experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Peter says, uh, what is it? 2 Peter 1, verse 15, I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. So he he's reminding him. I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and establish the truth that you have. I think it is right, as long as I'm in this body, to stir up by way of reminder, since I know the putting off my body will be soon. And I will make every effort so that after my departure, you may be able at any time to recall these things. So, as Devin said, repetition is biblical. But you always have to ask why. Why are we repeating these things? So I said I had some examples. Listen to a song recently where they use the phrase all of a sudden 38 times. All of a sudden. All of a sudden, all of a sudden. Well, what exactly is that saying? Well, Devin's like, when are you having time to do this? All of a sudden, I counted them. Another song, Wash Over Me 18 times. Wash over me, wash over me. Well, that's that's different from like a song like It Is Well, It Is Well with My Soul, It Is Well, It Is Well with My Soul, and then those verses fill that out.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01And then the chorses come back and say, Yeah, it is well. It's reaffirming the truths that the verses are are giving us. But it but there's a lot of repetition that takes place that is is more to generate that, okay, something's happening, we're waiting for something to happen, or something to happen. No, repetition should reaffirm what we know to be true and just drive it deeper. Uh so so it but it is important. It is important for those reasons that Devin was mentioning. Who's out there singing these songs? They can't, not everyone can process all the truth that we can process as those who are like doing this all the time. And yeah, we can process this, you know, think, think, think, put thoughts together, and yeah, I get that, I get that. Yeah, they're just like struggling to keep up. So repetition can be really helpful, and I would say is important in the church that we not turn up our noses at it and say, no, don't ever repeat a line. You know, when someone is so against repetition, I say, do you ever read like a scripture more than once? Like, do you ever that just meditate on it? I mean, that's the way God builds us up through meditation, reflection on the same verse over and over and over. Well, that's his word, so we know that it's that it's gonna feed our souls, but that we need to do that in songs as well, and we shouldn't just say, no, never. But yeah, can it be dangerous? Can it be misused? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Such good thoughts. Can you guys to close just share a couple of the songs or the hymns, modern hymns you've written? And so, number one, people can can go find those, but two, good examples of repetition and or crescendo moments. Oh, crescendo moments.
SPEAKER_02I think I one we use often at our uh at Grace Church is uh Jesus, there's no one like you. And it's one of the more simple songs that we've written. Yep. Um, and that's why we use it uh more often. And uh I mean the chorus is just simply Jesus, there's no one like you, uh Jesus, you love me. Or uh Jesus, we love you. Jesus, we love you, ever adore you. Uh and then the the bridge is there is kind of a build-up in the in the bridge, and it's this this confession that all we have, all we need, and all we want is you. I love that part. And it repeats, and it repeats, and it builds, yeah. But it links back to it's rooted in yeah, the the just unmatched mercy of God that we've seen in Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's an example of the because I don't know if we talked about crescendo moments that much, but crescendo moments are riding a crest of a wave, they're not creating the wave. That's so good. That's good. They're there there's this wave of corporate awareness engagement with these truths that is causing people to want to sing them more emphatically, more demonstrably, with more volume. So then the music supports that. But what you find in a lot I don't know how much what the percentages, what you often find in in contemporary songs is we're just going, we're just jumping the octave because that's what we do. That's what we do. That's how we do the song for the city. Who cares what we're thinking about? This is where it jumps, and and you're more aware of the jump than you are of what you're actually singing.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that highlights a way that we lead that would be, I think, distinct and unique in that we're I when I lead, when you lead, it we're very aware of the particular nature of what we're doing. Uh, there's a particular people gathered in this particular place at this particular time, and and that's who I'm who that's who we're serving. Um, that's who we're participating with. And so I know for me, I mean, what I tell I so I tend to be a little bit maybe less rehearsed as far as we don't have like, well, this is how we do the song. So of course we're doing it this way. Of course we're gonna build, of course we're gonna have this octave jump of whatever it is. I'll tell the drummer, and just follow me. Like if I start building up, let's build up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, or if if I mean if I'm playing with David and it's I mean, you're driving the bus ultimately, because if you build up and you go big, then we're going with you. Yeah. Um I'm in charge. But I own the bus. Yeah. But there is this sense in which, no, it's like we we don't want to create the wave, yeah. Uh, but this is an expression of being at the crest of this wave, as you just said, which I think is um is right and good, but it does stem from that conviction that, like, no, I want to serve these people as we express these truths right now. Yeah, and so there might be a time where I lead, Jesus, there's no one like you, and we do build through that bridge. But then the next Sunday or a month later, we might sing it, and we don't and that's okay because that was the right I discern that was the right response at that time in that moment. And I think a lot of song leaders, it is it's the no, this is we've got this arrangement worked out, this is how they did it on the Recording it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. If you follow the structure, I was just going to say that there are so many times where if you're just as a worship leader, just doing what you always do, like beginning to end, you know, start the song, end the song, there can be a lack of awareness of what's happening um in the room, you know, and and the spirit could inspire you. Let's go back to the second verse. Like that is repetition, but it's a sensitivity to wow. There I I think this needs to be said again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there has to be a why behind that. Because sometimes in other contexts, somebody will be like, I'll I'll ask them afterwards. So we went back and sang the second verse.
SPEAKER_00And he was like, Yeah, that's the way they do it on the recording.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00We need more than that can be a programmatic decision as well. But um I I think it's just a sensitivity and awareness to to what is happening. We don't repeat because oh it's getting hype. It's like we we repeat because we're just trying to be intentional. Um and in in some context, like uh repeating that one more time feels intentional in that moment.
SPEAKER_01And so I think it's in other times it doesn't. So to answer your question specifically, he will hold me fast. He will hold me fast, he will hold me fast, for my savior loves me so, he will hold me fast. I don't mind saying that over and over and over. Filled out with the verses. And then for a crescendo moment, I just thought of uh, oh Lord, my rock and my redeemer. When we get to the third verse and we sing, um, Oh Lord, my rock and my redeemer, gracious savior of my ruined life, my guilt, my guilt and cross laid on your shoulders. In my place, you suffered, bled, and died. You rose, the grave and death are conquered. Yes, you broke my bonds of sin and shame. And that that's an appropriate response that the the congregation, again, and sometimes we just can't hold it. We don't do it exactly like the recording because it's just like everybody knows what's coming, and like, yes, you rose, and you just can't contain it. But that it's built, it's riding the crest of the wave. It's built on the truths that everyone at that moment is recognizing. This is what's most important. Yes, and this affects everything in my life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that line bears repeating. I remember when we were arranging that and Devin said, we have to sing that again. Yeah, because that is the main point. Yeah, let's sing that again. And what's that's what's really cool is that's a modern hymn, you know, it's three verses. In what modern hymn would you like again, tag just the first two lines of the last verse? So I think that's neat. Um But yeah, when you're repeating the main point, that's that's a win-win.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're back to scripture time and time again. What you repeat, mirroring scripture, and then the crescendo moments in songs, and I love that you highlighted that. I can pinpoint so many that you guys repeat or have crescendo moments in that are linked to scripture, but then also the resurrection, the crescendo moments of scripture are what we build up to. And so we're never anti, like, oh, we don't need all that, you know, these build-up moments, these crescendo moments. It's like when people say, like, oh, we just do it this way. I'm going, just look at the Bible, yeah, go back to scripture. So your guys' wisdom and also I think your example and your humility in this is such a gift to the church. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Cost.
SPEAKER_03Well, I hope that episode sharpened you, encouraged you, and challenged you in some ways, whether you come from one of the extremes that we talked about in the first episode, or you're a pastor hoping to see your church more shaped into what the Bible presents as clear and biblical and joyful and vibrant worship, or you're a church member with deep concerns and you're trying to figure out what it is that you're supposed to believe and do when it comes to the gathering of the saints and worship theology, so important. Doctrine matters in our worship. Next time, we're gonna talk about style. This is gonna be a very important conversation and practical because much of today's music scene and quote unquote worship scene centers on style. Uh, thanks for listening, thanks for watching, thanks for praying, and thanks for your support. If you want to know more about our ministry, go to forthegospel.org. You can check out our team resources there, or if you want to become a gospel patron and support what we do, you can do that on our give page. I'm looking forward to next episode with you. I'll be back next Monday. Keep on living for the gospel.