Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and I want to welcome our listeners on Apple and Spotify and those of you enjoying this on our YouTube video podcast format. It's episode three of our series on worship with sovereign grace music. This particular episode, we sat down to talk about the style of our worship. There's a lot of debate on this particular topic today. Should we have the lights down and tell people, hey, you know, we don't want to be looking around. Let's just meet with God and wherever you are, just express yourself however you want because nobody can see you. It makes people feel comfortable, a lot of people will say. Or should it be lights all the way on? Because worship is about singing to God and to one another. Should it be mid lighting, mood lighting? What about fog machines, hazers, laser lights? Uh, the stylistic presentation of a worship gathering is a huge discussion and debate in the Christian world, and it matters because we want to be biblical, and then we also want to be careful drawing distinctions where the Bible doesn't. This is an important conversation. Bob Coughlin, Devin Coughlin, David Zimmer, so much wisdom. Let's jump right in to this interview. Well, Sovereign Grace music team, Coughlin Men, uh David Zimmer. Sovereign Grace family members are here. Yes. Thanks for uh being here. Micasa Su casa. Seriously. Yeah, your studio. Wow.
SPEAKER_01You're obviously fluent in Spanish.
SPEAKER_02I make myself right at home. And it has felt like home. These conversations have been such a blessing. Grateful for your guys' wisdom. I want to jump in to a topic that's basically really relevant. Lots of people talking about it, sometimes controversial, but should just be clear and really in the vein of what we've already been talking about. Style in our worship. We've talked about expression. We've talked about theology. Let's talk style, the external presentation, uh culture, contextualization, all those things. I would love your opinion and thoughts, really, you know, from the hip. Like tell me how you really feel. Bob never struggled with that. On a lot of the things we've done, we I was I would give one illustration and it's all you. Recently in a church, we're using this building, and it's it's kind of black walls, black ceiling, uh, darkened kind of the vibe you can tell is built for uh fog machine, laser light, and I'm not being hyperbolic or silly about it, or cheeky even. Just it would it's built for this like experience. Yeah, yeah, venue sort of style. People would come, we we had to rent the building for a little while, and people would come into the church and go, Oh, you know, this is how old I am, Pastor. They would tell me like, how old? They're like, I remember this place was this church back in the day. I we used to go here 20 years ago, and and they were telling me the building we were in, and one woman said, You know what's behind those black paneled walls? I said, What? She goes, stained glass windows, and the lights used to be on in here too. And I laughed and had a chuckle, but like there was this era where everything needed to be dark, and it was built for production, everything built like a theater. And I want you to speak to that. Bob, you've been through all these different transitions. He's been around for a really long time. You are the ageless wonder. I I remember what are your thoughts on the modernization of style and darkness and fog and lights and experience and production neons, and pretty it really is the production side. Go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't think it changes from age to age. The the manifestations change from age to age, but the principles don't. If we're if we're again we're looking to scripture for what's happening when we gather. What's supposed to be happening? What's supposed to be the focus? Well, the focus is that it's the people of God gathering in the presence of God to hear the word of God and bear witness to what he has done for us in Christ. For the encouragement of each other, uh the strength of each other, we're being built into each other, we're being built into Christ. That's what we're there to do. And I I think in our particular age, the manifestation that fights against that, the manifestation of our age is the I just call it the rock concert culture. Uh there is this sense that because we have technology that can put lights on a stage, elevate a stage, um, we have video, we have uh fog machines, we have you know different things that can make it seem more, we lose perspective on what we're there to do, which is to celebrate as the people of God in the presence of God, to to hear from him, to bear witness to what he's done in Christ. And and the the when those uh things serve that end, they can be helpful. When they overpower those ends or they distract from those ends, then they start becoming unhelpful. So I think there's a continuum where you know you have uh the person who would think, we just don't want anything, we just don't want anything. Well, no, actually, there are some things that have been really helpful uh to to the church meeting and the church gathering. So to to have a scripture projected, say a call to worship, yeah, to have a call to worship projected on the front, that can be really helpful for people. It can help them focus. So it's not all bad. But when you start becoming dependent on it, and when it starts becoming these things, start becoming the focus, well then you get into problems. So the question is always uh is uh do I need this or is it something God can use? Because God doesn't need any of it. But he can he can use a lot of it.
SPEAKER_04I think it's so important that we have a a theology of technology. Absolutely good. Yeah, I like that uh understand that I mean we we we live in a very uh I mean obviously technological age, and it's amazing the things that we can do and the things that can be projected, and uh I mean, as you mentioned, lights and environment and all these things are crazy and and crazier things are gonna come, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_04Uh but we need to be aware that like not only do these things do something for us, they can also do something to us. Um just because uh technology is capable of something doesn't mean it's actually a good thing that it's capable of, and so I think every technology presents with it benefits and drawbacks, and I'm using technology very broadly. I mean for everything from lights to sound projection to lyric projection, I mean anything. Um and so the I mean, even even something like lyrics, let's think about. So I think it's a real gift that we're able to project lyrics, and everybody, nobody's having to flip through a hymnal to figure out what song we're at. Yeah, uh it's they're right there. But then there's also uh it has an eff we gotta think through, oh, what effect does that have on us, though? And so one of the things that it's done is it's actually taken the lyrics of the songs that we sing and detached them from context. Um, and so that's a drawback that lyric projection brings with it. So formerly, when people were using hymnals, you'd see the whole song.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And you would see every line of the hymn right there. Not to mention the melody, and the melody as well, which is a little bit more. And so you see all that stuff, and so every line is presented in context. Wow. Now, I mean, the the trend now is it's the simplicity of projection and the art of it, and so oftentimes you'll go, you go, you might go to church and there's one line projected. Yeah. And that actually completely detaches it from its context.
SPEAKER_00With like a mountainscape behind it or sunset or something part.
SPEAKER_04So for us as leaders, everything technologically, I think it what we need to discern first is is what are we aiming at? I mean, what are we here to do? Yeah. And have a clear understanding of that. And then how will this support us in that aim?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then happily leave behind everything else. Um and so I know, I mean, going back to projection, it's the the projection software that we use does a million things. And every week they, I mean, they're telling us like we can do a million more things now. And isn't this so great? And I only want it to do one thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Only one, and that's all I need it for. And it just does that thing, and I'm happy to leave behind everything else. And so that's what we do. Yeah, and so it's like one of those should we really be paying this much money for this software that does all these other things? But what happens a lot of times is somebody gets that email, that marketing email. Oh wow, like we've got 8,000 new backgrounds. Like, what should we use this for? Why aren't we doing these? Yeah, yeah. And uh so that ends up driving it. Same thing with lights, it's like, or cameras or whatever it is. It's like we can do this, we can have images of us behind the lyrics now. Like, let's do it. And not not realizing, no, that actually does something to us, that'll actually change the dynamics of our gathering. Wow. And we need to just be intentional in thinking through that. Now, I'm not saying like any of those things are necessarily objectively bad or wrong, but I think it's a matter of wisdom and and what is going to to I think serve us as we are clear on the purposes for why we're gathering together. Um I love uh Cal Newport, he's got this book, Digital Minimalism, and he this is his approach to digital technology, it's just know know what you're after, yeah, and then just happily leave everything else behind. Yeah. And I think as uh as people in the church, we should have that same approach when it comes to style, yeah, when it comes to technology.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what are you gaining? What are you losing? All of those things. And I think I think there is something that's um extraordinarily ordinary about our Sunday gatherings. Yes.
SPEAKER_02I like that.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't it's not uh what we add to our gatherings is not what makes it extraordinary. Yeah. It's what the Spirit is doing in our gatherings. Well, it's what the Word is it's the work the Word is getting done in our gatherings is the most important thing. And so if there's anything that is distracting from the love of God through Christ for us, a Christ-exalting gospel-centered gathering, it's it's taking away the main point, the biggest thing. We just talked about this on our podcast of like, you know, you put a diamond um behind, you know, a black canvas so that the diamond shines in all of its beauty. You don't throw it into laundry and take a photo. I mean, it gets lost in the colors, the chaos. It doesn't mean you're doing everything black and white or dull, but it's exactly what Devin's saying. The main thing, it has to be so crystal clear in our gatherings. Or an unregenerate heart isn't gonna know what the takeaway is. Yes, yeah. And it's not serving the the you know, the regenerated heart either.
SPEAKER_01So I think one of the reasons that we struggle with this so much is just is a misguided aim, but well-intentioned aim. Yeah. We want more people to come into our church gatherings on Sunday mornings. What will draw them? And someone said, you know, what you what you win them with is what you win them to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's just true. Yeah. Uh so if they're there because of the exceptional lighting, radiography, production, yeah, just one word, production. Yeah. We are robbing them from the opportunity to encounter the living God. So I wanted to read this passage from Hebrews 12, you know, where it talks about in verse 22 what's happening when we gather. And I don't think we get this. So imagine, you know, in every age, it's it's the same challenge to think this isn't really happening, to forget this is really happening, to not believe this is really happening. You, you know, he says you haven't come earlier, you haven't come to basically Mount Zion. You know, a blazing fire, darkness, gloom, and a tempest, sound of a trumpet, a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. You know, it's just this fear, there's also this, oh, I'm gonna die. That's not what you've come to. You have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels and festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. That's who we're meeting with by faith in the heavens, heavenlies. That's what's happening when the church gathers. And we don't believe that. We we we just no, no, no. What's we gotta make it happen here, we gotta make these things happen. Wow. And so the lights, the projection, the production becomes experience, yeah. Some churches of experience called our meeting the experience. Yeah. That can just lead so many bad places, but well-intentioned. Yeah. Well-intentioned. But the road to heresy is usually paved with well-intentioned. Good intentions, yeah. Um, a desire to reach more people. We don't have that prerogative. God didn't give us that assignment. You figure out what'll get people to me, and then I then I'll talk to them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, he said, I sent my son, I gave you my word, I've given you the church, which you know, by your love for one another, they will know that I am the son of God. All right, you use those things, and I'll draw who I want to draw. But we don't believe that. And so there's this there don't we we can't throw everything out, you know, just say, no, we're not gonna do anything. Right, right. But the our our our worship gatherings aren't meant to be Instagrammable or YouTubeable or Facebookable. They're the gathering of God's people in his presence. There is nothing like the gathering of the church. Share that story of uh Tim from Tim Church. I'll get there in a second. Okay, when you want to. I will. I was gonna get there. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Um I what you said is I think so insightful and important, though, related to the the Instagrammable nature of our worship. And I think a lot of times, because that's what we see, we see what other churches are doing. Never and COVID did this, COVID had this effect where for the first time, I mean it was uh you a little bit before that, but really COVID uh accelerated this trend where I could see what every other church was doing in a sense, and give people that sense. And so then it was like dictated what we did, our practices were dictated by production value, and uh it's and it can we became it was easy to become about something else than what we were supposed to be about. Um we need to be very comfortable with what God has given us in his word and through his spirit as we gather together. We have everything we need, yes, yes, and the church through for the last 2,000 years has had everything it's needed. Yes, it hasn't wasn't until Per Presenter came along that it's like, okay, now churches can really worship. Like that's not the Lord was not waiting. After people know people will come. Or the microphone. I mean, think about the effect that a microphone, audio amplification has had on church practice or the automobile. I mean, like all of these technologies, they they like have a very real impact on how the church worships today that we don't even think about. But we need to think through those things. So we should be very comfortable with what God has given us and very confident in that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I and speaking to what you were just saying, we're not, we're often not confident in it. And when the church gathers together, week after week, there is something happening there that doesn't happen anywhere else in any other context in the world. Um, so this this story I heard of I heard a pastor Tim Chester, uh, author, uh, he's talking about the the village that he pastored at in Borough Bridge, England. And he told a story about Boroughbridge and the different historical things that have happened in this little village in the in the middle of England. Um, the King John walked up these, he's like, I can go to these steps, and King John walked up these steps. And this battle took place in these fields. And uh and so it's uh an area that's somewhat insignificant but steep in history and history that us Americans, I mean, can barely begin to fathom. Yeah. And then he said, but the most extraordinary thing that's ever happened in Burrbridge, England, will take place this coming Sunday when I gather with 30 people in the community center in the center of Burrbridge, and we sing together and we pray and we hear God's word preached and we uh share the Lord's Supper together, and Jesus is there. Amen. And I mean there that's what we get to come into. I mean, as you just read from Hebrews 12, every week. And uh it doesn't matter if that's in a high school auditorium, an elementary school cafeteria, a huge auditorium, I mean, whatever wherever it is, what's amazing about that is that we are are people that are loved by God the Father. We gather in Jesus Christ. I love Hebrews, Hebrews 2.12, where uh the writer of Hebrews puts the words of Psalm 22 in the mouth of Jesus and and he's saying, Uh in the midst of the congregation, I will sing your praise. In the midst of my brothers, I will I will sing your praise. And so Jesus is there with us. And like and we're participating in that. That's incredible. And there's no technology needed for that. Uh all that is needed for that is that we gather together in the Spirit of God, his word is proclaimed, and we sing together. That's happening. And we so we get to participate in these in these uh eternally significant and weighty and glorious realities. And we lose sight of that. And we and I mean it's C. S. Lewis's famous line on the weight of glory. We we content ourselves with making mud pies in the slums. Wow. And I think a lot of the conversations about style, like style technology in worship, that's that's what we're doing. Yeah, and we're obsessing over I mean, how nice my mud pie is. Yeah. That's just it's like, really? Really? We we have so much better and so much more glorious if only we'd open our eyes and see and believe.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So the purpose of those technologies is to draw attention to those truths. Yes. And as we use them for those those purposes, they will serve us well. But when we start to think that the goal is to compete with either what we saw on Saturday Night Live or at a concert or uh whatever, uh and just and to try and make what we do as good so people will come to see what we do, we are so off track.
SPEAKER_03Way off.
SPEAKER_01And I think Paul addresses it. DJ DJ, I get it right.
SPEAKER_02You just said, Bob, that we can't use that kind of the DJ who opens up our services.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what they're doing in Arizona. Sorry. I didn't mean that.
SPEAKER_01I didn't want that to slip out. D.A. Carson wrote uh a book called The Crossing Christian Ministry years ago, which is a commentary on first few chapters of Corinthians. And I'm I'm riffing him, um, but it's in the it's just in scripture where Paul at the end of chapter one is is contrasting what people look for, what they want to see. And what they want to see is, you know, um Jews demand signs, Greeks demand wisdom. Yeah. But we preach Christ crucified. So what that says to our era and is you know, some people want to see amazing things, you know, just lights and production, and and then and then other people want to hear like eloquent, like amazing, like philosophical stuff. You know what we have to offer them? A crucified savior who rose from the dead.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep, yep.
SPEAKER_01And that is greater than anything that the world is offering. Yeah. Anything. And when the Holy Spirit opens people, empowers us, and that opens people's eyes to see the glory of Christ, the world changes. Yep. Their world changes. And and so then in chapter two, he says, um, you know, I didn't agree.
SPEAKER_04I was with you in weakness and in fear, yeah. Right. So your confidence might not rest in me, but in the power of God. And like nobody, nobody today, no evangelical minister is saying, Yeah, let me tell you about my ministry. Weakness. Fear, trembling. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you're a little confused by the things that I've said. Not plausible words of wisdom. Like that's not a nobody would say that's a mark of my ministry. And and Paul's saying, no, those are these are the marks of my ministry. Because your confidence should never rest in me and what I can do, or in us and what we can do, but in God and his power and his spirit that is with us.
SPEAKER_01Although, to be clear, Paul was persuasive. He was persuasive, absolutely. Mm-hmm. He was giving it.
SPEAKER_04It's not the point of the thing. It's authentic. I mean, it's uh he picks up on the same thing. I think it's so helpful to just think about okay, how does Paul describe his ministry? Yeah. 2 Corinthians 4 is a similar uh and he talks about uh we've renounced disgraceful underhanded ways, we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth, we would commend ourselves to everyone's uh conscience in the sight of God. Uh and then he I mean he goes on to talk about the light that is shown in our darkness, uh has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And so we we've got to recognize our humanity, yes, yeah, our and our limitations and inability and the inaccessibility we have to God apart from Jesus Christ. But because of Jesus Christ, we can enter boldly and with confidence and full of faith and joy.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing. It is amazing, and bring our best. Um it doesn't become the marker, but because we've received, we bring our best to serve the congregation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's the purpose. That's the aim. Not impress them, not wow them, not get one church used to have, you know, we're looking for the wow moment. Well, the whole meeting is the wow moment. Amen. Jesus is the wow moment. Jesus is the wow moment. That's right. We don't get to assign or determine when you know someone is deeply affected. You guys. We're called to be faithful. Yep, yeah. And we are presenting the gospel clearly. Any technology we're using is to that end that people might see it, see Him more clearly, know the Word more deeply, love God more wholeheartedly. That's what we're seeking to do. So if you take our technology away, it those things don't leave. We're still dependent on the Spirit. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yes. I like what you just said as far as we're free to bring our best. I think a lot of people, you you kept going because you said to serve God's people. Uh a lot of people stop and bring our best. Yeah. And so it's driven by what I call like the excellence principle. Yeah. Um, so you've got like regulative principle, normative principle. It's like the excellence principle. And it's just everything should be the best. God's worthy of the best. So everything should be the best. So our lights should be the best, our camera should be the best, our projection should be the best, our sound should be the best, our music. Everything should be the best. And in we don't see that in scripture. Uh what we see, I mean, and and Paul talks about this 1 Corinthians 12, 1 Corinthians 14. What we see is the edification principle. And we're doing all of these things for the building up of the body of Christ. And so that's the lens through which we see everything. And so what builds people up might not necessarily come across as, oh, this is the best and most excellent. They're a different thing. Excellent can build up, absolutely. Uh, but excellent doesn't, they're not synonymous. Yeah. Um, it's how you define it. No. Well, and so I mean, I think an example uh I've used before is is there was a uh woman in our church dying of cancer, and I had her play guitar one Sunday. She played guitar, I had her play guitar one Sunday. From an excellent standpoint, did she have anything to bring? No. I mean, I and I even changed keys to songs so that she could participate. But what it did to our congregation as she played and as she sung and testified to the faithfulness of God and the goodness of God in the midst of her suffering?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, that shapes people, that teaches people.
SPEAKER_02I think definitions become key. Like, isn't isn't maybe a better way to say it almost like personal excellence, meaning our best that we could bring, but it's not an external thing based on comparing it to whatever else, or even just as us as the instruments, not because if I just out there in the sanctuary here where we are, I mean it's organized, it's clean, yeah, the stage looks great, that rug, certain things are done a certain way to provide, I think, the the best opportunity for low distraction and high doxology and beautiful presentation with what we would call excellence. But if someone had some external definition, like excellence is what I see at a concert, or excellence is like Devin, why aren't you using all of the things that are readily available to you? And then finally, you know, technology leads to to holograms and everything else that you know you don't even have to be there, bro. You can be watching the morning football games and your hologram will do the work. And that that's not even a joke anymore. That's like where we're at. Um and that isn't it what I can bring. It's it might be my five loaves and two fish. I mean, that's all it is, but it's it's all I got, yeah. And so I can do that in a high our church is a church plant in a gymnasium. And we're just trying to be bring our best there under the Lord. And if someone says, Yeah, it's kind of janky or the stage creaks sometimes because it's a high school chapel, you know, setup, like, okay. And someone says, hey, what you should do. And I'm like, no, this is our best. We're gonna do our best with what we've got because we're focused on Christ. That seems to be that like you said, definitions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and John Piper hit it right on the nose, I think, when he defined it as our aim is undistracting excellence.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's good.
SPEAKER_01Undistracting. So with a creaky stage, you know, if if that's maybe a little WD-40. I okay. I'm going home, I'm gonna get some WD-40. Yeah, because it would be a distraction. So you're preaching and that is currently happening.
SPEAKER_02So I'm gonna get a five-back. The fun that I'm standing on does keep it.
SPEAKER_01So that is a form of excellence that will serve the congregation, sure, not excellence defined as we need the most expensive equipment, we need the most beautiful equipment, we need the cutting-edge equipment. That's not excellence. Excellence is what pleases God and draws attention to his glory in the face of Jesus Christ and in his written word.
SPEAKER_02Will you say the piper line again?
SPEAKER_01That was so it's undistracting excellence. Undistracting excellence. They wrote that in Bethlehem that when they were talking about their worship service and their documents, whatever. Sure. Um, but he's used that phrase for a number of years, and I just found it so helpful. Undistracting. Because it's it's excellence, but it's defined by the word of God. What's excellent? There's a goal there again, like the why you guys keep talking about. The body of Christ is being built up in what ways? Well, they're being built up because they're all excited about the new lighting system we have. No, that's not what you're building them up into. You're building them, Ephesians 4, you're building them into Christ. Yes. Yes. And so we're just doing what we do because we're trying to read scripture faithfully and and ask the questions what has God actually told us to do? What's our aim? And we do it imperfectly, we do it stumbling along, but we're learning. And we're learning all the time. And we always be learning. Amen. But we see ministries, we see ministries that are kind of off the rails, and you're thinking, what is going on here? Which create these polarizations. It's because we're not going to scripture and saying, What has God told us? This is what's happening. Yeah. Because this, there's nothing like this. There's nothing like God's Word, there's nothing like the gospel, there's nothing like God's presence in the midst of his people. We're being built up into Christ, built into each other. And so whatever technology, styles we use, it's got to serve that end.
SPEAKER_02Can I ask you to close us in a sober warning? I know you are a happy, joyful, jovial man.
SPEAKER_01I also know my son is here.
SPEAKER_02I also know you're dead serious about the truth, and you love Jesus so much that you won't shirk back. There is a growing, if not grown, I mean it's there, culture of what I would call mercenary culture in the worship industry. Oh, man. And in local churches. We we not not that there's anything wrong with hiring musicians and having people play who love Jesus, and you know, a church doesn't have a drummer, and one of their friends locally goes, hey, our drummer will come over and drum for you. I'm not talking about that. Everyone has to be a member for five years before they can play the guitar. No, not saying that. But like gigging, like using churches as sort of a gig. Um I per this isn't even hyperbole, but like churches who use lip syncing uh or production tracks, not using tracks to fill in, but I mean actual fake singers, they're up there lip syncing. And then the churches, this is popular, it's not even hyperbole anymore either, that start the service with a Kings of Leon jam or a Taylor Swift song to make unbelievers feel welcome. Those things aren't as much the exception, they can be the norm. Some of these are massive churches. What would be a word of caution, a sobering word, not like stop it, that's unbiblical, but I mean really bringing the focus back to what it's all about. What would you say to encourage and make us think deeply and be more cautious? It's not evangelism, it's not relevant. Well, we're just trying to bring people in and win them with Christ, Bob, lighten up, you know. What would be your words of wisdom?
SPEAKER_012 Corinthians 4 7 comes to mind. But we have this treasure, this treasure, which is Jesus Christ. We have this treasure in jars of clay. So to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. And then he goes on to say we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed. We are perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted, but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed. Always carrying in the body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our mortal flesh. That's a picture of a life of ministry. It's a picture of anyone who claims to be representing God in some way. That treasure is in a jar of clay. You are the jar of clay. You know what? You can't, it's not a shiny golden urn. It's a jar of clay. And it will forever remain a jar of clay until we have glorified bodies. That's when we see Jesus. That hasn't happened yet. So you can't be cool and hip and want people to think you're amazing and have at the same time a desire to make Jesus glorious in people's eyes. There's a separation to show that the surpassing power doesn't come from us. It comes from God Himself. So we are we are robbing Jesus of the glory. I mean, he's not being he's not robbed of any glory. We are seeking to rob his glory by drawing attention to ourselves through the production, through the the image of, oh, we are amazing. You are not amazing. Just hear that. You are not amazing, apart from Jesus Christ, and apart from the fact that the image of God dwells in you, you are a without Christ are an object of God's wrath. And we don't give him we don't give God anything. Devon referenced Psalm 15. I don't know whether this this time or another time, but um we bring nothing to God that he didn't give to us, and we seek to give people the impression that we are actually making Jesus look a little more glorious than he is. Christ has become for us wisdom from God, our righteousness and sanctification, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. So that, as it is written, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. And for those, for anyone who is has seen ministry as a means of making much of you, uh I would just encourage you, we would all encourage you. God didn't save you to make much of yourself. He saved you to make much of his son. And what what a joy that is, what a what a fulfillment that is, and how true it is. That's why we're created to make much of Jesus. So we don't want to make that ourselves. That's it right there.
SPEAKER_02Thank you guys so much. Well, I hope that discussion was sharpening for you and gave you a lot to think about. Style can be subjective, it can be related to context, different countries, wherever we are, but most important thing is that we think through these particular issues biblically and come to our position by way of scriptural conviction, not worldly philosophies. Next time we're gonna be talking about the leaders of our worship, the type of character that the people who are leading us ought to have to be considered eligible or appropriately positioned when it comes to leading out the congregation in music, in singing, certainly in prayer and teaching. This particular series is gonna finish on such a helpful and convicting note. Can't wait for you to hear that next time. For more about our ministry, go to for thegospel.org. Thanks as always for listening, for watching, for sharing, and for your support. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.