Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we are all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. My name is Kosti Hinn, and I'm joined today by a close friend and one of our contributors here at FTG, Justin Peters. Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast. Kosti, brother, it's such a pleasure and honor to be with you. Thank you so much for this invitation. Oh man, grateful to have you on. Today I want to tap you for some wisdom. You're a man who is an apologist, an evangelist, a preacher, a teacher. I'd call you a theologian. You're an educated man, a godly man. And so I want to talk to you about the gift of tongues. It's an area that I know you're not unfamiliar with. We get a lot of questions here for the gospel about it. And in my former days, I used to speak in tongues and do a lot of that. And then again, you're no stranger to the topic. So I want to dig in with you and I want to help our audience understand a few things. We're going to cover what the Bible says the gift of tongues was. And then I want you to help us understand are the tongues that people typically speak in today the same as the New Testament gift? And then if someone were to speak in tongues today, what would even have to happen if it were to be remotely identifiable as the gift of tongues? So I want to make all that really clear. So people understand what the gift of tongues is and isn't. So first, Justin, if you will, what are tongues in the Bible and how was the church supposed to operate in this gift?
SPEAKER_00Yes, Custy. Great. And I'm so glad we're doing this because it's such a widely misunderstood issue. So the first example, actually, that we see in the Bible of tongues is not even in the New Testament. It's in the Old Testament, uh, Genesis 11, the Tower of Babel. And that was uh when God came down and confused their languages. They be that's that was the origin of the different human languages. And that was not a good thing, actually, for those people that that happened, because that was a sign of God's judgment on them when they began to speak in different languages. And so in the New Testament, we see in Acts chapter 2, the day of Pentecost, uh, the Holy Spirit came, the church was born on that day, and men began to speak in different tongues. Now, most of our English translations render it that way as tongues, but a better rendering of that and a better way to understand it is these men began to speak in different languages. Uh, they were this was in the day of Pentecost, you did you did not have men speaking in unintelligible, ecstatic gibberish. They were speaking in different known human languages. In fact, uh the languages are even listed there in Acts chapter 2. There's like 15 or 16 different languages, and they're listed as to what they were. So uh what we see in the charismatic movement today bears no resemblance to the biblical gift. And also, Costia, uh, something that most people miss, and I myself miss for many years, even as I was studying this issue, is that the gift of tongues in the New Testament, drawing a parallel from Tower of Babel, was actually a sign of God's judgment. There's only one place in the New Testament that gives us a reason, a function, a purpose for the gift of tongues, and that's in 1 Corinthians 14, verses 20 through 22. And Paul says that tongues were for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers. Now, a lot of people think, oh, well, that means that when an unbeliever sees you speaking in tongues, then they will be just so impressed by that ability that they'll have to come to know Jesus as Savior and Lord because it's so close so clearly supernatural. But that's not what Paul meant. And we know that's not what he meant because in that text he quotes Isaiah chapter 28. And so now the question needs to be well, what's going on in Isaiah chapter 28? Judgment is what was going on. One of the signs that God was bringing judgment against unbelieving Israel is that one day the Jews would wake up and there would be a group of people in their midst speaking a foreign language, a Syrian, Babylonian, what have you. Not gibberish, a foreign language. And so when there was a group of people speaking in a foreign language in their midst, then they knew, uh oh, God's about to bring the hammer down. We're in trouble, God's bringing judgment. And so that is what Paul quotes in 1 Corinthians 14, 20 through 22, when he gives us a purpose for the gift of tongues, and it is a sign of judgment. Now, how is it a sign of judgment? Because Israel had rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and they crucified him. And so, as a sign of judgment against unbelieving Israel, uh, these men began to speak in different languages, known human languages, and that was a that was an indication that God's salvific gaze, if you will, his gaze of salvation was shifting away from Israel, away from the Jews to the Gentiles. And God brought a partial hardening to the nation of Israel, which actually remains to this very day. There are a few Jews who receive Christ as their Messiah, but the vast majority do not. And that's because God has brought a judicial hardening uh in a spiritual sense to the nation of Israel, which I know this is kind of a long answer, but we need to deal with these things. But uh in Romans chapter 11, uh, I think it's very clear God is going to return to Israel in a very dramatic way. Um, but in until that time comes, in a spiritual sense, not in a political sense, not in a militaristic sense, but in a spiritual sense, Israel is under the judgment of God, and that that is what the gift of tongues signifies.
SPEAKER_01What an incredibly biblical and robust answer. I think that is so helpful and brings it down to a few simple things. It it's assigned to unbelieving Jews, right? And it's for the edification in those moments, and I that's so helpful, and it presses in on my next question already. What are we seeing today? And is what we're seeing today remotely close to the Bible? Answer maybe seems obvious now that you've described all that, but talk to us a little bit about what we are seeing today. Today, people speak in unintelligible tongues, they um babble. I'm not being rude here, it's sort of a gibberish. And um, I know people make jokes, and you know, one I heard not long ago was you know, they speak in tongues and say, you know, I should have bought a Honda, but I bought a Kia. You know, I should I should have bought a Honda, but I bought a Kia. You know, they come up with these silly kind of ways to speak in tongues of with what what tongue sounds like today. Um, talk to us about some of that.
SPEAKER_00Is what we're seeing biblical. Yes. Costi, it's not. And uh you go into any charismatic church or word faith church or NAR or whatever that practices uh tongues, you're not going to see people speaking in known human languages that is not that are not known to them. You will see them speaking in unintelligible, ecstatic gibberish. Just like you said, it's gibberish, it's nonsense, it's baby talk. There is no meaning to it. And that is the and you will see uh more often than not uh many people, dozens, sometimes hundreds, depending on the size of the gathering, maybe thousands, even, if it's some big convention or conference or whatever, of people all speaking in this unintelligible gibberish all at the same time. That is when you see that that that is breaking every sing every single biblical parameter there is on the gift of tongues. Um, number one, as we said, it it is a known human language, it is just a language that is not known to the ones speaking it. It would be like me all of a sudden, instantly speaking fluent Zulu. Zulu is a known human language, it's just not known to me. I don't speak a word of Zulu. But if I were to all of a sudden be speaking fluent Zulu, um, then that would then we'd be getting somewhere. That would be a bit closer. But we're not there yet because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, uh 28-29, he says that tongues must be done by two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret, not a whole bunch of people all at the same time, not even two or three people at the same time, one person at a time, two at uh two or three at the most, and then one must interpret. So there's actually two different gifts we're dealing with here. There's the gift of speaking in languages, and then there's the gift of interpretation of languages. So, for example, if um, let's imagine that you and I are in church in the year AD 55. We're in we're at Jerusalem Community Church in the year AD 55, and the apostolic era is we're right in the middle of it, the apostles walking around, preaching, teaching, planning churches, doing signs and wonders. Uh, we've gathered for church and God gives me a vision, uh not excuse me, not a vision. God gives me a message to communicate to the rest of the church. So this is direct divine revelation from God. But instead of saying, communicating this message in English for our purposes here, all of a sudden I communicate this message in Zulu. And I can do that even though I don't know a word of Zulu, but all of a sudden I am speaking fluent Zulu because this is something coming from God. But there's a problem because you don't speak Zulu, nobody else in the congregation speaks Zulu, so nobody has any idea what I'm saying or what God is saying through me rather. But you see, Kasti, God gives you the gift of interpretation of languages, and all of a sudden you can translate what I am saying in Zulu back into English, for our example here, and you can do that even though you don't speak Zulu either, unless I don't know you as well as I think you do, but right, you don't speak Zulu, right? I cannot speak Zulu, I'm gonna confirm that. So you can translate what I'm saying in the Zulu in Zulu back into English, and you can do that instantly without ever having learned a single word of Zulu. That's the gift of interpretation of tongues, and so that is what the gift of tongues would have looked like 2,000 years ago, but that is not at all what we see today in the modern tongues movement or practice.
SPEAKER_01That's a great answer. I have a couple of objections that I know people will have. They'll say, Well, Justin, hold on now a minute. What about when Paul says, you know, the tongues of angels? He mentions the tongues of angels, you know, in in the Bible. And then he says, you know, and then the spirit. I think over in Romans, you know, people usually just grab onto whatever they've heard before in a sermon. Didn't he mention something about the the groanings too deep for anyone to understand and the the spirit is interceding? These are my groanings, no one understands them. And the tongues of angels, you know, so that's what I'm doing. Speak to both of those objections, or those would be arguments for that being the reason why they're saying bada bada shabba.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, so in in Romans 8, Paul speaks of the of the Holy Spirit interceding for us with groanings too deep to understand. You know, that uh depending on your particular translation. But um okay, so in charismatics or you know, word faith, what charismatic position, they that would say that that is uh these groanings too deep to understand, that's speaking in tongues because you know you don't understand them and we don't really we don't understand what we're saying in tongues, so that's what that is, but that's not at all what Paul was saying. In fact, when you read that, it is not uh we who uh speak in this or or intercede, it is the Holy Spirit who is doing the interceding, not us. So he is the one that's doing the action here, not us. So that is not at all. It's it's actually kind of amazing to me that people could extrapolate from that text support for speaking in tongues. It's not even remotely what is in view. I mean, just read it in English, it's not really hard to understand.
SPEAKER_01So so the plain reading there debunks that. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00The plain reading.
SPEAKER_01And then the tongues of angels.
SPEAKER_00The tongues of angels. What about that? Yeah, 1 Corinthians 13, verse 1, Paul says, uh, though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become as a noisy gong or a clinging symbol. Okay. Hermeneutics 101. If you come up with an interpretation of scripture that would not have made sense to the original recipients, then you've got the wrong interpretation. You've got the wrong meaning. Paul was writing to this in a context, in a specific context, the Corinthian church, who had become uh very arrogant in their exercise of the spiritual gifts, it had become a contest between them, basically. Look at me, look how spiritual I am, look what I can do. I can speak in tongues more than you can, I can I have the healing gift of healing more strongly than you do. Look at me, see how spiritual I am. All kinds of abuse, sin, immorality. The Corinthian church was a basket case there for quite a while. And um, so when Paul writes to them, he says, Though I speak with the tongue of men and of angels, uh he is using hyperbole hyperbole, he's exaggerating to make a point. So, how do we know he's exaggerating to make a point? Well, we know he's exaggerating to make a point just by reading the next couple of verses, because Paul then goes on to say, uh, though I have all faith so as to remove mountains, uh, Paul had not rearranged the topography of Israel. Paul didn't go around literally moving mountains. Uh he said, uh, though I have uh know all mysteries and have all knowledge, well, Paul did not have all knowledge. Uh he, in fact, he says there in 1 Corinthians 13 that now we see through a glass dimly, we know in part. So he didn't have all knowledge, he didn't move mountains, uh, he did not deliver his body to be burned, as he says in that same text. So this is clearly hyperbole. He's exaggerating to make a point. And so what Paul is saying to the Corinthians uh basically is this this is the Justin Peters uh loose paraphrase. This is this is what he says. He's basically saying this look, it doesn't matter what you think you know. It does not matter what you think you can do. If what you know and what you do is not built upon a foundation of love, it profits us nothing. You are a noisy gong, a clanging symbol. Even if I could move mountains, even if I could speak with the tongues of angels, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. And that this was a rebuke to the Corinthians. I mean, he was Paul was taking these folks out to the proverbial woodshed, he was rebuking them. So this was not something that we should be uh uh using as support for speaking in unintelligible gibberish. In fact, it's interesting that reference noisy gong and clinging symbols. Part of the Corinthians' pagan worship before they were converted was they were in Apollinarian and Dionysian cults, and part of their pagan worship was to speak in unintelligible, ecstatic gibberish. And one of the things they used to whip themselves up into these frenzied emotional states was noisy gongs and clanging cymbals. And so when the Corinthians read that from Paul, that would have been the ouch moment. That would have been like yikes. They would have known exactly what he was talking about. This was a rebuke.
SPEAKER_01Wow, spot on and so helpful. The context there shows us all that when we read the Bible, there is a context. There's something going on in the background. Will you say what you said again about coming up with an interpretation that the original audience wouldn't understand? What was that hermeneutics rule one more time?
SPEAKER_00Yes, if you if you come to a meaning or understanding of a particular text of scripture that would not have made sense to the original recipients, then you've got the wrong meaning.
SPEAKER_01That's helpful. So we can apply the Bible to our lives in unique and different ways based on our context, because we're living in 2021, but that's different than interpretation. That's application. That's application. Interpretation for the original audience. What would this have meant? That's really helpful. And you touch on something that I want to ask you about as well. We got I got a couple more questions for you. Are tongues also seen in cults and other religions even today? Uh, you mentioned in the context of what Corinth was dealing with, you know, gongs and noisy symbols and all of that were part of pagan worship. Do we see unintelligible tongues, as you mentioned as well in the context of Corinth today still? And if so, what cults or what type of religions have unintelligible tongues and these sort of bizarre experiences?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, such an important question, Constantine. And the answer to that question is yes. Yes, we do. We see people in a number of different pagan religions who speak in tongues, and they do it in exactly the same way that charismatics do, exactly the same way. Um a lot of Roman Catholics speak in tongues, and that that's a um a lot of people don't think it's a cult, but it's a it's a theological cult because of the uh blasphemy of the mass that we won't get into. But uh a lot of Roman Catholics do, some Mormons do, some Muslims, if you can believe it or not, speak in tongues, and a lot of Hindus do, Hindus especially, uh, but people in Hindu kundalini, uh you may have heard of the kundalini spirit, uh, but people in Hindu kundalini exhibit the exact same behaviors that world faith and AR do. They they have erratic jerking and shaking, they twitch around, they uh get slain in the spirit, they fall over when the when the uh guru or whatever touches them. And honestly, Cosine, you can relate to this because uh it looks exactly like what you used to do with your Uncle Benny that God delivered you out of. You can take video clips of people in Hindu kundalini and put them side by side, video clips of charismatic church services, word of faith, whatever, and the behavior looks exactly alike. They do the exact same thing, you cannot tell the difference, and they speak in tongues in exactly, precisely the same way. Unintelligible, ecstatic, gibberish, exactly the same way.
SPEAKER_01Leads me to ask you another question. Is it possible then? I'm not saying that every single person that tries to speak in tongues is demon-possessed, but we got to ask the honest questions here. Is it possible that people then are having demonic experiences when they babble or when they're shaking and jerking? Because if it's under the guise of a false religion, like a Hindu or a Mormon or a Muslim, these are false religions. No biblical Christian, true Christian, should have an issue saying that. We say that in a spirit of love. We want to see these people saved, right? But we got to call a spade a spade. If uh Hindu religion, which we know has so many infused demonic practices and so many things that are would definitely fall into the category of spiritual warfare, as the devil has a a great party with people that are lost in those type of religions, then when somebody who claims to be a Christian is having those experiences, is it possible that they're under the delusion of a false evil spirit?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it is possible. It is possible. And I won't say that happens in in 100% of the cases, not at all. In fact, I think the vast majority of the cases of people in in these services that fall and twitch and get slain in the spirit and speak in unintelligible, ecstatic gibberish, the vast majority of it is learned behavior. Uh, you can teach people how to speak in tongues. And so, in fact, some churches actually have classes how to speak in tongues, which that's how I learned at 12 years old.
SPEAKER_01I learned at the altar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, which makes no sense. I mean, if this is something for which the Holy Spirit gives us utterance, why in the world would you ever have a need to teach somebody how to do it? True story. Oh, true story, yeah. So most of it is emotionalism, hyperemotionalism. But I firmly believe, and I've seen examples of it, that there are on occasion there are demonic. Forces, real demonic forces at work. And yes, some of these people are demon-possessed. I I do genuinely believe that. I've heard testimonies from people that God has delivered out of this deception. And uh they actually give testimony. People that don't even know each other but have talked to me, both report falling over on the ground uh on their back and being held down to the floor by forces that they could not see, but they were paralyzed, they could not move. And they told me it was the most terrifying thing they had ever experienced. But they were in the middle of one of these services and they had just been speaking in tongues. So and as I said, you know, God delivered them out of that, obviously. But but yes, on occasion, absolutely there are there is real demonic activity and demonic possession.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's I would echo your answer as well. I've gotten many testimonies as well from people who have said, I know that something was happening that was not from God. Dark forces, evil feelings, um being held down, physical forces, all of those are terms and phrases that I've heard used. And I appreciate you being fair and saying, you know, not everything, and quite likely a lot of them are emotionalistic experiences or uh learned behaviors. But um, overall, yeah, something that we need to be very careful of and just not run headlong into. I got another question for you here as we wrap things up. Uh, this would be to the person who doesn't necessarily have experience with anything that happened that was demonic, or they don't really see a lot of harm in it, or they would say, Hey, you know, I was on a missions trip, Justin, and you know, I agree with some of what you're saying, and some of the concerns and you know, cautions are there, and I appreciate you saying that. So they'll mitigate up front and then say, but I heard a guy speak in a language he never learned while on a missions trip. Now, he no longer speaks Chinese back here in the States, but I kid you not, he never knew Chinese and he speaks in Chinese, and then we come home and it's crazy. You know, what was that, Justin? What was that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, another great question. So uh the first thing I would say is these stories, I've heard them too, but they are notoriously difficult, if not impossible, to track down. It's like I heard about this missionary that went into Papua New Guinea or wherever in some deep jungle and reached an unreached people group, and all of a sudden he was able to speak their language. You know, you I've heard these stories, but I have never been able to find uh real documentation of this. It's um it's kind of like Bigfoot. You know, there's there's lots of claims and there's lots of grainy pictures out of focus, you know, and Bigfoot's uh, you know, but there's no actual proof that these things exist. Uh it's kind of like that. Now, that having been said, is it possible that uh a missionary somewhere went into an unreached people group and was all of a sudden able to fluently speak their language? Is that possible? It's possible. I don't know that it's happened. Is it possible? I would have to say it is possible because God can do whatever he wants to do. But I would still say that that would not be even that would not be the biblical gift of tongues or languages for a couple of reasons. Because it's not in a church setting. Uh it it is uh in spiritual gifts are for the edification of the body, they're for the edification of the church, uh and and that's it. So um and it's and even if if that did happen, also it would not be used as a sign of God's judgment against unbelieving Israel in a missionary context, right? So that that doesn't make any sense. So it would not be, it would be a miracle if that happened, if that happened. It would certainly be a miracle, and I believe that God still does miracles today, but uh it would not be the biblical gift of languages.
SPEAKER_01What a balanced and fair answer. So you're basically saying we serve a supernatural God who could, it's possible he could do these things or moving away through evangelism or what have you to reach a people, but that that doesn't mean that the person, oh, that's the gift of tongues, and we need to now babble in our American churches, or if that person had that experience or they know someone who did, or a missionary did, that doesn't mean they come back to the US and then you know they're still speaking in that language, or they decide, you know, hey, I think I'll go down the street and speak in Spanish this week to our friends up the road with a Spanish congregation. It's not that they're not wielding this gift at will, they're going into a place, God did something extraordinary, and then everybody moved on, and God said, Yeah, I'm gonna save my sheep there in the jungle, and you were just a vessel I used for that moment. Now get out of the way. I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Sort of that idea. Yeah, we're not taking that and running with it. Now we're babbling at altars and doing fire tunnels. Right. No, it exactly, Costi.
SPEAKER_00It would be a miracle, but it would not be the biblical gift of tongues slash languages. And um and before we close, I want to throw this out there real quick too, because this is an important point. For people who say I speak in tongues in a private, it's just something between me and the Lord. I don't do it in church. Yes, I don't do it. I've heard people say this, and they're well-meaning. I have no doubt they're sincere. Uh I don't do it in church. It's just something between me and the Lord in my private prayer closet. You know, it's just something between me and God. Uh, I know they're sincere when they say that, but here would this would be my question. What for what reason does the Holy Spirit give spiritual gifts, generally speaking? What are they for? They are for the edification of the church, they are not for our own private use. They're not for our own private use. Um, for example, if you have the gift of mercy, do you go into your private prayer closet and just show yourself mercy? You know, no, I mean that's ridiculous. We laugh at that. So why do we carve out an exception for the gift of tongues? Why do we say, okay, yeah, all the other spiritual gifts, yeah, those are yeah, those are for the body, but the gift of tongues, that one I'm using for myself. That's for me. No, it's not. It's not, no, it's not. We're we're not at liberty to do that.
SPEAKER_01So good. That's so helpful. I just remembered one more thing that you debunked, and I want to highlight this just in case there's the person that's listening saying, Oh, that's all great, and yeah, oh, I'm not just doing it for myself, Justin. Um, when I am waging spiritual warfare, I pray in tongues because the devil can't understand me. Yes, everything you've said debunks that. I you that doesn't even fit in the same category. Um, it's not a real known language. The devil can't understand you. Um, the devil's probably not watching you because he's not omnipresent. So maybe he's dealing with a dictator somewhere in North Korea or somewhere else that he's trying to take over the world through. I don't know. Yeah, but maybe his demonic minions are watching you. But I don't think speaking in gibberish is gonna thwart the devil's assaults or his demonic minions' assaults, as he's been assaulting humankind for some thousands of years. I'm a young earth guy, shocker. Um sorry, another episode for another time there, people. Uh either way, if you're old earth, the human race is still believed to be only around six to ten thousand years. So um the idea being that, you know, no, the devil doesn't he's not worried because you're speaking in tongues and he can't understand you. Would you say that's another helpful sort of thing? We can put that to bed, put it to rest, and we don't need to go there.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, absolutely. We absolutely we can put it to bed very quickly. And I've heard this too. When you charismatics will say, Well, when you pray in tongues, you're praying in the tongues of angels, which we debunked a minute ago. Uh, and when you do that, Satan can't understand what you're saying. Well, there's a little problem with that, because if you want to say praying in the tongues of angels, therefore Satan cannot understand what you're saying. What is Satan? He's an angel. He's an angel. He's a fallen angel, but he's an angel. But he's still an angel. He's still an angel. So if you want to pray in some language that Satan does not understand, then the tongues of angels would be the last language I would recommend you praying in. That's what he is. I mean, you'd be better off praying in Portuguese or Swahili or something. Don't pray in the tongue. That's what he is. So it just absolutely makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01Oh, brother. Thank you so much for your ministry. Any resources you would recommend for people to dig deeper on the topic as far as books would go?
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, Costi. Uh uh dealing with those particular these particular issues, uh, Strange Fire by John MacArthur. There's another book entitled Satisfied by the Promise of the Spirit. Satisfied by the Promise of the Spirit by Robert Thomas. And it's a I had a hard time finding it. You might be able to find it on Amazon or eBay or whatever something, but that's a great book. Um, and then I'm I'm certainly not trying to sell anybody anything, but I also deal with this issue in my DVD, Clouds Without Water. Totally.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna tell everyone right after um you know you finished that answer. I would recommend everyone who's listening, uh, you want to go deeper on this issue and you want to see real evidence of what Justin's talking about. He doesn't just use hearsay or sort of say, well, so-and-so said in his DVD Clouds Without Water 2, there is video clips of false teachers and people propagating things, and then Justin teaches the truth. So it's the most beautiful picture of hey, here's what's false, and then here's what's true. And I love it so much that I got to do an endorsement for it and do a little video to let people know you should be watching this, listening to it. And yeah, you're a huge part of my life as a friend and a brother now, but also the Lord used you mightily in the early days of my conversion to teach and guide me back to scripture. So, Justin, thank you. I love you, brother. Appreciate you, and we're so blessed to have you as a contributor at Further Gospel. I love YouTube. I sure do. Thank you, brother. Well, thank you all for being with us today with this episode on tongues and the for the gospel podcast. We'll be back with an episode next week. For free resources and free videos, you can go to furthegospel.org or subscribe to our YouTube channel or subscribe to Justin's YouTube channel as well. He's on YouTube and has great teaching videos. Connect with us on social media via Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. And again, we'll see you next Monday with another episode. Until then, keep on living for the gospel.