Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast, where we provide sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn, and I have a really exciting surprise for all of you today. As part of our series on eschatology, which, as a reminder, is the study of the end times, I sat down with my friend, my brother, and fellow Arizona pastor, Jeff Durbin, not to debate but to discuss eschatology in a way that we think not a lot of people do, and pastors in particular, but we should be doing this in today's church circles. We discuss unity, charity, and the common bond that we ought to have in gospel work. And then I talked about extremes and we called them warts in the premillennial dispensational leaning camp, which would be my own theological camp. And Jeff talked about the extremes and the warts in the post-millennial camp, which is his theological camp. The result is going to be a conversation that we think will bless you, and it will result in greater unity and love within the body of Christ. It left our hearts so full. We were texting later in the day, just reflecting on God's goodness and our mutual love for one another. And we believe it will do the same for yours. And so let's jump right into this episode with Jeff Durbin. Jeff Durbin, welcome to For the Gospel, bro. Thanks, brother. Glad to be here. Grateful for you, man.
SPEAKER_01How are you doing? I'm doing well. Things are good. Life is busy, ministry is amazing, and uh I'm good.
SPEAKER_00Good. Well, I'm grateful you take the time today. We're gonna be talking about eschatology and discussing some specific things within our own camps. You are post-millennial theonomist, right? Yep. And you are driven, zealous, passionate. I love you. You are doing excellent work. You inspire me, you fire me up, you minister to me, and I'm grateful. I'm of the uh premillennial dispy-leaning variety, uh a dying breed in today's world, perhaps, certainly according to some on Twitter, uh, who just seem to want to annihilate all of us. Me too, brother. It comes in me too. They're angry at you too. It makes me feel good.
SPEAKER_01That's why I just trying to think I try to keep my sanity and and not want to just go to heaven now by staying off X.
SPEAKER_00Stay off Twitter. Yeah. Um see a rapture would be very convenient for you. I'm sure. If you could believe in one, yeah, then it would come in handy with Twitter. Yeah. So we're talking about those things. But first, I want people who don't know you. I know a lot of our audience does, and we all love you, but share a little bit about your ministry, your life, your family, and kind of the trajectory God has you on right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, first of all, I feel the same way about you in in every way. So uh we've we've had a great partnership, and people may not even know that. Uh our friendship and the things we've already started to do together, and you come in to preach and take a Sunday service while I was in the NICU in Wisconsin. That was a big day for you. Yeah, it was it was a big that's when I was actually getting out of the NICU, I believe, and coming. Yeah, you took over for me there and shepherded that day for me. That was I was grateful for that. Uh so where am I at? Uh I'm past at one of the pastors at Apologia Church, planted that church about 15 years ago. Um Apologia Studios um and abortion now. I have my wife I've been married to for over 26 years, uh, seven children and six grandchildren. Come on. You are the youngest grandfather I think I've ever seen in my life. I will say it's one of the great benefits of getting married when you're basically 19 years old. And I married my wife. We grew up together, and uh, and I married my wife uh a week after she turned 18. Brilliant. I was just waiting and waiting. You know, that sounds weird though. I wasn't like 30 years old or anything, you know. Yeah, I was like right next to her, but it was just like as soon as you're 18 and we can be make this legal, we're doing it. So you sing her happy birthday and you're like, Will you marry me? Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. It's so good. And so getting married young, you get to still be young and vibrant when you have grandkids. Amen. You know, you're not you know hurting when you bend over to pick them up. Absolutely. How old are you? Uh uh I'm a rest. Is it a secret? I'm a strong 29. No, no, 47. 47. 47 years old.
SPEAKER_00You still look like a ninja. You well, thank you for that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's uh it's the red light therapy and exercise. Come on. Maybe no, actually, you know what it is? I'll tell you what it is. I really think this has something to do with uh it is Yerba Mate.
SPEAKER_00Ah, speaker from which is not an infomercial for any particular company, but you got me thinking about this. I've never had one before. Yeah. Uh my wonderful executive admin or assistant here, Diana Riggins, is an OG apologia gal. She found out you're filming and said, Oh, will Pastor Jeff be wanting his uh Yurba Mate? I'm like, say what? What are you talking about? And so she tells me the story, and I said, I don't know if he still drinks them or drinks them ever. I don't even know what you're talking about. And um, but sure, go ahead and get some. And so we had this for you today, and I've never had one. So I'm gonna crack this open and I'm gonna pour it in my for the gospel cup.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00And I I'm pretty sure um I'm not breaking any type of Nazarite vow or anything like that by doing this.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's super healthy for you. Just look at the health benefits of Yerba Mate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01High in vitamins and minerals and antioxidants, it's just great for you. The sugar in that one, not so great. However, it's a good introduction to erba mate. And I will say that if you're gonna drink that entire can on this episode, this is gonna be the most intense. I'm gonna become post mill. You will become postmill after you're renting it. I'm going to be postmill for the next one. It's costy you've never seen before.
SPEAKER_00I want to save the whole office complex we're in right now.
SPEAKER_01So um, yeah, uh, I've been drinking it since um I was in Argentina, and it's uh it's awesome.
SPEAKER_00It's not liquid at all.
SPEAKER_01It's just a rainforest tea. That's all it is.
SPEAKER_00See, it's already starting. So good. Well, if I uh keep drinking Yerba Mate, what is it yerba mate?
SPEAKER_01Well, technically, if over in South America you would say Jurba Mate. But wait a minute, we just say Yerba Mate.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, we have Porelli Vangelio, Spanish speaking ministry uh for the gospel, translated. So I wonder if our Spanish-speaking friends from South America in South America. Oh, fantastic. Well, we'll drink some of that and um and we'll talk eschatology, maybe not the wisest combination, but perhaps maybe a world-changing world. I'm here for it.
SPEAKER_01I had some, you're having some. Let's go. Yeah, we're gonna see things we've never seen before.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Twitter's gonna have fun with the introduction, that's for sure. Okay, so here's the deal. I I'm in this series on eschatology on the podcast, here it for the gospel, and I started with the return of Jesus Christ. Everyone has to believe that to even be a Christian. Number two, I did four millennial views, got good feedback on that. I think people appreciated no chippiness, no chucking little subtle jabs at other positions. And then this other uh episode, I'll have the case for pre-millennialism. I want to make that case using scripture and not caricatures of any other views and not even being cheeky or like, yeah, I don't believe this, and they don't even the other thing. And I want I'll talk about in the series a view of the rapture, tribulation, the church, all these things, the millennial kingdom. But in the middle of this whole thing, I had this idea. And I thought, I wish I could just invite a buddy on to talk. And because my heart isn't stirred to draw hard lines and make sure everybody believes what I believe, or I can talk about what's wrong with everyone else. My goal is to teach with conviction, as you have, and I've sat under even you preaching on the Great Commission, one of one of our end abortion now events, and phenomenal. And you preached it with and from a post-millennial view on the text and with zeal, and yet we were all sitting there saying amen. Amen. It was tremendous. And there were guys there who are IFCA, you know, the the independent fundamental church. Like they're they're more dispy than you know, than Tim LaHaye. And so that kind of group, and I've seen you do that, and so I want to teach with conviction and express what we would hold to. What but at the same time, I thought, who should I have on? And without even hesitation, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna text Jeff, or we s you you taught me how to send voice memos, because that's kind of your deal. Yeah, and so I thought I want to have Jeff on. I don't know of a more passionate, zealous, deeply convicted brother in the post-mill world. I know there's some out there they say, I'm I am, that's fine, but who also is charitable, who's theologically astute, sharp in your mind, but so wise and winsome with your tongue. So like your what and your how are two things I admire. And maybe there's some people who who would argue, like, no, I don't think Jeff's that at all. That's not been my experience or even what I've observed with you. I think you're strong as a bull, and yet you're so tender and caring like a shepherd. And so I wanted to talk, and then I thought, well, what if we do something totally different that most guys don't do? They'll debate, I thought, let's discuss. And then two, everyone's so eager to talk about the problems in somebody else's camp. Yeah. Like, you know, here's what I don't agree with you guys on, or here's what and what if we talked about our own and we did it in a way that was really clear and punchy and honest, and then you talk us through and I can talk through a little bit as well. How do you shepherd that? And the goal then is more unity, more clarity, more charity, and more brotherhood, locking arms in this day and age where we need it. That's right. So then you liked the idea, no?
SPEAKER_01You told me, yeah, when you told me to to do this and we can, you know, talk about our own camps and what's wrong and do it in this kind of a way where it's not just a fight, but what do we agree on and what's wrong with the in even our own camp? I said, I'm here for it. Absolutely. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't I don't fight guys who have black belts and who have been a ninja turtle and fought in real mortal combat. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't like to fight guys who have been around the anointing of any hymn.
SPEAKER_00You bring your black belt, I bring my white jacket. You got you know, you're there.
SPEAKER_01I'm not sure what that carries with it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so for people to understand, and I took them through the four views, and I I think I did a pretty fair job, but why don't you unpack briefly what is postmillennialism? What is theonomy? What's kind of the position that you hold? And and that way people understand when you're talking about your camp. And then I'll do the same thing just briefly after you.
SPEAKER_01I thought, by the way, you did a fantastic job on when you were talking about the different views. Uh, even your point on post-millennialism made me want to be more of a post-millennialist. You did this, you did such a good job. Praise God. You did it in such a way where you you were you were not caricaturizing a position, you were explaining this is why they believe what they believe, and here's what's positive about it, and great. I thought it was wonderful. Awesome. I really thought it was wonderful. Glad to hear that. That's genuinely, genuinely did. Um okay, so post-millennialism, uh, you've probably heard this said a bunch of times that it's unfortunate that the millennial views or the different eschatological perspectives are all based upon a single verse in the book of Revelation, Millennium, and everyone sort of pins it to that. And for all the positions, whether it's dispensational premillen, you know, historic premillennialism or on millennialism, post-millennialism, each position uh sort of builds its case really outside of that single text. But unfortunately, that's where we can start the conversation and call it what are you where are you having your millennium? Is it is it before? Yeah, is it is it just uh is it after uh sorry, the resurrection of Christ, you know, and the kingdom of God. It all centers around this millennium. In this, we would all agree in this highly symbolic book of of the Bible. So post-millennialism essentially says that Christ brought the kingdom on time as planned, that he's ruling and reigning on David's throne now, uh at the right hand of the Father, and that uh he's putting every enemy under his feet, um and the last enemy is gonna be death. And so postmillennialism says that the millennial reign of Christ, that perfect period of the reign of the Messiah, is a current reality, it's happening now, and that Christ will return to judge the living and the dead in the final judgment and do away with death ultimately at the end of this millennial reign. And so that means that we would see the promises of Messiah's kingdom as, and this is one of the things we genuinely agree on with pre our pre-millennial brothers. So this is a point where post-millennialists would would be on the same side as the premillennialists, on the point that there are specific and clear descriptions of the world, this reality, this life, with people even living and dying during the this this reign of the Messiah. There are real promises that have to take place in this world and this life that cannot be spiritualized away. They are they are realities that scripture describes clearly about justice on the earth and things like that that are just the Old Testament's filled with those promises. And we would be on the same side as the premillennialists when we say over against our millennial brothers, we would just say, no, those those are pretty clear promises. They're gonna be literally fulfilled. Literally fulfilled in this life, in this world, and there's just no real way to get around the clarity of those promises for this world in the Messiah's kingdom. Now, the premillennialist would say, those promises are real. That's what's really gonna happen in this life, but it's not yet. It's coming later. We would say, Well, the reign of the Messiah is already happening, and those promises right now are all happening and in process, and we're getting to the point where all the enemies of God are put under the footstool or made as a footstool for Christ's feet, put under his feet, and then the last final enemy is gonna be death. And so um, so that's just just it. Christ is ruling and reigning now. Those promises are real, the world's gonna be transformed by God's gospel. It's not going to be um a process that isn't without pain and suffering and difficulty. The trajectory of history is a trajectory that it's all the nations coming to know God. It's the the earth uh uh filled with knowledge of God like the waters cover the sea. It is it is a process, we would see it as a process described in the Old Testament and New Testament as small to large growth. It is a stone that cut out of the mountain that becomes a mountain that fills the earth, or it's a mustard seed that grows into a large tree bigger than a man. And so um it's progress in history, but it's ultimate victory before the resurrection.
SPEAKER_00So good and so helpful. And that drives so much of your I mean your your love for Christ, I know, drives it all. But for you guys, the post-mill view, you are actively pursuing obedience to Christ in all of these ways, knowing and believing the promises of God will come true. What has been prophesied and predicted is going to unfold. So, in a way, and to your credit, it's kind of a like, what are you waiting for? What are we waiting for? Like, let's go. What why aren't you out there getting to work? Get your hand to the plow. Yeah. And so for you, there's a great deal of confidence that God will do what He's promised to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that somebody might say, Okay, metapologia, you have an abortion now, you have all the stuff you're doing with evangelism and the outreach and those things, going to the legislature. Our church body is always on the streets somewhere in Arizona. I mean, at the abortion mill at First Friday, downtown somewhere preaching the gospel, going to strip clubs, standing outside to preach the gospel. There, people say, What really drives that? I would say, well, I would say, first of all, uh, when I look at the book of Acts, you see the leadership of the early Christian church, not just staying in an office and you know, just within the walls of the church, um, or even their house churches, they were out engaging in the marketplace, in the public square, preaching the gospel, starting godly and righteous controversy, uh, taking beatings for Jesus. And you see that the charge against those early Christians was these people are turning the entire world upside down. And that's like a ragtag bunch of nobodies in the Roman Empire with the same God, same gospel, and same spirit that you and I have today. And so we've I've always looked at that and said, all right, there's a model of the leadership of the early church and how we ought to be doing this. We, of course, there's the fellowship, there's the prayer, there's the worship, there's the word, there's the discipleship. But then what are they doing? They're going to the synagogue where the Jews are, and they're proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah. People are taking oaths to not eat until Paul's dead. He's being lowered out of windows for to for the sake of preserving his own life. They're going to the Areopagus in Mars Hill. They're going and being challenged by the council. Didn't we tell you not to preach in this man's name? And they say we must obey God rather than men, and they take a beating for Jesus. And so they're getting in trouble because they're bringing the gospel outside the walls of the church. So I would say that's a primary motivator methodologically for me. It always has been, is I want to follow in their footsteps and do what they, through the Spirit of God, did in the first century to take a pagan empire and turn it on its head. Um and then somebody might say, okay, but more, give me more. I'd say, Yeah, I I I think my belief about the the kingdom of Christ and the reign of Christ in this world and the hope we have for the future of this world does drive so much of the confidence and the hope you have in doing these kinds of ministries because they're awful. Going to the abortion mill is awful. Some days you go there and you walk away thinking, God, I don't even know why you're having me here. And this is just a rotten, rotten experience. We've had people try to hit us with their cars, pull guns on us, punch us, beat us up, throw things at us. Our team has experienced everything. And you you sometimes you get there and all you do is get screamed at. There's no baby was saved that day. It's depressing, it's sad. Uh, but the hope you have is that God is the sovereign, he has a sovereign grace and a sovereign will, he will accomplish all of his purposes. No one can stay his hand and say, What have you done? He does according to his will in the heavens above and on the earth below. And so there's that, the sovereignty of God, but then also the hope that God has a plan for his king in this world, and Christ is reigning on that throne, and the promise is this is what the world will look like. But this is interesting, Cossi, because you made a good point that I've always tried to emphasize, and that is that I I really don't have any interest in converting people to my camp eschatologically. I, of course, want to teach on it, and I want to say this is what I believe is faithful, and this is the this is where the world is going, but I don't have any um desire to get people to to put the title post-millennialist over their head. What I do have a desire to do is to say, hey, we're all supposed to be organized around these truths about the lordship of Christ, his reign, his rule, his authority. We all affirm pre-mill, omil, post-mil, that Christ is king of kings today. Yep. Like that's not just a pithy slogan. No. We're all saying it because the text says it. And so that's why when I've tried to organize pastors and churches to fight against the issue of abortion with me, it's charismatics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, it's a spectrum. And what I can emphasize is Christ is King of Kings, and every single one universally says Amen. And Christ commands us to go and to make disciples of the nations and to teach them to obey him. Now, whether whatever your perspective of of what the future is going to hold and details, we all are unified around that. Yes. And so all I've really tried to impress is not it's not like 110-proof post-millennialism when I'm gathered with pastors in Georgia for a bill. It's just the Great Commission. Yes. And whether whether you're pre-mill, omil, or post-mill, we're supposed to be unified around those truths. Now, are there differences? Yeah, I'll believe that that's going to be not just wishful thinking, but it's going to happen. The premillennialists might say, like MacArthur, who's led me to Christ ultimately. Um, MacArthur's responsible for my ministry. Um, and MacArthur would say, No, we lose down here. But what's positive is that MacArthur was still preaching and teaching in the public square. He was still writing books, he was still building seminaries. You know what I'm saying? Right, prison ministry. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00It was always, it's always the yeah, they're the way they act. Right. They're like, we're taking LA. Right. You're like, okay.
SPEAKER_01So you go, I go, hey, I'm satisfied. I mean, if you if you think it's not gonna work out and Christ is gonna have to come back to rescue it all and ultimately put his fist down and rule and reign for a little thousand-year reign, okay, but I still love the fact that you're fighting. Yeah, you better be. Or when MacArthur was, you know, fighting against the government, yeah. And during the COVID situation, we must obey God rather than men. Christ is king, he's king over you, Gavin Newsom. Yeah, he's ruler over you. I'm gonna obey Jesus over you because he's the king over you, the king of this state, in a way. And so for that, in that matter, I go, that doesn't at that point it doesn't even matter if you really believe that it's gonna be victorious, you're fighting like we ought to fight. Yes. And that's my main focus with when I'm teaching these things about post-millennialism is like, look, even if you disagree with me on whether or not this is gonna take place or you can put your hands on it here, um, you're still supposed to be fighting. Yes. The same.
SPEAKER_00Yep. That's why when you preach that text It didn't matter. I know you're a post mill bro preaching it. Every one of us are saying amen. It's what we're all supposed to be using. Because it's it's obvious. Yeah. Okay. So I'm of the pre-mill disp variety. And MacArthur famously called called it leaky dispensationalism. And I think he did that for a couple of reasons. One to distance from maybe the the free grace kind of remember the Dallas Theological Seminary kind of era of free grace, dispensational, very much there, whereas he's more the lordship that way. And plus the reformed, maybe the leak of reformed theology into what now is a very odd. I love when things don't have labels because it's like, no, they're just the Bible. So you got guys that are reformed, in a lot of ways, I would call them lowercase are reformed. Yeah. And then yet they're dispensational or they view certain things through the Disp lens and they're premillennial. So in that regard, um, interesting. So much of what you say between the post-male pre-male view, in my mind, I always think it's it's timing. We we're so often probably talking about timing, yeah, not the way we live and do ministry. So for me, uh, you know, we're in the church age and we should be getting after it. There's no room for passivity and and letting your foot off the gas at all. No sitting around like waiting for a rapture, Jesus is gonna take us out of here and and all that. And I've got I can't wait for the the warts to talk about the warts in my camp. But um, we're in the church age, we need to evangelize the whole world. We've got to be getting after it, turn the world upside down, change the world. All those are phrases I love. I don't shy away from them. And at some point, yes, there'll be these things that begin to stir, birth pangs and whatnot, and you'll see things not always going the way we'd want. But in my view and of Scripture's view, I believe, there's explosive revival. The church is always being built. There's never a um a lack of advancement. And so there's nothing in my theology or my eschatology that says, oh yeah, Jeff, you know, good luck with that. That ain't gonna happen. You're never gonna get there. I'm going, no, you're going to keep advancing. And then there'll come a day, I don't know when that is. Another issue with my camp is apparently some people always do know when the day is. But uh when the the stealing away, the snatching away, the removal of the church, and in that I would always view it as not an escape or some, you know, frozen chosen sit around, can't wait for the rapture to get out of here, but a removal of what has been the common grace upon the earth. The Jeff Durbin, let's just say kind of humor my position for a moment. When the church is taken out, there is no more Jeff Durbin on the earth. And they will wish that there was a Jeff Durbin on the earth. They'll wish the church was still here. We're removed as the tribulation then begins because of my view interpretively of not of the Lord not putting his bride through that tribulation. Seven years. We go up, believers judgment, 1 Corinthians 3, usually the text, 11 to 15, that we would use, marriage supper of the Lamb, and all of that. After the seven years, the church then returns. This is your Revelation chapter 19 view. Christ is returning, and the armies of the earth are gathered. The Antichrist has risen up, and Christ returns, and there's an army in white robes. That is the church, that is all the believers. They are returning. His foot hits the Mount of Olives, a sword comes from his mouth, and he smites them, and the bodies are piled high. And what the angel has said is, Come and eat the bodies of the wicked. The birds of the air are circling. At that moment, you move into Revelation chapter 20. You have the thousand-year reign of Christ, literal reign, although we would still even now say he's reigning. And at that moment, Satan is bound and he's no longer roaming the earth like a roaring lion seeking to devour. He's bound, Christ rules. One final rebellion, and then that leads to the Lord sending the enemy, devil, into the lake of fire, all that. You have your final judgment in that moment, and I'm kind of summarizing great right thrown judgment into the eternal state. That view for me should never involve uh a view that slows down the advancement of the kingdom of God. Yeah. And at the same time, I I would like to transition into warts in our camps. And I want to start. I just laid out my view, and I think it's fair that I start since I'm the host and I'd I want to be hard on my own uh first and not let you do that. Uh in talking with you prior, I think I have more missiles, but you said you have less, but maybe they're they're more nuclear yours. But let me let me kind of go off on on some of the problems I've seen with the premillennial dispensational camp. Number one, oh, I would say Zionism or Zionist extremism, or maybe even add in Zionism without the gospel. And I don't think you can have Zionism with the gospel. I don't mean to say that. I mean to say it's just Zionism without any regard for the gospel. And, you know, I jotted down a few notes so I could be succinct because they get pretty fired up about this in the pulpit as well, as a primo guy. But we've got people that so emphasize national Israel that they uncritically support anything that's happening right now. Everything. You know, anything Israel could go and and nuke everyone. They nuke us and they're like, stand with Israel. Bless them. God bless them. We want the blessing for standing with Israel. That's right. Um they think that everything politically, culturally, with Israel is we just blindly support because we're Christians. I've heard people say, like, well, we want to stand with God's people, and and how they're, you know, we look at them, it's like, oh, it's almost as though we're these kind of, you know, barely adopted, barely in mom and dad kind of looked and like, oh, we better take that one, nobody else wants them. And we barely got in, and it's like, oh, what's it like to be a Jew and and Israel and like a real God's people? Truly God's chosen. I just got kind of roped into this thing, and I'm just lucky to be here. Yeah, instead of viewing, and I've preached through the book of Ephesians, you have too, you look at what it what it is to be sealed, chosen, called. Are you kidding me? I'm I'm a temple, you're a temple. Yeah, and I'm a child of Abraham, amen. And so, in that regard, um, I think Zionism in my camp is at an all-time dangerous high. And they we neglect, and I I won't do this, but I'll just say we in our camp, we would neglect that Israel's ultimate hope is in Christ, even though they'll say that, it's not how we act. And they'll they'll act like the ultimate hope is land, yeah, and we're gonna have Israel, we're gonna take it. 1948, although it could be significant for some people, I I don't see that as like the be all end all. I've often said with our position, you can call it Kentucky, New Mexico, you can call Israel whatever you want, or Jerusalem, a true pre-mill position of the dispensational variety would simply say, if they obliterate Israel right now, modern Israel, and all the armies of whatever. In our position, shouldn't it be, if you're holding it biblically, that when Jesus returns to that spot, that the Bible, we would say literally the Mount of Olives, I don't care what you call it, you can call it Putinville, whatever. When he returns to that moment, that's when he's gonna establish it. So I'm not obsessed with what Netanyahu is doing or whether or not we stand. I'm just looking at a future hope or a future moment that will be literally fulfilled, and I don't need to freak out every time Israel does something in the news. Romans 11 points to Israel's salvation being in Christ and not geopolitics. So Zionism drives me nuts, it's gotta stop. Enough is enough.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's got to feel good. We're brothers in that too. We both get attacked for that. Yeah, bring it up. Twitter. I don't even have Twitter. We're Abraham's descendants, and we have faith in Christ. We've been grafted in, and and all of those things should be common, just generally understood Christian truths.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Okay, side note, it's not the Yurba Mate, whatever. Um, I'm fired up. My father, on this one, no, I can promise you. My father is a Palestinian Arab. He speaks fluent Arabic. I grew up going to Israel all the time, more Holy Land tours than you'd ever imagine. And my father would speak Arabic, and we would always talk with Palestinians. And I remember asking my dad questions about what was happening there. He grew up, he was born and raised in Jaffa, but so he grew up with Israelis, Jews, they spoke French, Hebrew, Arabic, grew up with Muslims. It was very all just mixed together. And I remember asking my father his views on these sometimes, and just as a child, second generation from a Middle Eastern father, spoke fluent Arabic. I grew up eating Arabic food, like everything. And in that, I remember him just sharing with me as a guy who was they were favored by the Israelis, and my uncle took a lot of people on tour there, and we have friends local, like Minister of Tourism. We would fly into Tel Aviv and red carpet, private plane, and like roll through. So certainly very pro-Israel, stay at the King David Hotel and all of that. And I remember my father reminding me one time in a very clear way that my son, we have you have more in common with with the Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank who is a believer in Jesus Christ. And granted, I know we had some weird theology and prosperity gospel, but there were still things said like this you have more in common with them than you do with the Jew who has rejected Christ as the Messiah. And that stuck with me even today, as much as I would disagree with the theology I grew up in of the prosperity gospel, I would say more Christians in my camp need to remember you you are brothers and sisters with the Arab believer in Christ. Yeah. And yet we often would shun those kind of things. And as long as we're standing with Israel, we're we're we're in the blessing of God. So pretty big axe to grind. I'm sure I offended somebody. Too bad. Grab your Bible and I'll show you where. Um it's Jesus, not Netanyahu. Number two, escapist passivity. The rapture is rescue pod stuff drives me up the wall. It's a mentality that can lead believers to completely disengage from everything you're doing that we all should be doing. So cultural, social, political responsibility. So instead of fighting sin or advancing the gospel, people are like, ah, why polish the brass on the Titanic? Who cares? So what you get, and I think to be fair, we get some buddies or different guys, maybe in your camp or others like Postmill who call it. I think right now the thing is, if I remember, and I'm sorry if I'm butchering the quote, but something about boomers and the rapture and like boomer theology, and what it is, they're not wrong completely, but it's that it's this view that because of the rapture obsession, there's a selfish, wealthy group of American kind of from the last generation that all sat around and were like, ah, we're gonna get you know taken out of here anyway. Might as well enjoy it while we're here, and like, yeah, Jeff, that's a little weird. You know, we don't want to do that. Jesus is gonna rapture us all anyway, don't worry about it. And we're very don't worry about it. And so you have this escapist mentality because of you of a harpod so the taking away, instead of if you actually believe that Jesus is gonna pull the church out of here and pull out the elect, would you not be busier getting after it, giving generously, leading courageously? Because if the imminent uh taking away of the church is going to be at hand at some point, then won't you live today as though there was no tomorrow rather than sitting around doing nothing? So my camp gets really into this whole thing. And what's always ironic to me is how it it it's not it's not working. And so at the very least, some of the most pragmatic people that would hold this view who are well, if it works, we'll do it. It's not working. You've changed nothing. The world's going to hell in a handbasket. Not only because you have a view of the end times that says that, but maybe because you've done nothing and you're just sitting around uh drinking too much fine wine and you should be getting after it for the sake of the gospel. Number three, fear-mongering evangelism. Uh, instead of focused on a focus on Christ and repent of sin and turn to him, the idea of you know, you don't want to be left behind, little Jeff, little Jeffrey. Yeah, um, you you better follow Jesus because you don't want to be left behind and and mommy and daddy are gone. Imagine what it would be like here, and you're alone, and like we no one's here. And and so I had nightmares as a kid because of Left Behind. I saw the original Left Behind and like pre-Kirk Cameron days. Like one in the 70s kind of thing. Yeah, oh totally. I wish they'd all been ready.
SPEAKER_01First time I heard the gospel, 16 years old. My first Bible study ever went to going to church was walking into a youth group in a living room where they were watching that movie. That was my introduction.
SPEAKER_00We had a guy playing the acoustic guitar. I wish they'd all been ready. There's no time to change your mind. The sun is coming, you've been left behind. We'd all cry and we're like walk the aisle all of it. Remember that?
SPEAKER_01Listen to it a thousand times. That was it. So passionate driving down the road. Yes. And you're like, oh big, man. I'm not gonna be here for two more minutes. You see, I'm going.
SPEAKER_00Bro, and and I used to cry, I used to have nightmares as a kid, and be like, what if I'm married one day and I'm in my bed and then my wife isn't a believer? Because actually, we like she she happened to not be a Christian, or and I used to think you could lose your salvation. So I'm like, what if what if I was mad at God one day and then I lose my salvation, then my wife and kids are gone and I'm here, and you just have what you have is a whole generation that are more scared of you know, FOMO, like being left behind or left out, than they are of the fear of God, of sin and holiness. I would love for my camp to do a better job preaching the fear of the Lord, and that his justice is gonna roll like a tidal wave over humanity, and the wicked are going to be punished and condemned. And Christ, he's the one who judge who will administer all judgment. And at the hand of Christ, everyone in hell will be judged and condemned. And if you do not turn to Christ in faith, you're gonna face eternal damnation. Right. Being left behind is the last of your worries. In fact, if you get left behind, there's some great material on YouTube still from Apologia and from for the gospel, that'll save you, and you can be the next Jeff Durbin, you know, apparently if if we're if the rapture is real. In that regard, your greatest concern ought to be the justice of God upon sin. Yeah. And so we don't we don't preach the gospel, we preach fear-mongering. So in that uh we have failed and we can do a better job. Number four, date setting and failed predictions. Yeah. Hal Lindsay, Harold Camping, there's just a long trail. Speculative charts, false predictions, the end of the world. In my opinion, they discredit premillennialism, and certainly those that are respected in dispensational scholarship. It breeds cynicism as well. People start rolling their eyes at any eschatology conversation with types in our camp because it's like, oh, here we go. Let me get you get your food storage ready. Pretty ironic.
SPEAKER_01And uh, you know, how many times have you you said, okay, I guess we gotta you know get canned foods again and all the stuff we have to do for survivors' food.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, the irony of the irony of that, but paired with the gym, like he's selling food storage in these people. You have like the the disp-crazy people selling things online, yeah, food storage and whatnot, but they're leaving. So what a terrible evangelistic strategy. Right. You should be giving them the gospel, but instead you're like, let me make money off these people who are gonna sit here in the tribulation with bowls of wrath poured out upon them.
SPEAKER_01I'll be I'll be at the marriage stepper of the lamp.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad I made my money off you.
SPEAKER_01Dude, those Jim Baker videos are the most hilarious. They're so much fun though to watch the guy that looked like. They're the worst. You seen the guy edit those? Yes. Okay, good. Those are never not funny.
SPEAKER_00Man, um, drop drop a comment on YouTube if you if you got your food storage um ready to go. And then uh another Antichrist obsession. Yeah, every Antichrist, everything's the mark of the beast. Remember the vaccine? I was getting DM'd left and right. Well meaning, by the way, sincere people, and this is what breaks my heart pastorally, sincere people saying, Pastor, do you think that like the vaccine is the mark of the beast? Everyone has to have it, no one can buy or sell without it. I'm like, well, the Apple Watch was too, because remember the the forehead and the wrist, and then you know, the reformers thought the Pope was the Antichrist, then the iPhone came along. It's like everyone always thinks something is the, and then it'll be, you know, Elon Musk or whoever, Jason. Yeah, you'll you'll get something in your brain. And yeah, and okay, but that type of fixation it trivializes eschatology, it stirs up panic, and instead of ministering to people to have great discernment and faithfulness, we've got them with their newspaper clippings wondering what tech company is going to be at the center of you know, Nikolai, whatever Carpathia's big thing. So it's like, is it NVIDIA? Is it Amazon? No, it's gotta be Google. It's good, no, it's Apple for sure. Apple. You know, they got the Illuminati up there, and you're just like, you people are crazy. You need to go and pray and stand with Jeff at an abortion and abortion now event and get it.
SPEAKER_01Get busy with with important things, the valuable things, not just constant speculation and then uh finding yourself with egg on your face constantly because you've tried to predict the return of Christ, or you called this person an antichrist and they're clearly not, you know, something like that. You we end up looking bad and you wear people out and end up, I think, bringing shame upon Christ's name. I say that as I'm listening to all your criticisms as the person who was like all those things. That was where I came from. Like my my first Bible study.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Was my that was my that was so you got all into it? Oh, for sure. Oh, you didn't know this? I didn't know that. I thought you were born post-mill. No, dude. Um, so my first Bible study, youth group, was that scary tribulation movie. Um, and so all my first introduction to eschatology was all dispensational premillennialism, but it was of it's not where you're at. It was of the radical stripe, as you know, we're talking the guys that were, you know, speculating on now. I know we don't ever they always start with like, I know we know we didn't know the exact day or hour, but we know the season. And if you count the seasons up, and if you pull together this thing we know here, people will say, that means you know, Jesus didn't know, but let me hook you up. Like we know that's uh those that's people I ran with. So when I went to Bible college, the class that I love the most was my eschatology class. And that was Constantine I'm telling you, you can ask my wife to verify this, she will tell you he's not exaggerating at all. I'm talking every day. It's even as a newlywed, it's all I talk to my wife about. No way. I mean, I I I left behind series, all the eschatological books I can get on on uh the rapture. I remember being a newlywed. I think we were like maybe a week or two in, and you know, loving being up a new wife in my own home. You know, we're young, we have our whole lives ahead of us. And I was like, I'm gonna go out to the pool and and read this left behind book. And I go out to the pool. I remember sitting there as a newlywed, just like, thank you, Lord, for my life. It's so wonderful. You know, I I really like not like to be raptured right now, but then also wishing myself in a rapture, like reading this book excited, going, okay, now, okay, now. Like uh, I was so into it. And so I was I was there, and I was the kind of guy that would preach the gospel like that. You know, you're gonna be left behind, you don't want to be left behind. Wow. I was the one looking for the Antichrist everywhere, and I was also going to Borders, Books, and Music every week without fail to get the new Jerusalem Post. Bro. So I could search through it to see if there's any signs of the presence of Antichrist, Beast of Revelation, do they have the red heifer? And I was so excited about Israel building a new temple. And if they could just build that temple, I'd come home, babe. Babe, I think they got the cornerstone. You remember that? They do. They got the cornerstone. And any moment we're out of here, babe. Look, I know we're about you're about to give birth to our firstborn son. It's probably not gonna happen. I hate to break it to you, sweetheart. We're probably gonna see him in heaven. I don't think we're gonna go another week. Oh, dude. And then another week would go by, and she'd be like, What do you think now? I'd be like, uh, maybe a couple days, a couple more days. And then Y2K happened. Remember that? Y2K happened? Dude, I was in high school, it was over. Yeah. Dude, I I was, I mean, my wife, I would just finish, I would I had all the charts on the wall and I was like, and you know, and this is why. And I remember being at Walmart with my my my precious, beautiful young wife at Walmart, and um and we're just getting last minute goods at Walmart Dry Goods, because I'm like, it's over. It's over. And the rapture might take place five days after, so let's make sure we have some macaroni and cheese. Absolutely. You gotta have craft dinner. That's all that's how I lived. So that's where I came from. So I'm these are all resonating with me. That's I came out of it.
SPEAKER_00I wish you were just we're just a little too late on this video. Yeah, just 20, 25 years too late to reach crazy Jeff David.
SPEAKER_01You would have seen me wild, trust me.
SPEAKER_00I love candies. Response. Yeah. Hey, so so the the deadline came and went. It just gonna be probably a couple more days.
SPEAKER_01Trust my leadership, babe. All right. Follow my follow my leadership.
SPEAKER_00You were already patriarchal. No, I mean like you need to follow the children.
SPEAKER_01She was always dub and gracious to me. And she believed it too. And she was raised in that. She was raised in the same exact.
SPEAKER_00So she's buying, she's like you know, following you.
SPEAKER_01She's a southern girl raised, born and raised in Kentucky. You know, this kind of Bible Baptist church thing, you know, independent fundamental separated Baptist, rapture's coming. So she came from all that too. So it wasn't like a jolt for her to see her husband just a maniac about it. She's like, all right. She's like, this is how we live. I guess I got a good husband. He's a good leader.
SPEAKER_00He knows the times and the seasons. My man is on it. Let's go. So good. So in that, um, number six for me, the neglect of the present kingdom reality. This one I really want to emphasize. Some Dispy voices get so future-oriented that they underplay Christ's present reign and the church's current mission. So you've got Colossians 1.13, Christ is reigning now. And then in a in just a proper position, let's say, in our camp, what should be is Revelation chapter 20 unpacks it in verses 1 through 6, this, this, this, and that's that's future. But I just I want to remind you, church, that he is ruling and reigning even now. So we're not sitting around waiting for a future reality of a literal kingdom, and you know, our our Jesus is defeated, and he's like, Man, I just hope we can do this, and and y'all just sit around and hold on, I'll be there soon. You know, don't you worry. No, we are under the rulership and the kingship of Christ, he's advancing his kingdom. So when my church members stick Christ's king signs in their lawn, they're dead on, they're spot on. That's amen. That's true. We had some, I had a buddy, you know, everyone's putting, and he's a conservative guy, everyone's putting their Trump signs, and when the election happened, they're putting them in a yard, and he's like, Hey guys, I ordered some some signs for everyone in our group. I'm like, Oh, cool, man. Sends us a photo and it says Christ is king, you know, 24, whatever it was, and he just sticks it in his yard. That's not a joke. That's that's true. Yeah, he is. And to our discredit, I remember when I first started researching all of this and going back, because I kicked over every rock in my theology and went, okay, here's all that I believed. I gotta get back to square one. And when I got to eschatology, I found a lot of issues, holes, and cracks. I was like, all right, let me restart. And in that, I remember uh kind of a more extremist view of like you can't preach Matthew to to the church age. Like, what? And I remember being like, wait, what? And someone was like, Yeah, uh, the Beatitudes are a kingdom ethic. And and even as now I'm preaching through the gospel of Matthew at our church, and I'm finding these commentaries where guys are like, Yeah, in the old days, somebody said this, this, this, and that's actually not true. And so I'm thankful a lot of people know this now. But I remember at one point reading a guy who was saying how Matthew, you can't you can't preach Matthew 24. You I can't preach the parable, the talents to the church age because it's and I'm going, What? What? So I'm I'm pulling out my books, I'm going seminary on it. I'm like, this is nuts. And that would be, I think, an example of we're neglecting the present kingdom reality. That there, you know, I remember for a while guys wouldn't in my camp wouldn't use the word, some still won't, won't use the word kingdom without qualifier. And they're like, we've got to advance the kingdom of God. And and I'm not talking about his literal thousand years. It's like, we don't need you to keep doing that. Like it's okay. No qualification necessary. I'm in the kingdom, I'm a child of the kingdom, the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a good point. I think that that's a point of of unity that we can all hold on to together. So each each camp, pre-mil, a male, post-mil, has can say now, but not yet. Each camp can say that. The premillennialist means it in one regard, uh, one respect. They say, you know, now, ruling, reigning now, but not yet in that way that's that's coming. The ah millennialist says it the same way. The postmillennialist says now, but it's not yet finished. We're still on the way to its completion and ultimate glory. Um, but what we have to all agree with, and that's what you're getting at, Costi, is that we can't be saying or acting like it's now but not really. Yes. See, that and that's the that's always been the challenge for me, is to is to put my finger on is you can't say as a Christian now, but not really. Yep. Because you can't turn around and start saying, Oh, King of Kings and Lord of Lords and all authority in heaven and on earth. But not. But not really. And and so what even if you think you're gonna be defeated for doing it and you're gonna go take a beating for Jesus, you still have to go take a beating for Jesus because He's He has all authority. And look, you may not think you're gonna accomplish anything in a particular sphere or realm, but you bring the authority of Christ and his message there, anyways, and maybe you take a beating for Jesus. Okay, the apostles were grateful for that. They walked away rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for Christ's name. So you have to do it anyways, even if you think you're gonna lose, you still have to press the crown rights of Christ in that area. And so that's what we all can be unified on. And so, my my you know, so you don't believe in now, but not yet. I say, Yeah, each view has a now and not not yet. But we just can't say now, but not really. Oh, come on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fire me up. All right, I got two more. Overcharting and system mania, dispensational tendency to chart every detail of prophecy leads to a kind of prophetic engineering, I'll call it. Yeah, and that's that's like when we come to a text in the book of Revelation, which is apocalyptic in so many ways. You mentioned symbolism, there is and let's say we're in a particular text and you see something that could have some mystery. I think mystery is a good thing. Yeah, I think it's not a bad thing at all. The text is clear, absolutely, and then there's mystery. We don't need to go, well, that's that's you know, those birds are helicopters. Right, Apaches. Okay. Okay, just hold on. No, I'm sure of it. Like, all right, wow, you you are like the people who are like Jesus didn't know, now we do. Don't worry, follow me. And I think what happens with an over-engineered view of prophecy, uh, you end up with these charts and these systems, and now we know everything, and it's gonna be this in this country and that country, and too much, too much. And then finally, number eight, novelty and pop prophecy culture, end times fiction, and sensational prophecy updates, like tying to every news cycle you brought up, like I go to get the Jerusalem Times, they've created more excitement and speculation about these things than people are even excited about the gospel, and that's not a caricature, and that's not me being cheeky or just pithy. That is dead on true, and you know it, and I know it, and everybody in the Amel camp knows it. We have a tendency, and I've experienced this as a pastor. I'm in the Gospel of Matthew. Israel and Iran start chucking some missiles at each other. It's a weekend. I get into the pulpit Sunday, and I pray like normal. And Lord, in these uncertain times and with so much going on, we pray that our focus would be on you and our trust in you and that the glory of Christ would be the emphasis of what we do and why we live and we would reach the name. And I'm praying and preaching normal, and I preach. I get the email, the person comes up after, or the Monday morning, you know, quarterback who is watching the film and decides I'm gonna send Costi my two cents. I'm leaving the church, I was watching Jack Hibbs, he's a real pastor. I saw the prophecy update from Amir Safari, and these are some guys that hold some things that like we would agree on in the pre-mill camp, and I get that, but like I watch them and you get in the pulpit on Sunday morning and you just preach through the Beatitudes or you know, whatever text and math, as though like nothing significant is happening right now as God unfolds his plan for the ages with Israel. Like, we gotta be aware of the times, Pastor. I gotta be the church that will prepare me for the season we're in. You gotta know the times. And I'm going, I this is this what the older guys meant when they told me there's gonna be blessed subtraction in my ministry.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00Maybe. And so here's my qualm is you know, we're gonna have shallow discipleship, we're gonna have misplaced hope, and we'll probably have, and I would say not even probably, we will have a bunch of people that don't evangelize, don't try to reach people at the abortion, the murder mill, they don't disciple their kids, they don't do family worship, they do not give generously, and they got lots of money, they could, or they have less money, but they don't give anyway, they don't serve at the church, they do not want to know their neighbors and invite people over, they don't want to engage the two Mormon kids that are supposedly elders on their curb, and they don't want to get after it for the kingdom of God, but they will sit in front of their phone till 12 midnight freaking out over what Jack Hibbs is saying about the end of the world and Trump, and man, they got their MAGA hat and they love it, and I'm conservative and vote Republican, just like they do, and they are obsessed with Turning Point USA, even though Charlie Kirk would not even agree with the way they're living. And they will hit the pastor up on Monday morning because he did not satisfy their dispensational obsession from a generation gone by, and they're probably not even living right, but man, let's let the pastor know he didn't do the Calvary Chapel. And that's no shade to the Calvary Chapel pastors that are doing a good job. Praise God. And God bless Jack Hibbs. He's involved with legislation, he's getting after it too with local governments. I yeah, I'm not throwing nukes at him. I'm just tired of in my generation as a younger pastor getting hit up by the person. I'm going, look, I think you the last thing you should be worried about is whether or not I did the Amir Sefati, whatever, like Israel Now kind of thing on Sunday. Right. And let's just talk about your issues in life and sin in the Christian life, and let's get you active in the neighborhood. Because right now, maybe I missed it on Sunday because I didn't give you the prophecy update, but I got three of my neighbors going to church. So um I'm gonna roll that way, and I'm still dispy, and I've got some views on literal prophecies that I think will get fulfilled in the future. Yeah, and yet you need to chill out. So, my my camp, I think, needs a little overhaul. I believe it's happening more and more. I think what we're gonna see and already are, is a silent is a sorry, uh a loud minority that pop off about everything. And what's probably gonna happen, Lord willing, as more of us talk like this and we think about these things, Lord willing, they'll become a greater silent majority in in these camps, yeah. Where many of us are living this way, and we start to see these things pop up and go, ah, that's that's caricature or that's minority. Yeah, but would you say I've been accurate with my eight?
SPEAKER_01Would you say that is the issues that even you're like, I'm glad Costi's saying it because Yeah, and I was I was there and and you you said it, I mean, in in a way I think more clearly than I could have in in a number of those cases, but I was there, I felt those things was that way in in many respects with those things. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, what what about the post mails? I mean, you guys are changing the world, ending abortion, so we should all be able to do that. So are you, brother?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you are too.
SPEAKER_00Talk to me about what you see pastorally.
SPEAKER_01As problems in my camp, yeah. There are none. No, I'm just joking. Not just joking. Um, I um there's a there's a lot of dramatic uh problems. And so I I I these are these are conversations that we have amongst post-millennial brothers. We're constantly saying that's a problem, that's a problem. I think uh pre if I could boil it down premierely, I think there's a a huge problem of hypocrisy and arrogance within the post-male camp.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And you you know you know this year in the reformed world too, you generally see this problem of of arrogance, haughtiness, yes, theological haughtiness just within the reform camp, period.
SPEAKER_00Irrespective of post mail views, it's like reformed cockiness.
SPEAKER_01It's it's i I I've said often that there are a lot of reformed brothers and sisters that I wouldn't have over for dinner. I'd rather I'd rather we eat with an unbeliever than a lot of these reformed um uh professing reform people, just how abusive, haughty, arrogant, turn your their nose up. If you're not with them on every John and Tittle, you know, you're not truly reformed. And you know, there's so I've always said that and I I feel this in my in my own life, and that's why I say it out loud, is because I remember being the zealous young man in love with Jesus, wants to win the world to Christ, you know, newly even newly reformed, it so loves theology, zeal for Jesus, but no wisdom, filling my head with so much uh the apologetic literature on the triune God, and how do I defend that and historical argumentation along with this, and and who was the first person that argued for the Trinity? Oh, yes, let's talk about Tertullian and Sibelian, you know, all that stuff, and knowing that data, and then getting into all these positions, memorizing these verses and everything, having a head filled with so much truth, but being a knowledgeable fool, having no wisdom. And so I see that problem as a general problem within the reform camp. Then I see it over here with post-millennialism. The same problem exists. There's an there's an arrogance, a haughtiness that exists amongst a lot of post-millennial guys. And they're not like you're doing, you're not indicting your whole camp.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01We're saying what's a problem within the camp is I think there's a problem packed in it with a lot of reform guys post-mill, and so there's that sort of problem that we already have, and then it bleeds over into post-millennialism. And so when you take a guy who is already dealing with haughtiness and pride, and you give him an eschatology that says you're gonna win the world with the gospel. Now he's gonna maybe hurt some people because he's already arrogant, and now he thinks the world belongs to him under the authority of Christ, of course. So there's this this arrogance within my camp that is detestable to me. Now, I I I know that I I am a work in progress myself. You can ask my family, you can ask people who are closest to me. I am I am not done. Jesus isn't done with me. I need a savior just like everybody does. God is is is at work in me, truly sanctifying my life, especially this last life, this last year of my life with ministry and family and adopting twins with one with a disability, a severe disability. It's just, you know, I'm being sanctified. Amen. So when I indict other guys and say this is a problem, I'm not doing it from a high mountain looking down. I'm saying we're all a mess. So the arrogance you'll see in my camp with post-millennialists is a genuine problem. A lot of guys will just, you know, see the hope that they have in the future with all these scriptures, and then they'll say, okay, I'm gonna go out and win the world, but they don't do it with wisdom, they don't do it with humility, they don't do it with compassion. They forget the fact that it's Christ who's winning the world through his gospel. We're a means in that. You're not the one doing it. You're just a means. You're a spoke and a wheel. And um, you need to be okay with that. And just be faithful, trust, and obey Jesus. And uh and don't be so arrogant, don't be so haughty. Be bold where God is bold in his word and gives you reason to be bold. If he says something in his word, be bold about that, but do it with uh um a humble boldness, because this is his world, it's his kingdom, it's not yours. You're just a means to what Christ is accomplishing for his glory and not for yours. And so uh, so there's there's that general problem. And I think there's a major problem of hypocrisy, hypocrisy within my camp. And this is probably what irritates me the most with people who identify as post-millennial theonomist, is it becomes just this head, heady experience. This it's all in my head. I can articulate all these things about the kingdom of Christ and his victory in the world, and then you know, the law of God being applied in this realm. And we need you here, guys that are talking about we need a Christian prince and we need this and Christian nationalism, and unfortunately, a lot of post-millennialism has got wrapped up even in the Christian nationalist discussion now. I think that's highly unfortunate in many ways, because a lot of people in that camp and that belief system are just, I think, just dangerous, um, spiritually dangerous. They're just not gonna they won't they don't work well with others.
SPEAKER_00And do they lead with their Christian nationalism versus leading with a a post-millennial view, but then a Christ-centered zeal?
SPEAKER_01Is that yeah, it's strange because like years ago, Costing, when this whole Christian nationalist thing was coming out, people were asking me, Are you a Christian nationalist? And I would say, well, if you mean do I want to see every nation come to Christianizes, the world, yeah. Do I want to see every nation come to Christ, be a Christian nation? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know what that means. What's Christian nationalists mean? And now as time has gone on, you're seeing it morph into all these different views. And so I think it's problematic. And so for some guys, I think there's there's no post-millennialism involved. You know, there's there's guys, you know, that write books on Christian nationalism and they, you know, they mock post-millennialism. Um, so they don't lead with their post-millennialism at all because they don't have it. And theirs is more of you know, based upon natural theology and natural law and a lot of speculation, and you know, we don't need people to believe in Jesus from the heart. We just need to have Christian laws. That's the farthest thing from post-millennialism in the world. That's not even near the gospel in a sense. Not at all. And so I think it's that's problematic, but there's a hypocrisy in that you can it's it's look, dude, it's the same problem you see in the reform camp, where you'll have people that'll that'll go, man, John 6, John 10, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, and my goodness. And you're like, all these things are the sovereignty of God and God's power and salvation, and they'll just preach the doctrines of grace. You know, there's just be at a coffee shop, just telling everyone about the five points and look at these verses and everything else. And they're just they know so dang much. And look, God can sovereignly change any heart and turn any heart of stone into a heart of flesh, and you can open the eyes of the blind, and you're like, Whoo, man, that preaches. So what are you doing? Yep. And you're talking about all these Calvinists that say that God can save the world anytime he wants to with his sovereign will and bring someone to life from death, and then you go, okay, so what are you doing? Yep. Where are you going? Like, where's the proof that you believe this? No, I just want to talk about it. I just want to talk about it. I just want to sit at coffee logical and tell everyone how it is. Have an IPA and sit around and feel good. Yeah, or I just want to get on X and make everyone feel stupid for not being Calvinist. After having a few too many IPAs. Yeah, exactly. And so there's that problem, and I just, it's the hypocrisy, it's the it's the arrogance, but it really particularly you see it in my camp with guys who will preach about um the sovereignty of God and the rule of Christ over every area of life, and that we need to press the crown rights of Jesus into every area of life, and they'll have podcasts and shows, and they'll pontificate and talk about all the ways that Christ needs to rule in this area and that area. And then when I bring a bill of abolition to their state, 20 minutes from their church, they don't show up. And so that it in my mind, that is the most detestable thing that I see in myself is my own hypocrisy. So wherever I see it in myself, I want to put it to death, and I genuinely mean that. I think as you get older in Christ, you just learn to say, I just want this to be done. I don't want, I don't want to be inconsistent, I don't want to be a hypocrite, I don't want to have this within me. When I view it in my own camp, people that will preach about the authority of Christ, his crown rights, his authority, and bring the law of God and the gospel of God into this category and that category, and then you sit them just, they're just sitting in their easy chairs, you know, and what we don't need is more armchair post-millennialists or, you know, something an armchair evangelist or armchair apologist. We need people to actually get out and do the work. And so what I despise in my camp is everyone who talks and writes books and and writes articles and does podcasts, but doesn't actually show up because I I see it as as pure cowardice for all these people to preach about the authority of Christ over every sphere and in every area of life, and then not to show up to the hard places. Right? So what one of the things that um I think that I really admired about and fell in love with someone like Pastor James, Dr. James White, was I was a young man, uh, 18 years old, moved to Arizona, and uh had already read his book uh and and I didn't know really anything about him except this King James only controversy, and I read this book, and someone told me, Hey, you need to know where you get your Bible from, read this book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I read it. I was like, that was wonderful. I go to the Mormon temple at 18 years old uh during the Easter pageant because I love to reach Mormons and I saw a sign for it. Mor Easter pageant, Mormon Mesa Temple, whatever. And so I went there by myself, just moved to Arizona, got no friends, no church, and I have my backpack with all these Mormon materials that I just thought maybe I'll get in a conversation. Let's go. And I come up to the temple, and there's this guy surrounded by a group of missionaries, Mormons, teenagers, it's a huge crowd around him, and he's just answering every question they're firing at him. And after he was finished, I was like, Man, that guy knows his Bible. And he knew church history, and he knew about it, Brigham Young. He was quoting their sources. So I walk up and I say to Rich Pierce, who's there, yeah, I say, Who is that guy? He said, That's James White. I said, The James White from the King James Only controversy? He said, Yeah. I said, No way. So what I I started. Saw in him early on that really had an impact on me from the very beginning of this walk with Jesus that I've had is a man that didn't just write books, who didn't just preach and teach on a podcast and do streaming audio and all that stuff. He was on the street corner, no camera, no audio. Nobody saw this but those who were standing there. And he was preaching Christ and the gospel to all these people on the street. He didn't just write letters to a Mormon elder. He was on the sidewalk every day, that pageant to preach the gospel to all these Mormons. They're throwing Arby sandwiches at him, they're vilifying him. And he just stood there with no lights, no camera, no action, just preaching the gospel to these people. And then I watched him going to debate the world's best of all these different worldviews, whether it's atheism, whether it's Mormonism, whether it's the watchtower. He's going after their best. He's purposely trying to find their leaders to take them down for the glory of Christ. And so I learned from my spiritual father in the faith, my mentor, that you had better mean what you say. And if you're going to talk all this big game, then you're going to also back it up and you're going to do something about it. So I had, thankfully, a great model in my life to show me that. And so when I see other guys who talk a big game but do nothing, I'm thoroughly unimpressed. And so you can have the best eschatological outlook in the in the world. You can talk all of this big game about the authority of Christ. But if I don't see you in the trenches, I don't have any respect for you in terms of what you have to say that you really believe it. I think I know you probably you feel this way more than me. I'm weary of people who use Christ for monetary gain and for fame and those sorts of things. And you've really been around that at the maximum. I look, unfortunately, with a lot of suspicion on myself and my own motives, and I always want to get them in check. But also others who, you know, start platforms or do journeys, follow my journey in Christ or whatever. I always look with suspicion to say, all right, I hope it's true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I hope it's true, but we'll see. Yeah. And and the will see part is the fruit. If you're gonna talk about the authority of Christ over all things, prove it. Totally. Prove it to me. Put something on the line. Don't just talk about it, prove it to me. Yep. And that's a real problem. So I would say when I think about the major problems, it's the arrogance, the haughtiness, and then the hypocrisy within my camp. So beautiful.
SPEAKER_00I love hearing you talk that way because it still shepherds my soul as I'm listening. I'm going, oh yeah, we have that. We have that. I gotta be careful of that. I'm thinking of our lists, and at the root of it are probably very similar things. Yeah. Self-centeredness, pride, ego, comfort, complacency. Like it just, it is so much easier to lean into the flesh and to to kind of you know how water always finds itself to the lowest point. It just finds its way there. I think we we all end up at these places because there's natural in the flesh in our carnality. How do you shepherd? How do you how are you shepherding these things in your church in the orbit of of the influence God's given you with apologia? Yeah. Like obviously conversations like this are helpful, but what are you doing? Like, what are you doing with the young guy who comes in? He's 24, 21, 26, and he's been watching you like you watched James White, and he's all fired up. And he's grown out his beard. If it's if it's red, he even he's even more like I am, I am Jeff Jr. Um, I'm here, I'm your mini me. What are you doing to shepherd those guys through this?
SPEAKER_01Um so I I do not feel in any way like I'm the model or the supreme example of you know, I got guys that I would point people to to say, read his books, listen to his teaching, I stand on his shoulders. I'm just I'm really borrowing from this guy. I don't really think I have many original thoughts, even. It's I'm I'm just I'm the result of all the people who have taught me. Um and so the fur I would two things, Coste, I would say one, the thing I've always wanted to do pastorally is to lead with the example of what I'm teaching. So I'm saying, hey, look, here's what God says about Christ's authority, here's what God says about the future, here's what we see in Scripture, how the apostles did this. And so you really need to we need to be doing that. Now if I point people to those truths and to that example and I'm not doing it, then they have nothing to follow. They have I I need to sh I know that my duty is to show them that these things are truly real, that this is the reality of the world, and this is true, and you have to follow this. So I know that my example as a pastor, as a shepherd, as I lead people, is to lead them by the example. So if I tell people to be bold for the gospel, I had better be seen doing it. And if I tell people I believe these things, they better see flesh on it and in me. Now they're not gonna see it perfectly in me. I'm not gonna fulfill it perfectly, but I need to have examples that they can put their hands on in front of them to say, My pastor showed me that. Look at my pastor doing that. So if I say stand for Christ in every realm, in every sphere, they better see some stuff of me actually doing it. Otherwise, what am I doing telling them to do it? Uh, and so I try to shepherd them by leading, by example. And like I said, I'm thankful to God by his grace, I and his providence, I end up in Arizona of all places, and then I end up at a sidewalk running into Dr. James White. Just the providence of God there. So I was able to have an example to say, here's a man who says these things and he clearly believes them, he does them. So I had that example, and I've always said that's what I need to be for others. Uh the second way I try to shepherd, I think, at this point and stage of my pastoral ministry, wisdom, teaching young men, young women, especially, uh, families, wisdom, yeah, wisdom, skill in applying these things, trying to trying to um train followers of Jesus, including myself, followers of Jesus in my own mind, to love knowledge, the knowledge of God. We want to know God. We want to know what's true about God. We want to fill our hearts and minds with that, but not just the knowledge of God, but we need to have the wisdom of God, the ability to apply that knowledge into the world, to be skillful in our living. So, um, could I, you know, example is you can tell people all you want all day that Jesus wins the world, he has all authority, he's gonna have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth, and you can do all the verses, and so get out, go now, fight and win. Go do your stuff. But if they're still lazy, right? They're still lazy, they're still arrogant, they're still prideful, um, they still have, you know, a problem with their tongue, they're still a divisive person. They're not gonna be effective just because they have a good eschatology. Wow, right? You can have all the best views of the future, and you're just not a wise person. You're arrogant, you're slanderous, you gossip, you get a horrible tongue all the time, um, and you're a lazy man. And so you're not gonna accomplish anything for the glory of Christ and his kingdom because you won't even work. So wisdom, applying those principles.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. Is that why you preach through not not at all? I love Apologia, we dear brothers there, but is that why you preach you've preached through Proverbs at Apologia to bring the wisdom, wash it over the church, yeah, so that you've got this, I would call it this double-edged sword of you know warriors who are wise, just to put it in manly terms, yes, you know, wise warriors just win some warriors even. They're just they're on it, but I I think you're that way. I know you're humble about it. You're like, I'm work in progress, but I I see that in you. I think it's uh a unique thing. I'm glad you're only 47 because there's a whole generation of guys that we need to see that, and by the Spirit's work and God's grace in you, it's happening.
SPEAKER_01Praise God for that. Yeah, and I've I've said, you know, because I I've um I've preached through uh Matthew, I've preached through Romans, various other things, but Proverbs is has been the the most challenging thing pastorally for I think for at least two reasons. One is you're you you have to preach this to yourself before you preach it to them. You're reading stuff and you're like, I gotta preach this this Lord's day.
SPEAKER_00Candy's like, I'm praying for you. I don't have this together yet.
SPEAKER_01I need to work on my heart in this. I'm a mess, or you know, and uh, and so I there it's it's difficult because you're preaching to yourself and and you have to do that as a pastor. Every passage you're in is first being preached to yourself, and so God's working on you. That's also been the greatest blessing going through Proverbs, too, is as I'm preparing this, these, these sermons for God's sheep to feed them. I'm being fed, I'm being challenged, I'm being changed. It's also difficult because it's Proverbs, and sometimes you'll have a section where it's okay, that's a consistent theme for that 18 verses, and then it's just this almost twitches, it almost seems random. Yeah. And then it goes back to consistent. And so you're you can't just preach through it, you know, like you're doing Matthew, like a narrative. I know. It's wonderful. Preaching through a narrative is sweet because it's the text is helping you along the way. And you're flowing and going. You're just going with the text. And and um you go through Proverbs, and you're, you know, one week you're on laziness, and the next week you're on something about the wife. And um totally. All the women are like, who who made who who's been acting up this week?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01No, no, it's Solomon. There's a lot of stuff you're doing about the wife the last couple weeks. I'm like, I'm just following the Proverbs. Solomon obviously thought there was an issue happening. So um, but yeah, so it's I I chose it because of course I I I want it for me, but I also want to uh help to raise up disciples that are actually concerned about how they live. Amen. And not just what they know. And I do see that as a dramatic issue within the reform camp. It's not like arrogance and haughtiness and all that is is not exist in other camps. Oh, it does. It's just that it's a real problem within a reform camp. And you can see that all the time. You'll see people leave the reformed, you know, perspective or reformed faith, and that's you know, take take the exit interview. Uh, what was the problem? And people are arrogant. Those people are so prideful, so mean-spirited, so arrogant. And it's just like, how can that be possible with a view that sees us as so small?
SPEAKER_00And God did it all, He's doing it all.
SPEAKER_01He did everything, and you are just a recipient of His grace, and you couldn't even move a muscle towards Him. He had to open your eyes, He had to chase you down, He had to accomplish everything. You are so unworthy, you've never chosen God in a million lifetimes. And uh, and then that makes us arrogant. How? How can you be arrogant with that perspective? So I've always just detested that within our camp, that kind of arrogance and that haughtiness over knowledge. It's weird because there's a balance there where it's like you had better know and you had better know rightly, and you better get it right, and you had better defend it and be bold with it, but you have to be balanced and not arrogant or abusive. So I I've always been warring against that within my own church body. Don't be like this, don't be arrogant. And so I did want to add wisdom to make sure that as a church body we're just grounded in skillful living. Because we have a if we have a church that loves the doctrines of grace, prizes the the grace of God and salvation, but can't stop backbiting, slandering, and gossiping, it doesn't matter how well you've articulated the five points and and the triune God of holy scripture, your church is gone in ten years because every single, even faithful church will have to deal with slander, gossip, lies, attacks, all that stuff's gonna occur. I mean, pastors have to deal with all kinds of stuff on a daily basis. You're gonna be dealing on one day with this great story of salvation and baptizing this whole family who came to Christ, and then walking into your office and discovering you've got to deal with calling the police because you learned about some sexual abuse. You know, it's a it's a mess. So you have to build a church that knows the truth, loves the truth, and can live the truth, and um and wisdom is is how to do that. You have to be skillful in living.
SPEAKER_00You just ministered to every camp, every Christian, every pastor, certainly to my heart. Yeah. Jeff, grateful for you, man. So grateful. Last question land the plane, take us home with this. What are some things we should be all the more focused on together? Post mail, pre-mail, a mail, different camps. What should we do with that?
SPEAKER_01I think, dude, what you just said. You said it at the beginning. I think that's the key issue. For me, that has always been it. That is it. Okay, we can we all disagree on these issues, and we also intersect with each other. I I've always said it's it's interesting because the premillennialist says things to the a millennialist that I sit back and go, tell him. Right. He's like, you can't spiritualize that. And look what the text says, and there's people living and dying here. That's not in heaven one day. There's dying in this, and I'm just like, tell him, tell him. And um, but then the a millennialist will say things to the premillennialist, and I'll go, tell him, tell me, tell them that the kingdom arrived, and tell them. And and I'll I'll be like, guys, come post mill, you get the best of both parties. Come home. You you get both of them. And so there's funny ways that we can navigate this and have fun together and even have agreements. There is agreement where I can go with the ah millennialist. Now I disagree with where you're going on this, but we do agree on some substantial things. I agree with you, and you need to tell that guy because you're right about that. But the the core thing is what you said. Christ is ruling and reigning, he has all authority in heaven and on earth today. If you're pre, ah, or post, doesn't matter. Matthew 28, 18 through 20 is in all of our Bibles, and we all affirm every word of it, all authority in heaven and on earth right now. So if we can gather around that truth and the truth that Christ has called us to make disciples of all the nations, whether or not you think it's wishful thinking is irrelevant, whether or not you think it's going to be accomplished completely is irrelevant. He commanded you to do it, and so go do it. And then when it comes to the teaching to obey, teach to obey. Even if you don't dis even if you disagree on elements of theonomy, we're not antinomians here. We do believe that Christ has a law, so teach him to obey his law. So we all agree with that. So all eschatological positions, even with their disagreements, can come under the same umbrella of Matthew 28. And that's where we have to say, you know, we're not allowed to disagree on this stuff, guys. And if there's a if there's a major social issue going on, pre-awe and post are supposed to look at it and go, Christ has something to say to that. We're in. Because he has all authority. And he has something to say to the drag queen story hour, he has something to say to all the gender confusion and and gender mutilation, he has something to say to an oppressive and tyrannical government that's telling Christians to stop worshiping Jesus on Sundays. And so it doesn't matter which camp you're in, we're all supposed to hold hands together and say, uh, united, we say he has all authority over you, Caesar. And what's interesting is the early church, what they were killed for, is that profession, that profession that Jesus is Lord and not Caesar. Caesar is not Kudios. Christ is Curios. He is the Lord. And so, and they were a mess too. The early church was a hot mess. Oh, yeah. It was a hot, hot mess of different things going on. They weren't even dealing with eschatological disagreements. They were accidental heresy. Yeah, there was like real heresy, all kinds of sexual perversion and sin. I mean, like, we're debating in a nice freezing room, by the way, because it's like you can hang me to your cot.
SPEAKER_00But they're well, what I always in filming is it's usually hot. Yeah. The lights? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Except these are softbox lights. They are. Yeah. It's it's a comment's up here talking, and I started to shake. I didn't know if it was a Holy Spirit or something.
SPEAKER_00What I wanted to do, what I wanted to do is freeze you. I wore a sweater. So as you deliver your position and I deliver mine, I sound really strong. And they're like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's a strategy. Oh, bro. So in the end, uh we are unified around that. And and no matter what, we should be on the same exact team. So we're supposed to be supposed to be fighting for the same things ultimately in in the same jails together. Let's go. Because you're in the same during COVID when people are being told to shut down, uh stop worshiping Jesus on Sunday. Uh it's wonderful that we're there were premillennialists, on millennialists, and post-millennialists that were being arrested and put behind bars. That's the unity because Christ has all authority. So in that in that point, we can have a healthy discussion in jail together about the details of the millennial reign of Christ, but we're supposed to be in jail together. Amen. So good, brother.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love you. I'm thankful for your ministry. Thank you. So thankful. Let people know where, again, the church, your church, you pastor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Apology of Church and the ministry online.
SPEAKER_00I'd say the best place to go, land is Apologiastudios.com. And how can people get involved be supporting End Abortion Now? Because there's advancement there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, endabortionnow.com. You can go there. You get free training, free resources to go save lives at the abortion mill. And you can also partner with us uh to when we when we go to different states um and we have legislation going, you can please come. Just be there, be present, and help us to have the legislators be courageous enough to abolish abortion.
SPEAKER_00Love it. We'll do this again. We'll find something else to talk about. I'd love to. Thankful for you. All right, brother. Thank you. What an encouraging conversation that was. And as I reflect on it, I am more fired up than ever before to keep making the gospel the main thing. And yes, teaching with conviction the things that I believe when it comes to secondary doctrines and rooting those beliefs in Scripture. But I don't know about you. I want to be gracious and respectful of my brothers who differ as I do what I believe God has called me to do. It's the mark of immaturity to lob unwarranted grenades at other people and their positions, to mock, to poke fun, and to demean other serious, biblically minded theologians and pastors who come to their conclusions as best as they can based on scripture. And the mark of maturity is to understand another brother and their viewpoint, even disagree strongly there, perhaps, but then reflect Christ in the midst of it all and have great gratitude for what God is doing through them. I pray that we would have more pastors that way, that I would be that way. I know Jeff wants to as well, but also our church members, the people in the body of Christ, the young guns, the guys who want to be in ministry, the people who love theology, the people who at times, even despite their love for theology, can ooze arrogance in the midst of high head knowledge, but low character and humility. Lord, begin with us, and certainly we pray that would spread to the body of Christ. Next episode, I'm talking about the rapture, tribulation, and the church. And no, I will not be giving you PTSD from your left behind nightmares. We're just gonna take a look at where those teachings find their biblical backing. And whether you agree or not, you're gonna understand. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing for the gospel's teaching. And don't forget, if you'd like to join our gospel patron community and help us raise our 2026 budget before the end of the year, we'd love to partner with you and see God continue to grow this ministry for his glory. Our goal, again, is to raise $400,000 by the end of this year, starting now. And so far, the Lord has already provided $65,000 of that. So we're off to a great start, but we still have a good ways to go. And if you're one of those newer folks to our ministry who's wondering what in the world we do this for, the reason we prefer to pre-raise so much of our budget ahead of time is to pre-plan our content, to strategize, film production, resources, and events, all of that without the financial constraints that come from a lack of prudent planning, just like Proverbs 6.6 tells us we're to go to the ant and look at how the ant does it and prepares in the season ahead. So that's what we're doing as a ministry, and it's the way we always do it in the local church and here at For the Gospel, which is a ministry to serve the church. For more information or to partner with us, go to for thegospel.org, click give, and I'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.