Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and I want to welcome our listeners on Apple and Spotify, and those of you watching this on our YouTube video podcast format. On this episode, it is part four of this series we've been in on worship with sovereign grace music. I'm so grateful for Bob Coughlin, Devin Coughlin, and David Zimmer and the wisdom they've poured out. I am sure so many of you have been encouraged. I have as well, even just getting to sit down, ask them questions, and listen. My goal in this series is that it shapes ourselves as individual worshipers, but also our churches. It's so important that our churches are biblical and balanced and that our worship reflects what scripture models and teaches. On this episode now, part four, the leaders of our worship. Leadership is so important when it comes to worship. Who should be on stage? What should the character be of people who lead? If you play if you play guitar and you're not a believer, you know, does it matter if you're talented? We just need you to play the sound, or does it? There is a culture today in the worship scene that I would describe as a mercenary culture. You hire guns to play the lights out. Because they're talented, you don't know their spiritual condition, you don't know if they're even a church member somewhere, let alone they can be an atheist or just of another faith. There are so many stories of people who lead worship or are on music teams, who are living a homosexual lifestyle, who are living in total sin, but because they're talented, it's like, well, let's just do this for a little while and then you know, but we won't make them like a worship pastor or make anything formal. We'll just have them be a part or pay them as a contractor. This culture is pervasive, and it's doing damage in our churches. People don't even know who's on stage and how they're living. Is anyone perfect? No. But should people be allowed to continue to be an example of worship unto God just because they're talented, if they're living in sin? No. We should treat them like we would any other individual. If they're not saved, we call them to believe the gospel. We're not gonna put them on a stage. Or if they are a part of the church and they're in sin, we're gonna pull them from that position, we're gonna call them to repentance, walk them through restoration within the body, and go forward from there. But no one just gets a free passage because leaders are supposed to be an example, not an example of perfection, but an example of a pattern worshiping the Lord and being character qualified in the midst of having great musical or singing abilities. Bob, Devin, and David take us into this topic. Let's jump in with them. David, Bob, Devin, great to have you guys. Coste. Good to be together. Thankful for you. I want to talk to you guys about leaders of our worship. We've talked about expression, we've talked about theology, we've talked about style and now leadership, the character of those whom lead the worship service as exemplary leaders. Who should be, when we use the word worship leader, who should be on a stage, who should be leading our worship, who should be providing the example to people in our churches when it comes to worship?
SPEAKER_01Before we even get to that who, uh, we've got to start with Jesus. Let's go. And Jesus is the means of access for us to God. No one, no one ushers us into God's presence other than Jesus Christ. Um, and so we come in him and through him and by him and to him. Uh, he's the subject of our worship, he's the object of our worship, he's the means of our worship. Um and I think functionally we forget that. And so I want to start there before we get to the the who can do this. Yeah, it's we only come in Jesus Christ. Amen. Um, only in him and by him. Uh, and uh that's an incredible gift, something we m should never take for granted. It's vital. Good. Keep going.
SPEAKER_00By any I mean, by any other means, we're then relying on our own personality, our own strengths, our own gifts, our own eloquence, our own all those things. But that com that like lowest common denominator, only through Christ and to Christ, should relieve pressure off of everyone, the pastor, the guy who's leading the songs, the musicians, the you know, and and it should also um it should also shape how all of those people think about their roles on Sundays.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think part of the converse uh conversation that we've been having, Costi, is just like, well, who who participates in this? Like who is participating in the music? Are those hired guns, are those church members, are those but just Devin just you know, at the foot of the cross, like that that that's where we all start. Yeah. Um and so yeah, I just we have to begin there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm not s the question could might be helped with like specific. That was a terrible question. He's gonna tell you better. I repent. I repent. I need the gospel. Well, in people's minds, again, we have been affected so much by the rock concert culture. Yeah. So that when you you have the worship leader who really is Jesus, and then humanly speaking, it's the pastor, the pastors of the of the church. They are leading the church in making much of Christ because of the gospel and the power of the Spirit, governed by his word. That they're the ones who are leading people to give glory to God. And then you've got musicians, and that's what we all think of when we think of worship leader. Yeah. But that's what we want to talk about. So the tendency is to have one person up there who's a really good musician.
SPEAKER_01And that's just or or probably better, uh, a charismatic presence.
SPEAKER_03A charismatic presence, yeah, that's right. They don't have to be a musician necessarily, but good looking is helpful. And um, if they are popular, yeah, so we obviously digging, though. We can put the camera on one of the other dudes who has more hair, like David. But we want Devin's down. We we just developed these categories for the person leading the singing that that you don't see in scripture. You know, uh uh Chronicles says Ken and I led the singing because he was skillful at it, because he understood it. Okay, great. You want someone who's skillful and who understands music, great, but um, that just is not an automatic transfer to the New Testament church. Uh the New Testament doesn't say a lot about who leads our singing. The emphasis is on pastoral leadership of the church and then the congregation singing.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03That's what the emphasis is. You just you just don't see it.
SPEAKER_01You know, you can't and what you're highlighting is we f we make a distinction oftentimes between what's going on up front and what's going on in the congregation. Yes, yes, yes. And the New Testament doesn't have a category for that. It's we are all participating in Christ, coming in Christ, worshiping together. And so I'm one thing I'll talk to our musicians about is like it's what the the thing is not what's going on up here, the thing is what we're doing together. And so we're just this is just the part that we're playing in that as we support this bigger thing that's going on.
SPEAKER_04This whole topic requires that redefinition. I think that's where while my question was wrong, I believe it was spirit-led on the presence of it. It was well intentioned. Because it was well, the road to heresy is. I think it was what that means for clarity. Yes, and that's what I that's isn't that indicative of I'm 39, so millennial, I'm in this generation. Like, who should be leading our worship? And you're going, like, can we back up the train real quick? Define worship leader. What are we talking about? Music? Pastors, yeah, elders, the congregation is there to do what? That is a sign of the times. Is we've grown up in this era where the guy who's either good looking or he dresses trendy or he sounds good, or she, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. It's like put them up there, and that is so what do you do here? And you're like, I'm the worship leader. Yeah. And why? Well, because you know, I'm the best at music, or I'm good at leading the production, or I'm a galvanizer. Yeah, and I have a charismatic. And I can rally all these troops to make the worship, and we even separate worship. Yeah. Like we're gonna, you know, we call it with the best of intentions. You know, come out this Sunday for worship and the word. Yeah, we're like separating worship, is the music. We're gonna get you warmed up and ready. You're the primer for the sermon and the preacher. Worship and the word, these distinctions versus all of that is the worship. So what you're touching on is key, and it is a sign of the times.
SPEAKER_00Well, and the uh sorry. The worship leader bar is so stinking low. It's like Tell me how you really feel. It's just like, hey, have a good voice, you know. It's uh uh pick some songs. It's just yeah, I think it's it's a total lack of awareness of what's happening corporately. Wow. I think how Dev said it just yeah, nails it on the head. It's it's there is in scripture there is no stage.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00There is no platform. There is no um, you know, it's the one-another's that are happening.
SPEAKER_03So we have these two scriptures. Uh 1 Thessalonians 5, 12. We asked you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you to esteem them very highly and love because of their work. The elders, God gave the pastors to the church for something. They are laboring among you, they're over you in the Lord, they're admonishing you, they are they are working to conform you to the image of Christ. And then you have 1 Peter 5, I exhort the elders among you as a fellow elder and witness to the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that's going to be revealed. Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight. What oversight? Well, we got that in two places over you in the Lord, oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you, not for shameful game, but eagerly, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. So pastors have been given a charge before God to lead congregations. So when we so when we separate this musical part, make it distinct from that, we're creating a whole new category. And that's the worship leader category. So it can be a guy, it can be a girl, it can be it can be anybody. Whereas it seems that if you're going to have someone leading people in this activity of singing, when the word of Christ is to dwell in people richly, they're teaching and admonishing one another, where you will have someone potentially, and this doesn't happen in all churches, potentially giving you know excerptative words, phrases, or or explanations. That should be a pastor or someone of a pastoral quality. That there should be a leader up there who's able to do those kinds of things. Now, when you when you follow the world's example model, you don't need that. It's just about getting people hyped up on the songs and getting people engaged and inspired. And um so just bottom line, I think we need to think carefully about who's leading that section of the meeting, that portion when when the congregation's singing, it's it's really a pastoral job, pastoral role. And you might not have a pastor specifically, but someone has pastoral qualifications, which gets into your question.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and it's a it's a pastoral responsibility. So you might be a pastor watching or listening, and and you're thinking, I'm not musical at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and as a pastor, and speaking as a pastor, I'll say this it's it's your responsibility to to shepherd the flock in that context. Yeah, and so oftentimes um, you know, I've interact with pastors, and it's their you talk about how how is the Sunday planned? And it's like, I mean, well, I'm responsible for preaching, and then I've got Jimmy over here who basically plans the first half and he chooses the songs, and he'll send them to me, and I'll give him the thumbs up or say, hey, do this instead. And it's like that. I think I think as pastors, we should be more invested and more involved in the words that we're putting in our people's mouths. Yeah, we're aware of what's going on.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so who so getting back to your question of like who's leading it? So you're asking, who who are the these musicians? Who should they be?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like can anyone who's talented and say, like, hey, I go to this church and I play, or I'm I they first two weeks, three weeks at the church, and this happens, and I again I'm not shaming anyone. I it's beautiful. I people will come up to our church, they're kind of newer, and they're they're come right up to me after. I'm usually just standing there. Uh, we're a church plant, so I don't have like a real fancy green room, it's a weird dingy locker room. Someday, somebody might be aspiring to that. I'll take a prayer room for the elders, like where we could pray before and then go touch our breath. But overall, uh, no green rooms and no green MMs only and all that stuff. I said Fiji water. Overall, though, I'm standing there. Somebody will walk up, inevitably. Hey, you know, I want to meet you. We've been here a couple weeks, and you know, hey, how do I get on the worship team? And I always tell them the same thing. I said, well, first of all, like everybody up there isn't up there because they're uh talent or they're playing musician, or they play music and they're musicians. Uh, first thing I'd say is, you know, why don't you come to the church for a little while? Keep gathering, get to know folks, let us get to know you. Second, I would register for our membership class. It's not like a next steps. Here's the track to get where you want. We want to know you, we want to love you. We actually believe in church membership, and so I want to meet you there. I lead that class. And third, you'd have to interview with our team. We want to, we want to get to know your testimony and all that because everybody up there is somebody who you could say is not a perfect Christian and not all like the drummer's not a pastor, but all of them have to be men and women of character. Yes, that's what matters most. So you may be great at violin. I want to know about your character. Yeah, are we doing it right? Is that at the at least a step in the right direction? Um, I guess, yeah, I'm asking for your thoughts and your your methodological opinion.
SPEAKER_03I I mean that sounds like what we do almost to a T. We we say something very similar. First, we thank them for wanting to be a part. You're always encouraging them, just saying, wow, you want to be a part of what the church is doing. That's so great. We we value you more than your gift. Yes. And so does God. Amen. He he doesn't just want people, he doesn't need people to do stuff for him. He he wants us. Jesus came to buy people with his blood, to purchase them with his blood. And so we want to get to know you, we want you to get to know us. We want, we see this as a body, and as people become connected to the body, they figure out what they're supposed to do. So let's take some time for that. So that's that sounds exactly like what we're seeking to do. And then when you as you get to that place, you're a member, or you know, we say pursuing membership or a member, you but you're here because of the church.
SPEAKER_02That's okay, that's great.
SPEAKER_03And uh you're then you then we listen to you, and someone says, either, yeah, that's great, or I think you might you know need to grow in this, or yeah, maybe there are other gifts you have, and and that's when you determine, or that's when you see whether person's there for to use their gifts or because they want to be a part of the church.
SPEAKER_04That's such a great heart test. Because isn't is it fair to say and accurate to say that playing the drums or being exceptionally talented at guitar isn't a spiritual gift, but the spiritual gift is service. Yes, yes. I want to serve. So the person who is like, you know, serving in the uh at the entryway that day and welcoming people into church, you know, is their spiritual gift greeting? Yeah, or is it, hey, I'm happy to serve? Is the guy driving the trailer at our church? Like that's his spiritual grift is his spiritual gift is hooking up a trailer, and the rest of us are like, where does this go? And so there seems to be that heart test.
SPEAKER_03That's a great distinction, Cassi. I think you call it a skill. Musicianship, it's a skill. It can be used to serve or not to serve. It can be used to serve different purposes. I can use it to serve God's purposes, I can use it to serve my purposes. So it is, it gets to that heart motivation. But that's a skill. We want skilled people up there. But I'd rather have someone up there with a gift of serving who's not as skilled than someone who doesn't have the gift of serving but is very skilled. Or someone with high talent, low character.
SPEAKER_04That's yes, that's the same thing. Let's talk a little bit about skill and the response to people's response to skill. Uh you play. Well, I'll just use very, very blunt vernacular. You play the lights out. I know Bob's gonna cringe. Uh love that I try to do that.
SPEAKER_03Devin will rebuke me.
SPEAKER_04You play the lights out on a Sunday, you know. What a set. We'll call it a set, not even songs. And people come up, they're like, Oh, you guys just you rock. Uh I love your albums, I love your YouTube videos, and I love your worship. I love your worship. Yeah, I mean, that's that's it. Like, oh, I just I love your worship, like that's it. And so, or that was sort of like how a woman may, I love your worship, and then she's like, Yeah, I love your worship, you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Whoever it is. How do you handle compliments as a music leader, spiritual leaders? People love sound. Yeah, people, they there's there's a vibe to use that word. Sorry if that's offensive. Uh, they love it and they they they get excited and they want to tell you how awesome you are. Well, how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_03That's assuming people have come up to us and said this. You're assuming a lot.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I like knowing God, I like the album. You know, our staff, we sent them a photo of us being here today and like pray for the day to be edifying and for the content to be rich in edification for people. And, you know, some of our staff sent back heart-face emojis. You know, they're in other words, we love sovereign grace music, we love your faithfulness, we love the stuff you provide, and then we don't we love you, but ultimately we love what you're providing because we want to sing and we want to worship. What do you do though with the compliments? How do yeah?
SPEAKER_03I usually ask them if they have something they want me to sign. Sign my Bible.
SPEAKER_04I'm ready for a selfie. Do you have a selfie backdrop in front of the can we come over here? Yeah, right here. The backdrop.
SPEAKER_00No, it's just a cardboard cutout of Bob, and so he can go to the greenhouse.
SPEAKER_04Is Bob here? Is Bob here? Where is Bob? Sorry.
SPEAKER_03I would say it definitely been a musician, you know, professional music musician since 76. So that's 48 years, I guess. Um it does, it begins in the heart. Uh you have to work on your heart first. So good. There's not just a pat phrase. Now you there are phrases that you can say that I think are helpful. But you have really got to believe that any fruit from what you have done is uh completely the grace of God and for his glory. If you don't believe that, you're gonna struggle. You're gonna wanna, you we're gonna be a little It won't be enough. You want a little bit of that glory to stick to you. But if you see some of the things we've been talking about being jars of clay, um, and the 1 Corinthians 1, where uh it it talks about Christ has become wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification, redemption, so that as it is written, let the one who boasts boast in the Lord. Like if you we don't believe that really, we're gonna be thinking, Oh, I thought it was good too. You know, thank you. And you know the battle. Yeah, yeah, trying to. So if if that's you know, that's your aim, it'll be a lot easier, and you'll be able to respond with things like, oh, thanks so much. I'm so glad it was, I'm so glad it was helpful, you know. Or we have a glorious savior, don't we? That's that's where I usually go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, turn the attention away from self. Yeah. I was so affected by how unwavering the hope we have is.
SPEAKER_03Yes, the truth that we just sang. And it's not like, oh gosh, I don't want I don't want to receive anything. It's just saying what's true.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03You're not making stuff up. If you do grab the glory, if you do try to take it, God's gonna pose you. Oh, yeah. You know, that's that's and and you're gonna be training people the wrong things, they're gonna be looking to you. And it's like, no, this is all about what Jesus has done and who he is. And praise God that he used something I did to to serve you. And and then I'll start asking just questions about themselves. Yeah. Where'd you come from? How'd you get here? You know, so it's not landing on, yeah, that was good. What what part did you like the most? Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01What did I do that most affected you? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think. I think we're all serving on teams on Sunday too. So I think you're outdoing one another and showing honor. Oh, that's good. I think there's a it's a wonderful way to highlight the fact that this is a team. We're together and you know, and we're all working together. I think I think for for someone who's consistently serving maybe on a on a music team on Sundays, it's also like how are you trying to find opportunities to outdo one another in showing honor? How are you encouraging those who are greeting or encouraging those who are watching your kids? Or if you have that heart posture, uh receiving praise or thanks or whatever doesn't seem like it has to stick. It's like it can kind of bounce off of you and either go to the Lord or go to what we're all doing corporately.
SPEAKER_03Yes. There's so many reasons why the what we did was effective. And none of them have to do with us, really. So so it so I'll sometimes someone encourage me, and I'll just I'll just be like in awe, amazed that the Lord used me to do something. I know who I am.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And these guys know we I mean, we try to live a pretty in-the-light, honest, transparent, yeah, you know, life together, and as we should on our teams as well. Yeah. Hey, we're a bunch of losers, and God uses us. Yeah, it's amazing. And and when someone comes up and says, you know, I really enjoyed your worship, I I have a I have a temptation to say, I enjoyed your worship too. You know, but I don't. I say, you know, whatever, thank you. You know, they'll never recover. Boblin. Bob Coughlin passive aggressively rebuked me. No, but it is it's amazement at grace and encouragement. I can imagine New Heavens and New Earth, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03We're encouraging one another. And it's it's freely given. No one's comparing themselves to each other. Oh, I wish I got that compliment. Oh, oh, why did they say that? Why did they say about me? Anything don't they remember the part that I played? Anything that anyone says to us is going to cause our heart to well up in praise for the mercy that God has shown us. We'll just be in awe.
SPEAKER_04You brought up that the Lord will oppose He does the proud. How do you cultivate the heart so that you guard against pride? I mean, there is the there is the deflection of compliments, there's the highlighting of the team, the other's focused mentality. Uh, but on a personal level, privately, yes, is there an element of private devotion and cultivation that precedes the public execution of those things externally? Because everybody can look almost holier than now, like, oh, it's all the Lord, it's all the Lord. But inside you're like, oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, more and more, please. Oh, the humble servant. It's the gossip shucks willakers, like, oh, yeah, how did this even happen? You know, I don't know, just a bunch of. And underneath, you're like, you literally did this, this, this, this, and this, and you know exactly what you're doing. How do you cultivate personal humility with the Lord?
SPEAKER_00Who wants to go first? Bob, you've modeled that. I'm the least. You have modeled it well.
SPEAKER_01I uh just along those lines before we jump to that answer, is I think we've got to be on guard against uh pride masquerading as humility, which is what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Um and one way pride masquerading is humility, humility masquerading.
SPEAKER_01No, pride that m masquerades is humility, and so it's the or you use I think some people that might be listening or watching, yes, use those times of encouragement. So somebody well-intentioned, thank you, thank you so much for your worship as an opportunity to self-righteously now teach this person. And let me be the Holy Spirit in your life. Shame on you for sharing that, and let me tell you why your understanding of worship is deficient. Yeah, yeah. And uh recognizing notes. The spirit of God is at work in these people's hearts. And and we trust the spirit to work. And so humility oftentimes is just I mean, maybe it's just responding and saying, Oh, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, could it even be telling the person, you know, thank you for sharing that? Uh you know, it's interesting you said those words specifically. One of our prayers has been. Yes. And how do you think the I was thinking as you were talking, I was going, how do you how do I think the Lord feels when I beg the Spirit to move in power through preaching and declare and recognize privately our weakness before leading music and before anything, and then you ask him to bear fruit, and you ask the Lord to draw hearts and to save, and then they come up and say stuff, and you're like, Oh, yeah, you know, it's you know, we it is pretty incredible here. And I think of the I'm like the the definition of grieving the Spirit of God who is present and dwelling, filling, and working in power, and then in that moment I think of God not sharing his glory with another. Like he'll have none of that, and the pretentious arrogance of so that's humbling. That's an element of kind of humbling truth you've stated, makes me rethink and go, Am I even giving God credit for the answered prayers? Now he's all he's doing is just showing me look, I answered your prayer, it's for my glory, it's my fruit, they're my child, and then all we do is then deflect the glory back to him, but also encouraging the person. So maybe they go pray all the more. Yes, expecting God to move. Yeah, you're bringing a lot of thoughts to mind. Yes.
SPEAKER_01The uh how to cultivate humble heart. I mean, we've we've talked about the importance of the gospel, centrality of the gospel, and we need to be at the foot of the cross. I think um uh an area that we can neglect sometimes is the radical change in identity that takes place through the gospel. Um, and that produces humility. I mean, I Galatians 2.20 is just, I mean, I I that vo verse is ringing in my ears every day. Yeah, I've been crucified with Christ. Uh, like I have been laid in the grave. And so why do I spend my time trying to rob the glory of God for myself when it's not even me who lives? I mean, that what the gospel tells them tells me about me is that I deserve condemnation, the wrath of God, and that that wrath and condemnation has been placed on Jesus Christ on my behalf. I mean, that's that's what I got. That's what I bring to the table. Um, and so all that's Christ now becomes mine, and that's the goodness and joy and hope that I get to live in. What a privilege. What a privilege. And so, how I mean, how we should be the most humble, joyful, hope-filled people living in light of that reality when we know who we really are uh without Christ and who we are now in Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that coming to the foot of the cross, uh, preach the gospel to yourself, uh, meditate on what Christ accomplished for you at the cross is is, I think, the most important thing. There's just nothing more humbling. Uh Alfred Poyer wrote a uh article years ago called The Cross in Criticism, where he says, No one can say anything worse about you than what the cross has said. So meaning, you know, people say uh people say, if you were the only person in the world, Christ would have died for you. That's how much he loves you. True. But before that, you have to say, if you were the only person in the world, your sins alone would have been enough to require the death of the second person in the Trinity as a human to pay for. That's just humbling. And the fact that Jesus lived 33 years of a perfect obedience, never giving into temptation for a millisecond, so that he could bear the punishment of the hundreds of thousands of times that I have given into temptation that he's the son of God. It's just humbling. I was I was in a conference recently and talking to someone, and this the thought came to me, you can give Jesus nothing. And he has given you everything. And it was just one of those moments I felt like the Lord pressing this upon. You need this, you need this. So I think that's what sitting at the foot of the cross does, meditating on why Jesus came, who he came for, who I am.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but then practically, oh, there are so many things I want to say. There's some scriptures. Paul said, Philippians 1.20, as it is my eager expectation and hope, as he's sitting in prison, as it is my eager expectation and hope, that I will not be at all ashamed, but that now with full courage, as always, Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. Who am I seeking to honor?
unknownThe Lord.
SPEAKER_03Well, most of the time it's myself. But that's who I want. Most of the times I'm thinking, what do they think about me? Well, how do I look? Why did you say that about me? I couldn't be wrong. I mean, I see it constantly. Paul said, I just want to see Christ honored in my body. So I some of the things I found helpful are confessing sin as fast as you can. That's good. And not waiting for it to be found out. And confessing things that people don't see. Let my boast in your weakness, not in your strength. When someone comes up to encourage you, let them see, hey, I am just so ordinary. I am so normal. I confess sins that people wouldn't be aware of. I mean, don't with with judiciousness. Of course. But let people see your humanity, your weakness, your inadequacy, your inabilities, your limitations. Let them see them so that it'll be clear. Oh, you're the jar of clay. I got it. You're the jar of clay. And the all-surpassing power is from God. It's not you. And that, you know, there's something in this that goes, oh, just a little bit isn't it? So that's helpful. And then to encourage, serve, and be grateful. Good. Come into a group of people. Who can you encourage? Who can you serve? Who you can be grateful for? And express that gratefulness. You give yourself to those things, which God says to, you know, we're to be thankful in all circumstances, in all things. You give yourselves to all things, you to those things, you won't have as much time to be proud. You know, Tim Keller, I think others have said, um, humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's thinking about yourself less. And the way you do that is just by thinking of others. What about David? Can I encourage? What about Cassie? Can I be thankful for? How can I serve Devin? You'd be giving yourself to those things, you're not even going to notice that that lion that's roaring for me, me, me. It's it's you're not feeding it, so it's just not going to be heard as well.
SPEAKER_01And we're we're in this culture that's so steeped in platforming of ourselves. Uh and I th I mean I do we I want to be blunt about it. Uh social media feeds our pride. Yeah. Um, and we might think that, oh, we're being humble and I'm just being real and my authentic self and putting myself out there. Um, but it's a lie, and uh it's a danger and something that we've got to be on guard against. And if it means quitting social media, quit social media. Um, stop platforming yourself, uh, be present where God's put you. I love what your emphasis on on confession of sin and living life in Christian community. Um, I also think that can be expressed in being present where you are. I mean, just know your neighbors. Yes. Um, and I love, I mean, for me, it's it's like I'm very committed to the place that God's called me. And my neighbors don't care that I'm recording a podcast or that I'm on recordings singing songs. They don't care at all. It means nothing to them. Um, and but I need that humility because otherwise, I if I live my life on digital platforms, I'll start thinking like I am something. Yes, yes. And like, oh yeah. I mean, look how many followers I have. Or I mean whatever it is, you start going down these paths, and it just feeds this self-centered pride uh that is anti-God, that rejects God, that wants to be God.
SPEAKER_04After listening or watching these four episodes, I'm sure you can imagine why I've been so passionate about this topic and so excited for you to get these resources. What a blessing! What great biblical and also balanced wisdom from these dear brothers. I do want to say again special thanks to Sovereign Grace Music for letting us come over there and hang out at their studio. But most of all, thanks for their faithfulness. Bob Coughlin, Devin Coughlin, David Simmer, the rest of the crew. What a tremendous blessing they are to the body of Christ. Let's continue to support them, use the resources, and allow biblical teaching on the topic of worship. Not the philosophies of men, not the stylistic innovations of culture, but the Bible inform the way that we worship in our gatherings. I hope that all of this is a blessing to you ongoing. Be sure to share this maybe with your pastor, or if you are a pastor with your music team, or if you're a church member, let this shape the way you see the topic of worship. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching, thanks for supporting and for praying. If you want to know more about our ministry, go to forthegospel.org. You can get free resources there. You can check out our store, you can check out our team, or if you want to become a monthly gospel patron and support the work we're doing, you can do that on the giving page. I'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.