Welcome to the For the Gospel podcast, where we're all about sound doctrine for everyday people. I'm your host, Kosti Hinn, and on today's episode, I have asked my brother, my friend, and one of the first contributors to For the Gospel and the builder of our first official website as a ministry, the founder of Redeeming Productivity, Reagan Rose. Welcome to the podcast, brother.
SPEAKER_01Hey, brother. It's really good to be back with you.
SPEAKER_00This is fun. Awesome to have you on. Just hearing your voice reminds me of like early episodes on the podcast. If anyone has not go back and listen to like the first few, and it's Reagan's in the mix. He's on there.
SPEAKER_01I was thinking of that Randy Alcorn episode just the other day. I'm reading one of his books right now when we had him on. That was so fun.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so good, man. Well, we're excited for all that God is doing through you at Redeeming Productivity. And of course, you're still one of our key contributors here at For the Gospel. And you just wrote a book on video games. It's a huge topic and a hot topic. I had the great pleasure of endorsing the book, having read through it. It was phenomenal, and it was such a joy to endorse it. Quick kind of testimony backstory of why it hit a nerve with me. I was the guy in college, in high school, and then even into the early years of marriage, who was ranked on like NHL. I was Canadian, so you know I love playing hockey. But then NCAA football, and then Call of Duty was a thing, and Halo. And I had the headset, Xbox Live, yelling into the headset at people till the wee hours of the morning that had like Australian accents and British accents because people are on from all over the world. And I, in college, was addicted to video, like it was the thing that we did when we were not on the field practicing or playing. And it gave me a focus, it gave me something competitive, and it definitely something came alive in me. The harm I saw in it was when I first got married, it was like, hey hun, like how you doing? Let's eat some food, hang out, and there's there was no kids, there's no just first year. So I would just fire up the sticks. We call it fire up video games and just go. And I remember having to kind of come to grips with the neglect of spiritual discipline and marital growth and all of that. The first year was a crash course in adulting for me in many ways and just conversion in general. So all of that was part of that. But I know other guys have had great experiences, and so your book is really helpful. Could you start by giving us some insight as to why you wrote the book and what you hope readers will take away from the book?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, my story similar to yours. I uh I got really into video games in high school and then in college too, and even past college. And same thing. It was the it was online games. I never was that interested in like uh a single player. I didn't like the I didn't care about the story stuff, but the second you could like own people on a game, like there was the competitive thing came out in me, uh, I couldn't stop because I had to get better, I had to beat people, I had to just keep playing and playing. And even like the you know, the role-playing games where you would just grind for hours to get better at it, I couldn't stop. So like I was definitely addicted to games big time. And like you said, I don't think uh that's that's not the only concern that that there are to have with games, but I think a lot of people do face that. And so when uh I actually started doing the research for this book several years ago before I ever had a contract or anything, just because it was a passion project, and to me, here was the big question. It wasn't, are video games bad? The question was why are they so good or why are they so fun? What I wanted to understand just for my own sake was what is it about a game that I can play that for hours and hours and hours, but you know, I can binge watch shows or movie, but never nearly, not with the same level of engagement that I do when I'm playing games. There's like almost nothing, I don't think there is anything that I've ever done that I could just be so laser focused on. And so that had me diving into the Word, thinking about the human heart, how has God designed us? And so what I'm hoping for with the book is it's definitely aimed at students, like middle school, high school, college, but I tried to write it in a way that would be helpful for parents uh or even pastors that are helping counsel young people through this. Um, but I wanted to be sort of uh an older brother type thing. Because I mean, I don't know if you encountered this, but sometimes you get browbeat about video games. Like it's like you're right, it's like the unacceptable form of entertainment, you know. Meanwhile, the guy who's who's telling you that you know you need to grow up or something, they're they're um watching football all day on Sunday, and you're like, well, what's the difference? You know, I think a lot of young people have had that experience with games. And so I wanted to come along and say, okay, let's kind of come at it from a positive standpoint. Like, I'm not anti-video game, uh, but what is it about them? What are the things that that make video games interesting and fun and engaging, and what does that tell us about our heart and what God has actually made us for and our mission in this world?
SPEAKER_00So good. You mentioned brow beating. Okay. Um, here's my caricature or potentially my very accurate summary statement of what people say. Gaming, hot topic, comes up in a sermon, and you know, let's say it's you or me, and we're preaching this thing, and we're we're going, like we're going for this. And we we come out of the school of you know, hard knocks on this thing where we sort of got schooled in being a bad husband in my case, the first year of marriage, or a bad steward of time in your case. You're just okay, so we go the other way and go, well, this thing is bad. Vide games are bad. So here's kind of the the line. You know, someone's up there preaching, you know, too many of you little you know man boys sit around with your headset on, playing Call of Duty into the wee hours of the morning, and you don't serve the church, and you ignore your wife, and you act like Peter Pan, you know, it's time to grow up. Time to grow up and get the headset off your head and get a Bible in your hand, and you know, just go we go hard. So dissect that from a few angles. Is there truth to some of that caricature? Is is there a conviction that should settle in on certain guys? Like, is that did did you or I need to hear that? And you know, should guys just go and dump the Xbox, you know, and then maybe segue that into another question. If not, or if that's only some people that need to hear that, does gaming have a redeemable element or some aspect that edifies it? But let's start with the the challenging caricature that I just threw out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think there's an element of truth in there. Um it is I think from I mean, this is more of a pragmatic side, but I think those are unhelpful, like those kind of rants or those kind of brow beans are unhelpful, even from a perspective of like, are you really gonna help somebody by just beating them over the head and helping them you're not gonna help them understand that? Like that when I heard stuff like that, it just I just brush it off. I'm like, they don't know what they're talking about. You know, it sound yeah it seems hypocritical a lot of times. Because like like I said before, I think um video games are sort of like a taboo uh entertainment medium, but in many ways there there's really no reason for you to to elevate um watching movies or reading reading fiction books or something over this, it's just a different medium. That being said, there is there is an element of truth to it. There are and and this is I think it's really prevalent with guys. It's more uh it's on the rise with girls too. It's um female gaming, uh, that percentage goes up more and more every year. But there is an element that of taking responsibility for real life. And that's the thing at the end of the day, you know, we can talk about that. I do want to we'll talk about the redeeming qualities of them. You know, there's the art, there's the the storyline, there's the uh you can learn um problem solving skills. There's a lot there's so many good things with games. And like I said, I'm not I come across as anti-game sometimes. I'm not, I still like games, but it's not real. And that sounds obvious, but it's not real. And you have, I talk about in the book, we've been given a quest by God. Like when you get saved, right, you you your sins are forgiven. You're you're you're justified before God because of Christ's sacrifice. But one of the things that is like so amazing about the Christian life is you're not just hanging out in the waiting room for heaven. You get purpose, you get a purpose of gl glorifying God with every moment of this life. And I think it's kind of like in games, you know, the like the RPG ones, you're given a quest and there's like side quests, right? Little side missions you can go on. And the the analogy I use in the book is games themselves can become like a side quest or a side mission that distracts you from the main storyline, the main reason you're here. And if you if you spend too much time on them, you will neglect reality itself. And and the most important uh part of why you're here, which is to bring God glory. And there's eternal value to that mission. And so I do think uh some of us, you know, we need a wake-up call. We do need to recognize look, even though there may be good things about video games and they're fine to play, moderation is key and recognizing this is a big thing uh with the addictive quality of them, recognizing that there is particular temptation to overdo it with video games more than other mediums. And some people, you know, just dispositionally you're more given to that, like I know I am, and probably you you were too. Yeah. Uh but you have to be cautious of that. You know, if someone uh I I I didn't use this analogy in the book, but like I think about in terms of like alcohol or something, right? Like the Bible doesn't say drinking itself is a sin, drunkenness is a sin. And we recognize that there's a there's a temptation there to overindulge. Uh, and because of that, what do we do? We treat it with caution, we treat it with with discernment. And I think uh too few of us do that when it comes to games. We don't recognize that um it can really take over if we if we are given to that addictive aspect of it.
SPEAKER_00Excellent wisdom, man. Listening to you talk about it. I'm going, man, I wish Reagan was my youth pastor when I was like 16 and 18 and 19. And I mean, it's helpful to acknowledge, yeah, some of you need a wake up call. Also helpful to realize that young guys are smart. We're cocky and we're rebellious, but we're smart. Let's give young men some credit. They're sitting there thinking, okay, great. I already know what you're doing right now. You're coming down hard, and I totally get it. When I'm sitting there with my headset, I'm a little man boy. Okay, that'll preach well. But let me see your calendar preacher, man, and let me look at your family life, and then let me see. Do you like football? College football? You watch the NBA? Wait a minute, do you scroll social media? When's the last time you watch a Netflix movie, a Netflix series? When's the last time you went down a YouTube rabbit hole? Young people are very smart, they know the amount of time wasters that are out there, and so when you go at video games with this aggressive thing, again, it preaches well and it sounds great. And let me just raise my hand. I've done it. I've gone at this stuff, usually with the heart, if not every time, with the heart of going after young Costi or young Reagan and doing the wake-up call moment. But the reality is you and I have to be ready to answer that young man or young woman when they come up after the sermon and say, I totally agree with you're saying and I understand. But and they start listing all the other time wasters. Look, there's an entire generation, they're a five-screen generation now, and they are very aware of how addicted their parents are to Facebook scrolling constantly. So, yeah, it's easy to pick on the kid in the headset and do the caricature of you and your mommy's basement playing video games, but that's an old storyline. The new era, we see a lot of time wasters. And yeah, how how do you then discern between pointless hobbies and purposeful ones? You have hobbies, I have hobbies. Video games, you've already said, they have redeemable qualities about them. How do you discern between pointless hobbies and purposeful ones?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I think, you know, there there is this is I say this first. There is value in rest and recreation and something that is for, you know, all other purposes, maybe perhaps pointless. You know, there's something too sitting in the hammock and reading a good book. And that's not a theology book. It's just some, you know, you can do that. Um and there's something to playing video games just to unwind and relax. But uh again, it's it's when it takes up an inordinate amount of your life. And now you're talking in terms of hobbies, like we're all gonna have things we do for recreation. So what what makes one that's uh that's better than another? And I would say that a lot of it comes down to dominion, right? What what God created us for. Um and I mean this in the sense of, you know, in Genesis, that God God created us, male and female, to to subdue the earth, right? They he put man and woman in a garden to keep it, to work, to build it. And there's this this aspect to our DNA, and and really it's it's more than that, it's the image of God in us that wants to build, that glorifies God in our creativity and in making things. And there are so many great hobbies, and the reason they're satisfying is because you're building something. Now the twist to this with games is that a lot of the games scratch that itch. Like m let's take Minecraft, for example. What an awesome game. You can build without limits, you can make incredible things, and you can understand why people love it so much. It's very satisfying. But what's interesting to me is I think that uh the one of the things that limits us, or the ultimate limit to our creativity in this world, to our exercising that that God-given dominion, that scratch and that itch that God put on us is the fall. It's that there's a curse on work itself, and there's a curse on our hobbies, and it's frustrating, and there's thistles and there's thorns. But what do games do? Since they're not real, they overcome those things. There's a reason there's not like a paint-drying video game. There's a reason that you skip the boring parts in games and you have powers and you can do things you couldn't possibly do in the real world, right? You have you have infinite money or whatever. Um and I think that that that's the danger, and that's why some one of the reasons at least we'll keep going is we get to fulfill that desire God put in us. But the problem is it's not real. It's it's vapor. You changed a number on a computer server somewhere. That's what you did. I remember having that realization when I was playing those RPG games, and I was like, I gotta get my stats up. And I was like, there's a number on some computer somewhere that went up, and that's really all I did. That's where my time went to change some artificial number. And and I think that's if you if you're gonna prefer, and and again, you can't be legalistic about this, but if you're gonna prefer one hobby over another, I say prefer a hobby that is creative, that brings something into the world, that builds something that's real, and ultimately it's going to be more satisfying for you when you do that, even though it may be harder.
SPEAKER_00Spot on, man. I have another question. This one wasn't anything that we've talked about or anything I've thrown at you, but speak to the person right now who's saying, Hey, love what you guys are saying, I totally get it. But I do this for a living. So, and let's say this person knows their Bible. I am, and they're a they're a guy, let's say, with a family. He's like, I'm a good provider. I do this for work, I get after it. Yeah, Reagan, the number changed on the server. Guess what? When the number changes on the server for me, the number changes on my paycheck for me. Speak to that element of they're productive, they're gaming, they're working, they're providing, and they're obeying the Lord and serving in the church, that they're godly. Speak to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it's a you're thinking of like a streamer or a YouTuber, someone who makes money that way. Totally.
SPEAKER_00Like, I mean, there's people that game now for a living.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and they do quite well. No, I that's a great question, and it's a tough one too, because it in my mind, that category, what is it you're doing if you if you're a streamer or you're a YouTuber, a gamer specifically, and you do this, I I put it in the category of you're an entertainer, right? And so like that's that's kind of where I think about it. I was like, okay, can you can you be an actor to the glory of God, like a stage actor or a movie actor? I think so. Can you be a singer to the glory of God? And it doesn't have to be CCM music, you could just be singing, right? And so I think that from that aspect, I don't, I don't, I mean, I couldn't say there's something wrong with that. The only thing that I would just think about and wrestle with in your own heart on it is um the what the the people on the other end of the screen that are watching it, right? Like to recognize you really have no control over that. Maybe you can be a positive influence, and that's that's wonderful. There's value in that, but there is uh you you're you're creating a lot of fodder for for a lot of times kids and the just streaming it endlessly or playing YouTube video after YouTube video. I and again, I mean, I don't want to be condemning of any of that, but that that'd be the stuff if I would if I was in those boots, that would be kind of the stuff I would be thinking more about. What what is what is that I'm bringing into the world? What is the creative aspect? Um, but I definitely think there's ways you can positively redeem that. There's a lot of really um bad influences in that space. And so I definitely think uh even if you're not um overtly, you know, pre- it'd be wonderful if you're preaching the gospel on the stream, but just not to be one of the real there's a lot of nasty people in that space. And so I think uh being a positive influence there is a very good thing. Same way being a positive influence at your at your work, doing a good job at, you know, if you worked at a factory or something, is a good thing. So those are those are kind of my scattered thoughts on it.
SPEAKER_00No, that was helpful. I think what you just did is you threw a bunch of shotgun questions out there that people should be asking. That really is the essence of wisdom, prudence, and discernment is you as a if you're listening to this and you're a professional gamer, you make money from this, you go on and work hard and you get after it, but in the end, you need to be asking yourself questions to discern and pray through motive and influence. And are you a stumbling block to others? Are you often silent about the other side of the screen, like Reagan said, or are you one of those people that you game and you're talented and you got a real sharp brain and quick eyes and you go? And then also at the same time, you're constantly reminding the next generation hey, this is something I do for a living, but this isn't my life. There are addictive patterns, there are things like that. I think that you just threw out a ton of great questions, Reagan, that I think people can be asking. Um, so two final questions. One is about video games, the other is about redeeming productivity. Here's the first one. What are video games to avoid or principles to help people to discern or what to steer clear of? Because we're not all playing NHL or NBA or NCAA, you know, we're not playing some sports game all the time. We are in a generation where we're playing Call of Duty and we're playing other things and Halo and whatnot. And there's a lot more than that, obviously. What are some video games that might be wise to avoid or principles that you would put in front of people?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh the the first thing I would think about is the content side of it. And that's often where people go first when they talk about it. And I want to talk about another part of it too, but the content part you should be discerning on. And this was probably and this is what I got a lot when I was a kid, um, was you know, video games are gonna make are violent and they're gonna make you violent. Okay, I mean, I don't think that video games make you violent. I don't I don't buy that argument, but the content of video games, if it's uh a sexual sexually promiscuous content, if it the language stuff, the same same sort of principle you'd apply to what movies you would allow yourself to watch with the garbage you're putting into your head, apply those filters to video games. But the violence question, um I think a lot of Christians haven't thought deeply on this. Especially I know I didn't. You know, people would make these uh you would think, okay, if video games don't make me violent, then what's the problem? Well, the problem can be, if you I think the way I put it in the book is if you're glorying in the gore. And and what I meant by that is God hates the soul of the person who loves violence. Now, he doesn't like it when we murder people, we know that, but he doesn't like it when we love to dwell on violence. Well that's that's a problem I have with horror movies, things like that. It's look, I understand that in a war movie, there's like I'm not saying that there's something that it's the same as as watching sexual content or something like that, but there is something that happens in your heart, and only you know this, and you need to be aware of it. If you love running around on the Grand Theft Auto 5 and just smashing in people's heads with a baseball bat, what is going on in your heart and recognize that it's not something that God likes. It's fictional. I know it, I know it's fictional, but why are you enjoying that? I think that's a really deep but yeah, you're relishing in it. I don't think that's good for us, and I don't think that it's something that that pleases God. Um, but the other aspect to it, just principle wise, is the the thing we've touched on a lot is the addictive part. I mean, it doesn't have to be one of these, you know, console game things, and it doesn't have to be young people. People. Some of these Candy Crush or like Clash of Clans, you see a lot of people play these games that they are designed to be addictive. And that there's there's stuff about the economic incentives in the way games are made now that they have developers are incentivized to keep you playing because you end up giving them more money through ads or microtransactions. But that I would apply that too. It's saying, man, I can't stop thinking about that game all the time. And that's the thing that is for me. Like I'll still play games, but often I will if if that's I keep my my an eye on my heart and I realize I think about that game when I'm not playing it. I'm just gonna delete it. You know, like what's the like there's something about it that's capturing me, and I can feel myself being pulled in and wanting to spend more time than I ought to on it. And so those are kind of the two two big principles I'd think about.
SPEAKER_00That's huge, and that is where I want to segue into my final question for you. What would our audience learn from subscribing and following redeeming productivity? Your project that has now become really a mainstay in a lot of people's weekly podcast and video lineup, you're helping people understand how to be a Christian and how to thrive in productivity and how to be disciplined. You know, what could more people in our audience learn from in that space on this issue, but a lot of other issues?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Well, and these two subjects are not unrelated in my mind. My journey to productivity and interest in this was driven by a realization that I was not redeeming the God's time that He entrusted to me because I was dumping almost all my time into games. And I love productivity for the same reason I I've I don't play video games as much, and that's because I want to live a life that counts on the eternal timeline. I want to live a life that uh my work is is used to glorify God. I'm doing that in a good way, I'm spending my time wisely, and I'm I'm thinking about efficiency, not like you know, I got into productivity books and stuff, and the the efficiency stuff is like, okay, how can I be financially successful? How can I get a promotion? Those things are fine, but uh more so I'm concerned about how can I steward my life for God's glory? That's what I want, and so that's what we talk about in redeeming productivity is you know, harvesting the best of you know techniques. We get real practical on how you can use your time well, but it's all rooted in the word of God and in why we're here and being motivated from that desire to make God uh look good.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love it. I'm a huge fan, and I've been so blessed by your wisdom, your insights on this issue. I know our audience has as well. Brother, thank you for being on the show today, and thank you for all of your amazing contributions to for the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, brother. Appreciate you. Love for the gospel, love what you guys are doing, love to be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00Awesome, man. Well, we're really excited. We'll have several videos coming out in the not so distant future with Reagan, and we're pumped, man, to see you keep putting out great things with redeeming productivity. Thank you all for being with us today on the For the Gospel podcast for awesome video teachings by our incredible team, people like Reagan, and for free small group video series teachings on marriage, family, dating, courtship, and more. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel and be sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter. You can learn more about our team and find out how to partner with us at www.forthegospel.org. We'll be back next Monday with another episode. Keep on living for the gospel.