Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast. I'm Kosti Hinn, president of For the Gospel Ministries, joined today by our incredible team on our third episode here. Executive Director Brett Skinner, who pastors at Mission Bible Church in Orange County, Digital Platforms Director Reagan Rhodes, who is a jack of all trades and a digital genius. And then creative director, uh, the secret agent Bond, Justin Bond, uh creative and gifted brother of ours. We're thankful to have him on the team and all you guys here. A reminder to you for the gospel is a ministry that focuses on providing sound doctrine for everyday people. That's uh deep truths in normal language. And for loads of articles, podcasts, more episodes, to subscribe to our podcast. Uh you can go to Apple, Spotify, uh, all of those great podcast platforms and subscribe or go to forthegospel.org to check out articles, resources, and more. And then we are on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and we would love to connect with you on those platforms. But we're digging in today, big topic, deep topic topic, important topic. Uh, Brett Skinner, what do we got on the table, brother?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're I'm excited about today, man. We're gonna be digging into a question that I I get oftentimes after sermons on Sundays, people coming up asking the question, hey, I don't know if I'm saved. How do I know if I'm saved? You know, I'm listening to this sermon, everything that's coming out of it is is my my heart feels crushed. I don't really know if if I'm truly a Christian, I'm not living this life. And and what do I what do I do with it? How do I know if I'm a Christian? And I think it's a phenomenal topic to talk about today, and I'm so glad you guys are listening because oftentimes people go to their pastors for assurance of their salvation. Um but unfortunately, and I think most pastors take the stance, I take it, is we can't grant assurance of people's salvation. Only God's word can. And so what we want to do today is we want to take uh this topic and we want to dive in, open up scripture, and talk about what does scripture have to say about answering these questions. Do I know if I'm a real Christian? And as a Christian, I think 2 Corinthians 13, 5 is where we have to start. A lot of people, you know, ask the question, why is this such a big deal? Why do I need to talk about this topic? And, you know, a lot of people out there who have this kind of free grace mentality say, hey, you know, once, you know, once you're saved, you just kind of live life, keep doing what you're doing. But, you know, 2 Corinthians 13, 5 reads, test yourself to see if you are in the faith. Examine yourselves. Exclamation point, the NSB renders it. Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test? You know, that's a passage that we have to wrestle with as Christians. And I think too much today we we have so many people being converted at our church who are previously professing Christians, and it is only through the work and the ministry of the word that humbles their heart. And as the gospel is presented to them, as we talked about in the last episode, um, they see their conversion come forth. So, you know, I'd love to see uh Regan, I'd love to, I know you've got some experience in this. Maybe at before we jump into maybe the a kind of a top list of 10 items that we can kind of talk about, maybe help platform a little bit of the problem as you see it as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think, you know, uh this is personal for me because I I grew up in the church and I had had told, I had people tell me how I could have assurance of salvation, and I don't think it was the right way, which we're gonna get into. And that was look back on when you professed faith in Christ. And they'd tell you to look back. If you can remember when you got converted uh and when you said a prayer, then you're good to go. And so people would would tell you that's how you know you're you you're saved. Um the problem with that is like you said, Brett, we can't really, it's not our place to grant people assurance of salvation. Um, it is possible. That's one of the things the the hopes that that passage from 2 Corinthians uh you shared gives is you can have assurance. Uh where it becomes kind of dicey is you some people have assurance that shouldn't have assurance, and some people who lack assurance should have it, right? So what you don't want is to affirm someone who's not saved and say, oh no, you're good to go, when really they need to get on their knees and get right with God. Um and at the same time, you don't want to beat someone over the head who's languishing with a lack of assurance who really is in Christ but needs to be encouraged. And so that's why I think this is such a a hard topic, and it doesn't always have just a really simple answer for everybody, and you need to have some sensitivity in how you approach people who are wrestling with this question.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%. And I mean, the the God's word is replete with example after example of what it means to be a Christian, and that's why we can take comfort and have assurance of our faith, as you mentioned, um, Regan, is that we can go to God's word, we can go through uh verse by verse and understand what it means to be a believer. And so, you know, I think it'd be great. I know we have a we have an article on forthegospel.org. Um, or if you're um if you want, go down to the bottom of the podcast, we'll have it linked there. Uh, but we've listed out 10 ways in which we see scripture giving us assurance of our faith, the things that we can look for and identify in our lives and read through those. So why don't we kind of do it, we'll we'll do a round robin. We'll just go kind of point by point. Uh we'll we'll go back and forth. Uh, Cossi, if you want to take the first one, when we talk about this idea of how do we know if we've truly been, we truly believe and are saved, uh, Romans 10 9 offers offers a big piece to that. And that's that you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you trust in him by faith and faith alone. Do you want to take that one?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I I'll start out by saying this too as well. If you want to jot down notes, you're listening to this, or you're driving in your car, just file this one, really easy to remember. A great book of the Bible that you could read in one sitting that will challenge your conversion and and affirm it. Remember, God's word is the only thing that can give you assurance, and the Holy Spirit does that through God's word, um, is first John. You read through 1 John and you will be laid out either one way or the other. And I'm not talking about the charismatic form of being laid out, but I mean you will be flattened by God. One of our friends in an old church used to call it being floored by the Lord. It is humbled in two ways. Number one, you're either gonna go, oh my goodness, I'm saved, I do, this is me, wow, and you're gonna be brought to your knees in humility, thanking the Lord. Or brought to your knees saying, I'm not that. Oh, I think I'm one of those American cultural Christians. Oh, Lord, I repent, I'm sorry, and you'll be taken to the mat either way, so to speak. So, first John logged that one. On your point, Brett, first one, confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and trusting in by faith, this is essential. Um, Romans 10 9, believe in your heart, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and you'll be saved. Every true believer has to come to Christ and say, You're God. Your way is better, my way is bankrupt. I need you, you're it, I'm not. I trust in you by faith for my salvation. That can't even happen unless God initiates that work in our heart. Remember, he's the author of salvation. The Bible makes that clear. So he starts it, he writes the storyline, he takes over and does a spiritual heart surgery, causing us to be able to even confess, you know, you're it. I believe. I want to follow you. Um, my life is yours. And so essentially, number one, you've got to have that moment where you commit to him in response to what he's doing in your life. You can't be a Christian and say, yeah, Jesus is just a way. Yeah, Jesus is a good guy. Yeah, universalism is, hey, everybody gets in. Like salvation or heaven is like a mountain, and there's all these cool paths that lead there. And you could do a little bit of Hinduism and a little New Ageism and a little bit of Mormonism, and then dab a little of Christianity, and hey, we're all gonna get there. Let's kind of kumbaya together. Nope, doesn't happen. Jesus is it, and you got to confess him as Lord.
SPEAKER_00100%. And that last word really rolls us into the the second one, which is you know, once we commit and we confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, the second thing we have to do with confession is we have to confess our sin and no longer um being indifferent towards it. And first John speaks to that. Justin, would you be open to kind of expanding on that one a little bit?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's important to read first John as well. So first John 1 9 says this if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And then verse 10 goes on to say, if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. So it's important to confess our sin. We can't be indifferent to it, right? So if we have truly been converted, if our heart has truly been changed, we will hate the things that God hates and we will love the things that God loves. So if we hate the things that God hates, we are gonna hate sin. We are gonna hate anything that falls short of God's standard. And we're gonna see that within ourselves because we are born in sin. So when we see our sin, we need to make sure that we first of all acknowledge it. If we aren't seeing it, pray that God would reveal it, that we would see it and confess it. First John clearly says, if we do confess it, God will forgive us. It's a good word, man. That's a good word.
SPEAKER_01Would you say that people are used by God as well in that process? So we might pray for God to show us our sin. And let's say it was me praying, God, show me my sin. Where are my blind spots? You know, then Skinner comes out of left field and goes, Hey man, I've been thinking about you lately. I wanted to point something out in your life. You know, you you need to stop stealing. And and I'm going, who are you to judge me? And God's like, No, I just answered that right there. Your brother came and showed you your sin. That's an essential part of that, eh?
SPEAKER_02100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, good word, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And obviously we have to confess our sins, but I think one of the things, and a lot of people get caught up in this when they read through 1 John for the first time, is they get confused behind, okay, well, well, I I I live in a world that is that is full of sin. There's there's the carnal version of me. But how do I separate the difference between sin and then habitual patterns of sin? Now, Reagan, that's the third topic I think would be great for us to talk about. But you know, as a Christian, habitual patterns of sin should be decreasing and fading. I know 1 Corinthians 6 uh touches on that, 2 Corinthians 5 touches on that. But talk a little bit about the difference maybe between, you know, sin, oops, I messed up versus habitual sin.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. This is so important because I think that you can um get caught up with this. You we all, even as Christians, will continue to sin. I mean, sin continues to happen. When you become a Christian, you you begin this process which we call sanctification, where you're becoming more and more like Christ, you're becoming more and more holy, but you're not perfect. You're still going to stumble. And so that that word, that habitual, that's key. Uh the way someone put that to me one time is that it's about direction, not perfection. As you're examining your life, what's the trajectory? Are you becoming more and more holy? Um, are you are you seeing patterns where you're you're putting sin to death in your life, or are you still wallowing in those things? You know, in um 1 Corinthians 6, uh verse 11, it talks about the the Corinthian people, these believers, what they were like before uh they were in Christ. It says, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. So there should be a uh a before and after effect, um, because in 2 Corinthians 5.17, which you mentioned, therefore if anyone's in Christ Jesus, he is a new creation. The old is passed away, behold, the new has come. So you you are new, you you have um been transformed, but uh a way to put it is the the total transformation has not been completed yet. But what you want to be looking for is am I am I putting away those habits of sin? Am I killing those things that I was going back to over and over and over again?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's I mean, I think that's that nails it. And that even helps expand and and even commentate on on 1 John when we we see these passages that talk about we shouldn't have sin in us. It's this idea of these habitual patterns. So will we fall, will we stumble? Yes, we're in a sinful world and we're carnal. Um, but it's this idea of are we seeing decreasing patterns of sin in our lives? And I think that that ultimately leads to I mentioned this idea that I commonly have people come up after sermons and they say, you know, I I listened to that and my heart just feels torn apart. I don't know if I'm a Christian. And I think that's I always respond to that and I say, well, the fact that you're coming up here with that kind of heart and mentality is a good sign. And that leads us, I think, to the next point, which is there must be a desire to be obedient to Christ. And obviously we know, um, we obviously know with Judas that there's a difference between repentance um and and being remorseful over sin and and looking at sin and saying, I shouldn't have done that, versus looking at it and saying, Well, I'm gonna turn and go the opposite direction. Uh, but Cassius, we talk about this idea of this desire to be obedient to Christ, can you maybe flush that out a little bit more?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think uh James 1 pretty much nails it. I think verse 22, uh, that we're not to be merely hearers of the word, but doers. Uh there is an action that comes and a desire to be obedient. It's got to be present in the life of a believer. If you don't want to obey God, and I know we all have moments where we struggle in sin. And Reagan, you brought that up. I love what you said. The Christian life is about direction, not perfection. We're gonna have fleshly sinful, challenging moments. But deep within us, I think we will echo Paul and two chapters. If you want to write these down and jot them down, go read Romans chapter six and Romans chapter seven tonight as your quiet timer by you know, uh by your nightstand there before bed. Read those two chapters. You will see a man who says, Oh, the things I don't want to do, I do. The things I am supposed to do, I don't do. And then what does he say? Ah, whatever, grace will come. No, he says, Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? He's so thankful for the grace of God, but he knows in his flesh that sometimes uh we cheapen it. Or we say, Oh, because grace abounds. Well, should we sin all the more? He says, May it never be. So a desire be to be obedient when I sin. I I want to be confessing and using these other points and seeing those patterns in my life, and then saying, God, I want to obey you, help me to follow you. I don't just want to hear the word, I want to do it, and I want to walk in the victory that you've won, Jesus. So, yeah, that desire has to be there. If someone doesn't have it, it's a great opportunity, especially if you're talking with someone, to challenge them to pray, uh, to assess their own heart and their motives and say, Yeah, do you see how you don't even want to follow the Lord? Um so we don't want to be calling ourselves a Christian, which literally means Christ follower. Uh, to we're not a follower of the way if we don't want to follow his way. So big, big point there, Brett.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, and this idea of being obedient to Christ, you know it starts with being obedient to his word. And I think so much of the issues that we face today is people have have a low view of scripture. And if you have a low view of scripture, it leads to a low view of God. And if you have a low view of God, it leads to this this idea that I don't have to respond in any type of obedience or in faith. But the moment we do understand that there's this desire to be obedient to Christ that comes with salvation, what that does is it drives us into the word. And one of the things that as you go through, especially in the New Testament, you can't escape the one another clauses. The one another clauses are just all throughout the epistles. I believe there's there's 59 of them. Um but if you go through of the 59, like I'm exaggerating here, but like 50% of them have to do with loving one another, right? Show hospitality towards one another, admonish one another. And that leads us to the next point, which is our our love for others is ever increasing. And we see that um most explicitly in in 1 John, but our obedience leads to loving and to actually fulfilling what we see in God's word. You know, Justin, I'd love for you maybe to elaborate on that. Um, you know, what is this idea of our love should be expanding um and increasing towards others?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think the the perfect example we see first and foremost is Christ. We we see the perfect example of him loving people by um going into their lives and and sharing the truth with them, right? So if we love somebody, the perfect way of showing love for them is telling the truth, sharing the gospel with them if they don't know the gospel. Um if they do know the gospel, it's loving them with your actions, right? We can say we love you, but how do we show that? How how is what is the fruit of our love? It's action, it's servanthood, it's it's really um serving them as much as we can um in in so many different ways. So I think servanthood is is a great way of loving people. But I think the biggest thing I've seen, at least in my experience, is when you have friends, coworkers, or whoever it may be who don't know Jesus, uh sharing the gospel to them is not loving in their eyes. So what do we do with that, right? I've been told it's not loving to tell somebody that if they don't repent and believe in Jesus, they're gonna go to hell. That's not love. When in reality, that's the most loving thing that you could probably do for somebody is share the truth with them. Right? We kind of see the example of well, if a blind man is walking towards a cliff, are you gonna stop him? Or is the loving thing to do just let them walk off the cliff? Yeah. No, they they don't know the danger that they're in. So the loving thing to do is to approach them in love, yeah with the right tone, um, not just be aggressive with them, but lovingly share the truth of the gospel, going back to what we were talking about last episode, but sharing the the true gospel with them is the most loving thing that we could do. Amen. Spot on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And and part of that, I mean, just to elaborate on what you said, you know, first John uh 3.18 says, Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And you know, I've always taken up until till COVID, I've always kind of looked at this this verse, and in my mind, I was like, okay, like it's this idea of let's not, it's this idea of deed and and and verbiage, right? Like, don't just say something, actually do it. And I kind of left it there. But it says in deed and in truth. And part of being a loving Christian is is speaking truth and being truthful because that is love. And if somebody's on their way to hell and damnation, the most unloving thing we can do is to withhold the truth and not to go after them and love them. And so I love I love what you had to say there. Well, let's go on to the next one. So I we we talked about this idea of loving. Uh we talked about this idea of desiring to be obedient to Christ. Um the next one's kind of a natural one that grows over time and it's hunger for God's word. Regan, what do you what do you have there, buddy?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, um, I think about it this way. People people frame it as they say, hey, you have a if when you're saved, you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, which is true, right? Now, if you have a personal relationship with somebody, you want to know things about them. You know, if somebody comes up to you and says, you know, maybe it's a young man and he says, Oh, I'm I'm really in love with with Susan, you say, Oh, that's great. Um, what's her last name? Not sure. Uh what kind of things does she like? Oh, I I'm not, I don't really know. You know, what does she even look like? You know, you and if you express no desire to actually know those things about Susan, I would wonder whether you really love her. And so genuine believers, uh, they hunger to know who God is and what he likes and what he desires of them. And you find that in God's word. Um, it says in 1 Peter 2, 2, like newborn infants long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation. And so that genuine love for Jesus, um, which is you know gonna happen if you you're truly converted, that's gonna result in a desire to study his word, to know what he's like, to to know God, because that's how we hear from him. Uh so that's a mark of a true believer, and uh one that you should see in your own life if you know Christ, that you want to open his word, you want to hear from God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's just going to continue to mature us, right? The more, the more that we take in God's word, the more that we understand what his will and what his ways are, the more that we can align ourselves to his will. In his ways. And you know, one of those is, you know, I think I just finished up a study on Matthew 28 and going into really the Great Commission and and really trying to unpack a little bit more about that. And uh, you know, one of the things as you look at that is, you know, the key verb in in the Great Commission is to make disciples, and and and the three participles of that is we must go, we must baptize, and we must teach them all that the Lord has commanded us. And that first part, go, I think, is one that as a healthy church, as a healthy believer, a lot of time is missing from people's lives. And that's being filled with a desire to see other people saved. Now, Cassi, I know you you're you're you have the heart of evangelism, and and you know, I I know we all are to have a heart of evangelism, but I would go uh further to say that you may be gifted and have the gift of evangelism. Would you just mind touching on that one a bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I would summarize by saying people who have been reconciled to God want to see other people reconciled to God. Uh you've been given the greatest treasure ever known to this universe after original sin, which is the ability to be reconciled back to God, which original sin ruined. We have to, if we're truly saved, uh, have some sort of desire. And I think it births out of some of the other ones. Like if I really love people, Justin said it, I want to speak the truth to them in love, like Ephesians 4.15 says. Or uh, if I want to be obedient, well, one of the things I need to do is uh go baptize and teach. And so uh being filled with a desire to see other people saved is not, for some of you who've maybe heard this, some new believer, overzealous little phase. You know, some people will pat you on the shoulder, oh, you're so cute, telling everyone at the grocery store about Jesus. Oh, don't worry now, that'll pass, and you'll get to the you know, more mature things and you'll calm down a little there, Sister Susan. Like, no, Sister Susan, you go hard every day of the week. You don't ever stop. You be zealous for the gospel. That's why this ministry is named for the gospel. There are a lot of things we're gonna do better in heaven. You guys know this. We are gonna sing better in heaven. Everybody who can't sing, you will have better voices. We are gonna have fellowship with Christ and one another better in heaven. We are gonna eat better in heaven, like the marriage supper of the lamb. We are gonna travel better in heaven, we are gonna do a lot of things better in heaven. There's one thing we will not do better in heaven, and we won't do it at all. It's evangelize. We get one shot at this, one life to live. We are, as the church, plan A. God doesn't have plan B. It's plan A. We are salt and light. We are the ones who go out. So we want to be filled with a desire to see people saved. And one of the things that we can point to is Paul's ministry, 2 Corinthians 5, on the heels of 17, which we brought up earlier about being a new creation, the old being gone, the new has come. We also see this phrase or this uh passage thrown around a lot. We're ambassadors for Christ. Well, what do ambassadors do? We're bringing and been given a ministry of reconciliation. And so he became sin so we could be uh absolved of our sin, completely washed of it. He knew no sin, he was perfect, and he's given us a ministry of reconciliation. So a mark of true conversion uh is that you desire that. That is not some new convert zeal. And last exhortation here out of love. We do well as mature long-term Christians and pastors to get shaken up a little bit once in a while. And remember, like, quit going about your business and just going to Target and then walking out. That cashier is a soul. That parking lot kid who's putting all the carts together, he's a soul. The lady carrying the bags down the street is a soul. And I I hate that the charismatic world and the Todd Whites and the NAR types, they're so good at going out on the street and loving on people. And I don't believe that they all have the full truth and the full gospel and the accurate relaying of that gospel. So um let's take some of that back and let's be a little crazy for the gospel and for Jesus. I you said I'm gifted for evangelism, sort of, but I that's great. Um, but I I always like to push back and go, yeah, but we're all we're all called to be crazy a little bit beyond our comfort zone.
SPEAKER_02I think that could be another episode of how we go about sharing the gospel.
SPEAKER_01That'd be fun.
SPEAKER_02You know, we could talk about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, we gotta we gotta get uh there's a buddy of ours, actually Tony, one of our contributors, and and uh a great pastor and a friend. He I don't want to tell all his stories for him. I always do that already. Um I'll tell this one though. We gotta get him on here. So they there was a strategy, they were going to the same checkout line at Trader Joe's every week so that his wife could target the same cashier during the same time. I mean, that stuff it brings you to tears because you think, what a strategy. I mean, that's the way to go. So anyway, well, we should talk about that sometime.
SPEAKER_00I mean, talk about strategy, and and I don't mind planting here for a little bit, but I mean, COVID is the the ultimate evangelist guide to reach their neighbor. And I think what a lot of people realize is that sounds counterintuitive because everything that we're getting is, you know, lock down, stay inside, wear your mask, stay six feet apart, which it you know sounds very anti-evangelistic. But the reality is, and I don't know about you guys, but but I've met almost every person in my neighborhood because of COVID, because they're finally outside. They they they need that fresh air, they don't get to go to work all the time, and so they're outside playing with their kids. And I mean, we just had a block party uh two weeks ago with 20 of my neighbors. We have never done that. I've lived in this place for six years, and I've gotten to know maybe three or four of them over that six-year period, and I got access to all 20 of them, and we're hanging out, we're having pizza, we're having a good time, and we're getting to talk about their life and the thing, and we're being intentional with those relationships. But come on. This is the first time in my life in this in the last eight months that I'm saying, praise God for COVID. This is amazing. I'm getting to meet so many people, and I'm getting to share and evangelize with them and and love on them. Um, so use this time, take advantage of it.
SPEAKER_01That Brett, that's proof that miracles still happen today because Orange County, you people might think you're a bad neighbor because six years have gone by and you've only met four people. That's not your fault. That's Orange County, California. People do not engage. So miracles still happen. 20 people are now getting together in an Orange County neighborhood. Uh that's evidence of that for sure.
SPEAKER_00For sure, for sure. And and you know, not only do we have obviously we have love, um, love to see uh others save, but that moves us into one that I think we're all very passionate about already, and that's being churchmen. We love to serve the body of Christ. And and Justin, I'd love for you to talk about that. Obviously, we're here, we we we're doing this in part because we want to support the local church and and be a part of that. But what is that as a as an individual believer, being indwelled with the Holy Spirit, um being saved, what does that drive in our minds and relationships to uh loving and serving the body of Christ?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. I I mean we're all pretty passionate about this one, um because we're all local churchmen. So, but I think kind of going back off what we talked about a couple episodes ago, Jesus loved the church so much that he died for her. So if the church is that important, then we need to also see it as important. So a part of it is being a member of a local church and also serving the local church. So as Christians, we're not meant to be isolated or alone. We're meant to be a part of a community, a body, right? We Paul's very clear about that. So we're a part of a a part of the body. So let's figure out what role we are and let's execute that role and serve in that manner. Um, the church doesn't just happen. Church doesn't just happen. There's volunteers, there's people who serve, whether wherever it is, it we we have to be servants of the church. So being a member of a local church and serving that local church is so very important. And I think in our culture, it's something that is very unfortunately, you know, it lacks. It's it's not very common.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, people don't want accountability, authority, or to be held to something and being a part of the church and serving others. You you're gonna lose something. Oh, yeah. It's gonna cost you.
SPEAKER_02And it's not just about I'm gonna go to church, what can I get out of it? Oh, that's good. No, our mentality needs to be we're gonna go to church, how can I serve? You know, we have this culture of give me, give me, give me, instead of how can I give, give, give. Um, it's it's not a show. We're going to worship the triune God um and we need to serve one another with the gifts that he has given us. So instead of taking and taking and taking, we need to figure out how we can give um and truly be a part of the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And especially in this time, I mean, we with COVID, one of the downsides to it, the positive side is we're meeting our neighbors. One of the downsides to it is so many churches have capitulated to online church only. And I think that's one of the things that I know as a pastor, we've in counseling with people, so many people are are feeling depressed and this inability because they cannot use the God-given gifts that we see in Ephesians 4, that we see in Romans 12, that we see in 1 Corinthians 12. We've all been given a gift to be used for the building up and the edifying of the church. And so this online, this idea of online church is an oxymoron. The church is meant to gather and to be together, and we're to be, as you said, Justin, looking for ways in which we can edify, build one another up in the knowledge of Christ through the specific and unique gift that God has given to each and every one of us. And if you're listening today and you you're a professing believer, you have been given a gift. You need to find a place to use that, and you use that through the local church.
SPEAKER_02I think there's something to be said too, especially since we're in the midst of uh COVID, right? That our online church is not church. I mean, I think we we need to say that, right? If you are sitting at home, and obviously there's circumstances, right? But uh generally outside of COVID, if you are content with just watching church online, um, there needs to be a conviction there of of not doing that and being a part of the local body because that's church. Online is not church, yeah. You don't get the means of grace.
SPEAKER_01I would agree completely with this. And for our listeners, you know, you're you're we're three episodes in and you're observing how this ministry is and what we do. And I think you're all familiar with the way that our churches and us as individuals have been going and been preaching and serving and would believe anyway. But in a sense, what you're referring to is not somebody who's at home because they're sick one weekend using the online experiences, the ability to stay connected. That's just good old. I mean, there were tape ministries back in the day for sick people who were shut-ins. What you're referring to would be sort of this new wave of church online. Um, you've seen some big name people do even just online church now, it's all online. And um, and that's kind of the new fad. And I think that lends to this culture. Uh, you see this a lot now uh hitting the news. People have robots now that they have relationships with or virtual girlfriends or boyfriends. You guys see that stuff online? It's crazy. You can now detach yourself from society, uh, you can stay and just do your own thing, you can order your groceries in, you could order Amazon all day long, and you're completely disconnected. I totally agree with you. It's uh it would be an enemy strategy, a lot like our adversary, the devil, to seek to isolate people as much as he could, because then they can't do the 50 plus one another's Brett brought up earlier. It's impossible. Yeah, how do you now you could still like when we're we're unable to meet or we go into house church mode because you know we're all being persecuted. I get that. We'll find ways though to always be the church, and it will always involve being together. Yep, that is a biblical concept. So I echo what you're saying, and yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I could I could go on about the church and the online experience, and yeah, we need to have an episode on that.
SPEAKER_01I think it could be evangelism. We got evangelism, we got online church. Here we go.
SPEAKER_03Here we go. I mean, it's funny because we're we're we're media guys, you know? Like you would think we'd be the ones who would want that.
SPEAKER_01We don't want that. Yeah, no, we want to do this because we're invading your commute and then or wherever you are, or you're you know, your small group, and now you're talking about it, and then we're you're gonna be driven to go to the church, not stay online.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I think it goes into the next point. If if we're not a part of a a biblical local church under the oversight of elders, how can we experience discipline of god the discipline of God?
SPEAKER_01He's going, Brett. He's taking it. He's fired up. Brett, you do it.
SPEAKER_02I don't want to order back to one of those things, man.
SPEAKER_00It is. That was Tom Muruski there.
SPEAKER_02Tom, Tom Brady's like, I'll take it.
SPEAKER_00Well, no, I mean, I, you know, speaking of a football, I'd love to, I'd love to dish this one over to you, Cossi, because there's a reality, right? Um, there's an there if if Jesus didn't come and say, I'm gonna give you everything in this lifetime. You know, the promises he made were in the coming lifetime. But as a Christian, if we are truly following Christ, the reality is the world hated Christ, the world is going to hate us, the world persecuted Christ. They hung him up on a cross, the world is going to persecute you. Those are actually commands that are given to us. And so, you know, Cassi, I'd love for you to touch on this one because I think you know, this concept is actually antithetical to what you were raised with and what you you were familiar with growing up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you if you're a true believer, okay, your life is not gonna, you're not gonna have your best life now and experience, you know, health and wealth and happiness, and you're never sick, and you know, everybody says, like, I'm praying a hedge of protection around me. We used to say, Yeah, the flu's going around, it's going around me. And we do this circle around our bodies in Jesus' name. I'm anointed. Um, I I saw one lady recently shouting online and some video that went viral, and she's like, Not today, devil. There's a bloodline around my house, there's a bloodline around my hell, there's a bloodline around my mares, there's a bloodline around my city. Look, you can pray all the bloodlines you want. You're gonna get something. It's coming. This is a fallen, broken world. And the bloodline, if you will, or or the blood of Christ saving you and redeeming you guarantees not that you're gonna experience a bunch of health, wealth, and happiness all the time, but that you're actually gonna experience the sanctifying work of God in your life. And that's gonna come through discipline, correction, rebuke, exhortation as well. And so for those of you that you're hearing this and you're going, Man, I just feel like I can't do anything without God course correcting or thwarting my plans or exposing my sin. You are a child of God in that sense, biblically. Um, the Bible says in Hebrews 12, he disciplines those he loves. You're not an illegitimate or invalid as a child. You are one of his own. His correction is done with love. Um, like a faithful father, he disciplines his children, and only a cruel child, or a cruel parent rather, lets their child run wild and have all that they want. That is a false version of the gospel and a false view of your heavenly father. He is not content to let us run wild, continue in sin, and have all that we want. He is a faithful father who guides us into what he wants for us, and that's gonna sometimes mean using his shepherd's staff, if you will, or the quote unquote rod of correction, spiritually speaking, or uh for our lives to help us and expose us on purpose. So don't view the discipline of God or plans being stopped or doors shutting or even conflict in your life as God is angry and he hates you, or you must, you know, need to give more money to Joel Osteen. No, hear me. But respond to it like a child to the correction of God and seek his truth in his word. Uh that is evidence of what a true believer does.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Amen. And there's a level of perseverance that comes with that. And you know, really that I think that leads us to to our last one, right? There's this idea of when we're filled with the Holy Spirit, there's there's fruit to be born. And um, you know, I could I could split this in in a number of different ways, but the specific part of that, Reagan, I'd love for you to maybe expand on a little bit is this idea of as believers, there's fruit to be born, and there's fruit of the of the spirit that we see in Galatians 5. And maybe maybe help our listeners understand what is that, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You know, scripture is full of like all these great, wonderful metaphors that help us understand um what it means by what it says. And one of those is talking about fruit bearing. Um my my son has this little book about the fruits of the spirit, and it's got like a pineapple for love and like an apple for, you know, and you go through and it's it's cute. And he thinks he says ball for each one of them. He thinks they're all balls. But the sometimes if you don't really think about the metaphor, you don't know what it's what it's trying to get at. What why does it say in Galatians 5, the fruit of the spirit? Which if if you've been in the church for any length of time, you've heard of this verse. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. Why does it say fruit? It says fruit, because that is what you bear naturally. That's what that is what someone who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit produces. It says in Luke 6, 43, for no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit. And so believers, people who are saved, your your life, uh just as we talked about um many points ago, it it's it's a direction thing, but your life is going to be bearing fruit. You're going to be doing those things and exhibiting those virtues, which are the marks of the Spirit's work in your life. Again, not to perfection. Uh perfection comes in the end. Eventually we will be totally perfected when we are with Christ. But as long as we are a tree, as long as we're here, we should see those fruits being produced in our life and in greater numbers. Uh and that will persevere. We'll continue to do that all of our lives as Christians. We won't, we won't stop bearing those fruits and suddenly and suddenly fall away in some dramatic way. Noah a true uh believer is gonna bear fruit for the spirit and they're gonna persevere to the end.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Amen. Well, those if you guys are interested and want to get more information on on some of these topics, you can go to forthogospel.org or go to the bottom of the the podcast to get a link to that. Now, brother Cossi, do you have any any closing remarks or is there anything that we missed that we that may be helpful uh for us to cover before we wrap this thing up?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I think that you should talk to your pastors at your church if you're struggling with this issue. Um I think you should read the article first, do them a favor, read the article, get a good sense of what the Bible teaches and and what we've talked about here so we can support you in that. Um maybe, maybe grab a booklet or go to you know, Grace to You, GTY Dog Order or something and get the little booklet. Is it real? You know, look at some resources, um, and and then go talk to your pastor and circle the ones that you're not seeing, be honest, seek out accountability and wisdom, and then allow them, because they'll know you best. We're not your pastors, unless you attend our church, one of our churches, in which case, come talk to us. We'd love to talk to you about this, and get a good idea of what their assessment would be. You know, they may agree with you and say, Yeah, you know, have you noticed these patterns? I mean, we have as well. Let's pray through that and talk through that. Um, that would be what I would say. And um, above all else, go to your decent prayer and seek the Lord. Yep, definitely. Well, if uh another thing to add to Brett, if you're searching for this article on for thegospel.org, feel free to use our category feature. Just click on categories. We have a ton of them. This will be under salvation. Uh, this has been another episode of the For the Gospel podcast. For more, go to forthegospel.org. Subscribe to this podcast on Spotify, on iTunes, your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We would love to connect with you there. And uh, based on this episode, we've got some really fun ones ahead, and so we'll keep bringing it and serving you guys, your churches, uh, as much as we possibly can. Until next time, we'll talk to you then.