Welcome to the For the Gospel Podcast. My name is Kosti Hinn, and I have the pleasure of being your host. For the Gospel is all about sound doctrine for everyday people. And on today's episode, I've asked my friend and a brilliant theologian, Owen Strand, to join us on the For the Gospel podcast to talk about some important issues that will both educate you and I think trigger you to stand with courage for the gospel. Owen Strand, my brother, thanks for being with us today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Costi. Great to be with you and thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, real quick, just off the bat, uh, where are you now? What's the latest and greatest? What are you looking forward to in this season of ministry and life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I appreciate that question. Uh, I am right now in Conway, Arkansas. I am uh helping lead and teach at a school called Grace Bible Theological Seminary and uh really enjoying it and um doing some writing and some stuff like that. We moved to Conway this past summer, my wife Bethany and I and our three little kids. And uh yeah, we're doing the fall stuff that everybody's doing, taking walks and literally there were pumpkin chocolate chip muffins out of the strand household oven this weekend. So winning, there's levels to this, and we're winning at all at all levels. Um, that sounds that sounds kind of snide. I don't mean that. But anywhere there's pumpkin chocolate chip muffins, there is indeed winning. So let's put winning on that level.
SPEAKER_03Amen. You're winning, you're winning where it matters most at home. And that's that's really what counts. I love it. Well, brother, I wanted to dig into um the idea of wokeness. I know everyone's been asking you about this. You wrote a book about it called Christianity and Wokeness. The book is out, it has gone far and wide, and we're praising God for that. But with for the gospel, you know this already. We like to bring the cookies down from the top shelf. It's sound doctrine for everyday people. And so I want to get into the practical applications of this. And I have had the privilege of sitting alone with you. You're such a dear brother and a friend. Recently, uh, we're at breakfast. You said some things that got my mind going, and I thought, man, we gotta do this on the podcast. And people will hear you online or see you online, and you'll drop a lot of one-line truth bombs, and that's great. But what I think people ought to know as well is you're like an iceberg. You know, the tip is showing up top, but 80% of your mass is underneath, and I've had the joy of seeing that in our friendship and benefiting from it. So I I do want to get into two quick questions regarding what you have been doing and what you've been saying regarding wokeness. Um, you have jumped into this firefight of ideologies, but you were very prudent. You were you were slow, not slow to the fight from a cowardice standpoint, but slow to jump in because I know you, and when you go all in, you go all in, all in. So it's it's it's something that I think theologians do very well and prudently. We can all learn from is you didn't fire off like a cannon overnight. Um so I think there's multiple angles of wisdom to cover. So let's get right to it. Number one, um, what did you do to prepare for the task of taking a stand? And what would you encourage people to do as well before taking a stand against dangerous ideologies? Sometimes our urges um outpace our wisdom in that. And then number two, I do want you to define wokeness and tell us why it's dangerous. But first and foremost, what did you do to prepare for the stand you've taken?
SPEAKER_00Sure. Appreciate the question. Um I came to this issue after others had already gotten to the issue. So um I was working primarily in academic and theological terms, in terms of writing and that sort of thing. I was working on the doctrine of man. So I wrote a book called Reenchanting Humanity that came out in 2019. And then out of the overflow of that, with all that was happening sexually in our culture, um, my friend Gavin Peacock and I, our mutual friend, Gavin Peacock and I, co-wrote three books called What Does the Bible Teach about Lust? What does the Bible teach about homosexuality, and what does the Bible teach about transgenderism? And you were very kind to engage that um that process of getting the word out there. So that was really the burden of my work from 2015 all the way up to 2020. And it's not that I wasn't aware of different trends happening in American society and the church with regard to race. I was, but I was pouring all my very limited energy and uh and focus into those other areas, the broader matter of the doctrine of humanity, what it means to be human. Everybody's asking the questions of identity, who am I today? So I tried to tackle that from a theological vantage point. And then I tried to do uh lower shelf work with Gavin to give people bite-sized resources on those three hot button sexual subjects. And so all of that meant that in 2020, I tried to shift my focus in 2019 and say, okay, now the Lord has allowed me to do some work in these areas, this is this is not going away. Um, we kind of thought with regard to a lot of the conversations on race and justice in American society, for example, that if we were humble and we listened to one another, uh, and we were told in in 2016 and 18 and around those years to listen to voices of color, for example, that that things would heal. And um, if we were just humble and quiet, especially if you're a white person, so-called, then we'd get a lot of the resolution we needed. The problem was primarily that there was just a lot of chatter and uh and a lot of hot button stuff and police shootings and all these things. And so I tried for my part to take my time and get up to speed and do some reading. So in January 2020, the world feels so weird to talk about after the lockdown and pandemic and everything. This feels like 18 years ago. But January 2020, I wrote a series of blogs for my Pathios blog called Thought Life on Critical Race Theory. I wrote four blogs, and that was me diving in, doing reading to prep for that, taking months to work on those blogs, getting feedback from a number of friends, around 10 to 12 friends. So that um let me get my foot in the water. And I'm kind of a guy who I need to start researching and writing in order to think out an issue. That's just how I work. And then that led to a pastor I know named Jason Redberg saying to me in spring 2020, Hey, I'd love for you to give talks on critical race theory. You wrote those blogs. So he and I were planning on that. Then the George Floyd uh death happened, and I thought, well, surely, you know, I'm not going to be speaking to that in the Minneapolis area of all things. And maybe that's God's leading. Well, Jason came back to me in the later summer and said, No, I want you to come out. His church is in the greater Minneapolis area. I want you to come out. We need all the more clarity on this issue. And Costi, you know me, you've already alluded to it. I'm a I seem to be a fairly bold guy in relative terms. I'm not nearly as bold as I need to be uh in a Christ-centered way. But I even I was like, Really? You you want you want to do a series of talks on this subject in this area of America? And he was like, Yes, we see this ideology as a threat to the gospel, and and you've spoken up, so please come out. So long story short, I came out in um October 2020 and gave uh six talks, I guess, something like that, on Christianity and wokeness. And I realized in doing the work on this issue, there's there were almost no kind of primers for Christians in particular on wokeness and social justice. Vody Baccom, unbeknownst to me, was writing his book. And there were a few other books being written at that time. I I didn't know about that. Then I got wind about Vody's book with Salem books, and uh, and then I thought uh maybe Salem books could be a place I would go. A lot of evangelical publishers did not have interest in Christianity and wokeness. And long story short, Costi, to end this very long answer. Vodi's book went bestseller um in March 2021. And then my book went bestseller in July, August 2021. And so we have just been almost hard-pressed to keep up with the demand uh from the church and even beyond that. God is gracious to use a little worm like me and all of this. That's the backstory.
SPEAKER_03That's so helpful to hear it. It sounds like there was preparation, study, thought, prudence, all things that I think a generation of Christians need to learn from and remember that while some issues are very easy to jump in on, like, for example, right now, we could all jump in on the message of the gospel. That'd be easy if somebody comes with a blatantly false gospel. But there are different times in human history where, like, this we're told up front, hey, you need to listen, and hey, there's some issues here. And you in the book up front say very fair and very honest and very authentic things about issues like racism. I read through it, and it does not say that racism is some fake thing and that there are no issues of you know prejudice against people. You acknowledge with fairness the reality of people's pain and some of the challenges in today's world. You don't dismiss any of it, you call it sin, plain and simple. And remember the long bullet point list. Of course you did, you wrote the book, but there's this long list, it's super helpful and very practical, in which you cover all that you're not saying as well. And things like that are important for people to understand when they see all the tweets and the sound bites, or they even take you out of context or build a caricature, like, oh, here goes Owen just popping off about whatever this, you know, white guy, even though you know there's so much more to it than that. And so I wanted people to understand the backstory to encourage, you know, Gen Z and even millennials. You don't read a blog article and then jump online and give your, you know, your reel or your TikTok sound bite and give your opinion. Now you're an expert. There's time, prayer, prudence on some of these issues, and we need to be slow and measured. But when it's on and when we're clear, brother, it's on. And you've done a great job with that. So could you define wokeness now? I know you've done this about 150 times, but there's a lot of people in our audience that haven't heard this defined very fairly and very well. And then tell us why it's dangerous because again, people go, oh, wokeness, what a broad brush term, this and that. Man, you have dialed this in. So take us there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I did try to do a lot of that work before I get to the definition. Um, I took last summer and fall 2020 and just read book after book and uh and and even beyond that, kept reading, was reading before that, but I really dialed in for my talks that I mentioned in fall 2020, Christianity and Wokeness. And um, it it took me a while to get my arms around this. And yes, as you get into the literature on a subject like this, you recognize that there is real sin and real pain in the American past, for example, and there's complicity of the church in different places with that sinful past. And so I said this in the book in Christianity and Wokeness. I say, when you're reading James Cohn on lynching, uh, for example, you understand the searing anger that is in Cohn. That should not at all dispose you to Cohn's anti-gospel liberationist theology solutions. But look, as a hopefully fair-minded objective thinker, uh, as best we can be, you're aware that sin has that searing nature to it. And you shouldn't wave a hand at that or dismiss that. What that should instead do is sharpen your focus so that you're honest. You should be totally free to be honest as a Christian man or woman, as a Christian ministry worker, as a theologian, as a pastor, as a shepherd. And so I try to do that. I try to make clear that wokeness means being awake to the nature of systemic uh injustice in America. Uh, that's a quick definition of it. And what that ends up meaning is that you see racism as a systemic problem, really a structural problem in a neo-Marxist way. Marx argued that it wasn't so much individual action that mattered in terms of economic oppression of the rich over the poor. It was their structure, it was the group you belong to that matter. So, in in racial terms, critical race theorists and woke voices would agree with one another in arguing that if you belong to the racial power structure, white people or whiteness, the white social construct in America, then you effectively oppress people of color. You may not know it, you may not intend to, you may never say anything racist in a conversation or something like that. Just by virtue of being a member of the power group, the majority group, you are you are oppressing others. And that goes many other places uh as well, Costi. Any group, basically, that is a majority group that is the norm, whether it's thin people over fat people, whether it's straight people over queer people, whether it's parents who have authority and power over children, um, on and on it goes in terms of an intersectional worldview. All of those majority power groups are oppressing the minority groups, and they really need to be overthrown. And that's basically what social justice is. I'll just do a lot of terms at once here. Uh smorgus board. You didn't know we were going to be saying that word on the podcast today. But um let's go. The smorgasboard means that um social justice is kind of what we saw last summer, summer 2020, when there was all this destruction of the existing order, literally bricks through windows, people getting shot, that sort of thing. All of that you can trace back to an overthrow of the existing power dynamics in America. And that's really what wokeness, social justice, critical race theory, and intersectionality are aiming at.
SPEAKER_03It's heartbreaking because it sounds like it mutes the genuine conversations about sin and challenges in our society that are the result of the fall of man, which is something that is just people have talked about for years and is the norm of Christian ministry and life in the church. And then it also sounds like it elevates outright rebellion of authority, which again becomes a sin issue in the issue of man's core problem, which is sin. And so, again, the extremes of it all seem to mute one conversation that now you know you can't even have a normal conversation about some of the general sinful practices of humanity in all facets and regards. And then you have this extreme rebellion against authority. Where is this most prevalent, or where are some of the prevalent spheres that it's happening? Um, is it school system? Is it government? Is it all of the above? And if so, what are some ways that it's manifesting in these spheres of society?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question. At the broadest level, at the level of worldview, I'm gonna say something that may surprise some listeners because we're we're kind of in an a-political age in terms of the Christian church. A lot of these things that you and I are discussing, and I give you credit for raising these on your podcast, a lot of these issues that we're discussing here and many others we could go into are considered controversial. And if they're controversial, then the normal play for younger pastors, especially today, is to opt out and say, well, we're third way on just about everything. We can't, we're already losing enough people because of the exclusive claims of Jesus Christ, right? Uh, and whatever other doctrinal matters you want to raise, the the inerrancy of scripture, uh, complementarianism, et cetera, and so on. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lose uh more ground because of politics. Politics is going to be controversial. It is controversial, it will be until the end of the age. Red and blue are gonna fight. Um, yeah, a fair number of younger pastors and younger Christians would say, yeah, there's some there's some issues there to think through, pro-life and that sort of thing. But again, I'm going to lose as a Christian in a fallen world, and I'm not going to lose for those matters. I understand that perspective. I get it. And we shouldn't want to take on more water than the ship can hold as Christians. But what we need to be clear about is that that kind of mentality can, if you're not careful, breed a kind of neither left nor right mentality when it comes to politics. And that makes anything that is political a jump ball. And that means, in turn, that younger Christians don't get instructed about anything really that is political. And that is why, and I see tweets from frustrated pastors or voices or academics about how so many uh Christians turn to Fox News and the older generation or how the younger generation turns to Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan and Douglas Murray, whoever it may be. Part of why they turn Costi to those voices is that their instincts are that the side of truth is in general siding with the conservative movement, which is right, which is correct. And they're not getting any discipleship, they're not getting any worldview instruction from their pastor. Like again, remember it's a jump ball. So pastors not touching it.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm putting a lot on the table here, but all this means that wokeness has made hay, wokeness has sprouted like a forest overnight in neither left nor right soil. And here's the problem. Here's where it comes to a head. And I'll I'll I'll lay my warrior sword down here in just a second. It comes to a head in that we're we're being trained that rightism, conservatism basically, and leftism, again, are basically the same. There's corruption on all sides. There's sin, as you were talking about a minute ago, on all sides. Let that be clear. I'm not equating biblical Christianity with the Republican Party or something like that. And there's a much broader discussion to have here. But fundamentally, leftism is poison. It's poison, it's resulting in more than 60 million babies aborted. It's teaching our children that there's no such thing as manhood or womanhood. It's um enlarging government by the hour. Uh, it's attacking religious liberty. And so, what I want the younger generation to understand is that wokeness isn't an isolated problem. It's advancing in many cases because leftism, more broadly, is unidentified and unchallenged. And so there's a lot of work to do here.
SPEAKER_03You just painted the entire picture as a worldview. It's a worldview, it's not some isolated little controversy that we dive into and we deal with and say, well, A plus B equals C, and here's where it is, and so and we just kind of move on. Right. It is a worldview. And I think another thing that's so helpful, so spot on, is the way that left and right have been painted as sort of equally wrong, equal extreme. So we sort of throw it all out and we go with the third way. Um would this be one of those issues where because there's there's middle ground on some things in life, like secondary doctrines and that which doesn't, you know, equate to heaven and hell and all that. But in the end, would you say that we're in a season where if pastors are are living too much in the middle of the road, they're gonna get run over? And they it's not about, you know, I'm a Republican, I'm a Democrat, I'm blue, I'm red. It's but at least take a stand from a worldview standpoint and speak to the issue. Would you say that this is something that is going to continue to run over leaders who may even have the best of intentions? They're operating on, you know, 20, 30 years ago of like, hey, let's just, you know, live in balance and in the middle and you know, don't get and it's a time for clarity and conviction.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's been a time for it, but a lot have opted out in different ways and for different reasons. And and we don't want to politicize the pulpit. So, as you were alluding to a minute ago, there's real cause for approaching political matters or however you want to frame them, worldview matters, perhaps even better, with with care. Um, no pastor should let his pulpit be hijacked by any uh broader interest. The pulpit is there for the proclamation and declaration of God's truth, speaking the truth in love is what we are about, Ephesians 4:15. But fundamentally, we're in a we're in a desert theologically and in terms of truth. We just are. And um, many so-called shepherds have have dropped back from forget political formation, okay, worldview formation. You have to cover abortion in in your in your discipleship of your people. I don't choose this setting. It's gonna come out from the pulpit from different texts, but it should be coming out in other teaching settings as well. You have to cover androgyny, you have to cover transgenderism and homosexuality and what I call neopaganism more broadly. You you have to cover religious liberty. Um, if religious liberty is taken from us, we're still gonna be Christians and we're gonna be Christians in jail and we're gonna die for Christ if necessary, but man. A lot of us would would really love to have some religious liberty and would recognize in a place like Acts 22, 22 to 29, that Paul draws upon his Roman citizenship to stay in the game and pre keep preaching the gospel. So actually, there's a weird, usually totally unremarked about connection between citizenship and gospel preaching. Again, I I think I've set us on like seven different podcasts here at Costi as if wokeness wasn't enough. But yeah, I just want pastors to to re-enter the ring. If you're frustrated about your people tuning into Fox News or Joe Rogan or whatever it may be, uh take this as an opportunity to um to do some serious discipleship. By the way, churches that are into serious disciple discipleship today are are experiencing in many cases a boom season because the sheep are starving. So this is a great time for that.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Amen. I I love that. I think the thing you said to me recently at breakfast when we were in North Carolina together, uh, you talked about being a line setter. And I want you to speak now for the parent, the church leader. You've already alluded to it, but I want you to go even deeper into the role and not just, well, these guys need to, you know, pastors need to get in the game and speak up. What is the call, even from scripture, if you want to get kind of Pauline on us and you know, view us all as a sort of Timothy, and then the next generation, which tends to be honestly, Gen Z is very dogmatic. We're seeing this even with our church plant. We've got like 30 or 40 already in our core group that are all college young adults, and man, they like the lines are in the sand. They love dogmatism and clarity, but then liberalism does too. And we're seeing four-year-olds in makeup, and we're seeing you know, 15-year-olds decide that they're a boy one week and a girl the next. So dogmatism loves loves itself right now on all sides, but overall, people are looking for clarity. What would you say to parents, church leaders, next generation about being a line setter? What is a line setter? And speak to us on that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, it's grounded biblically. We always have to ground our thinking biblically, uh, in Titus 1 9, uh, where Paul tells um Titus to give instruction in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it. And so the the pastor's work, the elders' work, not just the senior pastor, but the elders' work is to give instruction in the truth, uh, and then to um oppose those, oppose those, not that, but oppose those who contradict it. There's a those there, not a that. So um that means that um we have to establish lines. Now the scripture establishes those lines for us, but in God's providence, God has appointed men in the local church setting to be the elders and shepherds and pastors who set those lines. And then every Christian uh as a member of the body of Christ, as a member of a local church, participates in that work and supports those who are setting those lines. Um, so that's a biblical grounding in terms of a historical grounding for me personally. I was reading J.I. Packer's biography by Leland Riken, great biography. And in it, at some point, uh Riken quotes J.I. Packer is saying, My work, my ministry is to make ministers and establish consciences. Make ministers and establish consciences. And it was like a bolt of lightning went through me reading that in my basement in Kansas City. I was like, I already liked Packer. I disagree with him on some things, but I already really liked his model. Uh, and I was like, that explains J.I. Packer to me. Again, he got a few issues wrong, but man, he was so good on substitutionary atonement and the exclusivity of Christ and numerous matters. And so that for me became a kind of uh uh description of what I want to do. I want to make ministers train pastors, and I want to establish consciences, which means hard to say, but means uh set the line. There's a line, and you need to be on the side of God's truth and not on the other side. Uh, that is truly the side that matters, that is the winning side in history, uh, God's truth. And so what we need today, and what people are flocking to, are shepherds who set the line uh in love, speak the truth in love, but nonetheless set the line. And it's tragic. I'll just say this quickly here. It's tragic because sometimes pastors, I think, get acclamation and get a response, and the church grows and they start thinking in a very worldly, wicked way that we can all understand, ah, it's me. They're drawn to my charm, they're drawn to my eloquence, they're drawn to my good looks, they're drawn to my learning, whatever it may be. Where in a lot of cases, what people are drawn to is in this world of lies, in this empire of fiction that we're living in, there's a man who stands on the truth. And people flock to that, at least in a lot of cases. And so, God give us more men like that.
SPEAKER_03Amen. I love that. People might say, Well, Owen, come on, man, like we should just love people. Let's just love people. That's the best thing to do. Um, okay, how is it been loving to call out wokeness? And what would you say to people? Why is it loving when you're calling out wokeness and you're going at an issue that's sensitive in today's culture?
SPEAKER_00The ministry of truth is the ministry of love. The ministry of love is the ministry of truth. There aren't two different ministries and you know, reform types or expository preachers or whatever, how whatever term you want. You know, they do the truth stuff, and then the other guys do the love stuff. No, and let it be said, we're all a work in progress. We all stumble. I fail both in both forms. I fail to minister truth as I should, and I fail to minister love as I should. So let's just start there. Let's not start as if anybody has the market cornered in either direction. We all stumble in many ways, James 4. And so I do too. Um, but fundamentally, I'm trying to um have a biblical ministry. A biblical ministry is a proclamation of truth ministry. You think of Paul and Acts 17 going into the Areopagus, just entering into the melting pot of ideologies and worldly philosophies and throwing down, and not doing so uh in an evil way, but doing so in a convictional, unabashed, fearless, reasoning, uh, even gentle way. Uh that that is a that is a display and an act of love, what Paul does in Acts 17 in the second half of the chapter. And that's that's what the apostles are doing. They are taking truth uh to people who live in lies. And that is what we do. So um Paul says in 2 Corinthians 10, 3 to 6, that he's he's about destroying strongholds. He's he's trying to destroy lofty opinions in order that we would take every thought captive to Christ. And so when you are ministering truth and standing on truth, you are reaching out in love. We're always striving, Galatians 5, 22 to 23, to bear the fruits of the spirit in that ministry. And it is possible, well nigh possible, to minister truth in a fashion that that is is not hitting the biblical standard of of love and graciousness and so on and so forth. But Costi, we let me just be real, we don't have too many who are fearless proclaimers today. By a factor of roughly one to 100, we have far too few fearless proclaimers. The solution then is not to get red-faced and shouty. The solution is to strive to speak the truth and love, to strive to bear the fruits of the spirit at the same time that we stand on the word of God. Not an easy uh balance to hit for anyone, but again, we have a truth deficit today, and we pray we can try to help there by God's grace.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Everything you're describing is indicative of Paul's ministry. It just screams it when he said, I never, I never shrink back from preaching the entire, the whole council of God. Tells Timothy, the goal of our instruction is love from a pure conscience, sincere faith, guard your life and doctrine. They'll preserve yourself and those who hear you over and over and over again. I hope people are hearing and I hope you are listening or understanding. This isn't, you know, an Owen Strand thing or his personal idea or some conservative rah-rah speech. This is Paul the Apostle, the Holy Spirit breathing through his pen and scripture instructing us to set the line, to establish moral conscience within God's people, to make ministers and to hold sound doctrine in the highest regard. That is love. It is love to do that, and you're gonna be hated for it. They hated Jesus first. That's what he told his disciples. You're gonna be attacked, you're gonna be falsely accused, and you're even gonna be questioned. Like, should you really be doing this, or is that really the focus? Or, you know, you've kind of got off picture here or off course. You know, that is that really the gospel, you know, of all these questions, just like the serpent who came to Eve and said, Did God really say? You know, is that really it? Constantly, because spiritual warfare is a battle for your mind. Oh, and if you will, to finish, explain to people the the ugly here of spiritual warfare, that it is a battle for the mind, that you're dealing with ideologies and how they should be praying and preparing and also acknowledging this is war and it's a war on truth, and we don't need to be nasty and ugly, and we don't need to, like you said, get red-faced and shouty. But speak to the heart of everyday people that there are times where spiritual war and the battle is inevitable, and we need to jump in to that fight the right way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is not a diorama season, you know. Put put your little Christianity and your little your little display, and uh everything is nice and neat, and put your little couch here and little swimming pool there, hot tub. This is this is desert Christianity, baby. This is this is intense. This is, you know, you've got like you've got a pack on your back, and you've got a water tube uh directly in your mouth, and you're just you're just trying to make it to that mountain range. These are these are tough times for Christians, and it's a time to be fearless and to endure. I I'm thinking uh per the previous matter we were discussing of Apollos in Acts 27 and 28. Let me just read this real fast because I think it relates to what you just asked and what we're kind of working through here. Um, when he wished to cross to Achaia, this is about Apollos, the the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed. How did Apollos, Acts 18, 27 and 28, help? This is a great question to ask, right? How did he greatly help those who through grace had believed? I want to know the answer to this question. If I'm a young Christian man or woman, how do I greatly help others around me? How do how do I greatly honor God by extension? What do I do? Verse 28. He four, he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus. He powerfully refuted the Jews in public. And and so to connect these two things, um, powerful refutation of lies, of godless ideologies that seek to take the church captive, Colossians 2.8, greatly helps the sheep. Now, I have a little bit of a weird role in that I'm in uh I'm in a seminary, I'm at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, this small school, and and I do theology and apologetics kind of for a living. And I think that's God's call to me. Not everybody, most people are not called to that. I don't mean in terms of greatness of this role. I mean it's just a bit of a unique role. But every Christian is called to know the scripture. Every Christian is called to love God with heart, soul, mind, and strength. Matthew 22, 34 to 39. And then standing on God's truth, then love neighbor as yourself. Loving neighbor, of course, is does not mean doing what your neighbor wants you to do, first and foremost. There's going to be a lot of things that in loving your neighbor as a Christian, your neighbor doesn't feel loved by. Fundamentally, so you stand on the love of God, you live it out by God's grace, and then you love your neighbor as yourself. That is a that is a life and and worldview in which you're striving to know God, you're striving to know God's truth, love God with your mind. And then as you're speaking truth to fellow Christians, you're ministering, you're greatly helping the church. And you're also out of bounds, man. You're beyond the church boundaries, so to speak. The world is your mission field. You don't want to live right by the chapel. You want to live right by the gates of hell. And you want to proclaim truth to greatly help the lost, lost just like you and me, no worse than you and me, no better than you and me, lost, living under that empire of lies that we were talking about. God's grace is when a Christian speaks truth to a lost man or woman, and then God's spirit works and regenerates them. So this is what we're about. I get to play a teeny tiny little role. There is a real cost to this, though. And that's the last thing I'll say. There, there is bark that comes off the tree when we speak the truth, even speaking the truth in love. Everybody's got to know this. They don't hate you because you're doing it all wrong. You and I are a work in progress. They hate you, Matthew 5, 10 to 12, because you're you're walking with Christ, because you're speaking Christ's truth, uh, because you're standing up for righteousness' sake. So calibrate expectations accordingly.
SPEAKER_03That is how I want to end this episode. Brother, thank you. That is edifying, sharpening, lights of fire under the backside, if you will, of Christians or under the feet to either get up off your seat and get going. Or if you're uh you know feeling the water, you're walking right now, maybe time to run and get it going for the glory of God and the good of his people. Uh, brother, thank you again. The book is Christianity and wokeness, right?
SPEAKER_00That's where people get it. Um, you can get it. Amazon books a million, Christian book distributors. Anyone who wants to, it's always cool to try to keep Christian books. You got more than a healer doing well, great book. Um, out. It you know this, it's always helpful to have Christians support your books in secular places. So if you if there is a Barnes and Noble within, you know, 50 miles of you, please drive out. Um, I can't believe I'm saying this in public. No, I'm being silly, but but if you can buy it from those places, that's great too. I'm just thrilled to have the conversation. I'm not I'm not in this for book sales, I'm not in this for numbers. Uh nobody's getting rich off this, but but by God's grace, you know, we get to be in the ministry of truth. Amen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, our our audience knows we talk often, even with more than a healer and other things. People have asked, hey, where's the best place to buy the books? And we've talked on our show about algorithms and exposure, and a lot of false teachers and different people blow up on Amazon and they get more exposure because people are buying their books in those secular places. So the best thing you can do if you're listening to this is go to Amazon.com or go to Barnes, um, even places like Christianbook.com and others, they'll put it in the catalog, they'll put it different places, it'll get more exposure, end up in Hudson News in the airport because they're all just trying to sell books that and put out what people are buying. So um do that and continue to help this work go further. Uh, thank you so much for listening. Those of you who have continued to listen and download and share to the For the Gospel podcast and for your support. For free video teachings and more, you can go and subscribe on our YouTube channel to check out our team, our contributors, our ministry philosophy, and where we're heading. You can go to for thegospel.org. For now, we'll see you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, and we'll be back next Monday with another episode. For now, keep on living for the gospel.