Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we are all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. My name is Costi Hinn, and I have Johnny Artavanis on with me today. He's a good friend, and I've got some questions for him. We're going to be talking a little bit about anxiety and depression targeted at the next generation. Johnny is the Dean of Student Life at the Masters University in California and the director at Hume Lake. And so he's no stranger to teaching and reaching the next generation from college students to high school students. Johnny, welcome to the For the Gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thank you, Costi. I'm I'm pumped to be on.
SPEAKER_00Did I get everything right? Your title at TMU and then Hume Lake director?
SPEAKER_01It's a hodgepodge. I'm called the Dean of Campus Life, but some.
SPEAKER_00Oh, there we go. Yeah. Dean of campus life. You're basically like the boss of something.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I oversee some things, student-facing, like chapel missions, some student leadership things, and then I travel and preach in a representative fashion on behalf of the university.
SPEAKER_00All right. So basically, in my mind, because I'm a simple man, you're just the guy that being there means that I tell all our high school students, go to the Masters University because Johnny Artavanis is there. You'll be in good hands, you'll be fine.
SPEAKER_01Uh that that'd be kind way to put it. Yeah, I'd love to hang with them. I tell students, come hang with me at the Masters University.
SPEAKER_00There you go. So all right. Well, we're being paid no extra uh advertising dollars for that, but we might I'm gonna need you to send that little clip to somebody uh if needed and let them know we're we're plugging TMU, man.
SPEAKER_01We're thankful for you guys. Thank you, brother.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Well, anxiety and depression is a huge deal for teenagers and college students. And I heard a recent study that highlighted some of this. There's been an increased rate in suicides, um, all sorts of things that uh junior high girls and junior high boys are struggling with. And then I I read one study that was related to COVID and the isolation that a lot of college students experienced. And basically, reports of anxiety, depression, fear, all of those things are on the rise. And I wanted to talk about this with you, not only because your role at TMU, but your experience with this entire next generation on this topic. And I wanted to ask you how important it is for Christians to be aware of this challenge to our young people and not to just brush it off and go, ah, you'll be fine. I walked uphill to school both ways, man. Just go get them out there. And and parents sort of telling their kids, just go figure it out, throw them in the deep end. Um, but to be aware of this, what are some of the factors you're seeing assaulting the joy of the next generation?
SPEAKER_01No, that's a great question, Costine. I think part of it needs to be differentiated from students that know God and don't know God. So you'd have to start there. But understanding the topic is massively important because the hope and confidence that a believer has stands in stark contrast to the crippling fear and anxiety that plagues the world. You know, I always think about when J.I. Packer says in the opening chapters of knowing God, he says, Life in this world is strange, mad, and disappointing when you don't know the God who made it. And so you look at all these different students, and I know we're talking young people, but really just the world in general. I was looking at a study the other day, Costi, and it said that in 2010, 253 million prescriptions for psychiatric drugs were filled out in America. 253 million, and that's in a nation of 311 million people. And so it kind of helps you understand at least the significant element of this, and as you said, it's even more so on the rise. So it's really important for Christians to understand it for a number of reasons, including this is something that Christian youth struggle with. Uh, and it's also something that is part of our gospel witness to be able to portray a hope and confidence in a good, loving, and sovereign God in a world of closed beaches, closed campuses, and closed businesses. Uh, we have a different type of hope and a different type of trust. And the opposite of anxiety in this in this conversation, and then uh especially amongst believers, is not just neutrality, it's trusting God. And that really shows the world who we worship and who we follow. So it's it's a huge discussion and it's massively important.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. It is sobering to think of the number that you just threw out there and how high the percentage of people is in our country that are medicated for this sort of thing. It really tells you if if you could package peace and sell it as a product, you'd be the richest person that ever lived because that's what people are after. Um do you do you find that with the the next generation, and honestly adults too, but we'll keep kind of bouncing back and forth with that, that comparison and um you know self-obsession and self-centerness all contribute to people being stripped of their joy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um that's a huge factor in it. I'm reading a book called Envy Theory right now, and it's written by a secular psychologist, and in envy theory that describes discontentment and comparison as a major catalyst in anxiety. I think it was C. C. S Lewis who said comparison is the thief of joy. But comparison in our world is now one of the major catalysts for anxiety and worry. You know, when you look at what other people have perpetually, you know, the average student is on their phones roughly six to seven hours a day, and all they see is what other people have and someone else's pretend and postured perfect life. It's hard not to be anxious. And even as you consider Casti the passage where Jesus addresses anxiety, it says, Therefore, do not be anxious. But right before that, he's teaching how the eye is the lamp of the body. And so the passage on anxiety is rooted in what we worship, and Jesus is revealing what we worship is often what we look at. And those things become idols in our life. You know, I used to remember my mom used to sing me, turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful face, and you all know it, and the things of this world will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace. That's right. But that's nearly impossible for the next gen to turn their eyes upon Jesus when they're perpetually turning their eyes upon materialism, comparison, envy. Um, that is a huge factor. And that's not just something that's a that's not just a biblical opinion, it's a scientific reality.
SPEAKER_00Man, so even I love that you brought that up, even secular psychologists would affirm that. We know it to be true because of what the Bible teaches, but this is just human behavior. If you are comparing, if you're looking over the fence constantly, if you're not content, it will naturally steal joy and fuel anxiety.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's funny when you look at the studies that are done, how similar they are to the realities of scripture. I'm reading three other books right now, and just to give you an idea, one is Rewire Your Anxious Brain, one is rewire your brain, and the other is the hacking of the American mind. All non-Christian books, but they all talk about all how your mind and what you're filling it with and what you look at with your eyes is playing a significant component in why you're anxious today. And Jesus was spot on as the great physician 2,000 years ago.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, he was. Um, what are some of the wrong ways that teenagers, college students, people in general try to cope with their anxiety and depression? Talk about quote, unquote, coping mechanisms.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a number of wrong ways. And you could talk about alcohol abuse, you know, it's almost a similar chart when you look at the rise in pornography and the rise of anxiety as a nation. And you could say that one leads to another. You know, the if you're a porn addict, you are anxious. And if you're anxious, one of the ways that you can cope is through pornography. And so it's a vicious cycle of relationship. You can't really say one's dependent on another because they both are almost married to each other. And we live in a pornographic world. So there's a coping mechanism, but even in the anxiety world, from a psychiatrist's perspective, you know, people are recommended to allocate their anxiety into two 15-minute increments in the morning and evening. So just try to condense everything for 15 minutes, or you know, even some of the coping mechanisms are obviously helpful. But it's sad that as you look at it, Kasti, uh, even when I go to different clinics that are sponsored by universities that approach the subject, the most that they can offer someone who's getting a certification in mental health counseling, the most that they can offer someone who's graduating from their program is to help others manage their anxiety. So the word coping there is very strategic and it's very correct because from the world's perspective, that's all that they can do. It's to offer coping, managing, and suppressing and alleviating tactics that offer temporary solutions. And that's all that it is.
SPEAKER_00What you're describing sounds like putting a band-aid on a flesh wound that's just bleeding out and it needs something so much more. I so I'm intrigued by what you just brought up. That the 15-minute increments. Uh all right. So, what does it look like, according to a secular psychologist, to condense your anxiety into two 15-minute increments in the morning and in the evening? Like, give me an example of what I'm supposed to do in the morning for 15 minutes. Freak out or like I what is that?
SPEAKER_01Almost to forecast the different things that will happen in your day and then to be able to think ahead towards those things and then know how to respond. And yeah, exactly. I mean, be anxious for those 15 minutes so that when that moment comes, you don't have to be. If you've seen What About Bob, you know much of the solutions that are offered today haven't really changed much from a comedy made 30 years ago. Baby steps, baby steps, I can do it, I can do it. Uh, and what's hilarious, you know, is actually sadly scientific recommendation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I so in my mind, when I hear even what you're describing, I'm like, oh, that just sounds like some some of what we do as human beings to just look out at your day, what's coming, what meetings do you have, what individuals you're gonna interact with, and then yeah, I'm gonna prepare this way or pray this way. I that doesn't sound like grand scientific psychological wisdom. It sounds what we would do as Christians is to be prudent and ahead of time say, I'm gonna behave in a godly way, or I'm gonna pray today for my day, but it just sounds oddly empty when you describe what you just described.
SPEAKER_01And part of the strategy can be helpful, Costi, if you think about our our enemy prowls around like a roaring lion. It's helpful to think ahead of when you're vulnerable to sin. But that's differentiated from trying to deny the presence of anxiety for 23.5 hours of the day.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Because you can't deny a reality in your life. And if your anxiety is not something that's outside of you and it's inside of you, that means you can't run from it the rest of the day. The uninvited companion of anxiety follows you around regardless of whether or not you're allocating it to a 15-minute chunk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it makes me think also of Paul instructing Christians to pray without ceasing. You go, why? Why are Christians uh encouraged and commanded to pray without ceasing? Well, obviously we can't funnel our anxiety into two 15-minute increments and then revisit them. The yeah, I need to pray constantly, I need to strategize, quote unquote, biblically. Um that's super helpful. I are there are there elements regarding social media and affirmation and even you know relationships and dating and sexual sin that are our favorite targets that you see when you're talking to college students and teenagers and your um even your role at the masters brings you into contact with a lot of the next generation. Um do you see uh any favorite uh coping mechanisms, if you will, or go-tos when people have anxiety and depression or they're struggling with fear?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a few things that you could consider. People go to different coping mechanisms that make them feel valued and safe when they are anxious, and both of those things are important because anxiety can manifest itself in a number of different ways. And as just a preface to the whole conversation, there's so much to be said here, and so I'm not you know responding exhaustively to all the different items of this discussion, which is so important. Um, but yeah, pornography is a huge one, and I already mentioned it. But if you think about you're anxious because you have maybe a lowered suppressed version of yourself, and then you can go to a pornographic page where you become the center of the universe and feel wanted and loved and cherished and respected. Um, there's no surprise there. Uh for other people, it's they fear and they feel crippled, and so they can go online and get perpetually affirmed by other people, and it might be as simple as you're so beautiful to me, you know, on a comment on Instagram. Yeah. But what they're doing at that point is finding worth and value and significance and the fleeting opinions of someone else, and that becomes also, even scientifically, uh, a dopamine release for them. And so pornography and drugs aren't the only thing that release dopamine. So does an a comment of affirmation from someone 2,500 miles away that you've never met that says, Oh my goodness, you're stunning.
SPEAKER_00That totally makes sense. That really makes sense. All right, well, let's get into uh where where we're heading now. What are some right ways that we should be addressing these challenges? Give us the biblical prescription, the right kind.
SPEAKER_01You know, even when you ask that, Costi, it's such a thing that we kind of take for granted. Give us the biblical description. Because the question is, does the Bible say anything about this? Almost start there because we say, give us the biblical insight on this. You're assuming that the Bible does, um, which is what we know. But if you ask yourself, hey, does the Bible respond to this? Then immediately you go, well, if it does, that means God knows about this issue. Amen. And that means that a follower of Jesus Christ can have hope. And then if the Bible does respond and talk to this issue at hand, does it do so in a way that doesn't leave me feeling merely condemned, but gives me the strength and hope, hope, and confidence to not merely manage anxiety, but to overcome it.
SPEAKER_02So good.
SPEAKER_01And so when you say give us biblical insights, I just want to go, man, does the Bible actually talk about it? Because if it does, if the God of the universe speaks to it, that means we have a ton of hope. And if you were gonna host Jesus Christ on this podcast, and you asked him different things about coping mechanisms for anxiety, Ecclesiastes 1-9 says there's nothing new under the sun. So even as we look to rising trends and different methods for coping, anxiety is nothing new. And so if Jesus was gonna get on this podcast, he wouldn't have anything new that's based on 2021 COVID analytics. Amen. He would say, open your Bible. And so I find great comfort in that because the world is full of opinions, and even as you're asking me questions, the first few had, you know, had some to do with my own opinion, which I don't have a lot of confidence in communicating my own opinion or take on something. But when you say what does the Bible say, well, let's look at the scripture, and number one, in the Bible, there's no stoic denial of emotion. The Psalms, 33% of them are lament. So good. People crying out in their hearts to God. The Psalms become our own articulation of Christian experience. And so if you think about David, who's a man after God's own heart, a warrior king, he's a bad dude. Um, he will say, Psalm 13, where are you, God? Where are you? My soul is anguished with grief, my bed is full of tears. Why do you forsake me, God? That's a very real thing throughout the Psalms. If you consider the most blameless man in the world in Job, he responds immediately after there's 10 verses where Sabaeans, Chaldeans, fire and wind destroy everything in his life. And he's left with a wife telling him to curse God and die as he sits in dirt, scratching his boils with a shard of pottery. And we know that he says, Blessed be the name of the Lord immediately. But 33 chapters later, he's saying, God, where are you? God, where are you? Why did you do this? And for the sake of time, what's interesting, every single time you look at an anxious man or woman, whether that's even Elijah, as he sits under a tree running from Jezebel, saying, God, take my life, God responds to the despair of David, the anxiety of Job, uh, and to Elijah in one way throughout scripture. In one way. And it's consistently through proclaiming his own character.
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SPEAKER_01He does not respond and say, This is a legitimate anxiety, David. You've been on the run from Saul for 10 years, hiding in caves, even though you were anointed the king of Israel. He doesn't he doesn't do that. He says, David, here's who I am. And that's why when you look at the Psalms, so much of them are reflections of God's character. Oh Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise, you perceive my thoughts from afar. In the midst of anxiety, David's going, Where can I go from your spirit and where can I flee from your presence? If I go to the heavens, God, you're there. And that's a great comfort to anxious David. And if you look at Job, Job, who is anxious, God doesn't respond and say, You're right. You have been dealt a massive blow, which was true. He responds to Job and says, Job, gird your loins, dude. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Do you tell waves when to stop Job? Does the lightning ask you where to strike? And that's how God responds for three chapters. And after that, Job goes, I lay my hand upon my lips because I now understand who God is. And even as I look at the New Testament, Kasti, Jesus speaks on anxiety, not in a period of isolation, but during a sermon on the mount, where he's just revealed that our treasures indicate where our heart is. Then our eyes reflect what we worship. And then the master that we serve reflects who our real God is. And then he says, Therefore, don't be anxious. But he doesn't stop there as just at just a command. He says, Look at the birds. Look at them. And I don't think he's preaching like, heary, heary, look at the birds. I think he's snapping his fingers and going, hey guys, I want you to look at me real quick. And now I want you to look over there to that bird. Is that bird made in the image of God? Did I die for the larks? Look at the flowers. Are they made in the image of God? And part of it is throughout the scripture we see that God responds to anxious people through proclaiming his own character, and that the Christian faith is a thinking faith. So many people, as far as coping mechanisms, try to feel their way towards a solution. The Bible commands us to think our way towards a solution. And what we think towards is who God is and what he has done. And that's not an empty platitude offered by Jesus. Jesus wants us to know, especially in Matthew 6, who God is as Father. And as we dwell and meditate on who God is as Father, look at these birds, look at these flowers. Were they made in the image of God? No, yet your heavenly father feeds them. How much more does he care and love and provide for you? And so the Christian has a responsibility to understand that God's character is the antidote to anxiety because medication can only temporarily alleviate some of the symptoms and maybe level out the playing field. But medication can never take you into a position of trust. And that's why God is always saying, Don't you know who I am? And then it says because you're anxious and you're worrying like the Gentiles. That's just not a non-Jew. That's someone that doesn't know God. And so when we try to get we're so crippled by these things, um God wants us to remind ourselves of who we have as Father.
SPEAKER_00That was one of the more powerful stretches I can remember on this podcast. I am so grateful for you pointing us to God's character. That ministered to me personally, too. I am so uh passionate about God's character, and I forget. You know, I know you're passionate about God's character. You forget Job, David. I mean, just look at the list. And I'm sure there's people listening that are like, I love God. I'm so passionate about who he is, and I'm thankful for who he is, and I praise him for who he is, and I forget all the time in moments of despair or moments of disappointment or a moment of comparison or anxiety about what's going to happen. And um, what you just pointed us to was such a powerful equipping mechanism for anybody in any life stage. One highlight and favorite moment GERD, your loins, dude, was I think that was a paraphrase of God. It was better than the message uh paraphrase, at least. But it's so it's true. Gerd your loins. We're gonna have Johnny Artavanis on the lineup, and he's gonna preach about the sovereignty of God in the midst of suffering and Job's outburst at God and Gurdj's loins, dude. Um, but it's convicting, it it really is that moment in Job, I think 38, 39, and 40, where God basically says, Oh, got it. All right. So so you got this thing nailed. Yeah. Um, you know, let me know how I'm doing, Job, here, since you did it all. Uh Johnny, I want to go one layer deeper as we land the plane here. This is for the person who's listening, and they're they're thinking, okay, what you're saying is helpful. I get most of it. God's character, okay. Kind of sounds like the Sunday school Jesus answer, but all right, Johnny, you know, I I get it. You brought the Bible to the table, so I know that I need to submit to that. Um, but I I believe or I think or I feel like, you know, if I just love myself and I finally accept myself and love myself, then I will be able to love others and accept others, and I'm gonna experience happiness. Until I'm happy with myself, I can't be happy. Until I love myself, I can't love others. That sort of platitude gets thrown around a lot. I hear this with young people in counseling in different places, it'll come out in the world system. Speak to that person who thinks they will be happy. They won't struggle with these things once they finally uh love themselves and accept themselves for who they are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I think there's a number of different ways that you could respond to that type of individual. First of all, that type of strategy would never bring any sort of comfort to me because I am a changing person. Um, what brings me great comfort is to be loved by a changeless God. And so when you tell someone you need to learn how to love yourself, biblically I know that my heart is deceitful, it's desperately wicked, and I'm an enemy of God pre-regeneration. And so when you tell someone to love themselves, that might be, I would just say, number one, a very shallow, weak approach to fighting anxiety. When Paul's trying to encourage people in Romans 8, it's not even encouraging them as if that's the main endeavor. He's just trying to communicate to them a biblical reality. He says, uh, what shall we say against these things? If God is for us, then who can be against us? It's a syllogistical question because it has no uncertainty around that idea. No one. And then through all these things, we are more than conquerors. It is supermension, German, or supermen, because God loves us. And so what matters supremely is not that we learn how to love ourselves, which is fleeting and fading, and we constantly have to work that up. We are loved by a God who is changeless, who loves us consistently. And that's why Paul says, what can separate us from the love of God? Nothing. Height, depths, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come. Uh, you, your ability to love yourself is based on the day that you had. God's ability to love you is not based on any sort of merit. It's based on who his character is. And that's why I'm good to be a broken record on this, Casi. I just see no value in anything that's faced internally towards our anxiety. We have to look to God. You know, modern psychology tells you to contemplate your inner child and then find that child. The Bible tells us to contemplate our heavenly father and understand who God is as Father. I don't see the value in it. I don't see it in the scripture, and God's love for me is far more tremendously comforting than my fleeting love of myself, which can actually become pride and idolatry.
SPEAKER_00Powerful thoughts, man. I'm struck with thoughts of 1 Peter 5, 7, cast all your anxieties on him, for he cares for you. Yeah, God-centered focus, and then Philippians 4, where Paul says, be anxious for nothing. I mean, are those two passages obviously come to mind a lot of times when we're talking about anxiety? Yeah, the expansion of Philippians 4 being with everything with thanksgiving, uh supplement make your supplications be made known to God. What are, including those ones, what are some other Bible passages you would um point people to in order to sort of dig into this issue?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think first off, as a prefacing remark, it's important for people to understand that God doesn't offer compartmentalized sanctification. The same thing in regards to purity. When someone says, How can what are passages for me in fighting pornography? I'll tell them, well, God isn't going to give you victory over an isolated area of your life when you're not seeking him holistically.
SPEAKER_02That's true.
SPEAKER_01And so the scripture is the antidote, and that's understanding who God is. You know, I think one of the things that's helpful for me, Costy, is that sometimes we understand and can affirm with the book of Hebrews that Jesus is a sympathetic high priest.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01But Jesus is not a sympathetic high priest. You know, we view that merely, we kind of view that word as if he understands. Jesus is an empathetic high priest because he was and is no stranger to suffering. And so when you ask for me for a list of passages, I would say the gospel of John, because who more like Christ, who more than Christ understands what it's like to be betrayed? Who more than Christ understands what it's like to be troubled in John 12? Who more than Jesus Christ understands what it's like to be abandoned by his friends and by his own father on the cross, on the cross. And so when you think about a list of passages, I think it's understanding the character of Jesus Christ throughout the Gospels, and then obviously Matthew 6 for me, because the permeation of God's character, but I don't even like to say God's character because sometimes we look at his attributes distinct from who God is personally. We say we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but to someone who's anxious, I say, does it feel very personal to you? And so that's why memorized verses don't combat anxiety the way that deep communion and intimacy with Jesus does. Wow. And so I would never recommend isolated verses to anybody, other than if they're meditating on something larger as a whole and saying, hey, understand who Jesus is, understand who God is. He loves you, he knows you. You're not a number to God. In a previous episode, Costi, I heard you say that there's seven billion plus people on the planet, which is true. And as I think about an anxious person, a lot of them feel unknown. And I would say, hey, well, consider John 10. In a world of 7 billion people, you're not a number to God.
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SPEAKER_01You're known by name to God. He knows every hair on your head. He holds your tears in a bottle in Isaiah. You're engraven on the palms of his hand, and he says he's preparing in John 14 a place for you. That brings me comfort more than be anxious for nothing. Even though those verses are true and offer help, I want to know who Jesus is because Jesus himself, not just the facts about him, are the antidote to anxiety. And most people, even in my own heart, growing up in the church, I did not understand that.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Even those texts in the epistles are most often prefaced by Paul unpacking the gospel and who God is, which is exactly what you just pointed us to. So I I want to affirm that and repeat: if you're listening to this and you are wrestling through feelings and emotions and thoughts, anxieties, depressions, uh, don't think in terms of, you know, one verse. That verse is going to heal it or fix it or solve it. Go and read the Gospel of John. And Johnny, you have um, I'm thinking of that too, uh, dial in. Aren't you walk are you have you walked through the entire Gospel of John or Yeah, the entire Gospel.
SPEAKER_01Uh my podcast called Dial In with Johnny Artivanis. And the goal there was just to take the main themes and ideas of the Gospel of John in a sequential format. And it's been really cool to see how the Lord has used it in others' life, but I think mainly just my own. Um, and so yeah, that's called Dial In.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, I would encourage you guys who are listening to to go check that out. And um Johnny is a contributor at for the gospel, so you can click on his profile. And I think we'll try to get a link for that there or in the show notes here. But go through the Gospel of John and get intimately acquainted with who your God is. Go to the root, and that is going to lead you closer to seeing who he is and be the best way to deal with those other symptoms, whatever they may be in your life. Johnny, man, thank you for your insights here. This was awesome.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Cossi. Thanks for the time.
SPEAKER_00Appreciate you, brother. Well, thank you all for being with us and listening to this episode of the Further Gospel Podcast. For free resources and to give and check out more videos, go to furthegospel.org. Uh, go to our videos on YouTube or connect with us on social media. We're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. We're back every Monday with another episode. Until then, keep living for the gospel.