Welcome to the Further Gospel podcast. My name is Costi Hinn, and I have the pleasure of being your host for this episode today. For the Gospel is all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. And before we jump into today's episode, I want to remind you about our conference that's coming up September 24th and 25th in Southern California. It's a dating and courtship conference called DTR, Defining the Relationship, God's Way. All the information is on furthegospel.org. So you can register, bring your college young adults, small group, bring your friends, come hang out, get a little extended vacation in Southern California before or after, and we'll dig in together for the glory of God and the next generation. On today's episode, I have invited a pastor, a friend, and a wonderful warrior for Christ, Pastor Mike Gendrin. Thank you for being on the For the Gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's my privilege. Thanks for having me, Costy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if your name will be familiar to some of the people in our audience because several episodes ago, I walked people through Roman Catholicism versus true Christianity. And I framed it that way and phrased it that way. And I gave you credit. I did not plagiarize. I quoted you and pointed people to a pamphlet and walked people through some of the differences that you propose. Now, what I love about your ministry, and I want you to share more about it, is you take direct quotes from uh Roman Catholicism, from their catechism, and walk people through the differences. I wanted to have you on in order to help our audience reach Catholics for the gospel and equip people. We had a huge response from a lot of the people in our audience asking for more resources and even ways to engage their Catholic friends and family. So, first, can you tell us a bit about yourself and your ministry? And then let's jump into the nitty-gritty.
SPEAKER_00Well, sure. I was born a very devout Roman Catholic. In fact, um, my family was very devout. My uncle was even a Catholic priest. And so for the first 35 years of my life, I believed I belonged to the one true church. And I believed that my church would eventually get me to heaven because I was trusting in what my priest could do for me regarding salvation rather than trusting Christ. And I really believed that uh God was going to grade on a curve rather than the cross. And so I spent my life trying to appease God by doing good things. And hopefully, when I got to heaven, those would outweigh my sins. But when I heard the gospel presented for the first time, it really, it really caused a crisis of faith. It caused me to start reading the Bible. And Costy, for 35 years, I never opened the Bible. Oh, I had one and I collected dust on my coffee table. But when I recognized that the Bible needed to be my supreme authority, that's when I began reading it, and I had a crisis of faith. Should I trust Christ in his word or the teachings and traditions of my religion? And being a math major with an analytical mind, I knew it was impossible to believe both. And it was during that time that I had this crisis that God granted me repentance. He gave me eyes to see the glorious gospel of grace, and it literally turned my life upside down. And one of the first things I recognized was there are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics that are deceived. They don't know the true gospel. And so I just felt compelled to begin reaching out to them.
SPEAKER_01Wow, incredible. So you don't speak from some position of you know intrigue or judgment on Roman Catholicism as some outsider. You were a devout Catholic in many ways and fully bought in, if you will.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I was an altar boy for seven years. I even taught high school Catholic Christian doctrine. Later on, I was responsible for bringing a scripture study, the first scripture study, to a Dallas Catholic Church. And so I was very involved in my religion, and I really have a heart for those that I left behind. And that's what our ministry is all about. For 31 years now, the Lord has taken us around the world. We've been to countries that are predominantly Roman Catholic. And so our ministry is designed to encourage and equip the body of Christ to reach out to this huge and most neglected mission field. As you know, Costi, there are many evangelicals today that are saying that Catholics don't need to be evangelized, that they're already brothers and sisters in Christ. And that's a result of all the unity accords that have been signed by leading evangelical voices today. And so we're up against not only the Roman Catholic religion, but also many evangelicals that don't believe that the Catholic Church represents a mission field. In fact, most people in Protestant churches believe that the Catholic Church is made up of brothers and sisters in Christ. It's just another denomination.
SPEAKER_01Wow. I mean, that touches a nerve for me. I know it does for a lot of people in our audience because we're seeing evangelical, quote, leaders uh making ecumenical strides with the Catholic Church. Uh, a lot of people in our audience, myself included, came out of sort of the new apostolic reformation and some of the more extreme charismatic fringe groups that aren't really fringe anymore. They're mainstream. And you see this across the board. I remember growing up, my uncle going to visit the Vatican. We went, I went to the Vatican. Uh, our trip to Rome was a big deal, and it was exciting and historic and drew us in. I know some local pastors, even here in the valley where I pastor, who went and saw the Pope, and they were so excited and it was a big deal. And that was really the beginning of the end for their church. They started going ecumenical and going social justice and down that train. And also, we see this now with the NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, where they're joining with Catholics and leaders like Bill Johnson and Chris Vallaton and Todd White are doing those big rallies and they're anointing the feet of you know Catholic priests with oil and they're crying and kissing. Lou Engel did that a few years ago. This is all on YouTube, people can see it. And so I wanted to ask you what are the dangers of that? And let's get into some of the clarity points here that are people need to understand. What are the dangers when not just picking on the NAR and prosperity gospel people and my uncle or whoever, but Rick Warren has done this as well. Many different mainstream leaders have joined arms with the Catholic Church, really saying, hey, we're we're just brothers and sisters here. We've got some differences, but they're blood-bought saints too. What are the dangers there?
SPEAKER_00Well, the dangers are that we neglect a huge mission field. And I wish these evangelical leaders would look closely at Roman Catholicism because if they do, they will see that they have a different gospel that's actually under divine condemnation. Paul made that clear in Galatians 1, 6 to 9. The Judaizers were trying to add the law to the gospel, and Paul drove a stake in the ground and said, Let them be accursed. When you look at the Roman Catholic plan of salvation, not only have they added the law as a requirement for salvation, but they also say you must be baptized with water, you must receive the sacraments, you must do good works in order to be justified, you must participate in the sacrifice of the Mass, which is a representation of Christ on an altar. They deny that he finished the work on the cross, and so they continue the work of redemption on an altar. And so this is clearly another gospel. And your listeners need to recognize that Catholics that attend their church are in the church that's under divine condemnation. The priests that preach a false gospel, Pope Francis, who preaches a false gospel, they're under divine condemnation. And so we need to recognize that the Catholic Church has another gospel. The Roman Catholics are victims of deception. And the very nature of deception is that people do not know they're deceived until they're lovingly confronted with the truth. And so, as Christians, we are to be truth-bearers and carry the gospel to Roman Catholics because that's the only way they're going to know they're deceived.
SPEAKER_01Can you say that one more time? The nature, the definition of deception is what again?
SPEAKER_00The nature of deception is that people do not know they are deceived until they are lovingly confronted with the truth. And that's where I was for 35 years. It wasn't until I opened the Bible and the truth stared me in the face. That was the only time I knew I was deceived. And so I had to make that choice trust Christ in his word or the teachings and traditions of my religion. And that's why the gospel tract that you talked about earlier, I present the Roman Catholic Bible right alongside the Roman Catholic Catechism. It forces a Catholic to make the same decision I made. Should I trust my eternal destiny on Christ and His Word or the teachings of my religion? It's impossible to believe both.
SPEAKER_01I'm so glad that you're unpacking that. I wanted you to repeat it because we will often talk to people, and I know our audience hears this as well, and maybe some of them have thought this before. Well, this is all really intense, and we don't want to name names, and we want to be really careful and cautious, and we don't want to press in too deep. And you know, if they're being deceived, like, come on, guys, there are churches even that you've mentioned that have orthodox statements of faith. Like, come on, you're gonna say Rick Warren is this and that because he's ecumenical with Catholics and Bethel and these people and NAR. Like, come on, you can't say that. They're brothers, we're different, we need to lay this stuff aside. The gospel is more important, we can unite around that, and there's this leaning there, and as though deception is going to always be obvious, and that we're just discernment bloggers and cage stagers, and we're just angry at the world, and so we're judging everyone. And that is such an important point that you made because people being deceived don't know it. So you have to say something, you have to point it out, and you have to help people come into contact with the truth. And yes, it is going to look good, sound good, feel good, and it's going to look orthodox. Isn't that the whole point of Satan disguising himself as an angel of light and his false prophets being workers of unrighteousness, but appearing to be workers of righteousness? Well, Mike, you have done a great service to the body of Christ. You continue to do now, decades long. I wanted to ask you to help our audience understand maybe a few of your favorite specifics that you would go to if you were explaining or confronting a Roman Catholic with the truth and comparing it to the true gospel. I did bring up your pamphlet in that previous episode, but you it was I barely scratched the surface. And we had some pushback from people who did not like even the suggestion that Mary is elevated and she's really not, they said, and she's not really a co-redemptrix and this, that, and the other. Could we start there even with Mary? And is you know, are we over pressing the point? Is it really not that unbiblical? They just honor her as his mother and the Virgin Mary. What what are some of the problems there? And then go wherever you'd like to take us.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Well, the Catholic catechism declares that Mary is the cause of salvation and that she continues to bring us the gifts of salvation. She is the mediatrix of all grace. In other words, grace that comes from God must flow through the hands of Mary in order for Catholics to receive it. Wow. So she is um definitely a distraction. In fact, um, we know from 2 Corinthians, Paul warned that the devil would come trying to divert your attention away from the pure devotion to Christ, and he uses another Mary to do that. The Catholic Church not only has another Jesus and another gospel, they also have another Mary. And it all starts with what is their authority? Your authority and my authority is the word of God. That is our supreme authority. We test everything with the word of God. But in Roman Catholicism, they have scripture as one of their authorities, but they also have their sacred tradition and also the infallible teachings of their bishops. And so they're all said to be equal, but in actual practice, it is the bishops that sit above scripture and tradition, and they twist and distort scripture so that it conforms with their tradition. And so when you're witnessing to a Roman Catholic, the first thing you need to do is to establish the word of God as the supreme authority. There's a couple of verses that I'm sure you're familiar with, Acts 17, 11, where Paul is preaching in the synagogues of Berea. As he's preaching, he notices they're searching the scriptures daily to test the veracity of this apostle's teaching. So I tell Catholics here's an apostle who wrote much of the New Testament, and yet he was under scrutiny, testing his word with scripture. And that's what we need to do with all popes, priests, bishops, pastors, every man's teaching should come under that scrutiny. So that's the first thing you have to remember when you witness to Catholics. The second most important would be to establish the sufficiency of Jesus Christ, because Catholics will be unwilling to let go of what they are doing to save themselves until they know that Christ was sufficient to do everything necessary to save sinners completely and forever. So the two most important things establish the Word of God as the supreme authority and then show them that Christ is sufficient. He has done everything necessary to save you.
SPEAKER_01That's really helpful. The question I have plays off that last uh point you made. It sounded really gracious and really helpful to assume that a Catholic, a practicing Catholic, really just wants to be saved. They're working really hard to earn their salvation, and they want and you can't remove if I heard you correctly, you you want to be careful not to remove their whole system without replacing it. In other words, they're doing all these things to be saved, and we go, yeah, you're wrong, and that's heresy, and you're going to hell anyway. That's probably not really gonna be fully helpful or a fully developed theological rescue mission. You gotta bring Christ in, and he's gonna replace that. Would you say, in your experience, you see Catholics accept the gospel in that sense? And of course, we know the Holy Spirit can only cause that, and he's the one who regenerates the heart and brings them about to that place of repentance. But do you see a lot of well-meaning desire for relief and uh sin to be made right and them to be okay, and they just want to be saved? And Catholicism has erroneously offered them that that road, and you can replace it with Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's uh two verses that have set many Roman Catholics free. It's Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, where Paul says, For it is by grace you have been saved through faith. It's not of yourselves, it's the gift of God, not of works, so that no man may boast. And so we need to encourage Catholics to take those verses seriously. And then Paul also says in Romans 11, 6, if it is by grace, it is not of works. Otherwise, grace is not grace. And so if you're adding works to Christ, then you've nullified grace, which is the only means by which God will save sinners. We must come to the cross with empty hands of faith. In fact, the only thing we can bring to the cross is our sin. Catholics must leave everything else behind. And that's really a step of faith. You mean to tell me that my church has taught me wrong all these years, that there's nothing I can do to save myself. I must throw myself on the sufficiency of the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, that's the only way you can be saved by grace alone.
SPEAKER_01Amen. I want to ask you to do something that uh I didn't give you a heads up on before we recorded the episode, but I think you can do it. Would you be willing, as succinctly as possible, it could be 60 seconds or 120 seconds, whatever that looks like, is pinpoint Roman Catholicism as heresy and then give us the tenets of the true gospel. I mean you take as much you can take more time if you need, but basically, if someone says, like, come on, this it's not heresy, guys. It's just this or that. Could you lay out whether it's soteriological, meaning the doctrine of salvation or Christological, the doctrine of Christ, just hammer down on a few key herit a few key things that make it heresy, and then replace those with truths that are gospel-centered and truly biblical?
SPEAKER_00Sure. It all starts with um who is Jesus Christ. Roman Catholics have another Jesus. He did not finish the work of redemption, the Catholic Jesus. Work of redemption for a Catholic is carried out every day on an altar. The priest is said to have the power to call the Lord Jesus down from heaven to be transubstantiated into a wafer, such that the wafer becomes the physical body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. And this is what the Catholic priest believes he's doing. And I'm going to read a quote. It's got the imprimatur of the Catholic Church. When the priest announces the words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from his throne, and places him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels. The priest speaks and lo, Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest's command. So it's not only heresy, costy, but it's idolatry. Because now Roman Catholics are worshiping a wafer as the true Christ. That's so true. In another Jesus always leads to another gospel. The Christ of the Catholic Church is insufficient. He does not save them forever. In fact, the promise of the gospel is eternal life. Roman Catholics only have conditional life. Whether or not they get to heaven depends on them. So they're trusting what they must do rather than what Christ has done. Jesus is not the only sinless mediator in the Catholic Church. Mary is another sinless mediator. So we've got not only Christologically, the Catholic Church is wrong, but that leads to another gospel, and we talked about that. But we need to recognize that the Roman Catholic Church officially and dogmatically went into apostasy at the Council of Trent. This was after the Reformation when the Reformers came out and said we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone, according to Scripture alone, all for the glory of God alone. See, before that, the Catholics said, no, you're saved by grace plus merit, faith plus works, Christ plus other mediators, scripture plus tradition, and glory was going not only to God but to Mary and the saints. And so the reformers came out with the five souls, and the Catholic Church came out with a counter-reformation. And they actually condemned born-again Christians over 100 times with their anathemas in the Council of Trent. So I say this, Costi, to explain to evangelical leaders, we cannot have unity with an apostate church. They have condemned us over a hundred times, and the word of God has condemned the Catholic Church with a false and fatal gospel. Wow.
SPEAKER_01That is game set and match the way you lay it out. And I think it always helps when we quote directly from someone's belief system. And you've pulled no punches and you've exaggerated not at all. You've quoted from Roman Catholic teaching. And so I hope our audience can understand that. And if you're a Roman Catholic who's listening to this and uh you don't like it, and your emotions are flustered and you feel frustrated or even misjudged, I would say uh look at what is being taught in your religion, look at what the Bible says and weigh everything that Mike is saying and everything that is said on this episode up against the Bible and let the Holy Spirit lead you into what is true. That would be my prayer and my hope. Mike, on that note, would you be willing to unpack some of the key tenets of the gospel and the grace of God and the liberating elements of the true gospel that set us free from having to work to earn our salvation and our righteousness?
SPEAKER_00Well, definitely. It all starts with God, who is holy, righteousness and justice are the very foundation of his throne. And so, because of that, as a righteous judge, he must punish sin. And he has declared that the wages of sin is death. But the Roman Catholic Church repeats the first lie of Satan in the garden, saying that you surely shall not die if you commit venial sins, which are said to be lesser sins. So we need to explain to Catholics that all sins are mortal. The soul that sins will surely die, Ezekiel 18 4. The wages of sin is death. When you know that God is holy and he must Sin the punishment is death. Man is in a hopeless situation because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous. And God didn't leave us in that hopeless and helpless condition. He sent us a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was born of a virgin. He lived a sinless life, obeyed the law perfectly. He went to the cross at Calvary to die in the place, a substitute for all those who would put their trust in him. Three days later, he was raised from the dead, showing that God was satisfied that divine justice had been meted out through the death of Jesus Christ. He then, 40 days later, ascended into heaven. He's now sitting at the right hand of the Father, interceding for all those who put their faith and trust in him. Costi, the only response to the gospel is repentance and faith. That was the first command of our Lord Jesus in Mark 1.15, repent and believe the gospel. And then at the end of his ministry, he said, repentance shall be preached in my name for the forgiveness of sin. So if a Roman Catholic is listening to this, they must repent of the false way. They need to get off the broad way that leads to death and get on the narrow way that leads to life. And that's what repentance is it's a change of mind. Recognizing you've been deceived, believing the true gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It's all about Jesus Christ. He's the only mediator, he's the only savior. We must trust him alone for salvation.
SPEAKER_01Listening to you unpack that, I'm struck with one thought. The gospel never gets old. I absolutely love it. It is enough to bring, I think, any believer to a place of humility, almost to tears, thinking of what Christ has done for us and how undeserved his mercy and grace is. Mike, would you be willing to unpack one or two really incredible testimonies? All stories are God's stories when it comes to conversion. I know you would be the first to say it. I would as well. Your story, powerful testimony out of Roman Catholicism, makes you no better and no different than any other salvation. Same thing with me, uh coming out of the background that I came out of, we're all just sheep who have been rescued by God. But there's these interesting circumstances that I think can help Christians realize that God can save anyone, or better said, God reminds us that he can save anyone. And that's what testimonies do is they encourage us. Are there one or two that stick out in your mind where maybe you had some doubts or some concerns, or maybe it looked like a person that was really hard-hearted, like, all right, I'm gonna share the gospel with them, but you know, I know rejection's coming. I'm ready to just kind of brush the dust off my feet and go my way. A couple of testimonies to encourage our audience to get after it when it comes to sharing the gospel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Costi, to begin with, we need to recognize that Roman Catholicism grabs people from the moment they can think. The two-year-old baby, they start to be indoctrinated that this is the one true church that we're gonna help you get to heaven if you will just submit to our authority. And so we have to recognize, too, that Satan, the prince of this world, has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel or the glory of Christ. And I love what Paul says a chapter before that, 2 Corinthians 3 18, he says that the veil of blindness covers every man's heart and it remains until they turn to Christ. And so that's what we need to do. We need to encourage people to turn to Christ in his word. Only then the veil of blindness will be removed. And that's what happened to me when I had the opportunity to witness to a former nun, Carleen Lynn, and I confronted her in her deception. I presented the truth of God's word and I shared scripture with her. I showed her that the Catholic Church had led her down the wide road to destruction and that she needs to trust Christ alone. I gave her that red gospel track, Roman Catholicism, scripture versus tradition. And after I shared the gospel with her, she took it home that evening and she told me later that as she read it, she cried out to the Lord for salvation. And then she met with me a week later and she said, I've been reading the Bible and I realize now that baptism is only for believers, and I want you to baptize me. And so I did. And then a little bit later, she said, I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm gonna be dead within a year, the doctor tells me. She said, I want you to do my funeral when that comes, and I want you to share a testimony of how God saved me by believing his word and trusting in Christ alone, because all my Catholic family members are going to come to my funeral. And so I did. I met with her as she was lying in the hospice, and she picked out all the hymns that she wanted sung, How Great Thou Art. It was just such a moving ceremony. And I just marveled at God's timing because this all took place within nine months of her coming to Christ and going home to be with Christ. And I'll never forget meeting with her in the in her hospice. She said, I just can't wait to see my savior. She was so excited about leaving this world and going to be with him. And so when I did her funeral, I did read her testimony, and I wanted her to speak from the grave just how great of a savior the Lord Jesus Christ is, so her family members could repent and trust in Christ alone for their salvation. So I think of all the testimonies that uh the Lord has given me the privilege of seeing on this side of eternity, I think that one stands out as just so moving because of the Lord's timing.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Faithfulness to talk to someone who seemingly is all in, a nun, and the Lord saving her, and then getting to preach the gospel on the back end of that through her life and death. And so a powerful reminder. Um, you know, Mike, what would be your final parting words or encouragement to Christians who are trying to get equipped more on this issue and might be a little nervous or a little scared to confront someone who has been being indoctrinated since two years old, and maybe a converted Christian who's you know only been saved a year or two months, or not a long time, or maybe a longtime professing Christian who hasn't really been faithful in learning and growing in doctrine, but now they are. What would be your encouragement? First, what do they do to get equipped? And two, um, what do they do to overcome the anxiety and the fear of, well, I'm not going to know as much as them? I'm not Mike Gendron. I can't just confront a nun. I wasn't a Catholic. What would you say to them on both of those issues?
SPEAKER_00Well, Cossi, that's what I've been doing for 31 years is providing resources so that people can be fully equipped and encouraged to reach out to this huge mission field. I've written a book called Preparing for Eternity. And it's really the meat that hangs on the skeleton of the red track that we've been talking about. And what I do is I start with the Supreme Authority for Truth, chapter one. You've got to start there, and then I go into the glorious gospel of grace. And what I'm doing during that book is comparing the Roman Catholic Bible with Roman Catholic tradition from the catechism, and it forces a Catholic to choose where they're going to place their trust. But it's also a great handbook for evangelicals so that they can know how to witness to Catholics, because it takes you through all of their heresies and it shows you the word of God that you can use in order to expose it as being false so that you can call Catholics to repent of that. We also have many DVDs that are equipping evangelicals to reach out. We've done them in a way that we can give to Roman Catholics. Our most popular one now is entitled, I'm a Christian, you're a Catholic. So what's the difference? And so it's good for evangelicals to see the difference, but it's also good to give to a Catholic because they think they're Christians, and when they watch this DVD, they'll recognize they're not. And so we've also got seven different gospel tracts. We really believe in sowing the seed of God's imperishable word wherever we go, and that's where gospel tracts come in handy. Throughout the day, wherever we go, we are giving gospel tracts away because we know that it is the word of God that's going to bring forth life to those who are dead in their sins. We've also got a set of gospel cards. Most people say they don't feel like they know the gospel well enough. So we took the 12 most important words of the gospel and put them on a card. And then the back of each card, we define each word biblically using scriptures, four bullet points for each card. And so through the books, the tracts, the resources that we have, that's our goal is to equip the body of Christ so that they can reach out to this huge mission field. Our phone number is 817-379-5300. And our website is proclaimingtegospel.org. Wealth of information for those who want to be fully equipped and encouraged to do the work of an ambassador for the Lord Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm grateful for your ministry, Mike, and it's such a joy to have you on. I want people to go to your website and I would encourage everybody listening to go and let me go further than that and support what they're doing. Uh, you are a missionary pastor, and you're reaching Catholics, and you're shepherding, and you're teaching, and we need incredible gospel partners like you. And so, as a ministry that is, quote, for the gospel, literally, we are for uh supporting Mike Gendron and proclaiming the gospel and what your ministry is doing. And so, Mike, thank you for equipping our listeners. Thanks for coming on and providing some more commentary and more context to what we shared from your the gospel tract that you put together. Are those available as well if people wanted to order those gospel tracts from your website?
SPEAKER_00Yes, they are. All of our resources are available and we ship them out the same day. So go to our website, proclaiming thegospel.org. We're here to equip the body of Christ. So thank you, Costi. It's really been a pleasure to be with you, knowing how much the gospel means to you and how it changed your life radically as well. So just really a pleasure and a joy to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. Thank you so much. And hopefully I'll get to see you again. I enjoyed getting to interact with you briefly and get to catch up with you at countryside there in uh Southlate, getting to preach there a few months back. Hopefully, next time I'm in Texas, I'll get to see you, brother. Uh, but for now, keep up the great work.
SPEAKER_00You too, Costi. Take care and blessings to you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Well, thank you all for being with us today. Again, the website is proclaiming the gospel, and you have heard from Mike Gendron today. Uh, a way to reach the Catholic community with the true gospel. Uh, for resources and more, go to for thegospel.org from our ministry. And don't forget, we're on TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Every episode drops on Monday. We've got blog articles coming on Thursday and new videos dropping every single Wednesday. For more information about the dating and courtship conference, go to for thegospel.org and click conferences, and we've got some excited thing, exciting things in store here coming up both at the end of this year and beyond. Thankful for you listening and for your support. We will be back next Monday. Keep on living for the gospel.