Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast. My name is Costi Hinn, and I have the pleasure of being your host. For the Gospel is all about providing sound doctrine for everyday people. And on today's episode, I have a friend of mine, a pastor, a brother, and a contributor now at For the Gospel named Grant Castleberry, and he is going to be talking to us about true worship, false worship, and we're going to be defining worship. Grant, my brother, thank you for being on the For the Gospel podcast.
SPEAKER_00Man, uh Costi, love you, brother. And uh it's great to finally be on the uh podcast and so excited about being a contributor for the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm grateful for your friendship, grateful for your wife and your guys' friendship to us and your ministry. Tell us a little bit about where you are right now, what are you doing, and what's keeping Team Castleberry busy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm uh like you said, I'm a pastor and uh a husband. I've got uh I'm married to Grace Anna, and we have four children, 10, 9, 6, and 1. So we're busy on the home front discipling uh our kids. And then I'm also the pastor of Capital Community Church, which is a church uh right in the heart of Raleigh, North Carolina, and just laboring to faithfully teach God's word and disciple men and women and present everybody mature in Christ, you know. Colossians 1 23, hymn we proclaim, warning and teaching everyone that we may present everyone mature in Christ. So I'm just taking that uh every day and and working hard towards that end.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Well, if you're listening to this and you are in the rally area, you should go to Grant's church. I just had the sort of getting to preach there and and be there and had so much fun. Your kids are just an absolute riot, dude. They're such a blessing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was we were we picked up Costi uh from the airport, and on the way to the church, my son asked Costi if he had ever heard Jesus Freak.
SPEAKER_01By DC Talk. Yes, they sang Jesus Freak the whole way. I took I took a video and I took a selfie and I sent my wife the photo and the video, and I said, My ride right now to church. Awesome, dude. You're doing a great job. You're doing a great job, you and Grace Anna. Well, I wanted to talk to you about worship. I want you to address this with our audience. It's a big topic, an important one, but first let's define it and set the course for the episode. Worship is usually linked to music. That's what people are gonna think when we say worship director, worship pastor. We think music, um, not to be too funny here with caricatures, but we also, I think, think of the the minister of music, the guy who's you know directing the choir, if that's your tradition in your church with the brass band, or we could think of the cool guy and he's got the colored pants and he's got the sleeve tattoo and he's just rocking and he's the worship leader and the worship guy. We have worship conferences that are focused on music and style and all of that. And so, again, not overdoing the caricature, but music is the main thing people think of. Um, define worship for us or set the context of our minds when we are talking about worship.
SPEAKER_00Man, it is the the caricature of what you just described is so prevalent. We often think of worship as simply the the time that we're singing praises to God. What I've been really helped with and and just uh has really shaped my paradigm on understanding worship is this section of scripture in John chapter four. It's really remarkable. Uh, the woman at the well, she asked Jesus a basic question. She says, Uh, you people say that in Jerusalem is where we ought to worship. My people have worshiped on this mountain. What is it? Where are we to worship? And the word that she uses for worship is proscunio, which simply means to bow down, to bow the knee, to literally get on your face. And Jesus then uses that word throughout the rest of the dialogue. And I and I think that's really telling and instructive for us to understand what true worship is. And you go look through the old testament, and over and over and over again, whether it's to Yahweh, the one and true God, or to false gods, the expression of worship is a bowing down, a getting on your face before God. And so, if you were to define, okay, what what are we talking about in terms of worship? You're you're talking about a bowing down of your heart, a bowing down of your soul to God. That's what that's what worship is. And of course, God made us with a soul or a spirit. I believe those are interchangeable uh things, but God made us with a soul in order that we might know and worship him. And what that means is that every single person is a worshiper. We are all worshiping. Everybody that you know, everybody that you've ever met, they are all worshipers. The question is, is what or who are they worshiping? What or who are they bowing down to? So when you understand that, it really broadens the scope of okay, now I'm beginning to see the implications for what this really is. And that's why you you hear Paul saying, uh, you know, in Romans 12, uh, one and two, that all of our lives are to be acceptable sacrifices to God. You know, it's it's yes, it's the corporate worship, which is the expression of our inner worship, you know, when we come together with the saints, but all of it is meant to be an acceptable sacrifice to Him, a bowing down in our hearts to God. That's so helpful.
SPEAKER_01As you're talking, I started thinking, you know, what or how am I bowing down to God in every area of my life? And so, in the friendships and the way that I fellowship with the saints in my study, my reading, in my prayer life, in our giving, our serving, all of it together, um, what you're saying really is it's a worship is a lifestyle of bowing down to God. Yes, it is that posture.
SPEAKER_00I mean, Christ calls us to be his bondservants, his slaves. We're his. Every every second of our lives is his and is meant to be lived in a bowing down to him.
SPEAKER_01Powerful. Could probably end this episode right there, and that's just a truth bomb that could go with us all week long. But I want to go further. Uh, in that passage in John 4, uh, people, if you're not familiar with this, it's where Jesus uses those words, you know, worshiping in spirit and truth. People will use that in their church, they use it in their doctrinal statement, people use it in philosophy of worship at their church. You know, we want to worship in spirit and truth, in spirit and truth. Okay, will you help us to understand, help define what is he saying when he says true worshipers are those who worship in spirit and in truth? What does it mean to worship in spirit? What does it mean to worship in truth? And then how should that impact the way we're living?
SPEAKER_00Well, I do think it is fascinating that Jesus makes that delineation between true worshipers and then obviously the negation, false worshipers. He's saying, look, an hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers, so he's contrasting the true worshippers over against the false worshippers. So this is something I think what he says next is very important, critically important. He says, the true worshipers will worship in spirit and truth. That phrase, spirit and truth, uh, is debated. You know, a lot of people uh have different opinions about what that means. Is Jesus saying that we are to worship by the power of the Holy Spirit? Is that what he means by spirit? Is he talking about our soul, our our inner being? Uh, what does he mean? Well, I think we're helped because in the next verse, John 424, he says, God is spirit. Those who worship uh the Father, therefore, must worship in spirit and truth. What I think Jesus is saying is that by when he says God is spirit, he he doesn't say that God is a spirit. He he literally says God is spirit. I think he's talking about God's transcendence. He's talking about the fact that God is a spiritual being that is above space, time, matter. He's he's not he doesn't have a physical physical body, he's not contained in time and space. Therefore, if we are to worship him truly, Jesus' explanation is that we have to worship him in the soul, we have to worship him uh as spiritual beings, which God made us. And I think this is what Jesus is saying, for example, in Mark 12, 30, a scribe comes to Jesus and he's and he's really insightful scribe would have been a Pharisee, but also an expert in all the Jewish laws. And he comes to Jesus and he asks Jesus, Well, Jesus, what's the greatest commandment? What's the the foremost thing that we are to keep in terms of the old testament law? And Jesus responds to him by saying, uh, the greatest commandment is this that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength. In other words, he's saying, you're to worship God in your soul. That that's essentially his message. That's that's the commandment. So that's what I think Jesus means by spirit, by truth. Jesus is saying that two things. First, that we have to worship God according to how he really is, to who he really is. That we can't just say, oh, I I think God is like this. Uh, I think God is going to to save all people, that God's a universalist, that God is just it doesn't have any wrath. We can't just make God in our own image. We have to understand God as he really is, as he's revealed himself in creation and the word of God, that we have to worship God truly. And that's actually one of the points that Jesus makes to the woman at the well. He says, You worship what you don't know because they had rejected a lot of the Old Testament. He says, We Jews worship what we know. In other words, we worship in truth. I also think worshiping in truth means that we worship in the way that God has told us that we are to worship. So, in terms of our corporate worship, we don't just make things up. We don't just say, Hey, let's have a prayer labyrinth in here, let's have some um, you know, let's have some juggling gospel singers, you know, juggling balls or whatever. You can you can kind of have a litany list of of things that you could add to worship, but that God has specific truth and elements that are to be in our worship, such as prayer and the reading of the word and the preaching of God's word and uh psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all those things, uh, baptism and the Lord's Supper that are explicitly stated in Scripture. So that's that's what I essentially think uh Jesus is getting at when he says worship in spirit and truth.
SPEAKER_01That's tremendously helpful, and it actually eliminates a ton of what we see today in the church world, which I think is an important conversation to have and to assess the contrast Jesus is making, then, if there's true worship, the logical assumption is there is false worship. Uh, you see today at different places and different ministries the addition of things in worship. Uh, I think of some of the personal experiences I've had where secular music is used to warm up the crowd and where uh bands will play secular music to make the unbeliever feel more comfortable, and so they'll have a performance of some sorts. I remember uh one evangelistic event at a Christmas uh service for a large mega church that we were connected to and uh at a church plant that was connected to as well, had uh gals, you know, cirque de sole thing, these girls twisting down on these nylon whatever ropes. Yeah, it was it was it was all uh quote evangelistic. And so they had these services and and it was a modest, it was not modesty, it was presented in a way that it was almost sexualized and and very worldly, and that is more common than people would think. I certainly in the conservative world you won't see it a ton, but the excuse there, the reasoning is like, come on, Grant, come on, Costy, lighten up. We're trying to win souls here, we're trying to reach the world, and you know, you're sitting around nitpicking like Pharisees. Help people understand the contrast. Is there are are things like that egregious? Do they grieve the Holy Spirit? Do they have a place in our worship services quote, or is that gonna fall under the heading of false forms of worship and misinformed worship?
SPEAKER_00Well, first, I I think it's helpful for the listeners to understand there's a lot of things, like we said, that you can do, whether it's art or playing the piano or dance or a number of things, it's all to be worship in terms of our private life. And so we're talking about the corporate worship. What does God accept and expect of us when we come together as the gathered church? That's what we're really getting at. And unfortunately, I think the state of worship in the church is absolutely dismal. It is really reprehensible, would probably be uh a better word. And you know, uh this is something that has has really pierced my heart and just thinking about what God finds truly acceptable. You know, I think we we we just think, oh, we can we can worship God however we think is best, that we can just come to to Sunday morning and a lot of us come if we're being honest, uh, with unconfessed sin. A lot of us come more evaluative of the service. You know, what is this doing for me? What do I think of the songs? What do I think of the sermon? I mean, just ask yourself, what's the first conversation you have when you get in the car after the service? Is it, oh wow, I wonder if God found our worship acceptable to him, or isn't it, or is it, man, I really like that song, or man, that the the preacher went pretty long today. Uh, that was that was a long sermon. Well, just that just those conversation points indicate whether you really believe that the worship service is for God or whether it's for you. Wow. So, I mean, we have to really change the whole paradigm of what we think about the the worship service. It's not for us, it's for the Lord, primarily. Now, yes, we're nourished and we're uh we're fed by God's word and we're encouraged and we're reproved and all those things when we come together, but the worship service is primarily for him, and so we have made worship into a man-centered thing when really it's a God-centered thing. And and what I have found just absolutely mind-blowing is that statement that Jesus makes to the woman at the well, he says, God is seeking such people to worship him. Now, just take a step back and think about that. That God is seeking worship. He's seeking worship. And so I've been telling people, look, we need to be seeker sensitive. We need to be ultra seeker sensitive. But the question is, who's the seeker? It's God. It's not it's not the the masses. We're not our worship service isn't designed to go reach people. That's not New Testament worship. Our worship is vertical, it's it's designed to please the God that we're claiming to worship. And so if if it if that's the case, then our worship should consist of the elements that God says pleases him. You know, if we really want our worship to be pleasing and reverent to him, we should go read the New Testament and say, okay, what was the early church doing in their worship services? You know, Acts 2.42, they came together, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to prayer and to the breaking of bread into fellowship. Okay, so that means that we need to have the Lord's Supper, prayer, teaching. Okay, Paul says Colossians 3:16 that we're to sing uh Psalm 10, spiritual songs. Same same thing with uh Ephesians 5, 17. Okay. Uh 1 Timothy 4, Paul tells Timothy, Devote yourself to the public reading of scripture. Second Timothy 4, he says, preach the word in season out of season. These are basic things where the apostles are telling us these are the elements in our worship service. So I'm wondering, why would we do anything else? And and who am I as a mere man to presume that I know better than God how to worship him? So, you know, in terms of all those questions, I I I think it you're really reoriented when you say it's about God and therefore we're gonna worship God in the way that He prescribes.
SPEAKER_01Incredible, so helpful. The the world we live in today doesn't think that way. The church today tends to not really think that way. If you were to talk to uh pastors and leaders right now, and then congregants or church members, what would your encouragement be first to the leaders and then uh speak briefly to people as they work through patience and maybe they come to this understanding and their their pastors and their leaders aren't there yet, or they haven't thought through these things. What's your encouragement to pastors and leaders and then to people?
SPEAKER_00Well, pastors and leaders, you know, we're recording this podcast right before October 31st, the anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. And what I love about the Reformation, and we could go on and on about that, is the rediscovery of the word of God and really the rediscovery of worship. And Luther and Calvin said, look, like we got to come back to the scriptures, right? Solo scriptura and ask the question, what does God say about worship? And there were a number of abuses in Roman Catholic worship. They were praying to saints. They they said that if you visited uh relics of of previous saints, that you receive grace, which could which could uh enable you to to exit purgatory and enter heaven. They had made uh the sacrament of of the mass really just a complete distortion of what the Lord's Supper is. Uh, they taught that baptism saved, and so they the reformers turned to scripture and said, let's go back to the book to see what worship really is. And I and that would be my encouragement to pastors is go back to the book, stop trying to reinvent uh things to get people in the door, uh, go back to what really honors God, what God has said in his word, and study it for yourself. Study worship, study the study the the elements of worship, the the forms of worship. And and God's word is, I think you'll find very clear. And for people uh just that are listening, I I would encourage them one to think about all of life as worship, a bowing down of the heart, and ask the question what in my life is outside of worship to to the one and true God? What do I need to eliminate? And uh secondly, I would encourage them to find a church that takes worship seriously. Uh, you know, there's there's so many abuses like like we mentioned earlier. Uh the church is rife with uh formalism, which is just kind of dead, dead worship apart from the heart. The church is rife with pragmatism, which is the idea that we're going to do anything which justifies largely the ends of getting people in the door and and getting money. Uh, so we're gonna add all the elements you talked about, you know, the the dancers coming down from the the ceiling and the the guys on motorcycles uh coming out on the platform and everything else. I would encourage people to find a church that that is dialing things back to uh really the the true elements of worship according to the word of God.
SPEAKER_01Yes and amen. Yes and amen to that. I want to challenge everyone listening um to ask some hard questions when you hear what Grant has explained. And if you're a church leader or you're a church member, um, is your worship defined and is it enabled the way that he's described? Does it look like the kind of worship that he has defined from scripture? Are there traps that you have fallen into or perhaps you have been attracted by and you need to ask bigger questions? And are there some hard conversations you need to have, maybe with your husband or your wife, maybe with your pastors and your leaders, or if you're a church leader together, asking some hard questions and assessing are we worshiping, quote unquote, the way that the Bible describes? Do we promote a lifestyle of worship? Are we being overly pragmatic, or is our worship about us or is it about God? Who's it for? Why are we doing this? Grant, thank you so much for teaching us, for challenging us, and for equipping us on the topic of worship. It's a pleasure, brother. I enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on. Awesome. We'll have you on to talk more and are grateful that you're a contributor. Uh, thank you all for listening. My prayers, an episode like this makes you better understand worship and ask the hard questions about worship for free video teachings to learn and share from. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel uh to make a tax-free donation or support what we're doing as a ministry or check out more about our team and our contributors and articles. You can go to for thegospel.org, for thegospel.org. For now, we'll see you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter, and we will be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.