Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast. We are all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Costi Hinn. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe, follow on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. And if you have social media, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube for resources that will equip you to live the Christian life. Today I've got the great privilege of interviewing one of my dear friends and a man that I get the privilege of pastoring with at Redeemer, Dale Thackra. Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here, Costi.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Sort of a teaser on today's episode, what we're going to talk about is something that is near and dear to our hearts and especially to Dale's his wisdom is going back some two decades in ministry. But also one of the fun things about our podcast, and with him being an FTG contributor, is I get the joy of having him about five feet from my office door. So at any given time, uh, as long as he's not in a serious meeting, I can just knock on the door or punch the code in and go right in and solicit this sort of wisdom from him. And so I wanted to ask him questions and have him come on and share so much of what we get here as a staff and so many uh get under his ministry as a pastor. So, Dale, let's jump right in. You're a pastor. The joke around here is you're the old guy, you know, one of the old guys on the team. Yeah. You know, on a more serious note, though, uh that comes with a great deal of wisdom, pain, experience, mistakes. As a pastor at our church, and just as a pastor for over two decades, um, you run into this issue a lot in the counseling room, in leadership. Could you uh define what the fear of man looks like, or the fear of people or over people pleasing? Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01So the simple definition would be um anything I do outside of the will of God, meaning um I'm doing it for acceptance. I'm I'm responding or saying something in a way that's going to um garner me favor with somebody. Um, and also it's it's it's outside of God's will. That's that's the thing that's the most important to understand when we're having a fear of man conversation. Uh when we when we act or do something that's outside of the will of God, in order to gain some kind of favor or some kind of position um with a boss, yeah, with a spouse, with a coworker, uh it doesn't matter really the who. The motivation is that I'm I'm not going to trust God right now. I'm going to trust myself and I'm going to survey the situation and respond accordingly for what's best for me.
SPEAKER_00That's good. That's such a good definition. Because right away I think if someone's sitting in a situation and they're like, I'm not people pleasing, I'm just doing what I'm told, or I'm trying to do my job, or I'm this or I'm that. The when you start looking deeper at why I'm doing this, and then more than that though, what does God say? And man, you just hit on something. I think that's a long, long uh rabbit trail into the heart of people. So examples from you. Would you be willing if you if you're okay with this, give me an example where you have failed in this area? Because pastors struggle with this, too. All people do. You said that.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um, and maybe an example of how you've seen victory in your life, some of the challenges you've overcome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, especially young. Um, I want to, I'll just stick with my Christian life. So early in my Christian life, um I I wasn't raised in the church. So I didn't really know how to act in the church. I didn't really know uh what to say, how to say it, when to say it. Uh so I really fell victim early into what I would call kind of a a pha or faux, however you'd um kind of deference, yeah, especially to pastors. I would I would give so much deference to pastors, um, sinfully so. Even even when I saw pastors doing things that they should not be doing, saying things that they should not say, I, out of fear of either upsetting them or even in my mind then upsetting God, yeah, um, I would just be quiet. And that was that was purely for self-preservation because I had a desire even early in my walk uh to become a pastor. Uh, I didn't ever think it was going to necessarily happen, but there was something inside of me that was like, I don't want to push right now, I don't want to push on this pastor because it might hurt my chances of gaining favor with him to be seen as potentially pastor material. So I would just keep quiet.
SPEAKER_00That's really good. You saw me jot down some notes here while we're doing this together. You just brought to mind the danger of people taking that approach. Do you think that at times our fear of man issues and the people pleasing or the gain of pastoral favor even contributes to leadership abuses and that there is an element we don't need to beat our pastors into the ground and give them a tough time over every little issue, but at times our desire to get something from them even enables them to continue to do whatever they want sometimes in these hostile environments as a church. Yeah. When really, if we weren't trying to please people, we would lovingly challenge pastors, respectfully, of course, but even God might use that as a form of accountability.
SPEAKER_01For sure, for sure. So um there's a there's a uh there's a counter to deference. And when you when you defer and show, you know, you show deference to an authority figure. It's not always sinful to do that, by the way. You know, there's a there is an aspect of submission that we need to talk about for sure. But but if you do it in a way that's for you, and then even you build up in in your own mind uh their reputation, you put them on a pedestal. So they're the the the counter to people pleasing is you actually harm people by doing it. You not you don't only harm yourself, you can harm others by uh not telling them the truth, by letting um you know that old staying, that old saying, you know, go along to get along. Yeah, yeah, the scriptures don't teach that. Yeah, that's that's an idiom that comes straight from the wisdom of men.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Uh we don't go along to get along in the church, and so when you do that with a pastor, um you're setting him up for for harm. Uh so telling the truth in love is is never wrong, right? So I'll say that one more time. Telling the truth in love is never wrong. Whether you're talking to uh the janitor at the church or the senior pastor at the church, whether you're talking to a CEO of a major corporation or you're talking to a janitor there, um, it doesn't matter. Telling the truth is the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. I've heard you say it this way to our staff and and with me in conversations. It's never wrong to do the right thing. Right. Never wrong to do the right thing, and it applies so well here. Um okay, to sort of role play here. If I were coming in five feet across the hallway, I sit down on your couch and I'm going through something and I'm a person, and what questions would you ask me to help me diagnose a fear of man issue? What I'm trying to do through this question is take our example. If we were having a conversation and you were helping me, help people use these questions to diagnose in their own heart and ask the Lord, God, what is going on inside of me that's causing me to behave this way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. And I and I think it's a question that we don't naturally stop and ask ourselves. We kind of just go with the flow. David Paulison wrote a book calling Seeing with New Eyes that was incredibly helpful for me in this area. He has a list in one of the chapters there, but you can actually go online and get a PDF of this. It's called X-ray Questions.
SPEAKER_04That's good.
SPEAKER_01So now this is in the context of biblical counseling, but you really can use it for every area of your life when you're doing um self-reflection, especially, right? And I also encourage people to take some of these questions and give permission to other people to ask you these questions. So um a couple examples would be like, um, so let's just say this role play, you were sitting on my couch and you said something. I might ask you, like, so Costi, what is it that you're desiring? Are you craving something in this? Is is it is this a lust? Are you wishing? Um, is it does it line up with a godly, you know, a godly desire, or is this a fleshly desire? So in the context of Christianity, you would use that kind of language. Um, what are you seeking right now? Or like where's your hope? Are you are you content? Even if you don't get what you want right now, Costi, will you be content in what the Lord is bringing you? So, some of these, those are the examples of actually David Paulson's x-ray questions. And so you can, like I said, go online, download a PDF of that, just go to Google, you know, type in Paulson x-ray questions. You'll have plenty to choose from.
SPEAKER_00You got more? I'm feeling convicted. Let's go. Let's go. You got a few more?
SPEAKER_01How do you weigh success or failure, Costi? So, yeah, you could really or right and wrong, and you know, what's desirable versus undesirable? And you can put those questions literally, well, maybe not literally, but you can put those questions to every single context of your life.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I I think you could. I'm even thinking of different contexts in which if you say, Well, what do you gauge as success or failure? So shifting gears even to marriage. If I'm upset over something my spouse is not doing or doing that I want them to do, and I go, Well, it's gotta be this way. I mean, why won't she do this, Pastor Dale? Or someone says, Why won't he do this, Pastor Dale? Well, if my definition of success in a marriage is they're doing what I want and making me happy, you just pinpointed a major fear of man or people-pleasing issue, or maybe even that initial definition that I gave.
SPEAKER_01So if you're starting with you and you're divorcing God from it, or your role as a husband in this context, and uh she's there to serve you, you're not there to serve her, uh, you're you're in dangerous territory.
SPEAKER_00So good. So good. All right, maybe an obvious question, maybe not, but I think it deserves an answer and an insightful one, knowing where you have already gone with this topic. Is fear of man and this over people pleasing a sin issue? Because somebody might say, Well, I'm only trying to make people happy and keep the peace, go along to get along. Yeah, um, maybe they even say, Well, I aren't I entitled to some level of happiness here, and doesn't what I want matter, Dale? And so is fear of man a sin issue? Go. Yes, yes, simple answer.
SPEAKER_01You see how I didn't fear you there. I think answered, yes. No, see, I mean, listen, we're born into sin, right? Ephesians 2 makes that very clear. We're born into our um dead in our transgressions.
SPEAKER_00Amen.
SPEAKER_01Um, so so this is not something that um it's it's you're ever gonna conquer completely. Let's just let's just let's just realize that Romans uh 5, Romans 7, Galatians 5 are all true, that we are at war with our flesh, that there is a difference between the Spirit of God who indwells us and um the flesh that we have. So, you know, I've heard it put this way. This is uh this is not necessarily a problem to solve, but it's a tension to manage. And what I mean by what that what that is what that means is this is gonna be ongoing work. This is not something where you're gonna one day get up on the mountaintop and plant a flag and say victory. Yeah, um, this because I promise you, on your way down the mountain, you're gonna experience it again. So so just know that as a Christian, and a lot of people do get frustrated with this, you know. Um we all get frustrated at our sin, you know, and uh, but you we need to realize that as long as we're on this planet, you know, uh in this uh dispensation at least, as long as we're on this planet, there's going to be a battle going on. And one of them is this. One of them is uh our trying to survive, trying to get along relationally, get ahead, whatever, what however you want to put it, we're going to have the tension of are we standing for God? Are we doing this because it's godly, or are we doing this because I can get ahead or I can get something beneficial for me? Or can I even get beneficial for my kids? Can I do something that's beneficial for my wife and have the wrong motivation where it's not godly? Yeah. So to answer your question, anytime that I'm fearing man and I'm not fearing God, it's sin.
SPEAKER_00Amen. That's really, really helpful. Um what are some practical ways to, and we'll use this sort of in air quotes, but overcome fear of man and an unhealthy pattern of people pleasing. And why I use those terms and how I asked the question is you've been very clear, and the Bible's really clear, that we're gonna see growth, we're gonna see patterns of sin fading and less inclination, but sin is never gonna go away. It's like that game of whack-a-mole. You hit one, and that's great. I mean, you you you you're giving us tools right now. We've got the giant mallet in our hand when we're looking at this issue, and we can play m whack-a-mole this time, but in three days, fear of man's coming back.
SPEAKER_02Right, sure.
SPEAKER_00Um, but what are some practical ways that people can try to counteract the unhealthy pattern in their life? So this would be decisions and action steps. What can I do right now or today?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I'm a pastor, right? So I'm gonna give a pastor answer on this. Amen. You gotta be in the word. You have to realize that God gave us his word for um more reasons than we'll ever be able to know as mortal men. Uh the layers and layers of his word um are are seemingly endless for us. So Proverbs 29, 25 says that fearing man is a snare, right? It's a snare for me. So if I didn't know the word, I wouldn't know that. So, very practically speaking, you want to be in the word. You want to you want to read about the character of God and the reality of the issues of man, right? The so be a be a student of anthropology, be a student of theology as well, and um know the word of God. Because when you're armed with the word of God, you are you are in your in situations, you will respond differently than if you weren't uh armed with the word of God. So that proverb is, I mean, obviously is is speaks directly to the fear of man issue, but I also think that Proverbs 1 7 has something to say. And and that says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom and instruction. Yeah, so that that draws me just the way I think. If I'm not supposed to fear man, if that's a snare, who am I supposed to fear? Oh, that's good. What am I supposed to fear? And the scriptures are very clear. Um, you're supposed to fear God, not out of a terror, but out of out of a reverence, out of an understanding, especially as adopted kids. He he ceases just being God the just, he also becomes God the Father. So we're not only freed from the courtroom and the penalties that we deserve, that's what the gospel does for us, right? Jesus takes on the punitive um reality of sin onto himself, but then after that, I always view it as a courthouse. He takes us out of the courtroom where the the punitive damages were satisfied, and he walks us across the hall to the family court. Oh, that's good. And he adopts us, right? So so knowing that about the character of God, knowing knowing um who we are in Christ really goes a long way in helping us battle um the fear, um, anxiety, whatever you want to call it that we have when men put us in positions uh to answer to them rather than to answer to God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love the simplicity of your answer because it's not overly simplified in that, oh well, no, it's just some pithy Sunday school answer, but it's simple enough. I can carry that with me everywhere I go. If someone's driving right now, and we could summarize this simply you overcome or counteract the unhealthy pattern of fear of man by building in or seeking out a healthy pattern of fearing God. Correct. That is spot on and so helpful. Um, if you're listening to this, that is the boil-down solution here. You think, well, I'm saved, I've got the gospel, which is what Dale just explained. And then what do I do today? Well, you know, should I tell that person off? Or, well, what I really need to do is go read this book on being a better you or being more confident in who you are and find your identity in you and all that. No, in the end, go get on your knees, open up God's word, and start looking at who God is. Yeah, and oh, that's so hard.
SPEAKER_01I always think about Peter when when I ever talk, have a discussion about fear of man. Um, there are there are many characters that we could look at from the scriptures that uh that exercise the fear of man in a very unhealthy way. But when you look at when you look at Peter, especially, you know, there he is the the night that Jesus is arrested for saying, Hey, I'll die for you, Lord. Yeah, I'll die for you. I'm gonna die for you. And and then a 12 12-year-old little girl, you know, challenges him and says, Hey, you were with Jesus. And what's the first thing he does? No. Self-preservation. Self-preservation. I don't even know the guy. Jesus, he just saw Jesus arrested, and Jesus is about to get beat. Maybe he's already been beat. I can't remember the chronological the uh order of it, but he he knows that he's in trouble. Yeah, so what's the even though he knows the truth, he he he knows the living God, and he but he knows he's in big trouble, and he and he he responds according to the flesh, yeah, and he goes into self-preservation mode, and God is so good, you know. You know, in the book of John, Jesus restores him back into ministry and says, Okay, go, love my, you know, feed my sheep, love my love my sheep. And then what do we find later in the New Testament? Here's Peter again, yeah. Uh fearing, you know, Galatians 2, Acts 15, uh fearing the Jews. Yeah. Um, even though he knew that the Gentiles uh didn't need to be circumcised, didn't need to um live by uh any kind of special laws that the Jews had lived by. But what does he do based out of reputation? Probably, maybe some fear. Sure. But knowing Peter, probably reputation, yeah. What does he do?
SPEAKER_00He falls victim to it again, which is self-preservation of who he has. Self-preservation. Paul has to tell him all.
SPEAKER_01So Paul rebukes him, and you know, we see in Acts 15 that, yeah, I mean, Peter defended Paul. So, you know, Peter took the rebuke.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so that which shows wisdom. Amen. Because he knows God, right? So that goes back to my answer about knowing God. When you know God and who you're supposed to fear, when a brother in Christ or even the scriptures themselves confronts you in your sin, first John 1 9, you confess it.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_01And all confession means is I agree with, I'm agreeing with God that his way is better than my way, his way is better than my boss's way. If my boss is asking me to sin, if my boss is asking me to do something that I know I ought not be doing, and I do it anyways, I'm sinning. I I'm fearing my boss more than I'm fearing God.
SPEAKER_00This is why I go five feet across the hallway and I go into your office and talk to you about this kind of stuff, is because it's so good. I mean, you look at Peter's example, everything you just described, so you can be encouraged, people who are listening. If you see this happen and you go, oh, I'm failing again, and oh, I'm down in the dumps. No, this is going to happen. The question is, how do you respond when confronted? How do you respond when you're convicted? How are you responding right now as Dale unpacks these truths? Are you, you know, skirting it, or have you hit, you know, the little 10-second or 15-second skip button, you're like, let's get to the next thing, you know, I don't want to hear that anymore. Or are you sitting in the conviction and enjoying God's shaping mechanism through it? Uh, Dale, I want to turn the corner here on the opposite side of this. So you've been very helpful in shedding light on the practical realities of it, fear of man, people pleasing, all of those unhealthy patterns, and sort of standing our ground, and we're gonna stick with fearing God. However, is there another unhelpful extreme? So there's the giving in, doing whatever people say to get something back, sort of manipulative. But uh, is there a caution that we should have where we're confident about our obedience and we're we're living for an audience of one and we know who we are, but then we start acting a little too cocky, maybe a bravado, or maybe we're now in the in the habit of we're gonna show everyone how much we don't care what you think. I don't fear anyone. Is there some words of wisdom from you on just taking it easy and being a little more careful as well there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so uh That goes back to the whole tension to manage comment that I made earlier. Um, and we never arrive anywhere. So you know, that that kind of uh that kind of response or that kind of action usually comes when people think they've arrived. Right. So um, hey, I don't care what anybody thinks about me. I'm gonna just do what I think is right. But even there, you're you're at the center of that comment. Yeah, God's not. Um, and if you do put God at the center of that, I'm gonna do what God wants me to do, you you should probably make sure that's what God wants you to do. That's good, right? And I'll because a lot of times people will use God's name as a way to rationalize their behavior um and and say things that are unloving. So right there, I know, well, that's not from God because it's unloving. Right. So yeah, so you don't wanna you don't want your um your battle with fear of man to turn into you know your battle with being a jerk. That's really good. So we so we you know, there's no there's nowhere in the scripture where it says, therefore be a jerk. Yeah, right. So understand your own need for Christ at all times. Understand that um, but by the grace of God, you would be outside of a relationship with him and and respond accordingly. So when you do find yourself in a situation, I'll go back to the boss situation. My boss is asking me to do something that is sinful. Well, a loving thing to do, and and while following God is to sit down with my boss and and share with him. Like I can't do that, and here's why. Yeah, um, I believe in a God of truth. So I'm not going to fudge on the numbers, I'm not going to lie to make the sale. Um, and you might lose your job, by the way. Um you you might end up getting a reputation with the world that um that you don't fit in with them. Well, guess what? You're in good company at that point. Amen. Jesus didn't fit in with in with the world either. And he said, he said, the world hated me, it's gonna hate you. And a student is not greater than his master. So just know as you pursue truth, right, which is really the the opposite of fearing man, is is the pursuit of truth. Hope we've made that clear in this podcast. So as you do that, you will set yourself apart um with people who don't know God, especially, but sometimes even with people who do know God and and they'll they'll demand worship, they'll demand your obedience. But just know that nobody has authority outside of what the scripture says that they have, and that includes pastors, right? So um all that to say we're never allowed to be a jerk when we're right. If we're right about something, it's our responsibility as Christians in my mind is to help people come along to understand our position, the why we are saying what we're saying. Um, and you want to do that in a way that's loving, not so truth without love is is not helpful, frankly, all the time. So you you want to love people when you're telling them the truth, when you're standing up, when you're trying to make a a stand against a certain issue, you want to do it in love.
SPEAKER_00It's really good. I'm reminded of what Chuck Swindah said one time is you know, we can be right, but we don't need to be ugly about it. Amen. And such a good word. So none of this is a license to walk around overstating how much you care, you know, or how much you don't care what people think about you, or ignoring people's needs, or not serving, or being rude and disrespectful to a boss in our tone and being aggressive, being arrogant, having a lot of apathy and not empathy, or being insensitive to people and showing, you know, well, I'm living for an audience of one. I don't care what they say, we can be gentle. That Ephesians 4:15, speaking the truth in love approach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I would say that in the church, um, maybe it depends on the kind of church you're in, but um, that could be just as a big issue as a fear of man issue of the arrogance, being pious, you know, and and uh not being loving. Yeah. Um if if you're operating without love, Jesus is really clear. Yeah you're you're not operating for him. And and uh and I my brothers and sisters who are listening to this, I mean, I I I truly hope you take that to heart. I mean we are a people um that have been called to be different than the world. And the only thing that makes us different is the love of God. Nothing else makes us different. We we've been adopted by that love and we we are sanctified by that love. And He calls us to reach out to our neighbors and to one another, um, other Christians and operate in the same love. Um, why else put the Holy Spirit in us? That I that's why the Spirit's in us, right? Is it's it's to up so we can operate in love. So yeah, we we don't get permission when to be jerks um when we have the truth. It actually more so it actually should guide us towards more patience, more self-control, kindness. Oh, that kind of sounds like Galatians 5. The fruit of the spirit should be should be manifest through us. Amen.
SPEAKER_00That's a good word, really good word. Who are some biblical characters that we could look into and study further, or even look at their lifestyles? And the way that they they did this, and you've already listed a a fun one that was both good and bad and the ugly, it's Peter, but some other examples of leaders and our heroes in the faith who they lived for the Father's will, they walked in obedience, they were clear on truth, but they had a heart of love, and yet at times it's not like they were pacifists and they didn't let it fly. Um, who are some examples people can look to and study for that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think of John the Baptist for sure. I mean, John the Baptist was uh that he was he was absolutely steadfast for truth, right? He would make way, you know. So he yeah he he was not afraid to confront with truth. But even then, when when when uh um the group of of uh religious leaders came down to him, how did he respond to them? Humility with humility, yeah. And and and it wasn't it wasn't a boasting in himself in himself, he boasted in God. So uh he would be an example to where you know he he paid the price for that um boldness and courage, and he prayed he paid the price for love, yeah um and lost his lost his life, was you know um decapitated. Yeah, literally he lost his head over the issue, right? So um that's a that's a great example of and you know again he needed Jesus too, though, right? Um all of us who who undertake this um mission to to represent Christ, yeah, and and to really work hard at representing him well. Um this this these are the these are the kinds of men that we should be looking to as examples, but never elevating them above what Jesus did. Because ultimately what Jesus did is he died for love. That that's that's what he died for. It was it's it's he is love, right? And and he died for love so that we could experience the love of the Father. And so our our you know, and as Christians, listen, I get it. We got to pay the bills, you've got a car payment due, you have food on the table. I don't have time to sit and think about this stuff. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. You you know, listening to a podcast like this right now, even driving in your car, that these are the ways that we move the ball down the field as Christians. We we think about these issues and we do it with humility, but we also do it with a with a real sense of like I can grow. I I I can grow in my faith, I can grow in being a better um representative of Christ, which means the world's probably not gonna like me very much, but they don't have to like me because I'm a jerk. Um, they cannot like me because I'm representing Christ, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Oh, so good. Love drives that whole agenda, the whole agenda. Absolutely. And that if you're gonna be hated for something, be hated for loving God too much, loving Jesus too much, loving people too much, loving truth too much.
SPEAKER_01And the last thing I'll say on that is like we are guilty of thinking that this life is it. Like, how often do you really stop and think about heaven? How how often do you really stop and think about eternity and think like you know what in in in light of eternity, our life on earth is probably a grain of sand of all the beaches that exist on the planet.
SPEAKER_00Seriously, right?
SPEAKER_01And and we we get into a mode where we care so much and fear so much about that little grain of sand that we lose sight of all the rest of the sand that we're going to experience with God. Wow. So I just I just want to I'm I'm preaching to myself right now. Um we we really just want to be mindful. Listen, this life is short. What does God say? It's a vapor. It truly is. So so live it that way. Yeah, because what's coming next never ends ever. And that's perfect peace with our Lord, it's perfect contentment with our Lord. And and I promise you, to get ahead in heaven, which sounds weird, you're never gonna have to do something that you're gonna regret.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01So can we can start living that way now? Yeah, we we really can. And it's through the power of the Spirit, and go back to how we started this conversation, it's through knowing who God is. And the only way you're gonna know who God is, is by knowing him as he's revealed himself in the word.
SPEAKER_00Paul the Apostle, such a great example, comes to mind as you're talking about that because he's a guy who, as sports phrase, left it all on the field. One life to live, got after it, big time turnaround from the way he used to be, like so many of us in go through, every Christian goes through, hopefully. And once you go from that life to the new life, he was just all out, all in. And I I think of some of the stories that you and I have talked about and your old ways, you're still a big Dodger fan, but you know, the the the I haven't repented of that yet. No, and you and after they won the World Series, you don't have to, but your former life in those days, you know, how hard you went for the world, how hard you went for yourself, and going hard for Jesus now. The other way is Paul's example. That is the way to do it, to live as Christ, to die as gain. We're a grain of sand on the timeline of eternity. Um, how would somebody uh maybe confront an issue or or mirror Christ in his righteous indignation? They're hearing you talk, they're going, okay, so I want to be loving Dale, I want to be somebody who doesn't overemphasize how much I don't care. When are the moments or what are the moments that you could illustratively, you know, turn the tables over, so to speak? What types of things should we be strong against and speak up and have a little bit above that sort of Pauline um, this is who I am, take it or leave it, but with a maybe a sanctified attitude in the midst of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm we could have multiple podcasts to talk about all the different examples of that, but I'll just start with the bride of Christ. Um Jesus died for the bride. And when the bride's in danger, when the bride is being abused, um we need to step in. And uh, you know, Jesus gets accused of being gentle and mild and having a butterfly on his shoulder. Um that's not the Lord I know. Uh the Lord I know was serious about truth, serious about love. Um, but he's very serious about his bride. And I think as uh as leaders in the church, especially, we we need to protect the bride of Christ. We're shepherds. Yeah, um, and I know there are people who are not shepherds who are listening to this, there are people who uh have various different roles. Um but that area of influence, family, that um when people are attacking your family and they're doing it in an unrighteous way, uh you you need to stand for truth and defend. There's nothing uh there's nothing unbiblical about defending what you love.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. If you're listening to this and I'm thinking of all the different ways to apply that, you already started pushing in a few key areas besides the pastorate. Uh, I think often as a parent, even I may be hesitant to speak up or to say something because I don't want to offend people. Uh, you've got two kids, I've got four kids, we've got girls and boys in our homes. There is a a time to sort of let let things go and roll with it. And then when there's but there's a lot of times where as a parent, uh you get one shot at this. You know, our kids are all under the age of 13. You get one chance to lay that faithful foundation. And so I think parenting is a place maybe that you would be encouraging people, do not fear man, don't fear the Lord above all else, don't fear anyone else in parenting.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely in parenting. And you know, I I think uh you when you think about God as Father, I think it's gonna be interesting when we when we get to the other side um of all this and and we get to see all those moments that God defended us and protected us that we're not aware of right now. You know, the enemy is is a roaring lion, right? He's seeking people to devour and uh how God protects us um through um the agents of angels and and and through the power of the Holy Spirit. Um, I can't wait to hear some of those stories or see them, however, that's gonna happen. But um especially, I mean, God the father, I mean he's he illustrates himself as a father for a reason. Fathers protect, they provide, right? And they also discipline, they do lots of different things, but but ultimately they protect them those who they love. And um, as fathers, as mothers, as we parent our children, absolutely, you don't ever want to be guilty of fearing men more than fearing God and how you're raising up your child, right? So, I mean, the issue of spanking, we don't have to get into all that, but you know, in the last couple decades, there's been a big push to to basically ignore God's word. Because the word even the term spanking has now been labeled as abuse.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Well, the scriptures don't talk about it in an abusive way, but that's been twisted in our culture. Um, and you know, to to raise Christian children, to raise them up in the way that they should go, at least, it's probably better said. Um, the scriptures are clear. Um, and no, you don't do it in anger and you don't do it in a way that leaves welts or anything like that. No, you do it in love. That's and um, so that's an example. You probably get some emails over that people are gonna hate on me for talking about spanking, but it it's a it's an example of um doing what God told you to do and how to do it rather than listening to what the world tells you to do and how to do it.
SPEAKER_00Amen. I'm gonna go there. We're gonna go there real quick. Uh, if someone is listening, you're going, oh my goodness, how dare they, or what are these guys talking about? And you're a Christian, and that's an area you've not addressed, uh, let me echo what Dale just mentioned and pushed on and say this. There is an epidemic in the church in a lot of areas. You could say manhood and you could say uh truth and heresy and all that, but I'll tell you another one parenting. There are not enough people, not enough of you, and not enough of us reading books like Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp. If you've never read that book, go order it on Amazon. If you don't have money, send me an email, send us a contact form, uh whatever the thing is on forthegospel.org. Go fill that out and say, I have no money, I need that book, or hit me up on social media. Here's the deal: you don't do it in anger, you do it in love, but we're not doing a generation any favors by letting them run the show and just going, well, we don't want to make them angry or I'm scared of people. No, if you love your child just like God the Father, you would discipline and guide them in that way. And so we are going to have future episodes on parenting. I can't recommend that book to you enough. If you send me an email and you don't agree and you haven't read that book yet, I'm not going to respond. So read that book first, dig into what Ted Tripp says. I guarantee you'll see a biblical heart for parenting and realize that God has put you in a position of managerial authority. You're the middleman, you're not God. And so even some people think back to their parents when they would discipline them, you know, and they go, I don't want to spank my kid like that. Or in our house we call it the rescue rod because it's rescuing them from their sin. It's the rod of correction biblically. You know, people think of their parents going, That's it. I've had enough. I give you four chances. Get in there. And that's not how God does really anything. It's first-time obedience, it's loving discipline. And as you continue to grow, it continues to be addressed. But we're not God. We don't decide when. God decides when.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's interesting because if you you get into the word, it's actually a lack of love. It's actually unloving not to discipline your children. God actually says you hate your kids.
SPEAKER_00He who hates his son spares the rod. He who spares the rod hates his son.
SPEAKER_01So um I'm gonna listen to that rather than um anybody else in this world. And I I might be tempted to listen to the world. I might be tempted to say, you know what, yeah, you know, my kids throw on a fit in public. What am I supposed to do? Well, what I do is we'll just wait till we get home, right? And we'll have that conversation. But um it's always, and what God always does too, and I want to say this for the audience listening, you don't spank for this, you know, or discipline is the better word. You don't discipline for the sake of discipline. You you discipline so that you can point back to the love and the affirmation that you have in the relationship. You're our kids need us to lead them, yeah, right. And they need to be affirmed in their relationship with us, right? That's exactly what God does for us. That's right. As he disciplines us, he always reaffirms his love for us. So whether whether you fall on the issue of, you know, we're on this topic of discipline or not, the reality is that when you look at the character of God and you look at how he does things, and then you listen with a with a serious heart and an honest mind, I think, uh about what he says. Um, what he said thousands of years ago when that was pinned is still this true today as it was then. So if that if that's the case, then maybe submitting to God rather than men on that topic, especially could actually help change our culture.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And we'll we'll do some episodes in the future on parenting, we'll do a full series on it because I know that one of the top questions people will have is okay, I guys, I agree, I get it, I'll read the book, Shepherding a Child's Heart and all that, but how? Then how do I do it? So, yeah, in some future episodes, we'll talk about the practicalities of that and dig in. Um Yeah, because I'm sure this is gonna light a firestorm for you. So you're welcome. It's good, it would be really helpful. Uh we were taught, and that was what was so helpful, is an older pastor did a seminar, and then an older couple did a class, and we got to go through 14 weeks of parenting classes as a church and all these young families, and there were QA's. I mean, we really got to work through a lot of this, and so you see, the goal is always the heart, it's not behavior modification, it's heart transformation. So, my goal isn't just to discipline and get my kid to stop. My goal is to always point them to their need for Christ and the heart. I need my heart changed, my behavior. I the world does a lot of behavioral modification, like, hey, don't drink and drive, you might kill someone. Great. That doesn't do anything with the heart, it doesn't address my heart issue. Yeah, and so yeah, we'll dig in more. Some passages that you can study and file uh before we wind this episode down. Proverbs 29, 25 says, the fear of man lays a snare. Whoever trusts in the Lord is safe. Hebrews 13, 6. So we can confidently say, The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me? In more the context of uh persecution, like Matthew 10, 28, or what people can do to you or against you. Do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. And so if you're looking for thoughts or uh God's insights in scripture on how to not fear persecution.
SPEAKER_01And it shows you how important I mean, that shows you that passage right there, just shows you how critical this whole conversation is. Like, this isn't like, oh, I hope to have a better life. No, no, no, no, no, no. This is this matters greatly. And it's actually a barometer, like where am I with Christ, perhaps? Absolutely. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Galatians 1 10. Paul says, after pretty much calling out uh the Galatian heresy and saying that whoever's teaching another gospel needs to be accursed, anathematized, which is literally a curse laid upon them. He says, after, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. And his whole point was to these guys who were saying, Oh, you're the gospel's so easy, oh, it's just grace, oh this. They were coming at Paul a number of different ways and basically calling him a people pleaser and telling him he's making it all easy. And in the end, he goes, Yeah, here's some hard truth for you. Am I now just people pleasing? No, I'm trying to please God. Uh, Dale, on some topics, it seems really fitting to close in prayer. Um, we've hit some major things and maybe these last few minutes on parenting, the way the world does things, on you know, living for Jesus and focusing on eternity, people are pressed with conviction, maybe more questions have erupted than ever in their minds. Would you be willing to pray for us and those listening for balance if we're struggling with a pattern of fearing man? And for those struggling with the other extremes of being indifferent, maybe struggling with that overemphasis on how I don't care what people think and how those actions affect other people. And then would you add in a special prayer for parents who may be wrestling through how to discipline, how to shepherd hearts? And they had a terrible childhood and they were abused. And and then for pastors and leaders who are in the mix of trying to guide people through this and and to love people because we're gonna tell the truth to people sometimes. And you know this as a pastor, they don't change right away. It's really frustrating. You know, I thought I told you what my book said, and I told you what I know in my brain, but we're sinners, it's not that clean and easy, it's not one counseling session and done. So would you just pray for us all?
SPEAKER_01I would love to. Yeah, pray pray with me, please. Father, the ultimate goal for us is to live inside of your will, to live it out. But we also know we live on a broken planet. We know we have fallen, uh we have a fallen, sinful nature as well. And we need the power of the Holy Spirit to guide us and direct us. Magother, we also need to know you. We need to know the word. We need to be in the word, we need to be studying the word, memorizing the word, so that we're when we're in those moments of trial, we're in those moments where we need to make a decision about what we're going to do, the word would come to us and that we'd respond according to your will, God. So I pray that and the topic of fearing man, that we would fear no man, that we would fear you, that we would have a reverence for you and a respect for you and a love for you, that we would desire to serve you and worship you alone, that we would die to ourselves, that the Romans 6 passage that says plainly that we are no longer slaves to sin, that we're slaves to Christ, that that would be our life. So, God, I pray that for myself, I pray that for Costi. I pray that for every person listening to this podcast. Father, help us, please, to know you and help us to trust you and to live our lives for you. And God, especially for parents, it's such a hard job to be a parent. Um, you have little ones in your house that haven't learned yet how to fake not being selfish. And it it can become very trying, it can be very frustrating, God. So I pray for patience and self-control for the Christian uh parents out there, and that you would give them a heart and a mind not to try to change behavior, that but you'd give them a heart and mind to change hearts. And the only thing that can do that is the power of the gospel. So God may be, may we all be parents that uh are constantly sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with our children. Every day, God, our kids should be hearing the truth about what Jesus did and uh the proper response to that. So I pray that for parents, God, um, especially living in the attention of this world where kids are idolized, um, kids are lifted up higher than you are in the eyes of our culture, God. So I pray for that battle that takes place in public schools and private schools and charter schools. It takes place everywhere. Little league fields, um, it's everywhere. So, God, I pray for patience and self-control for those parents. And I pray for pastors and leaders, Father, not only in the church but outside of the church, that you would give them wisdom, that you would give them a long-suffering nature, that they would know that things don't happen overnight. Um, all they need to do to be reminded of that is look in the mirror. Uh, our own transformations and sanctification is has been a process and continues to be a process. So for those new in the faith, for those who have been in the faith for a long time but still crave milk, uh, God, give us patience and give us self-control with them as well.
unknownUh-huh.
SPEAKER_01God, ultimately, I just pray that you would bless and continue to bless your church, that you would protect your church and use uh shepherds and use leaders in the church to do that. So, God, thank you for Costi. Thank you for the um for this ministry, and uh thank you for blessing us with uh the adoption that you've uh granted us into your family. It's in Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen, amen, amen. For more, uh Dale has published an article on this topic on the For the Gospel blog, so check that out, and we'll share it on social media this week. If you're looking for it on the blog and you can't find it, use the category feature or just go to our team page, click on Dale Thackra. It's in alphabetical order, so he's there, and all of his articles are under his bio. Dale, thank you for being with us on the for the gospel podcast. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Well, uh, as stated in the coming weeks, we'll do a parenting series. Really excited to dig in further on some of those in the end. Uh, thank you so much for listening. If you will, please subscribe, rate, review, and for more, go to for thegospel dot org. We're back every Monday with another episode. Until then, keep living for the gospel.