This episode is dedicated to the Chalice family as they mourn the loss of Nick Chalice. Our hearts are with them and every parent who experiences the loss of a child. It seemed fitting to move this podcast up in the schedule and release it early because it is an episode with Nancy Guthrie, who is no stranger to the painful loss of a child as she has lost two children. In this episode, we will talk about the pain that many parents endure, but also shift our focus to Christ and his coming resurrection. We are thankful in the midst of times like these that he is our hope, but also we mourn in pain with those who mourn. This is dedicated to you, Tim, and Eileen and your entire family. We love you guys. Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast. I am Costi Hinn, the host of this podcast, and I'm grateful today to be joined by a wonderful sister in Christ, a Bible teacher, and a woman of God who I greatly appreciate and my wife and I admire so much for her labor for the glory of God. Nancy Guthrie, welcome to the for the gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Kosti, I'm so excited to get to have this conversation with you and your listeners.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. I'm fired up. Let me tell everyone listening a little bit about her background. I'll kind of read you off the bio, and then we're gonna jump right in because Nancy has a lot of wisdom on some deep topics that are gonna bless you today. Uh, she teaches the Bible at her home church, Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Franklin, Tennessee, as well as at conferences around the country and internationally, including her biblical theology workshops for women. We've actually had the pleasure I got to meet Nancy at For the Church, one of the times where she was doing a workshop. They took away my pulpit. I don't know if you know this story, Nancy. They took away my pulpit, left me with nothing. Your room was full, and I was in the back, and I said, Can I at least get a music stand? It was like Nancy Guthrie's in there teaching, you know, get out of the way. And all the women were just rushing in there. So, funny side note story. She's the author of numerous books. Her most recent book is God Does His Best Work with Empty, had the pleasure of endorsing it, loved it. It was such a blessing, and I'd encourage you to pick that up on Amazon and Anywhere Books Her Soul. And then she's the host of the Help Me Teach the Bible podcast. And she and her husband, David, who she talked a great deal about even when we first met, uh, they are amazing partners in ministry. They host retreats for couples who have lost a child. They're facing the death of a child, and they co-host the grief share video series. And so uh she is a woman who speaks from experience and lives what she teaches, her and her husband doing incredible things for families who are going through intense grief. So, Nancy, um, I want to jump right in and maximize our time with you. You wrote the book God Does His Best Work with Empty. You've written and talked a great deal about the topic of death, of suffering, of trials, pain, loneliness, and beyond. Um why are you so um, well, why are you so helpful on the topic? But really, where does all that experience and passion come from personally for you?
SPEAKER_01Well, it mostly comes out of the experience of the deaths of two of my three children. Uh, my husband, David, and I have a son, Matt, who's 30. And then we also have a daughter, Hope, and a son, Gabriel, who were both born with a rare metabolic disorder that meant that their lives were very short and very difficult. They had a syndrome called Zellweger syndrome. And so they were each with us for just six months. Wow. And uh when we had hope, you know, the whole time I was carrying her, I didn't know that she would be born with this fatal syndrome. Um, and after we had her, then we knew, okay, we both are carriers of the recessive gene trait for that syndrome. And so we had a really difficult decision to make about whether or not we would have more children. And we decided to take surgical steps to prevent another pregnancy. And evidently it didn't work. And so I discovered a year and a half after Hope died that uh that I was pregnant. And then we went through prenatal testing and found out that child, then our son Gabriel, had the syndrome as well. So, you know, as a that experience, as you can imagine, was just prof profoundly shaping in my life. It it exposed some ways I misunderstood the whole purpose of the Christian life. It plunged me deep into God's word to try to understand it in a deeper, richer way. I mean, I I had, you know, I'd been in a very intense weekly Bible study sitting on the front row for about seven years at that point. But I tell you what, you go through something like that and you go back to the Bible and you're reading it through a new lens, you know, and everything sounds a little bit different, and certain things jump out at you that didn't before. And every song you sing at church sounds different. And so all of those things just um, you know, a lot, I think everybody, when they suffer costly, they all have the the question, why, right? Yeah, absolutely. And as people search out an answer to that question, why people go in all kinds of directions to try to get an answer to that question. For some people, why is a very philosophical question. You know, why does the world work this way, that kind of thing? Uh, for some people, it's a circumstantial question. They they they're looking for the answer to why this happened in their circumstances. And by that, they want to maybe they have a foundational sense that God is going to do something good with this. At least they want the story of their lives to bend toward an outcome or resolution that will make him look good. And so they're looking for a circumstance that they can look at and say, okay, that is kind of a good thing that has come out of this that that I can point to, that that's why this happened. My approach was a bit different. My search, Costi, was I wanted a scriptural answer. I wanted the I want the scriptures to show me why, you know, uh, why me, why, why now, why this, why again for me. And so as I went into the scriptures, I just I just went in with a whole new kind of energy and passion and and looking for an answer to that question, why? And I have, I think a lot of people will say that we can never get a satisfying answer, or maybe we can never expect that an answer to that question in this life. And to a certain degree, I get what they're saying, because maybe we can't that the scriptures aren't going to nail down for us all of the details about what God's doing in our suffering, because really he's doing many things. Yeah. And yet the scriptures reveal a lot about God's purposes in suffering and about why this world is the way it is that would cause uh cancer and birth defects and accidents and disease and deadly viruses and death.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I so I want to dig deeper into that. What are some of the scriptural answers you have found? And here's why I'm asking it's a loaded question, and even our listeners should know where I'm going with this. I come out of a background that had views on suffering uh theologically that were different. And so when I would endure something, I'd think, you know, all sorts of things. We have listeners from broad evangelical circles, different denominations, but we have a lot of people that came out of some pretty dark and deep, confusing beliefs as well. I've heard before in places I grew up in, you know, if you're suffering, you either did something wrong, so you upset God, or you don't have enough faith, or uh you're allowing negative people around you. Um, I've even heard in some circles, like for example, if it was like what you went through or what other parents have gone through and they lose a child, um, that, you know, a spirit of death is attacking your home and you need to cast it out. Um, and I've heard everything else under the abusive sun, if you will, like uh you have not given enough money to the church, or you didn't submit to the authority of the church. And so God is uh showing you that and you're not gonna walk in the blessing. There are a lot of confusing approaches to this, and it can make the blood boil. What are the scriptures, the bedrock foundations that you found that can be maybe even hard truths for us, but they begin to put us back on the solid rock of God's word?
SPEAKER_01Okay, you're making my blood boil a little bit too there, Russia. And and probably because as you mentioned in your introduction, my husband and I host weekend retreats for couples who have lost children. And so, as you can imagine, you know, those weekends, it's usually 10, 11, 12 couples come together for the weekend, and they've been surrounded by people who have said those things to them.
SPEAKER_00So this is this is legitimate. That's hitting home.
SPEAKER_01Said those things to them. And and some of the and and so then on the other side of that, after their child dies, they are so confused. They're angry with God because you know, something was presented to them in terms of what God had promised that isn't actually what he was promised.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01Or or they feel a huge sense of guilt. You know, I didn't pray hard enough, I didn't get enough people to pray, I didn't pray the right thing. And so I see the hurt and damage that does to people on the other side of it. And so, yeah, it it really does make my blood boil because I think it's so harmful to God's people. So, going back to your question in terms of what are some of the scriptural answers. Well, first of all, the most profound foundational answer to the question in terms of why of the suffering of this world is found in Genesis 3. In Genesis 3, we read about the sin of Adam and Eve. And God comes, he puts a curse on the serpent, he puts a curse on the ground, so we could think about the environment, the physical creation. He doesn't curse the man and the woman, but the curse is going to impact them. In fact, the the curse on the woman, uh, she's gonna have pain in childbearing. Now, we immediately think about labor pains in birth delivery, but it's so much more than that. Uh, it's the pain of birth defects, it's the pain of infertility, it's the pain of birthing and raising a sinful child in a sin-saturated world.
SPEAKER_00Wow, I've never thought about that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the the the anyone who's a parent, if you say to them there's pain in childbearing, anyone who's a parent would never argue with you about that. No, right? I mean, because as wonderful as it is to be a parent, it's agonizing at times. I mean, it's painful. And, you know, I'm a parent of a 30-year-old right now, and I can tell you still, still, you know, some of my greatest pain comes in that. So, you know, that never goes away when you have a child. So um, you know, it's gonna impact their relationship between this husband and wife. It's gonna impact what's at the heart of Adam's uh identity and purpose, which is his work in the world. And so, anyway, that that's that's the most foundational answer to the question why? So if you come up to me and you ask me, okay, Nancy, why do you think you've had two children who have been born with a fatal disorder? My answer to you would be because the curse of sin on this world has infected everything. It's penetrated all of creation, even into my genetic code. Wow. So that my genes don't work right. And that's the most foundational answer uh in terms of cause. Now, here's the thing about this question why, Costi. We're always asking the question why, like we're looking for the cause. Now, I love it in uh John 9. Remember John 9? Uh Jesus has just healed a man who's been blind from birth.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01I know you love this passage. I've heard you talk about it, right? So, okay, he's healed a man who's been blind from birth. And the disciples have a question. Well, they have an assumption, first of all, don't they? That's right. That's right. They have an assumption. Okay, we know why this happened. This happened to somebody's end, and we just want to know who to point the finger of blame at.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01And it's not a new assumption on their part because we've heard this before in the Bible. The whole book of Job is based on that assumption. That's right. That the way the world works is God punishes people with suffering in this life because of sin. And so it's it's the assumption of these disciples around Jesus, but it's so fascinating because you listen to Jesus' answer because their answer their question is about cause. And so the big thing is okay, when you hear Jesus answer, does he answer their question? Because Jesus' answer is um it wasn't this man or his parents the sin, but this happened that the work of God might be displayed in his life. That's right. Wow. So Jesus takes this question, why? And it's like he he takes the disciples' heads and he turns them away from looking back and being focused on the cause, and he he turns their head toward purpose.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's so good.
SPEAKER_01And he says, I've got a purpose in this. Uh I'm gonna put my glory on display for the world to see uniquely through what I'm gonna do in this man's life. Now, if anybody's listening and if they're listening carefully, then here's what they might be thinking. They might be thinking, yeah, but um the way he put his glory on display in this man's life was he got a miracle. And if you hear that story and you're someone who prayed for and didn't get the miracle, maybe you begin to think, oh, well, uh maybe that's not such a good story for me to be all that interested. Maybe he's maybe he said no to me, maybe he doesn't want to put his glory on display in my life. So we we have to come to this miracle story and so many of the other miracle stories in the gospel and recognize that Jesus, in his earthly ministry, he was constantly pulling back the curtain to show people what this world is going to be like when his kingdom comes in all of its fullness. Right now, in the gospels, we see the kingdom is at hand and he's healing. And but if we think deeply about it, that's right, he doesn't heal everyone. Uh the healings are, we would have to say they eventually, all those people eventually die. That's right. So the healing is not pervasive and it's not permanent.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01The healing is not, doesn't heal them of everything, right? So so we can't say that his life and ministry was all about healing. He certainly did a lot of it, yeah, but he seems to be wanting to show us something about who he is and where this world is headed and costly, isn't it such good news that this world is headed toward a permanent pervasive healing? That day is really coming. Um but we're not there yet.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01We're living in this in-between time, in between the time when his kingdom was inaugurated and he showed us some tastes and glimpses of it that we read about in the gospels. That's right. And in and and the day when he comes back, that's right, and that healing that he gave us tastes and glimpses of is going to be pervasive. It's gonna be the reality that we live in forever.
SPEAKER_00Amen.
SPEAKER_01But what's so great is that that pervasive healing, that uh the new creation that is to come, it's like it reaches back into the present in the here and now in my life and your life. But the thing is, it's primarily internal. The new creation is something going on internally in us, that that dead, spiritually dead Nancy and that spiritually dead costie have been made alive. Uh Paul writes about how you know the outer is wasting away, but on the inside we're being renewed. And so just going back to John 9:3, the reason we can be so happy when when Jesus says, when he says that this happens so that the work of God might be displayed in your life. You know, the work of God can be displayed in my life and your life too, in the midst of these things. And the way it gets displayed for you and I to have joy, genuine joy in the midst of incredible sorrow. I mean, that's something supernatural happens to be.
SPEAKER_00That's his glory on display.
SPEAKER_01That is his glory on display. When we trust him instead of doubt, his glory on display. When we have a sense of peace in the midst of chaotic circumstances, when we trust him, even though he hasn't explained everything to our liking. I mean, that's the the work of God in the interior of our lives being put on display for the world to see. And what a beautiful thing. And so if we go, why there's an answer. There's an answer to the question, why that his work in the interior of our lives that's just a foretaste of what is going to come, is being put on display for the world to see.
SPEAKER_00Man, how much more should that make the gospel prevalent in our minds and in our lives instead of viewing it as just a message or sort of a this this thing that I get, and then I'm gonna get all the other benefits that he has for me. So I'm gonna get the healing, I'm gonna get the the health and the wealth and the happiness, and my life's gonna be amazing because I have this, you know, this salvation now. It the gospel, the way you're talking, it makes me think of me as think of it as so much more, as this essential thing, because I'm not really living for the now, I'm living for the then, the what's to come. Um, do you think that people often overlook the gospel and then they're in their in our humanity, we have a proclivity to chase sort of the physical benefits and we miss the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I mean, what's so amazing to me is how this even in corners where we would never we would never say we believe in the health and wealth gospel, or in terms of some kind of gospel that we can have everything in the here and now that's actually been reserved for us later, is the way I would describe that. Um it has so infiltrated us through Christian media, through the books we read, and just through our modern American uh commitment uh to the good life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the pursuit of happiness, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, exactly. And so in many ways, we've kind of the gospel's been so corrupted in terms of what we understand the purpose of the Christian life is and and certainly what faith looks like. I mean, I think that's the greatest casualty, perhaps. Um, you know, just going back to my own experience, Costi, I so remember when our we had our daughter Hope, and I was like, we were a couple of weeks into her life. You know, we're kind of adjusting, we got to figure out how to take care of her. We're wondering how long she's going to be with us, and it's a very rare disease, so we don't, you know, really know what to expect. And I so remember uh one day the the secretary from our church calling us and saying, okay, we've put you on the prayer list, and we're asking everyone to pray and ask God to do a miracle to heal hope. And I said, Okay, that that's not how we're praying, but that's okay. And um, you know, people didn't know what to do with us, and and maybe even some of your listeners right now, they're just thinking, who is this guest you have had on here?
SPEAKER_00Because they think you're crazy.
SPEAKER_01Why like clearly doesn't have any faith, right? And um, you know, it costs it had zero to do with thinking that might that. God can't do that. I mean, God gathered up some dust and breathed into it and formed a human being. I mean, he can do anything.
SPEAKER_00I think if he wants to handle it, he could. You're right.
SPEAKER_01He can do anything. There were a couple of things that that were that that shaped that for us. One of them was our recognition that in the church, I think we're actually a little bit schizophrenic about some of these things. Like if you think about it, and it has to do with things we're familiar with and things we're not. So if in our church a child is born with an extra chromosome, in general, you don't find a lot of people praying that God will remove that extra chromosome, right?
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Because we're familiar with this. This is this is Down syndrome. And we know that it's written into every cell of their body. And that, and we celebrate that this is got who God has created them to be.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01And that and that person is not less than, right? And so with hope, she was missing some a subcellular particle in every one of her cells that she needed for life. And there were no children who you know live beyond a year or two with this syndrome. And so is it impossible for God? No. But I think the issue for me in regard to faith, Costi was just asking myself, what does faith look like in this? Does faith have to look like the way it is portrayed in so much of the church? Wow. Which is to uh create this huge movement and effort, begging, pleading with God to pray toward the end that I think is best.
SPEAKER_00That's so spot on. Like faith, like faith is demanding a miracle, faith is getting what I'm after.
SPEAKER_01Like I decide here's what's going to be best, and I get as many people as I know to pray toward that end. Almost as if the secret to getting God to change his mind is like that I get enough people to gang up on him. Which to me is like suggesting that God isn't already bent toward working out his best plans for me.
SPEAKER_00No, like we're gonna lobby him like people do with government or politicians. And if we get enough lobbyists and we make enough noise and we make enough of a frenzy that God has to, and we we we call out his promises and we're gonna bind him to his own word, right? Because God is held captive. I that is a powerful picture you just painted.
SPEAKER_01So here's the way I begin to look. Okay, so what's what is faith gonna look like for us?
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01And um maybe I can best articulate it. I remember, you know, a short time into Hope's life, finally everything had settled down, and I I took her up to the room that we had prepared to be her nursery, and I sat down on the glider rocker, and finally everything was quiet. And I remember sitting there and thinking to myself, okay, finally some quiet to really pray. And so I thought to myself, well, I'm gonna pray and I'm gonna ask God to extend her life to make it as long as possible. I remember thinking to myself, you know, I already think I've been pretty generous to God to accept it's not gonna be really long. Okay, and so, but couldn't I just ask him to make it as long as possible? And so it was like I began to formulate that prayer in my mind. And then I thought to myself, well, what if a longer life isn't better for her? Wow, or what if it isn't better for me? Could I be willing to pray instead for God to extend her life to exactly the number of days that he intends? Wow, and then to ask him for the grace I need for that to be enough for me. And so to me, I you know, I I think it actually takes great faith to say to God that if you don't heal me and if you don't heal the person I love, and if you don't heal the marriage or relationship, and if you don't supply what we need to save our business or save our house, I will still love you. And I will still obey you, and I will keep on declaring that you are good and that your intentions for me are for my ultimate good and your ultimate glory. I think that's what faith is.
SPEAKER_00Unbelievable. That as you're describing that, I'm thinking of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when they're told we're gonna throw you in the fire. And then they literally, we have this up on uh the the wall of Timothy's room, our two-year-old, he got diagnosed with cancer three months in. And up on that wall, it's sort of a paraphrase, but it says, and if not, he is still good. Daniel 3.18. And they basically say, Oh, yeah, you can go ahead and throw us, you can go ahead and throw us in there. Our God will deliver us, but even if he doesn't, and that I think of Job, you know, naked, I came into this world, naked, I go, the Lord giveth and he taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. Real faith, what you're describing, is actually being able to trust in the Lord in those moments. And what you're doing, Nancy, at least for me personally, and I'm sure for a lot of our listeners, is in a way, I'm not saying in a bad way, guilt and shame, but you the conviction of the Holy Spirit through what you're saying begins to expose what easy faith is versus true faith or deeper faith. It's actually easy to go into an auditorium and to work up a frenzy. It's easy to turn the music on, turn the hazer on, and start shouting that Jesus has to do the miracle. It's easy to show up in a stadium, it's easy to yell at God for what you want and get a frenzy going. It is true and deep faith to literally say, God, your glory, your will, your way, not mine. I yeah, what you've painted is just deeply impacting.
SPEAKER_01I mean, doesn't it if the goal of our life is to share in the suffering of Jesus and to to be in Christ and have fellowship with him, doesn't it mean then that we would experience learning what it is like to say to our Heavenly Father, not my will, but yours be done, knowing that his will is gonna cause us pain. Uh that's certainly the you know, the cup that Jesus drank. And yeah, you know, actually, I think it's you were mentioning earlier just that question you asked me so long ago before I started preaching at you, um, you know, talking about people uh you know suggesting that the scriptures say we shouldn't have to suffer. And you know, if we're really strong Christian, we won't have to suffer. And I just wonder what Bible they're reading, man. Um because I I you just can't find, you just cannot find a person in the scriptures, no, who who doesn't suffer, but most significantly in the scriptures, Jesus suffers.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01He he enters in. I mean, if our theology doesn't work for Jesus, we got something's wrong, right? That's right. But actually, you know, I I mentioned earlier that in our experience with Hope and Gabe, that one thing it did, it made everything in the Bible sound differently to me. And I remember a few months after Hope died being at Bible study, and we were in the book of Matthew, and I read that section in Matthew 26, where Jesus is in the Garden of Gethsemane. And he says to those disciples, he was brought in close there in the garden. He says, My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. And I remember that day, Classy. When I read that, that's one of those things that sounded different to me. And I and I I took out my pen and I wrote two words beside it in my Bible. I wrote, Jesus understands.
SPEAKER_02Whoa.
SPEAKER_01Jesus understands. Jesus understands what it's like for sorrow to be so heavy that it feels like it's pressing the life out of you. To Jesus understands the sick feeling in your stomach and the heaviness on your chest and the lump in your throat. And how beautiful is it that the the gospel presents to us a suffering savior who enters into the suffering of this life. We can we can when we suffer, we're always looking for someone who's kind of a safe person to draw close to. And by that we usually mean someone who's been there and so they can relate to it. And we discover in the midst of suffering that Jesus is a safe person to draw close to in the midst of our suffering because Jesus has suffered. And uh what what a privilege to draw close to him in the midst of his of our suffering.
SPEAKER_00Man, that is incredible. I yeah, that's in my mind one of those helpful truths that will drive people closer to the Lord in the midst of their suffering. Uh, Nancy, with that, take us sort of as we will kind of go from cruising altitude and start making our descent. Give us some practical wisdom, practical insight. Everything you've said is practical, but I'm kind of going into the how we interact. You brought up a safe person, safe place, et cetera. Jesus is ultimately while we're relating to one another. What are some things that you would encourage listeners not to say to somebody who's in the middle of suffering? People don't want to say the wrong thing, you know, those the platitudes like, hey, chin up, you know, it's it's gonna get better. And you're going, I I lost a child, it's like losing a limb. It's not coming back to to this world. I'm not gonna so you it's not gonna get better in a sense, in that way. Help us understand what to say, what or sorry, what not to say, and then on the heels of that, just take it away and and give us some truths that we can encourage people with.
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I wrote a whole book on this. I wrote a book called What Grieving People Wish You Knew and What Really Helps and What Really Hurts. Yeah. So uh if somebody really, you know, wants to grow in this way, you might look at that book. But in general, first of all, you know, some of it depends on the relationship that you already have with that person and the timeline of you know where things are in in regard to their loss. There may be some things you can say six months down the line that you don't say the night you go over to their house when that person has died. Um, but here's here's here's a couple, a couple of biggies. All right. One biggie is our assumption is that it's about what we say. And and what does even that assumption say? It says that we're doing the talking.
SPEAKER_02That's good.
SPEAKER_01And so uh it's a great gift to be so humble before someone's suffering that you actually aren't trying to fill up the awkward silence with anything. Um it's it's a great gift to have a friend who asks you good questions. Our most natural question is, how are you? And that's a little bit of a hard question because if you're in the midst of grief, it's like you have to give a report all the time. Yeah, yeah. And and like to judge I'm better than I was or whatever. And that's not so good. So to come up with a creative question, such as, what's your grief like these days? Because that assumes you probably are greedy instead of I think you're already past this right now, or or or that's the goal to get past it. I mean, we often act as if sadness is the big enemy. And we just need to get people past this sadness, and then we'll say they're doing good. Well, when you lose someone or something that's really valuable, it makes sense you're going to be sad and sad for a while. And the the value and love for that person is reflected in the depth of sadness. So sadness is not the problem. Grief is not the problem. Um so to allow to give someone time and space to be sad and be willing to just be sad with them and sometimes silent in it. Sometimes if you're if you're you have the relationship with that this person, and if you have the ability to be that person who's willing maybe to open up the scriptures with them to search out answers to some of their big questions. And let me tell you what the big questions are always centered around in the midst of this, the sovereignty of God.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01So was God in this? Did what was He was He asleep? Yeah. Um, so and those aren't easy questions to answer. And in many ways, in many ways, our vocabulary is too limited to actually uh helpfully and accurately uh put words to the sovereignty of God over the suffering of this world. And yet we can try because the you know those those things we we struggle to make sense. But um if if I'm going to to nail it down to a couple things, I first of all, do say something. The the worst thing is to ignore someone's loss. And as I say that, Costa, I have to tell you that in the midst of my own loss, I realized I was so humbled and saddened by realizing how often I had done that.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01That uh I thought to myself, you know what, I'm not close to them. They won't even notice if I didn't say anything, if I didn't even acknowledge it. And once we had our experiences with Hope and Gabe, I realized you realize everybody who said something to you or hasn't, or hasn't acknowledged it. And and you know, it was incredibly painful to me that for some people, my daughter's death didn't even merit a mention.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that just so diminished her as a person and her value. So, you know, say something, and and and as you say something, your goal is always to esteem that person's loss. If that's if you you're thinking about should I say this, should I not say this, run it through that grid. Does it esteem that person's loss? So, for example, that means you would never say, well, at least, and then finish that sentence. I mean, you're trying to get them to look on the bright side, right? But what does it do? It diminishes that person's loss. That's like, this shouldn't really hurt you that bad because you know, look at the bright side. So there's just a little grid to kind of help you in trying to figure out, you know, is this a good thing to say or bad thing to say? Does it esteem their loss?
SPEAKER_00That is absolutely brilliant. I I can't, it'll be hard to pick which kind of mountain peak in this episode will be most helpful, I think, for all of our listeners. There'll be different moments, uh, maybe moments of conviction. For for a lot of listeners, I think that last part was so helpful because people just don't know what to do. But everything you've mentioned, I think it's it helps us realize we go back to the scriptures. I mean, Job, his friends, they sat silently with him. Uh Job's wife said, you know, curse God and die already. You know, what'd you do? And then eventually his couple of friends are like, What'd you do wrong? You know, it probably was your fault. And then you've got Paul to the Romans saying, Mourn with those who mourn. And so um, you keep pointing us back to scripture. And so to sort of finish out here, what are some key doctrines? Our the tagline for our ministry and our podcast is sound doctrine for everyday people. You know, and and I'm probably guilty of this. We all are, we use a lot of big words and big concepts, and you really haven't done that. This has been so practical and helpful. If you were to bring the cookies down from the top shelf, so to speak, for all of us, what are some doctrines or theological concepts that you would encourage everyday Christians to go and study? You already said the sovereignty of God, so let's include that. What else or what aspects should we be digging into?
SPEAKER_01Resurrection.
SPEAKER_00The resurrection.
SPEAKER_01Resurrection. Uh I uh in the message, uh Eugene Peterson uh paraphrases, first Corinthians 15. He says it's resurrection, resurrection. Um part of what I'm saying in that it, you know, when we named our daughter Hope, I hardly knew what that word meant. I just liked the sound of it. And over time, people would always ask us, when did you name her? She had that name before you knew her diagnosis, or did you name her that after? And you know, they're asking because maybe we gave her that name, hope, as if we're hoping that this diagnosis won't be true. Yeah, you know, hoping for a different outcome. Now, actually, we had had that name in mind for her forever, but our experience with hope forced me in a sense, pushed me to figure out what hope really is. And our world uses that word hope, like cross your fingers for what you deem to be a good outcome. That's not how the Bible uses hope. It talks about hope all the time, but every time it talks about hope, it is centered on one thing: resurrection.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01Resurrection. And I think probably the most profound thing that's happened to me over these 20 years or so since hope's life and death has been filling out my understanding of what hope is. And for for that, for that, much of that has meant being immersed in a particular way of studying the Bible, biblical theology. And what biblical theology does is it looks at the Bible as one coherent, cohesive story about what God is doing in the world through Christ. So if you had asked me, Costing, for most of my life, what does it mean to be a Christian? I would say, you know, I make a decision for Christ, I take hold of him, and I try real hard to live from him, and then I go to heaven when I die. And that was, and none of those things are untrue. No, but it's so substandard, it's so diminished.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because what God is doing in the world, ever since that curse we talked about in Genesis 3, He has been working out his plan to put an end to that curse, the curse on creation, um, the and the impacts of the curse.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and there is a day out there that we are looking for. We we know that Christ ascended and there's a day coming when he is going to descend. Amen. And when he does, Romans 8 tells us that the all of creation is groaning, longing for that day when all creation will be set free from its decay and futility. And it's long for the day of the um revelation of the sons of God. In other words, it's longing for resurrection day, the day when you and I, when our bodies get called out of the ground, what our bodies probably they'll be just a bunch of dust by then. But God is going to remake them. He's going to fashion for you and me a body, a glorious body. Only one human has a body like that right now, Jesus, who is in heaven. But he's going to make for you and me a glorious body like his own. Our spirits, when we die, our body's going to go on the ground and our spirits are going to go to be with Christ. We're going to come back with him, and he's going to make us once again body and soul. Except this time, our bodies will be fit for living forever with him in a new heaven and a new earth. So I've been to some funerals where the funeral was all about the person and their life here and how happy we can be that they're like hitting golf balls in heaven or something like that, that aren't centered in the hope of resurrection. And our whole life, Costi, my life, your life. If we think about when I look out in the future, what's the next big event in my life? The next big event in our life is resurrection day.
SPEAKER_02Come on. I love that.
SPEAKER_01And that's what the Bible's message is centered on. If you if you read the New Testament, you just don't find all of this using God to get a good life here.
SPEAKER_00No, it's all eternal perspective.
SPEAKER_01It's all driving towards setting your setting your mind, your heart, your eyes toward that day to come when he's going to make all things new. And so if your question was, you know, foundational truth. Nurture your understanding of your longing for Christ to come again and make all things new. That resurrection day. That's the hope the Bible sets out in front of us.
SPEAKER_00That is the best note to finish on. It's the greatest note of our lives here in the life to come. Um, Nancy, honestly, thank you. Thank you as an understatement for being able to have you on for what you've shared. Where can our listeners get more of your resources? Um, sign up for workshops and dig in more with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it's a really creative uh uh website address. You're gonna love it. It's nancyguthrie.com.
SPEAKER_00That's easy. There you go. Awesome. Everything's there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. And so we are uh all week long. This podcast drops on a Monday, like all of our podcasts. Um all week long we're giving away copies of Nancy's uh book, God Does His Best Work with Empty. However, um, we also are going to be giving away the other book. Nancy, will you mention it one more time, the book that you mentioned that you wrote on the topic of helping others and we're gonna be giving away both those books. And then if you didn't win or don't win, um go ahead and go to Amazon or wherever books are sold and pick up those books, buy one for yourself, and definitely if you don't have those already in your church library or you haven't had those on your list of resources to give people when they go through times of loss, get them and give them out. Nancy, thank you again. Thank you so much, and thank David for letting us have you today.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much, Costy. I'm so grateful for what God has done in your life, what he is doing through your life, and what he's gonna do in and through this podcast. So, way to go.
SPEAKER_00Hey, we're looking forward to the resurrection together. Uh, I know I speak for all of us uh that are on our team or audience when I say we're blessed by your ministry. And this episode is gonna be a huge blessing. So share and give it a listen and make sure it gets into the ears of somebody who needs it. For more, go to furthegospel.org and subscribe to the podcast on Apple or Spotify and follow us on all the social media platforms Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We'll see you there, and we will see you next time on the For the Gospel podcast.