Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and on this episode, I have a dear brother and a faithful friend and a prolific author who has released a book called Consider the Lilies, Johnny Artavanus. I need to click you in here like it's uh Dr. Phil. Here you come. There he is. Johnny Artavanus.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_00I don't know how prolific I am, but I accept the exaggeration. Okay, so here's why I wanted to have you on. We are in Christmas season, and I know there's a lot of people who are hurting. They're gonna be wrestling with anxiety, hopelessness, fear, all of it. And let me just set this up sharing a little bit of my immediate context, things that I'm shepherding and our elders are and our friends here, but uh right now, in just the past uh accurately to say three weeks, and in particular, like specific age group, infant, like days old to weeks old, two in particular that I know of passing away. Uh dear brother of ours in the church, his wife swept away in a flash flood, tragically passes away. Another family I know with a sweet baby girl who's battling for life and to thrive, and then there's a host of other people. If it's not death and loss, it's conflict. Maybe they're going into an environment at Christmas that makes them nervous. Maybe it's somebody who has abused them, maybe it's sexual abuse, maybe it's physical or emotional abuse. There are so many things at Christmas that we forget, and we are in context, maybe if this is somebody who's listening, thinking right now the bins are coming down off the garage storage shelves, grandma or mama are putting out all of their decor. We're so excited. There's shopping, there's lights, and all those are good things. They're sweet gifts and sweet memories. But for a ton of people, anxiety is what Christmas has become about. What are some of the things that you're seeing pastorally? And as you even see responses from consider the lilies, why is it important for us to talk about this stuff?
SPEAKER_01You know, I would I would say, well, first of all, if I was talking and I was just past, you know, the pastor of someone that's walking through some of the difficulty that you just mentioned with the loss of a child, you know, I wouldn't initially start by proclaiming the truth. I would just initially go, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. That is so tough. You know, Job's friends were great until they opened their mouth. And so I think before I get to maybe some of the answers and the antidote to anxiety that's available in the Word of God, I think from a pastoral perspective, I would just sit with people, and that's why the Bible says we weep with those who weep. And you mentioned true loss and true mourning. And so I think it's helpful to just acknowledge I'm so sorry. And you don't start with James 1, find joy in this trial when people are in the thick of trial. You start with, um, I I don't really even I can't even fully fathom what you're going through, but I am so sorry. And and you just sit with them. Um, so I think that'd be one place to start because the Bible is full of answers, but I think also we have the God, and I'll explain this, of all comfort who comforts us in our affliction. And sometimes the way God comforts us is through other people that just sit there with us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, regarding even all the other elements of anxiety that you mentioned with the holiday season of an empty chair or kind of the the unknown, uh, it's always an invitation, you know, ever believers at all times have an invitation to trust in the character of God. And certain times anxiety is accelerated because of the season in which we find ourselves. You know, there's heightened emotion, heightened excitement, but what may be heightened excitement for one family is actually um deep despair for the next because they're looking at an empty chair, they're looking at ornaments they used to put up with maybe a daughter that's no longer there, or a rebellious child, or this is actually this ornament celebrated something that now is a shameful part of, you know, or a part of tragedy in my life, or whatever it may be. So we're always invited in this in the in the Bible to observe and meditate upon the character of God and to maybe just if you're going big idea here, people are walking through difficulty. How do maybe some of the themes in the book, my book considered the lilies, but ultimately in the scripture, how do they encourage and comfort people at times like this? And and to those types of people, I would just say, well, first of all, um, I would encourage them to be rooted in the psalms in particular. Um, my book is not largely, you know, anchored, it's largely anchored in the psalms, but and that and the reason is because 33% of the psalms are psalms of lament. There's no stoic denial of emotion in the Bible. The Bible's not full of posturing and pretend. You have raw, uncut emotion in the Psalms. You have guys like David saying, Where are you, God? And especially at times where you would think that there would be levels of triumph in the life of David, or you could say in comparison, the Christmas season, it was actually the times of the greatest despair and depression and melancholy and despondency. And so when you go to the Psalter in particular, you find the full range of both human expectation, but also human suffering, human lament, human weeping, human mourning. Uh, what's the point of this life? Where are you, God? I thought you promised to be near to me. Um, all of these different things. And so I would, even as you mentioned this, I would just express the acceptability of asking hard questions in a difficult time. You know, I think sometimes people are going, I'm feeling this in the Christmas season. I'm not really excited for Christmas this year. Um, well, that's that's a good thing for you to express, and you can tell that to God because in the in the Psalms, it's not like people are going, Hello, Majestic Father, how are you? They are at times, and it's genuine, oh Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name and all the earth. But then in other times, it just starts with David going, Every single night I make my bed swim in my own tears. That's coming from a manly man, that's coming from a guy that it was sung of him, he slain tens of thousands of people, and then he says, Man, in the nighttime I just weep and wail, and I'm a companion of jackals, is what Job says. And so uh, one, you have a companion amongst the people of God in the scriptures that have walked through true tragedy and true loss and have been comforted by the character of God. Now, in that realm of uh what do we say, how would I encourage people? Well, I think regardless of what it may be, you know, God is all of his, first of all, if you're trying to encourage someone with the attributes of God, you've heard me say before that God is all of his attributes all of the time in full measure.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01Meaning that, you know, I remember Costi and I wrote about it in one of the final chapters of my book. But I was in Australia with my friend Micah, and we got the word that his mom was dying of cancer. We came home, she died of cancer, and I remember being at the memorial service the week afterward, and someone came up and slapped him on the back and said, God's sovereign, he's gonna work this out for your good. You know, and you're like, Well, that's true to one extent. You do want to affirm the sovereignty of God, but but you never want to divorce the sovereignty of God from his fatherly hand. Totally. And you never want to divorce his rule and reign from the fact that lamentation says that he does not he does not delight in causing us to suffer, he's not capriciously just throwing darts our way. Um, he weeps with those who weep. He's a sympathetic high priest. Even when you consider John 11, Jesus weeps at the grave of Lazarus. Why? Why? I mean, you have to consider the question why would Jesus weep at the grave of Lazarus when he knew what he was about to do? It's because he's not indifferent to human suffering. He is no stranger to suffering, and so he knows what people are walking through. And so I try to provide for them the full range of the character of God. And you know, I want you to interject. I would just say, but rooting your life in God's sovereignty and God's love and God's wisdom, but also God's presence, because you mentioned that the holidays are potentially a time of profound loneliness and even great despair. You know, this this week for Thanksgiving, um, uh, you know, this I'm preaching on Psalm 23 because the holiday that you're called to celebrate, I I think the same thing. Many people in my church are going through the greatest difficulty. They could say they're going through the valley of the shadow of death. And it's interesting that in that time you know the psalm, and many people that don't know the Lord know the psalm. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. Why? Because you're with me. And so that reality of God's presence, not just in an affirmation of his omnipresence, but the subjective experience of his nearness is the only thing that can get lonely people through a holiday season when they're actually longing for someone to be near to them. Um, even if they're reflecting also on the past, you know. Yeah. They may remember, like, oh, this used to be a sweet day, and now it's no longer a sweet day. And in that regard, you know, C.S. Lewis in the Wait of Glory talks a lot about that. You know, he mourned the loss of his wife and he used to reflect on these sweet times he used to have with her, and he he he calls it, you know, nostalgia, what you think is pulling you back is actually pulling you forward to the day when you'll actually you'll meet Jesus face to face. And so in all of these things, we have to be reminded by truth, and especially at a time where we're maybe susceptible to fear, worry, anxiety, loneliness. We have to make sure our minds are steeped and saturated in the truths of scripture.
SPEAKER_00So good, so helpful. What are some uh practical ways that people can walk with people who are hurting or are filled with anxiety? Maybe not being the dear brother there. I'm sure he meant well. Of course, so many people do like, cheer up, you know, God's gonna turn this out for you. Maybe not being the uh in our own way, the back slapping, hey God's sovereign, you know, you're gonna get through it. This should, this too shall pass. You know, God's gonna get you through this, or the best is yet to come. What are some practical ways that we can meet people in their opinion besides speaking the truth, which you've said. I mean, we could point them to the Psalms, we could sit with them and say, I'm so sorry. Are there practical things you see that could just uh bring joy to a weary heart?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think for sure, uh especially as it relates to how we do this together, because faith is a community project, meaning like we we grow in our walk with the Lord as we see Christ together. That's why the church is ultimately unified because we're all fixing our eyes on the same object, which is Christ. And so as far as practical ways we do it, you know, first of all, I would say the word practical has a relativity to it when people talk about practicality. Like, what do you mean by practical? And the Bible is immensely practical, but it's not it's not three-step methods necessarily all the time. Some sometimes when the Bible wants us to walk, you know, with people, um, you know, if if I was gonna try to condense it, I guess I would say this. First of all, truth is always communicated best in the context of deep relationship and sincere love. Yeah, you know, so it could be, you know what, there's an elderly woman at our church that lost her husband that's going into a Christmas season by herself. If you're a young family, um go set up her Christmas lights and get her tree down from the attic and be with her. That's one of the most tangible ways you can evidence your love for someone is just by spending time with them. You know, I think even when you think about the holiday season and man, this isn't what I want it to be. Well, sometimes people are so forlorn because they're looking for someone else to serve them and meet their needs. And it might just be a good perspective shift to go, man, whose needs can I meet in my own church body to encourage them and maybe walking through something more difficult than my own. Because the person that's experiencing job insecurity and anxious over that over the Christmas season can take their needs off of their own needs or their eyes off of their own needs when they consider, oh, this other family just lost two children. You know, so they're everything is in is in scale. So practically going, I would serve other people. That might be look making a meal, it could be putting up Christmas tree lights, um, it could be praying for them. If it's a family with needs, you know, when I was a kid, Costi, we didn't have much. I was a pastor's kid, you know that. And I used to, my dad used to make me grab toys and give them to the missionaries. And I remember I was telling someone the other day, he would just, since I was nine years old, he was just ingraining Johnny, grab Donatello, grab the, you know, Leonardo, my favorite ninja turtles, your ninja turtles. Man, we don't get a lot for Christmas. I'm a pastor's kid. This is tough. And my dad was just every single time someone came to our that was when missionaries came home on furlough. Yeah. And he would make me give a lot, you know, or he wouldn't make me, he was just find something to give away. He's like, This is what we do. This is what we do, John. And everything you've received, or everything you have is something you've received. And these, you may think you don't have a lot, but they have less than you. And I think sometimes even that perspective that my dad ingrained in me when I was a a kid was just like a helpful thing of going, hey, what's a practical way of meeting needs or or helping other people? It's just going, where do they need to be served? How can I come alongside them? Can I make them a meal? And then you can that also functions as an appropriate catalyst to communicate the truth when it's steeped in love. And so I don't want to filibuster there, but I would say find needs, meet them, love them, communicate the truth, invite them into your home. Because sometimes people, you know, you've heard about it's appropriate to want to spend time with your family. Um but this year, like almost all years, we're gonna have people that don't have a place to go in our home on Thanksgiving and Christmas. Because I want my kids growing up going, Hey, I'm thankful to celebrate you. But this is a day about the Lord. And while I have gifts for you, I want my greatest gift I can give to you is you growing up thinking that the world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around serving the people of God. And that's how I want my three-year-old to grow up.
SPEAKER_00So good, so good. That I think that's incredibly helpful and and practical in the sense that you're giving specifics. I know everyone's context will be different, but there are people that don't think about the stuff you just said, and so it's important to be serving. Okay, I have two more kind of categorical questions. This one is gonna take us in a unique direction, but helpful. Uh, what are some of the ways in which we increase anxiety ourselves and we are our own worst enemy? That's why I said unique, because it's probably not exactly what people want to hear. But uh is materialism kind of shopaholicness, um, even expectations like Christmas has to be this. You just actually said something that is a particular thing that steps on our toes when you said, Hey, Christmas, we definitely want to be with our families, but I want to raise my children and forge my home to think this is not about us. That is not normal. The normal Christmas view is my family, my memories, my little fort or my little empire, our time together, and we become very vigilant about keeping people out because we just need our Christmas. In that, what are some of the ways that you see people increase their anxiety by being their own worst enemy? Are there particular things that you're on guard for in your own heart or I should be on guard for in my own heart?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I think the recipes for anxiety are always the same. You know, if you're and I mentioned this in my book, Consider the Lilies, but when Jesus gives the prohibition, do not be anxious, it comes on the heels of him as the great physician. I would say asking three questions. He says, Therefore, don't be anxious. So you have to always look at the preceding verses to ask the question, what's the therefore, therefore? You know, therefore, therefore, yep. Jesus says in Matthew 6, 19, do not lay for yourself treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break it and steal. Um, and then he's six verses later again to get to the topic of anxiety, but this is his on-ramp. His introduction to his sermon on anxiety begins with detailing to us that what we treasure grabs our heart, and whatever grabs our heart makes us anxious. And Jesus is, you know, he's not opposed to possessions, but Jesus says that when you make and take a good thing and make it an ultimate thing, that thing becomes a treasure, and whatever you treasure can become uh an anxiety in your life. That could be a relationship, it could be a toy, it could be the Christmas present you want, it could be the relationship you want in the sense of like, here's another uh year where I'm gonna spend the holidays single. You know, is wanting a spouse bad? No, not at all. But when you idolize the idea of a spouse, that's when you take a good thing, you make it an ultimate thing, and then you idolize that thing, and you can become sinfully worried or anxious about that. And so, yeah, what we treasure um is a recipe for anxiety. And it's not just the people that have a lot that Jesus is speaking to, he's also speaking to the have nots because it's not necessarily what we have, it's our attitude towards our possessions, uh, because we don't have to have a lot of money in the bank and we could desire to have that. Uh, I want that and become consumed with materialism, as he said. So Jesus asks the great, you know, as the great physician, he's gonna ask the question, what or who do you treasure? Because that's not a matter of isolation as it relates to the anxiety in our mind. The next question he asks is two verses later, he says, the eye is the lamp of the body. So if your eye is full of darkness, your whole body will be. Um, meaning that what we look at with our eyes is not a matter of isolation as it relates to the anxiety in our mind. The average person on a, you know, just a day-to-day basis spends seven and a half hours a day looking at a screen scrolling. But especially during the holiday season, much of what they're scrolling is one, potentially materialism, it's consumerism, it's I want, I need, and it could be covetousness and envy because what people present on a social media platform is the postured version of their life. It's the perfect table, it's the perfect dinner, it's the perfect laughter, the candid photo. And people begin to reflect on their own life. And I think sometimes, you know, the eye being the lamp of the body, um, just meaning you are the overflow of what you consume through the vehicle of your eyes. That's what Jesus says. So if you're anxious, uh, he just says, What are you looking at? Because even if it's not explicitly sinful, like it's not pornographic, it's not wicked, it could be morally neutral, but uh keep you from taking every thought captive that you would honor Christ. Yeah. Because often the holidays are consumed more with products and other people rather than the person of Jesus Christ. Then the other thing I would just say Jesus has a third question right before he provides the prohibition. He talks about serving two masters, no one can do it. So he just says, Who or what is your master? You know, obviously we live in a free country, so people would say, I have no master at all. Um, but Jesus uh articulates the reality in the rest of Scripture and his worth that you could be mastered by a host of other things, you could be mastered by bitterness. And so that is a root that defiles you, it says in Hebrews 12. So mastered by bitterness. So as you approach a holiday season where you're confronted with the people that you avoid um 364 other days of the year, and then you have to rub shoulders with them at you know, a Thanksgiving dinner. Um the Bible says that's not just uh damaging, it destroys you. Yeah. And when you ask about how can we become our own worst enemy, well, some people feel vindicated in their bitterness and uh almost want to pour fuel on the fire and uh you know, not forgive people. And uh the Bible says that's actually really damaging to your soul. And so I would say those those main areas we treasure possessions, we can become materialistic, uh, we can become envious or covetous, and we could also be bitter, we could be mastered by other things. There's also other ingredients to mention, but at least Jesus bids us to ask those three questions. Who or what do you treasure? What are you looking at? And then three, who or what is your master?
SPEAKER_00That brings a lot of balance for people, and that was my goal in asking it for you or of you for people so that they can be thinking through those questions, just asking and to double check. It doesn't mean we need to go kind of bah umbug on everything Christmas and oh, it's just a bunch of materialism, and oh, it's a and Jesus is the reason for the season, amen. And that's why we do episodes like this, and we're you're preaching about it, I'm preaching about it, we're going to, but it's important for us to ask those questions. Okay, last one. If you had to give us one particular passage, and I want you to think about this because I bet there's a whole bunch of people that will take you at your word and go do it. The Christmas season, what passage or section of scripture, if somebody asked you, where would you encourage me to spend the next 30 days? Let this wash over my soul, bring perspective, help me remember what the purpose of life and the Lord coming is. Is there a particular section or topic or theme? And you can't say to buy your book, consider the lilies, because we're all already buying it and reading it, Johnny. It's under everyone's tree. Um what section of the Bible would you say, hey, your morning or evening with your coffee or your tea, just let these words and this section wash over your soul?
SPEAKER_01How how if maybe I would answer I have to ask a qualifying question how many minutes are they reading? Because I mean I'm thinking, you know, how many minutes are they reading a day?
SPEAKER_00If you had 16, if you had like 15 to 30, maybe if you were if this was the person that's like, hey, 6 30 to 7, I get my quiet time, or evening reading, they're in their bed by lamplight, it's been a crazy day. The rush of life, the schedule, the work party, the church event, the recital, the nutcracker. If you said, hey, let's just take 15 minutes, 20 minutes before bed, spend time with the Lord, and this will keep this will be an anchor for you in the middle of what's a fun but frenzyful season. What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_01I don't think my answer is very good. Um, but I think what I would say is that part of the reason I ask about the minutes is uh statistically you can read a chapter every five minutes, every five minutes. So you're going, if you got 15 minutes, you got three chapters a day. Um the Gospel of John is 21 chapters, you can read it then in seven days if you're doing fifteen minutes a day. And if you got thirty days, that means you can read the Gospel of John four times over the next thirty days. And so when I'm thinking through it, I go, you know, I think it's awesome to contemplate Jesus' birth. My favorite passage to preach or period, I think, is Luke 24, The Road to Emmaus.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01That it's following the resurrection, Jesus shows up along these other two guys and says, Why are you despairing? They don't know it's Jesus. And they say, Don't you know? We thought this guy was the king, he came and we thought it was the Messiah and he's dead, and it's been three days, and they're despairing. And he begins to talk to them, and it says, beginning with Moses in all the scriptures, he began to explain to them all the things concerning himself, meaning that Jesus is just, I want if I could go to any place in the Bible, for sure it's this conversation. And Jesus begins to explain to these two guys okay, and he's they still don't know it's him, that all of the Old Testament points to the person and work of Jesus Christ, including his death, not just his his his birth and life. And then it says they encourage him to stay the meal, you know, or stay for the meal, and it says that then he opens their eyes and he uh disappears from their presence. He like just yeah, he vanishes. And it says something following that passage in Luke 24 weren't our hearts burning. Not when we found out it was Jesus, weren't our hearts burning while he was explaining the scripture to us. Yeah. Meaning that what causes someone's heart to burn with fire and with passion is an understanding of the scriptures and who God is and what he came to do in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And if you want your heart to burn, if you want to be on fire for the Lord, you need to have a comprehensive understanding of his life, uh, his birth, life, death, ministry, ascension, and his plan for you. And I think my favorite gospel that encapsulates that truth is the gospel of John. It doesn't even go into detail that much on his birth. And I'm assuming you're gonna get that from other church contexts this holiday season. People are gonna preach the Christmas story. But I never, as a church personally, I never want to divorce the Christmas story of his arrival from the fact, yeah, again, Jesus didn't drop down on a Friday, die, and then go back on Sunday. He was born and then he lived the perfect life, and then he died the death we could never die. And in John's gospel, 50% of John's gospel is on the last week of Jesus' life. And so if you're looking for the full range of the life and ministry of Jesus, I'm assuming you're gonna hear the holiday, you know, about how he was born. But what John does is he tethers so much of what happens in the life of Jesus to uh the Old Testament. And we know the story about Mary in the end, but one of the things that I think we forget is in the beginning was the word, and the word is with God, and the word was God. He he was in the beginning with with God. All things came into being through him, and nothing has been made apart from him. Meaning that Jesus, yes, he was born two thousand years ago, but that is not when he began. He's the pre-incarnate creator of the universe. And if you have children growing up in your home, I want to I want them to understand with great levels of crystal clarity. Yeah, Jesus did, he was incarnate, right? He became he took on flesh. But your understanding of Jesus, if you want it to be precious as Christmas, you need to understand that before he ever took on flesh, he said, Let there be light. And the wonder of Christmas is in direct proportion to your understanding of even that opening chapter of John, John 1 3. Um the Gospel of John introduces Jesus as the creator of the world before you can ever understand him as the savior of the world. And I think a lot of people talk about how he was born to save us, born to save us. But the wonder of that is um who he was before time began. And John does that in such a great, understandable way. And if I have twenty fifteen minutes, I'm reading three chapters a day. Um, that takes me a week. I've got four times to read through John's gospel until Christmas Day.
SPEAKER_00I love it. Great advice, and not surprising because you have been preaching the gospel. It's blowing out of your heart. Very biased. I'm like Matthew, Johnny, come on, Matthew, Matthew. Yeah, which would also be great. Yes, yes. Um, well, hey man, thank you for the wisdom, the insight, the encouragement. Thanks for putting in the work to write the book. I was so grateful. Thank you, man. I saw that you were doing that. Was glad to endorse it, read it. I know a bunch of folks at our church and who follow for the gospel love you and are use of the resource and are no stranger to you. So keep up the good work and write another one eventually. Come on.
SPEAKER_01I uh yeah, it's gonna be called uh the art of the deal. Um how to get Chipotle to give you two scoops of steak or something like that.
SPEAKER_00They're they're dipping me now, so um good ideas. You know that uh Chipotle is getting raked over the coals for they're still using seed oils. I mean, they're they're Make America Healthy Again is having a day with Chipotle right now.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's a disaster. I uh yeah, I could get it. This is the next episode I'd like to get on with you. Is what have they done to Chipotle? Why did they skimp us so bad now? So lots more to discuss. Greetings to you and the Shepherd's House family. Thank you for having me on, Grateful.
SPEAKER_00So good. Hey, just stick with me here while I close this out. You could be a fly on the wall. Well, thanks for saying Johnny, Johnny. I need to close it out. I need to close it out. All right, everyone. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching, thanks for supporting. Uh Grateful. If you haven't already, go pick up a copy of Consider the Lilies by Johnny Artavanis and look for his next book on uh Chipotle as well. I will be back starting a Christmas series next week with another episode. We love you if we're grateful for you. Keep on living for the gospel.