Understanding the Mind's Perception of Change with Pia Wendelbo

Ready to unravel the mysteries of your mind and how it perceives change? Join us with brilliant change agent and entrepreneur, Pia Wendelbo, as we traverse the terrain of the dual process theory, illuminating the dual ways our brains process decisions. Pia takes us on her recent personal journey, moving to Spain's warmth, and shares how this significant change has shaped her perspectives.

As we journey further, we explore the importance of cultivating a secure setting for change within teams. Here, we spotlight trust-building, fostering a learning culture, and the crucial role of competent team members to guide the learning process. We take a detour into the realm of self-reflection and the necessity of understanding our resistance to change. We conclude our journey with an insightful discussion on finding commonality and fostering a safe learning environment. This episode is a must-listen for Agile practitioners, Scrum Masters, and anyone looking to understand the complexities of change better.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/digital-change-agent/
https://www.scandinavianchangeagents.com/

About Pia:
As a Change Agent and entrepreneur, I help companies and individuals navigate the digital disruption with the aim of growing and transforming successfully.

With over 20 years of experience in strategy, innovation, product development, process optimization, and organizational change, I can assist you in setting the right framework for a successful digital transformation that focuses on both business and customer needs.

I believe that empathy is essential in supporting organizations through digital transformation. I can help you understand the human side of the changes you're going through.

My approach involves utilizing behavioral design and neuro-science to ensure that your organization is prepared to take on the necessary changes. I specialize in creating a safe space for learning and growth while we transform and believe that successful change happens when each employee transforms successfully.

If you're ready to make a change, book a 30-minute session with Pia or call her at +34722383193 or +45 61209500.

https://calendly.com/talkaboutchange

About our Sponsor:
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Welcome to the podcast that challenges you from the inside. Welcome, be More and Discover the Agile Within. And now here's your host, greg Miller.

Speaker 2: 0:36

We are thrilled to announce that the Agile Within podcast is a gold sponsor of Scrum Day. Join us on September 14, 2023 at Align Energy in Madison, wisconsin, for this one-day conference. Prepare to be inspired by remarkable speakers, including the author of A Pocket Guide for Scrum, as well as the authors of Fixing your Scrum. Get insights from afternoon keynote Dave West, the CEO of Scrumorg. Learn invaluable strategies from industry leaders on implementing Scrum in human resources, technology teams and beyond. Don't forget to visit us at our booth at Scrum Day. Mark and I will be there and get your tickets at wwwscrumdayorg for this incredible event. Look forward to seeing you. Stop by the booth, mark, and I will say hi and we'll see you then. So welcome back. Another episode, greg and Mark here. So today, unfortunately, I'm getting the Canadian wildfires here. Mark Smoke again. Are you getting that down there at all?

Speaker 3: 1:42

No, not at all Just not at all, Keaton you made it to here, buddy.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Yeah, we're getting rain. I don't know where these wildfires won't stop, but we're close enough to Canada. Mark's far enough away from Canada. He doesn't get that, so any listeners that are up there feel sorry for those wildfires.

Speaker 2: 1:58

So today we have a wonderful guest talking about change. We're going to be going through talking about how the brain handles change. We're going to flip it around a little bit. We're going to kind of go inward. We talk about change, how we, as agilists and Scrum Masters, how we have to help people understand change. We're going to kind of twist it a little bit and go back. What about ourselves? How do we handle change and how do we internalize change and how it affects us, and are we really being the best we can in socializing that change? So our guest today lives in Spain. So, Mark, we're getting some international folks here. Lately We've had folks around the world lately. This is going great. So she is a change agent and an entrepreneur. She helps companies and individuals navigate change and the digital disruption with the aim of growing and transforming successfully. She has over 20 years experience in strategy, innovation, product development and organizational change. She is currently the CEO of Scandinavian Change Agents. Please welcome Pia Wendelbo to the show.

Speaker 4: 3:11

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here, and talk about change.

Speaker 2: 3:16

Yes, thank you. I was telling us earlier that you live. You have a wonderful place in Spain. You're kind of between the mountains and the ocean there, right?

Speaker 4: 3:25

Yeah, very lucky.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Yeah, and you just you just moved there recently, so you're getting settled in and enjoying your new home there. I'm jealous. I wish I could say that's the beauty of that's interesting, especially when you come from Denmark, where I live.

Speaker 4: 3:41

So it's nice to be in a warmer place where you actually can stay outside much more than you do in Denmark.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Okay, yeah. Yeah, that's true, I didn't think about that. Yeah, it gets colder up there. You're closer towards the Arctic Circle.

Speaker 4: 3:57

A lot of rain as well.

Speaker 2: 3:58

I would say A lot of rain, okay, yeah.

Speaker 4: 4:02

So it's a bit more fun to be outside than even though I don't think that Denmark is, of course, a beautiful country, but yeah we get much more rain, so the winds are not so fun.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Yeah, I bet the beauty of remote work right, you can work wherever you want to work. Right, you're from Denmark, you work in Spain. It's awesome, yeah. Work from home awesome yeah.

Speaker 3: 4:20

That's great. Yeah, are you fluent in Spanish, pia?

Speaker 4: 4:24

Yes, I am also learning Spanish. I believe, actually, that when you want to situate in a country, you need to understand the language and the culture. I think that's a really important thing. So, yeah, I'm studying Spanish besides everything else.

Speaker 2: 4:38

Besides everything else, that's great, and you live there, so you're going to learn it probably a lot quicker than we will over here, because I heard living in the country helps you. That's what I heard Exactly. Yeah, you learn better there.

Speaker 4: 4:52

You're forced to talk because they don't speak anything else than Spanish. So you kind of need to be able to communicate, I would say, the people around you. So it's a good thing, exactly.

Speaker 2: 5:03

Yeah, that's great, that's awesome. I'm definitely jealous of you. So, all right. So we are going to talk about we were talking earlier about when you go through change, change, how people react to it, and the neuroscience, the brain. You have some dual process theory you wanna talk to us about. So we were talking about like we deal with well, outside of even agile, we deal with it all the time, but in agile we deal with it like every day and that's our job is to promote change. But we kinda wanna talk about like ourselves as change agents. How do we handle change? Are we really maybe coming out from the right way? Do we really? We think we handle change well, but do we? So, pia, take us through. You were telling us about the dual process theory and how that works. Maybe you can help system one and system two. Maybe you can help lay that out for us and take us through that.

Speaker 4: 6:03

Yeah for sure. Yeah, I think, especially when we are dipping now down into this behavioral design and understanding the behavioral change. I think this dual process theory is quite interesting actually, because it's actually sort of telling us a bit about how our brains actually works in terms of taking decisions. So it's nothing to do with system one being more intelligent than system two, it's just the way that we process information and how we take decisions. So basically, our brain has two different systems available when we wanna take decision.

Speaker 4: 6:38

We have a system one that is really fast, is intuitive, it's unconscious, it's contemporary and it's automatic. So that is where all your tappets lie. So it's like brushing your teeth, riding about that kind of thing. It's something that is really easy for you because the brain knows exactly how it works right and in seconds you know exactly what to do in certain situations. So that is the system one. Then we have the other system, which is system two. It's slow, it's reflecting, it's controlled, it's thinking about future, it's rational. So system two. You can already now start to kind of feel the difference here, right?

Speaker 2: 7:21

Mm-hmm, I do.

Speaker 4: 7:23

So system two is actually what you need to use when you wanna change something bigger. So if you wanna do something differently, if you wanna change your way of working, you wanna introduce a new habit into your life, something like that, then you actually need to use your system two to make that happen. But, as you already kind of feel here, right, your system one is where you use most of your energy, because we are lazy our brains are quite lazy in general, right, yeah? Right.

Speaker 4: 7:57

We don't wanna spend too much energy. We can avoid to. So most of what we do in daily life is our system one. System two is something that takes extra effort from us and usually and all of the really interesting things here is that we all have a system, two capabilities, but we only have it in limited source. So usually if you look at yourself, maybe just take one second to reflect it and say if you look over your day, do you have a certain time, a day where you feel that you're really in flow, where you really feel that you're able to work the extra concentration failure? You'll feel that your brain is like really floating. Most people do.

Speaker 4: 8:47

Yes, I can say I do yeah, absolutely yeah, and that's your system two actually. So most people have some few hours a day where they are really sharp and able to use system two. The rest of the time, we want to use system one. And then now comes the interesting part, because when we're then talking about, like, introducing some new stuff, a new way of working, we come with a new strategy, we come with a new product or process that we want to implement into an organization. Then most of what we have been doing there is something where we have used our system two brains to figure out what it is that we want to do and write the strategy and everything. But those people sitting there wanting to sort of take that new thing in, they're receiving this with their system one. So you see there's a clash.

Speaker 4: 9:40

So, it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2: 9:41

So when you okay what you just said there, so when they're receiving something new, they take it like a chain, they take it with their system one.

Speaker 4: 9:49

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4: 9:51

We want as people, we generally want to use our system one as much as possible. That is also why, when you're then working with a change or you wanna change something yourself, you want to make it into a habit as fast as possible. Because when it's a habit for you, then it's something you just do, you don't use energy on it, and then it's easy for you to handle. But as long as it's not become a habit for you, it's something you need to use extra energy on to keep on working with it. And that's also why in an organization, when you want people to change, don't put too many things there in at the same time. You really need to take this creating slack very, very seriously, because if you wanna change something, you use extra energy, and if you have too much in your flow already, don't expect people to take that extra thing in. It's not gonna happen.

Speaker 2: 10:47

That makes sense because I've noticed when I have introduced some change, like just something, like we work in two week cycles, two week iterations, and when I introduce something, I say I do one thing at a time and I say let's just do it for a sprint, two weeks, one thing, and I have amazing success with that. If I were to throw like many things upon them I would get more pushback because it's overwhelming. They become overwhelmed, like to your point now makes sense If it's going system one and that's the lazy. Oh gosh, I don't wanna do all that. Right, that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 4: 11:29

Yeah, so it's hard to take it. And then, another thing that you usually also think is that what you are coming with here is the most important thing in the whole world, but you forget that the person besides you might have a lot of other stuff on their agenda right now that they also need to take care of, so what you are coming with might not necessarily be their number one priority. So trying to understand that as well is really important. And then, just as you were giving an example, then you need to create the space for it. Telling helping people and saying, okay, if this is actually really what we wanna focus on right now, how could we take away all those stuff? Clean their best, clean their colliders, so it becomes a success. And that's exactly what you're doing in your sprint. Saying, okay, we have this solar focus for the next two weeks, so that is exactly what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Yeah, now it's all making sense there, mark, does that resonate with you? I think you're muted, mark. We may have lost him. Okay, yeah, that makes total sense to me. There he is, you're back, great.

Speaker 3: 12:52

I'm back. Sorry about that, I know you did. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's so great.

Speaker 2: 12:57

Nice recovery, buddy Speaking about the types of change.

Speaker 3: 13:08

So one of the things that, as scrum masters and adro coaches at Greg and I work with is working towards outcomes instead of outputs, and so some changes can be strategic and some changes can be tactical, maybe thinking of that type two or system two. System two Just thinking about initiating change from an outcome. This is something that we want to achieve, not necessarily how we want to achieve it, because that can come across as very threatening to someone when you come in and you're essentially telling them how to do their job Right. Hey, this is a problem and you need to do this, and you need to do this in this way.

Speaker 4: 14:05

Yeah, especially the last part. I would never tell a person how to do it. I would rather show them a road or a way and then let people find their own way of coming towards that goal that we are setting.

Speaker 3: 14:25

So the interesting part to me I had someone explain this or I heard somebody explain it recently If you're teaching lifeguards, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:40

Do we lose you?

Speaker 4: 14:44

I think so.

Speaker 2: 14:45

Yeah, mark, we can't hear you.

Speaker 3: 14:58

Hey test.

Speaker 2: 15:02

There you go, we got you.

Speaker 3: 15:03

you're intermittent, okay not sure what's going on.

Speaker 2: 15:07

Now you're good, all right.

Speaker 3: 15:09

Not sure where I left off, but I was talking about teaching lifeguards. So you're teaching lifeguards and you suddenly notice that someone is struggling out at the beach and they're not doing so. Well, and one of your people that you're instructing is having difficulty rescuing them as an instructor, and you don't just say, well, they need to figure it out themselves, right?

Speaker 2: 15:36

That's probably not the best move.

Speaker 3: 15:39

You need to save them. Come on, I'm not going to tell you how to do it. So there is some aspect of setting up a safe space. All right, okay, me for these learning lessons, right?

Speaker 4: 15:58

Yeah, yeah for sure I would say in that case, if that I just wanted to sort of figure out exactly where you were going with it.

Speaker 4: 16:06

But I would say in these cases what I usually recommend to do is that you actually have people with high capabilities as part of the team.

Speaker 4: 16:16

So you kind of do these master learnings, where you kind of have one or two persons who really really know to track this particular thing and then the rest of the team actually then learns, because you learn a lot when you're involved with it and you kind of try it out on your own, but you work with it and so forth, and it also feels less intimidating instead of you just getting thrown all of the big C and just have to hang there and figure out yourself exactly how how should I navigate around things?

Speaker 4: 16:44

And it's going in there together is a quite fast way of learning in a team that you kind of have those extra capabilities. And then, of course, another thing within that is to build this kind of trust and safe environment where it's okay to fail, it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to say out loud like really I don't necessarily know how to do this, these kinds of things, so you really, really work with the psychological trust in a team. That's usually the base grounds for creating like these fast learning in a team or safe, I've noticed there's.

Speaker 2: 17:27

So where I work, there's been a lot of. We've been an agile for maybe four or five years, but we've been going through a lot of. We're in banking like you used to be, so we were talking about that earlier, but there's a lot of change that, when they introduce it, they when I say they, I mean like there's been a lot of governance changes lately so they'll have big. They'll have these big meetings where we, you know hundred people come right remote meetings and then you, you, you log in and you listen to them and then. But what I found is that you know some people will speak up, you know, and then, but when that meeting's over, there'll be a smaller group of people that will talk amongst themselves and be like, yeah, I didn't understand that and I didn't know what was going on. I've.

Speaker 2: 18:17

So where I'm going with this is that that safety you're talking about? I found that people often feel I think the majority of people feel safer in a smaller group, talking with one and like outside of the instructor, like okay, did you understand that? No, I didn't get that either. That was stupid or whatever. You know, why are we doing?

Speaker 3: 18:33

that.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Yeah, where they can really open up that, that sense of safety. And that's, you know, I Try to do that with, with, with the teams to does that. You found that the be the case to pia.

Speaker 4: 18:46

Yeah, definitely, definitely, yeah, that's. I think that's a really important job. But you're doing there that you then take to these big meetings, take it down and then let people talk when they come back in the team, and then it's something that you actually elaborate to further on. That's a really good way of doing it because, you're fully right, not everybody feels comfortable in speaking up in a really big setting, but again, it depends a lot of the culture in the company, and I myself have been sitting as a director, sort of yeah in a big company like that and we were trying to address this actually.

Speaker 4: 19:18

So usually when, when these things happened, I tried to put it in my own sort of space, showing people that I didn't necessarily know exactly how I Need to take in these new governance Things in, so it's like, yeah, we have to figure out together you know what will this mean to us, how we should deal with it. If you guys have any good ideas, please come with them. Talk to your teams around it as well, and also, I'm I might feel insecure about it or, you know, try to give some feelings in it as well. So it kind of becomes okay Not to exactly know what to do here, how to feel or what to yeah, basically so so.

Speaker 2: 19:57

So which one would that be? So like if you're in a big meeting like that, the example we just gave, and so where is that? Which system would that be? Is that the? Or is that any system at all? One or two Like.

Speaker 4: 20:17

Maybe for me, because I'm quite used to sort of trying to work with the empathic part, it's probably become more system one than two. So I guess it depends on the person how, how much or how used to working with this you are. So for me it's probably mostly my system one that goes into play here, because I can kind of feel on the audience Okay, we need to talk about this, we need to to really lay out some, some breaks here so people feel safe in this situation. So probably it's more my system one than two.

Speaker 2: 20:52

Right, okay, okay Good.

Speaker 3: 20:56

Pia, question for you. So how do you? Maybe do you have some strategies to get. So there are some people that just System one, thinking it's just very predominant, and when you introduce some change, yeah there are either people or groups of people that are very just, quick to say yeah, that won't work here and not even engaging the system, to thinking, to give it a an honest here's my air quotes again, greg an honest try or an honest assessment.

Speaker 4: 21:29

Any tips there on on on changing the yeah, because actually there I would actually go back, because in general, just like never everything out. Most people are not necessarily negative towards change as such. It's more because they're worried about something. So if the particular change that you are trying to implement sort of affects them in a way that they believe is negative, then they're usually reacting. So usually what happens in people's head in those situations is that now I think you are coming with something here and it might change my whole situation here.

Speaker 4: 22:08

Would I be good enough? Can I even figure out how to work with this news thing? Will I lose face? Will I not be good enough? What are the rest of the groups say? Will I lose my job? It can be as crazy as that, actually those sorts that goes on. And then another thing and it can also just be that people don't have the capacity to take it in, because if you're in an organization and you are quite squeezed I know how it is working also in sprung teams they're usually quite busy, right? You have a lot of stuff that you need to do quite rapidly.

Speaker 4: 22:43

You don't have that much time, not necessarily to work within the squad. You really have a deadline that you need to follow right. So many people are filled up. So the first thing I would do in these situations is actually look at each person's Slack and seeing okay, is there already too much on their plate? Because if that's the case, then people would just throw it away immediately and say, oh no, I can't take in more, and throw that already. So this is just noise, what's coming in here right now. So that's usually a really good place to start.

Speaker 4: 23:20

And then the other thing you could do, if it's not to do with the Slack is there actually a Slack? Then it's more about understanding the friction. So, before you actually start talking to your team members around this new thing that you need to change or do, start to figure out the frictions. What could prevent them from actually taking this in? So really start to be creative around all the different kinds of friction you could see, and then, when you have done that, then I would start finding solutions. So you have to find solutions for each of these frictions and you have to think them quite operational as well. So small things that can prevent this from happening, and you know yourself. If you want to start let's say now you want to stop eating candy or something like that One of the things you could do is that you have to remove all the candy from the house, right?

Speaker 3: 24:13

You had to go there, didn't you?

Speaker 4: 24:15

Yeah, exactly. So that's one way of doing it, or you can come with an alternative. So maybe you slice fruits and put it in front of you so it's easy for you to take that instead of taking the candy right. So it's kind of a similar thing you need to think of when you are working with teams or in an organization. So what can you do to support people in going in the direction you want, or remove stuff that will sort of let them stay in the position where they are right now, where you don't want them to stay. Because, again back to system one and two people usually choose the easy way out here. They don't want necessarily to use more than a game.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Right. Why do you think that is Just curious? Are we lazy by nature? I mean just not being serious. Is that kind of our? Why is that our default?

Speaker 4: 25:17

The default is like that, because when you were back then, very, very long ago, right when you were the under collar or whatever, you didn't. If you wanted to survive, you needed to figure out okay, was this something that would give me food? Do I have to basically like, do I have to run or do I have to stay with it? Because either it's something that will give me food or make me survive, otherwise it's going to be a tragedy, it's going to kill me. So I rather just stick off and in those situations, like if you have like a big animal coming after you, you don't have much time to think. So the better you are to use your system, one like it's automatic, it's like unconscious, it's intuitive the better, I would say, the chance of you surviving is higher.

Speaker 3: 26:04

Right, okay, so the sniper tooth tiger is approaching you. Don't use systems.

Speaker 4: 26:09

You think you Exactly, you don't want to stick out and see how well it's going to run you or not? What's going to happen, so you know, is that three or that three? You just want to run right.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Yes, it's that with the fight or flight. I guess right Is that kind of where you're exactly yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 26:25

And second you guys say call it fight or flight. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Fight or flight. Yeah, I've heard that Exactly Many times before.

Speaker 4: 26:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Yeah, I'm just fascinated by psychology and how the brain works and you know why we do things and how we're wired. Yeah, that's why I ask that. So it's very interesting.

Speaker 4: 26:44

Yeah, exactly yeah, and I think it's really interesting with these, like it's quite simple, right, but when you start understanding these sort of things, you can actually quite easily change the way that you operate around things right.

Speaker 2: 27:02

Yeah, yeah, once you understand it, once you know how people work and take, you can, yeah, and this is you know, in anybody, I mean even you know we deal with people on our, in our same proximity, on our team, and then we also mark an idea with people like higher up in the in the corporate chain, like executives and, and you do too. So, but people are, at the end of the day, people are just people, right? I mean, we may have bigger titles and but we still are going to operate the same way here and the titles get in the way sometimes and make us feel unsafe. When you know, I get nervous when I have to deal with executives because just the position that they're in, but I just I know that I have to do it. So do I feel safe all the time? No, not always, but I know that I have to do. I don't mark you ever feel that way.

Speaker 3: 27:57

You really got me thinking about. Yeah, so to answer your question, yes for sure, yes for sure, and being reflective. You know it's uncomfortable we talked about. It's not necessarily comfortable, but an uncomfortable thing to think about is. So, p, I'm thinking about myself and part of a scrum message was to be a change change agent. But how open am I to change? So if somebody suggests a change, am I going to just give that system one response, that lazy response of no, that's not going to work, and not really engage system two and give it a fair shot? So I don't think you can be an effective change agent if you aren't willing to change yourself, correct?

Speaker 4: 28:52

No, I think that's really really definitely. Definitely, you have to walk the talk. You definitely have to walk the talk. So fully, fully agree with you there. But there's ways. I would say, just by now, that you are starting to reflect. You know, how do I actually work? How does my decision work here? What can I actually do? So when you're starting to feel usually you feel when people are coming with something and you don't necessarily bite directly, right, you have a certain feeling in your body, don't you? You can kind of feel that you are a bit like maybe taking a step back and the thing about it is I'm not sure I agree with that, right, why should I do that?

Speaker 4: 29:37

When you start feeling that, then that's a trigger point actually on a hacker. So if you start learning yourself that, hey, this is a sign and I have to post, so right now, in that particular moment, I post, and then you go into the sort of you can say you go into the helicopter, you go to the balcony, view, or you just you know sort of take holistically, view and things and then say what is triggering me here? So you start actually doing it on yourself and figuring out what is your friction, why is this boring me? So you start being curious to your own friction and then saying, okay, it might be that, or it's actually that, or it's actually that or that or that. And then when you know the friction, then you can start finding solutions for yourself. Okay, if this is actually the case, okay, how can I prevent this from happening? Or can I actually mitigate this so I don't feel scared or you know whatever feeling it is that you are feeling? So you can actually use this model on yourself as well.

Speaker 3: 30:41

That's really good. I've taken notes here to do that can be very insightful to really open up and think about what really is the friction that I'm feeling here.

Speaker 4: 30:52

Yeah, yeah, and that goes for target groups. So when you guys are working like in progment, like when we are building new products or customer journey, so stuff like that, it's actually really interesting to put this behavioral part on there as well, because usually we have a tendency to think that customers react to certain things. We believe that this might be a friction, but then when we start really working with it and going fine and really interviewing and starting to spend some time with the target audience, we figure out that their frictions might be very different from what we actually expected them to be. All the solutions towards the frictions could be anchored very differently, because it's not necessarily that they want a digital solution for this. As long as you are just removing the friction, it can be basically a thing.

Speaker 4: 31:39

Plus what I've seen as well when we're developing stuff, we are trying to make it very complex. Why we are building something really big? Because we are thinking this is what the customers want in this case, and then basically they just want this particular friction to get moved. And if you can do that in an easier way not necessarily building a lot of stuff then it's just as good for the customer.

Speaker 2: 32:03

One way that I try to remove friction is, like you were saying earlier. If someone tries to introduce something to me and I don't agree with everything, I do try to pause. I do try not to always outwardly disagree, but sometimes I might even in order if it's a new situation. I'm trying to affect change with a director or somebody, or even someone on the team. I don't know, mark, if you've done this. I will often.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Sometimes, how do I say this? If I don't agree with it, maybe I'll say that I'm not lying to them. I'm trying to like, I guess, maybe give them a, throw them a bone. I'm thinking I don't agree with this, but I want to try to find some common grounds. Okay, I'll say let's try this. Maybe I don't agree with it. Can you know where I'm going with this, mark? I'll just say I agree with it. Let's try that. Maybe I think it's going to fail, but I'm trying to not always make them feel like I'm forcing everything I want to do upon them, but I'm willing to give and take. I guess is kind of what I'm saying.

Speaker 3: 33:14

Well, and sometimes failure is the best teacher, right, right.

Speaker 4: 33:19

Yeah, yeah, important to fail as well. It's the fastest way to learn, I would say it is. But what I felt that you were explaining there, actually, greg, was curiosity, and that is a really important tool, and it was, I would say, as well. So, as long as you keep the curiosity, then you are actually also generally trying to meet people where they are right, being genuine about really trying to understand where they are, how they feel. You know what is behind this. So I would say curiosity is a really, really important tool.

Speaker 2: 33:51

I do and I am curious by nature. I mean, I think I just, yeah, I like to ask questions and try to understand where people are coming from. I just am curious about something I've never known about and I like to just ask questions and yeah, yeah, you have to be curious.

Speaker 4: 34:09

That's a really infusive way of going into dialogue with other people, because by asking questions you also show that you are generally interested, right, and most people like to talk about themselves or explain where they are or feel that they are seeing. So by asking questions you also make other people see.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Yeah, and that makes them feel safe too, right Knowing that they that they. Yeah, I mean, depending on how, you ask the question right. Well, yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:35

Yeah, yeah, of course. Why in the?

Speaker 3: 34:37

world. Would any idiot want to do that?

Speaker 4: 34:40

Yeah, exactly, but it has to be genuine too.

Speaker 2: 34:44

It has to be genuine. I mean, you can, you can tell when people are being fake. I can. I can tell when someone is they don't really care about me, they're just doing it because they think it's going to get them. They have ulterior motives, basically, and you can see right through that and they're fake, fake people. So that's another topic, right, Exactly.

Speaker 4: 35:04

Yeah, they're very interested in one actually.

Speaker 2: 35:07

Oh yeah, it's very interesting. So, yeah, this has been great. We are coming to the end of our time here. Any final, any final comments, pia.

Speaker 4: 35:19

Yeah, I think it was really, really interesting. Also, I yeah, of course I like, I like to to nerd it to this I think that in many cases, it's it all comes down to, to the people. So I think it's it's. It's quite important when you're working with transformation and changing, that you actually realize that we are just people and really trying to understand how we work, because that's, at least from my perspective, what it also takes to make an implementation of a transformation successful.

Speaker 2: 35:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I agree. This has been great. Thank you for for your time. So how can people get a hold of you if they want to reach out to you and work with you?

Speaker 4: 36:04

Yeah, sure, yeah, I have both LinkedIn and website, so so they can. They can go to my website, which is the NIMI transformation ScandinavianChangeagentscom. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Okay, I'll put that in the show notes along with your LinkedIn profile. People can reach out with you there. See all your great pictures of Spain. I'm looking at it right now.

Speaker 4: 36:26

Those are yeah, exactly, or they can also have my link tree. It depends on what, yeah, what is best. Actually, I can send it also to you, yeah. Okay, yeah, absolutely you have it actually on the LinkedIn profile. You have. You actually have everything there as well.

Speaker 2: 36:44

Everything there Okay.

Speaker 4: 36:45

Yeah, so maybe the best place to actually put them would be the LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 36:50

Okay, I'll put that in the show notes so people can get a hold of Pia Wendalbo about talking about change. She has her own company, scandinavianchangeagents. If anybody's interested in getting help, you're having difficulties at your company, she will be glad to help you there, so go ahead and reach out to her there. You can reach out to us, mark and Greg our LinkedIn profile Mark Max, greg Miller on LinkedIn, the Agile Within. We have a page there too. Go ahead and contact us at Twitter too. We have a Twitter account, agile Within, and we have our email, greg Miller at the Agile Within. You can contact us there. Please also consider about becoming a sponsor of the show. You can donate for as little as $3 a month. We really appreciate that. We are definitely run by our sponsors. They help us produce this great content. If you're liking it, we really appreciate that. So with that, that has been another great episode with Pia Wendalbo, mark and Greg for the Agile Within. We'll talk to you next time.