Unleashing The Power of Neuro-Linguistic Programming in Communication with Neelu Kaur

Are you ready to be your own cheerleader? This electrifying podcast episode is sure to empower you as we host leadership guru and author, Neelu Kaur. Drawing from her own experiences, Neelu navigates us through the highs and lows of self-advocacy, particularly emphasizing the sometimes difficult journey of Asian and South Asian women in the workplace. With her insightful book, "Be Your Own Cheerleader" as our guide, we deep-dive into the importance of standing up for oneself, challenging cultural norms, and rising past personal struggles.

Ever wondered how Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) can enhance your communication skills? Neelu unveils the magic of NLP and its potential in improving self-advocacy. She invites us to shift our focus from problem-centric to outcome-oriented questions, revealing how this change in perspective can bridge cultural communication gaps. Through a relatable workplace example, we illustrate how this powerful tool can be harnessed to better communicate our needs and aspirations.

In the latter half of our conversation, we explore the multifaceted world of corporate diversity. We underline the dire need of leaders to amplify the often unheard voices and foster an inclusive work culture. We share an inspiring tale of a sales leader that demonstrates how diversity can lead to extraordinary outcomes. As we draw to a close, we emphasize the importance of meeting people where they are, respecting personal identities, and understanding different communication styles. Brace yourself for an enlightening discourse on self-advocacy, the power of effective communication, and the undeniable value of diversity and inclusivity. Don't miss out on this transformative episode!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:21

Welcome to the podcast that challenges you from the inside. Welcome, be More and Discover the Agile Within. And now here's your host, greg Miller.

Speaker 2: 0:35

All right, welcome back everybody to the Agile Within. This is Mark Metz. Unfortunately, we don't have my co-host with us, greg Miller. He usually does the introductions here, but he's involved in some training today and he won't be able to join us, so you're going to have me as your host. I want to introduce our guest today. Our guest is Neelu Kaur. Excuse me, neelu holds a BS from NYU Stern School of Business and she has a master's of arts degree in social and organizational psychology from Columbia University. She's also a certified NLP master, practitioner and coach from the NLP Center of New York. She also has 15 years of experience specializing in adult learning and leadership development in financial services, consulting and the tech industry. She's an author, facilitator, speaker, executive coach, focusing on leadership, self-advocacy and burnout management for teams, organizations and individuals, and Neelu recently published her first book, be your Own Chew Leader, and that focuses on the self-advocacy of Asian and South Asian women. So welcome to the Agile Within, neelu Corps.

Speaker 3: 1:59

Thanks, mark, I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Yeah. So before we get started, Neelu, I want to ask you what kind of plans do you have for Thanksgiving? Are you staying in town? Are you traveling? Do you have people coming to see you?

Speaker 3: 2:10

Yeah, so we are staying in town, my husband and I, because we have travel coming up this weekend, so it's going to be a very low key. We don't have kids, so we don't have to make a big meal or anything, so we usually are the ones that you'll see trying to find good food on Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2: 2:28

I got you Very good. Yeah, yep, awesome. We're visiting with my side of the family this year, so my wife and kids and I will go up a couple hours on the road to go visit at my sister's house and get together with my side of the family and we'll have a moderate size get together. That's really low key. We're kind of beyond, you know. We're at the point where we just want to get together as a family. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Right, we just don't want a big production and all that. So we're good. Well, we're recording here in the middle of November, so this will probably be coming out in December. Thanksgiving will be a distant memory and we'll all be looking forward to the holidays. But yeah and Nealoo, you live in New York, in the city, right?

Speaker 3: 3:18

I live in Queens and Forest Hills, new York, and I believe it's the best neighborhood in the world we have. It's like the perfect. For me, it's the perfect combination of city and also there's. I live close to a couple of parks and it's a little bit more spacious than Manhattan, so I feel like it's the perfect combination.

Speaker 2: 3:36

Oh nice. You know, new York City is one place that I have never visited. I don't know why. We had a chance to go one time and never have, but we're going to have to put that back on our bucket list of things we have to do. We really need to do that.

Speaker 3: 3:50

And when you do, let me know, I'll send you a list of things to do.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Great, and we'll stay in your guest room. How about that? Just for myself.

Speaker 3: 3:59

Oh, if you could help pay for a guest room, that would be great. Space is very limited in New York City, so we do not have a guest room, unfortunately, but then you know it also keeps guests away, I guess when you don't have space for anyone else.

Speaker 2: 4:13

There you go. There's your angle. Well, Nilo, as we get started here, I thought we would let you introduce your book and give us a description. Yeah, why don't you tell us about your book? Be your Own Cheerleader.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Yes, so Be your Own Cheerleader is all about self-advocacy. It's through the lens of culture, psychological and spiritual. It is for Asian and South Asian women. But the feedback that I've gotten is that anyone that struggles with self-advocacy it could be very introverted people, it could be neurodivergent people, people who just don't feel comfortable. Actually, even in the US I've noticed that in certain parts of the US people are not as inclined to if you will toot their own horn versus in the Northeast. I think it's very much expected. I think in California you'll find a little bit more of that in the Bay Area, where it's like all of these tech companies and so people have to shine bright. But there's also parts of the country where folks just don't feel comfortable. My book is actually crossed beyond the niche of Asian and South Asian women.

Speaker 2: 5:20

So why would you? Why is self-advocacy, why is it important and why is it something that you focused on in this book?

Speaker 3: 5:27

Well, there's a few reasons.

Speaker 3: 5:29

One is that I absolutely sucked at it and I still struggle with it, because for me, coming from, I was born in India and raised in the US and I noticed throughout my years of facilitating and coaching, I realized there was a common thread amongst Asian cultures and that was that we are very collective, we're very we-based cultures and the US, north America, is very eye-based.

Speaker 3: 5:52

So what happens is, when you come from a place or raised by people who believe in group harmony, you don't want to stick out, you don't want to cause any attention to yourself, you just want to do good work, and work will speak for itself, and that does not bode well in North America. It definitely doesn't work in corporate America. And so I found myself in the beginning of my career getting fired, getting laid off, and I just kept. It was a repetitive pattern, and then, after a few years, I was like you know what I think it's, because I don't raise my hand and say, hey, that was my idea or I did that. And so I truly believe there is an eye and team and I think all of us, despite what level we are in organizations. It's really helpful to come back to the fact that there is an eye and team and when it's your idea, when it's your, something you've created, it's really important that you get credit for it.

Speaker 2: 6:47

So what are some ways that you can accomplish that find that I in team, without coming across as a I'll just as a jerk.

Speaker 3: 6:59

Absolutely. Yeah, you know it's funny because for me there's like a visceral reaction when I'm about to talk about my credentials or, and, as a solopreneur, when you're on a business development call, it's all about who you are and what you're selling. So so the way I I coach organizations and teams is I say you know, think of a dial like a speedometer in a car, right, and there's a part of that dial that goes towards the we side and there's the other part that goes towards the I side. So it's all about knowing your audience. So if you're in a team brainstorm session, that's when you're turning up the we, where it's about our shared deliverables, our outcomes. If you're in a performance review conversation, you're going to turn that dial over towards the I and you're going to say you know what? I did this, I sold this amount, I saved the company this amount of money, right, like it's all about what you did and I think, when you know it's contextual and you know that it's based on who you are sitting across or who your audience is.

Speaker 3: 7:55

That's really where it comes into play. I think it helps you stay authentic to who you are as a person, but knowing that you just have to adjust based on who's in front of you.

Speaker 2: 8:06

That's a really good point.

Speaker 2: 8:08

I was in a in a in a webinar maybe a week or so ago talking about the landscape and tech right now, and so I am currently practicing scrum master and you talk about the roles of scrum masters and agile coaches.

Speaker 2: 8:29

You see, a lot of companies are just, you know, they're closing those positions down for Agilists. They're just saying that you know when times are tough, you know, because the role of, like an agile coach, in the role of a scrum master, it's a little more. You have a lot more soft skills than you do hard skills, right, and so you're you're more about building the team, building effectiveness, and so some companies have have reached the point where they're deciding that you know we're going to forego these roles and just let those responsibilities be shared amongst the team. So the reason I'm saying all this is, as Agilists, it's very important for us not to just using your words. Let our actions speak for us, but we actually have to demonstrate to some extent what value we are providing, just for our own, for our own well-being, because, like you say sometimes, if you don't teach your own horn, there's not someone there to toot it for you.

Speaker 3: 9:38

There will never be there to toot it as well as you can toot your own horn. I mean, you can have round table discussions and you have someone who's your advocate, but they still cannot do what you can do. So in any opportunity that you have to share your value share even as a scrum master, right, like when you said soft skills it kind of makes me cringe because it is the rapport building and the managing teams. That's what translates to productivity and that impacts bottom line. So I believe that anyone who's in, who's doing that type of work, is absolutely necessary and I think it's, it's awful that that's. That's the first. Those are the first folks that go.

Speaker 2: 10:19

So, neal, what are some? Can you give us some techniques that we can use for to move into self advocacy without? Because you know myself, I was raised. I was born and raised here in the southeastern part of the US, so there's a certain culture among us that, by and large, you know it's the way I was raised to. Is that you know, like you say, you let your actions speak for you.

Speaker 2: 10:53

Right, and if you do good work, that it will be seen and recognized by by others. But what are some techniques that you have, maybe from your book or maybe otherwise, that we can use to to self advocate?

Speaker 3: 11:09

Yes, so my book. After every chapter there's a practice, and many of the techniques come from NLP, neuro linguistic programming. And for those of you that have heard of NLP or don't know about NLP, so Tony Robbins is sort of the person that put NLP on the map, but NLP was actually created in the 70s and essentially neuro linguistic programming is a communication strategy to influence yourself and to influence others, and so the basic premise of NLP is that you never expect people to come to your bus stop. You always flex to meet them at their bus stop. That's what makes us master communicators, and so some of the techniques that I use that I think are really important for self advocacy.

Speaker 3: 11:51

So you can't be your own chair leader unless you the way it's like it's all embedded in the way you speak to yourself. So that's where nlp comes into place, because you first work on how you speak with your to yourself and then how you influence and communicate with others. So if we start with ourself, we'll notice that you know sometimes we we say things that are not so kind to ourselves, right, like we might beat ourselves up, meeting didn't go as planned, and you are probably the first person to call yourself names, right, or ask yourself or tell yourself that you did an awful, awful job right. And so one of the basic premises of nlp is to ask different questions of ourselves and of others. And so there's a concept called outcome framed questions or problem framed questions Outcome frame. So typically what happens is we ask problem frame questions, would say what did I do wrong? Like who can I blame? Like who's to blame for this that happened?

Speaker 3: 12:46

like meeting and someone and we missed a key deliverable or a date. It's like the leader might say you know who we're at fault, like who's who. Who's the bottleneck here, right? Like those are very problem focused questions. Versus saying what else do we need to do in order to meet this deadline or who else can I ask for support, instead of, the first reaction Is usually to tell yourself that you suck. Or you can just say who else can I ask for help, right?

Speaker 2: 13:14

So when you start shifting the questions you ask yourself, you will inevitably shift the questions you ask of others that's really interesting because, as a Former engineer, that's the, that's the path that I came up through for my career. So I can say this of myself and working with software engineers as others is that frequently that's the first question that we go to is what's the problem that needs? To be solved here, Right. What's the outcome that I'm trying to achieve? Exactly?

Speaker 3: 13:46

exactly so. Even that shift, it puts everyone around you in a less defensive mode and then everyone can share and who knows what's gonna come out of that meeting. When you go in with that sort of we even have the word problem. When you hear problem, I'm sure something happens to you. This really like I know for me. I just don't like that word problem. Yes, there are things that happen that are problematic or there's issues, but it's like how are you talking to yourself about what you're gonna do? How are you gonna solution that?

Speaker 2: 14:15

Have you ever been involved in root cause analysis?

Speaker 3: 14:19

Yes, yes, where it's? You ask yourself five, five layers of why right?

Speaker 2: 14:26

Yeah, and you know, thinking back earlier in my career when it was Very much in vogue to do root cause analysis for every issue that came up, you know, you just, you're just this person sitting there Sweating porously in the corner, just praying Hopefully I'm not the cause of this problem, that everybody is focusing on it. It's really daunting, you know to think of it.

Speaker 3: 14:51

I'm sure. I don't know who it's gonna be, but I'm sure there's gonna be someone that takes that framework and and flips it to more outcome frame questions. So I think it, that in itself could lead to a totally different conversation.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Do you have an example that you can give us, maybe from the past, of working with a, working with a company, that started with maybe a problem frame, problem framed either outlook or approach or session, and you were able to flip the script and change it to To be more outcome based?

Speaker 3: 15:26

Yeah, so I Work a lot with companies, tech companies specifically, who are based in the US and they have employees in other parts of the country or, sorry, in the world. So they're based here and they have people let's say, they have engineers in India, and so what happens is there's a bit of a disconnect, so that usually when organizations reach out to me, it's because there's a problem, right. So they're coming in already and they're like our managers, they don't know how to report into leaders in the US because there's a bit of a culture clash. Okay, great, so can you help us? Can you come in and help the engineers figure out a better way to communicate when they are going to meet not meet deadlines when there is a issue, because what happens a lot in Asian cultures you don't.

Speaker 3: 16:14

Again, it's about group harmony, so you don't want to stir the pot. You are like, okay, we'll figure it out, we'll figure it out, and what happens is you can figure it out, but there there's inevitably times where you need help, you need support and you're you're fearful of authority and you don't want to go to your leader who is sitting in the Bay Area and say, hey, I'm gonna miss this deadline. So it causes a lot of friction. So typically when I am brought in, it is to solve a problem. And then what I do is when, in the, in the workshops, in the groups that I facilitate, in the speaking engagements, it's like okay, let's figure out ways not for you to change who you are from a cultural perspective. We're just going to tweak some of the communication skills so that you are better equipped to meet your manager where he or she is mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 16:59

It's interesting how you phrased how they, how you were brought in Mm-hmm, right? So Correct me if I'm wrong here. So it sounds like the mission that they gave you was these people. You need to fix these people because they aren't reporting. Yes, exactly and there was like Total ownership was pushed aside from from themselves and given to To this outsourcing company, right exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3: 17:33

So then I'm like yes, I am going to help those folks, those engineers, and I also think we need to have some conversations with the leaders in the us to share some of the cultural nuances so you can understand why certain people struggle with speaking up and sharing with you that they might miss a deliverable. Once you understand, you'll have more compassion and you might then say, okay, I'm going to have more check-ins with this person, I might email them a little bit more, or whatever the solution is. But the idea is that it's usually I say it's a too prompt approach. I'm not just going to say I'm going to go fix these engineers. They don't need fixing, they just need to learn a few things to meet the manager and the manager just needs to learn a few things to meet the engineers where they are.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Great job of using yes and I love it.

Speaker 3: 18:19

Yes, yes and.

Speaker 2: 18:26

So question for you. So how did one of the things that I like to think about in this? So when we are focused on this problem-based approach and we're teetering on blaming right, when that becomes the focus and you're like, either directly or indirectly, looking for for blame to be laid, then you people are going to withdraw and the result of that is that you're not going to have a lot of diversity in solving problems or finding outcomes. You're only going to get the high level people that are going to be contributing to that. So any thoughts from you as far as on that and maybe some things that you've seen as far as opening eyes of clients, to make sure that you are getting that diversity of getting everyone to be able to be comfortable to speak up when that's more valuable than just having your senior leaders or your hippo, your highest paid persons opinion being applied?

Speaker 3: 19:43

Yeah, you actually have a story about this, which is so there's a company that I've worked with and there's a leader that I have worked with in his team and also as an individual for executive coaching, and he's a global sales leader of this of this Fintech company, and so there was a huge, very high stakes meeting with the potential customer, and he knew that there could possibly be some technical questions that the customer was going to ask. So they brought in a couple of engineers and he selected the engineers that they were going to bring in for this sales call and it was in person. And so what was happening is the customer kept asking very, very, very technical questions, and so this leader, he kept throwing it over to this engineer, and now this engineer, who is brilliant, smart, very young Indian, and she is she's, she lives in the US, but she's only been here, say, 10 years. So what happened was she would answer the question and then she would that's it, she would hand the mic back over to my client, and so what kept happening is she was just speaking when she was asked to speak. So he has read my book and we've talked about these concepts, so he was then handing the mic to her more and more and more and actually she ended up taking over the entire meeting and they won this huge initiative, and it was a multi-million dollar contract.

Speaker 3: 21:05

And had he not let her speak about the technical nuances, I don't think the customer would have felt as comfortable and as confident in investing in this company. So the idea is that there are people around you that are smart, that are intelligent specifically engineers, and they are. They are just not comfortable in speaking up when they're not asked to speak up. So the onus is on the leader to hand the mic over, to loop them in, to thread them into the conversations and until you realize that there is a reason why some of these engineers are struggling to speak up. Once you realize it, then you you're like okay, yes, I'm going to hand the mic over to this young woman who knows a lot more about the technical aspect of the mic.

Speaker 3: 21:47

And so that was a big learning for him that there are oftentimes people who are brought into the room and no one talks to those folks. The analyst the senior analyst, sort of mid manager level, and those are usually the folks that have all of the information.

Speaker 2: 22:03

What a great story I feel so proud of, of the lady that you spoke of. I'm beaming right now just thinking of her and how proud I am of her.

Speaker 3: 22:13

Yeah, and I felt I feel so proud for her and I also feel so proud for my client, who's a middle-aged white guy, you know, and for him and he is his focus is about help amplify people who don't, who need some assistance being amplified because they are not just they're not comfortable in the limelight. The way he's comfortable, he's a sales guy. He is very comfortable being on stage, he is very comfortable with the mic. That's what he's done his whole career. So now he said it's time, his time to give back to others and help them amplify their voice.

Speaker 2: 22:48

So I have heard from salespeople in the past that have this fear of, you know, sharing the mic with a technical person that they might say too much or they might say something that they don't want them to say. But you know, really, when you talk to a client, they really appreciate the honesty that somebody could bring.

Speaker 2: 23:14

If something is a sore spot and company is working on where you know, somebody says, hey, well, tell me about your, I'm just making something up. Tell me about your auditing capabilities within your, within your application, instead of just glossing it over and giving some generalized answer. You know, maybe a technical person can say, well, hey, you know, we had some, some issues where we tried to develop this auditing capability and it just didn't really work out and, quite frankly, it sucked. So we had to go back to the drawing board and now we're revising that so that it's going to be even better than what anybody had envisioned and you feel more like a partner. I think when you talk to a customer, the customer feels like they're a partner at that level, more so than just more so than just a client or a customer, right.

Speaker 3: 24:03

Right, and that's where it's like okay, we are a team, we want to get this customer, so I'm going to bring in these two technical people into the call and then you talk to them before you talk to the customer and you say let's, let's figure out ways you're going to answer the question. Maybe they just need some coaching from you and and you do that beforehand and you prep and then you have the customer call Cause.

Speaker 3: 24:24

Typically you have a little bit of a lead time before you know when you're about to have a huge sales meeting in person, especially in person, right Like there's more planning that's involved, and so you loop in people and you loop in people that you may not normally loop in and and coach them. That's that's. I think that's also the role of a leader.

Speaker 2: 24:44

What about the? So we've all had places. We've been where we had that one brilliant person that really knew all the inner workings of the technology that we were that the company was providing. But they're just a little rough around the edges. Maybe they use language that some would find offensive. They may be kind of gruff. What advice do you have for this? So I remember a situation from from where I was, where that coaching didn't happen ahead of time and this very staunch person that had been there from the beginning of the company knew everything about the software, but he made some derogatory remarks regarding one of the questions that the customer asked and it was not favored very well and it ended up being part of his him being released because he was so valuable. But at the same time you you have to uphold the integrity of the company towards towards your customers, right? So just asking do you have any stories or any maybe any advice for those situations beyond just the generalized? You know, let's prep beforehand.

Speaker 3: 26:02

I mean, that situation is just like my one reaction is ouch. That's awful, and I also think you know it's interesting. I think that's it's actually happening more and more now, like in this world that we live in, because you can use the wrong pronoun, you can mis-keep mispronouncing someone's name, and and that person might be in the customer, in which case you are. You are consistently offending the customer by mispronouncing their name or you might be repeatedly saying the wrong pronoun.

Speaker 3: 26:32

So I think the onus is all of us who are client and customer facing even internal, we're not even flight-facing clients. It's like let's start talking, let's start becoming more inclusive. So I was in a meeting last night where we were all introducing ourselves and then one person raised their hand and said is it okay if everyone goes around and shares their pronouns? And you know, on zoom it's interesting because you can change your name in your little box there's three dots rename, you add your pronoun, okay, but the again it's like meet your customer where they are, don't expect them to meet you where you are. So if you're in a room with, say, you know people who you think need to have their pronouns identified, or maybe you just make it part of your repertoire now, right, like so you start doing things. Also, names are so important, so it, from the onset, if you are mispronouncing someone's name, you might just say how would you like me to pronounce your name?

Speaker 2: 27:29

I think that simple question and making an effort to remember the way that they print, they pronounce their name and to pronounce their name correctly it's a huge rapport builder you and I share something in common, and that's a last name that is, I'm sure, frequently mispronounced, because when we got together, I mispronounced your last name, trying to say it right, but you, but you.

Speaker 3: 27:54

But interestingly, you said my first name absolutely correctly and most people get that wrong and I said it's too silly really yeah, how hard can two syllables be? But it is for some people because it's not like a name like Sarah or Anna. Right, it's not a, it's a, not a common name in the US. So how do you pronounce your last name?

Speaker 2: 28:14

Mets just like. Just like the New York Mets.

Speaker 3: 28:18

I was just saying that's what I thought about that. Okay, yeah, you're right because you see the E and you're like, oh, because I even wasn't sure how to pronounce your name yep, so we'll chase a really quick rabbit hole.

Speaker 2: 28:30

My the, the lore that was from my dad's side of the family. What he always told was that there were three brothers from Germany that immigrated to to the US from a town called Mets, which is up at the northern end of Germany. Some would even actually call it southern France, but there's a town called METZ.

Speaker 2: 28:49

Mets, oh interesting and when the three brothers came over this is the way the story goes is that they wanted to differentiate themselves, so the three brothers spelled their names differently. One spelled their last name, metz, one spelled their name like we do M E TZE and then the third spelled it M E E TZE. And the joke you call it a joke was that the one that had the most ease the M E E TZE was the aristocrat. They had the most money in the family. The one that had the least amount of ease had the least amount of money.

Speaker 2: 29:29

So I always tell people I'm destined for middle class, no matter what I do oh no, that's not true so, yeah, that's funny, all right, well, um, so I'm thinking, nelu, you really had me curious about meeting people where they are. I think that's a really rich statement that you probably have some more stories about meeting people where they are, because I see many times people laying blame because they're like, well, I was never asked or nobody ever asked me. How can we improve? What are some ways that we can improve to meet people where they are and not wait for them to come to us?

Speaker 3: 30:23

yeah. So one of the things is you know we are, we live in such a busy, hustle, distracted world, right, like we're on our phone, and then we have our iPad, and then we have our computer and there's we're in a meeting with someone, we're sitting across from them or we're on zoom and where all of these things are ringing dingy right, and your brain is just going all over the place. But if you sort of just put that aside for just a second and start paying attention to the way that person is asking you questions? So I'll give you an example if someone keeps asking you well, how, how would you do that? How would you do this? How can I do this? They're literally looking for steps. Well, first you would do this, then you would do this and lastly, I suggest you do this right.

Speaker 3: 31:06

So if someone's asking you how base questions, you are literally giving them procedural steps.

Speaker 3: 31:12

If someone is asking you why base questions, you might give them options and say, well, you know, we could look at it from this perspective or this perspective. These are the two that I work with. These are the two types of ways I work with leaders how, how, what would work for your organization? So if they're coming in with why questions you, you think more from the option lens if they're coming in with how and constant how, then you know this person is very procedural and detail oriented in the way they're thinking and I'm going to answer these questions methodically step one, step two and let's follow up in step three how about that person comes.

Speaker 2: 31:50

That just needs to vent right.

Speaker 3: 31:54

And then you say okay, and it depends, right, like give me an example and I'll tell you how I might handle that so somebody comes in and says you know, I'm really tired of this person that comes in and monopolizes, monopolizes all the time.

Speaker 2: 32:11

In the meetings they always step over what I say. I can't ever get a word in edgewise. It just really, really frustrates me and I'm not looking for you to solve my problem. I just want to be heard that I am frustrated right now.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Yeah, and what would? What would you be your response?

Speaker 2: 32:32

So, generally, what I'd like to say is I hear you, I can empathize with you, and I understand how that is really frustrating. Is there anything that you would like to change about this, or do you just need some time to just process the information right now? Right or wrong. That's usually what I do.

Speaker 3: 33:00

That is perfect, because you gave an option. You can continue venting. Or do you want to talk about solutioning? Because you gave you gave the option. So I think that that was a perfect response, and that's exactly how I would handle it too. I would meet them where they are. Maybe they just need a quick five minute vent before they move to the next meeting, in which case, all right, let's do it. Or do they actually want you to help them and, like, figure out a solution for the next meeting?

Speaker 2: 33:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you don't want that. Your your frame of mind. Maybe they just don't want it to spill over into that next meeting and say something that they would regret.

Speaker 3: 33:36

Yeah, and that's the other thing. You know, oftentimes if you, if you, I don't know what your calendar looks like, but most of the people I work with, their meetings are back to back and oftentimes even my meetings are back to back and I'm like, aware that I'm doing this and I still do this. I create buffers between meetings and we really need buffers to process and synthesize information and this is where sort of your mental health and well-being you can burn out really quickly if you're just going back to back to back and you're not giving yourself at least five, ten minutes to just process and to think about that previous meeting before you move in to the next meeting. So I say, you know, with the venting and the frustration, another suggestion if that person was willing to be open to it is saying you know, maybe just give yourself a little bit more time, a buffer time. Because you might.

Speaker 3: 34:24

You might respond differently in that situation if you're not frustrated from the previous situation.

Speaker 2: 34:31

That's good, that's good.

Speaker 3: 34:34

Right, because in the previous meeting that whoever was the loudest voice and consistently talking if he was, if you're, if this person, this employee that came to you, if they were a little bit more centered and grounded, they might handle it differently. They might raise their hand and say, actually I need to bring up a point, or let's circle back to XYZ, right? So I just feel like it's on us to make sure our mental health is. We're doing the best we can and it's the only that onus is on us, not the loudest person in the room.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Yep, yep, yep, and how much more important it is in a remote society, because many times, like this podcast, I can't see you, nelue, so I'm not really. I can tell by the tone of your voice, but that's really all that. I have to go off the message that you're sending by your words and your tone, but I don't have any other indicators to try to see what you're bringing into the bringing into a meeting where, if we were in a physical location, I could probably see that you had a scowl on your face when you entered the room and had a clue that, hmm, nelue must have not had a really good previous meeting that she's coming from.

Speaker 3: 35:42

Right. So that actually brings up a great point. So, yeah, there are times when you know, back in the olden days, we use the phone and on the phone you cannot see someone's face, but you can see, you can hear their tone, you can hear their pitch, you can hear how quickly they're speaking and if you were trying to build rapport with that person, you match them where they are there your audience. So if you're speaking really, really slow.

Speaker 3: 36:04

So, Mark, how was your morning? And you're like going really slow, but I, I'm across from you or I'm on the phone with you and I'm like, oh yeah, I had a great morning and I did this and I did this. And if your energy and my energy is way off, the onus is on the communicator to sort of ramp up their energy a couple of notches. Hmm, Not, you know. So not that you're faking or being someone you're not. You're just matching the person where they are based on their tone, their pitch, the speed.

Speaker 2: 36:32

And that creates a better environment for meeting them where they are.

Speaker 3: 36:38

Exactly, it's like unconscious rapport building. That person will automatically feel like, oh, this person, I'm really like connecting with this person.

Speaker 2: 36:47

Connecting that's the word that I was looking for my mind. You feel more connected.

Speaker 3: 36:53

You feel more connected and you feel like I'm talking to another human being and we're just two human beings connecting.

Speaker 2: 36:59

Hmm, really good. Well, mila, this has been great. We may have to bring you in for a second episode.

Speaker 3: 37:06

I would love that. I would love that.

Speaker 2: 37:08

There's a lot more that we need to talk.

Speaker 3: 37:10

Yes.

Speaker 2: 37:12

So, as we close down here, why don't you let our listeners know how can they get in touch with you if they want to, if they want to reach you?

Speaker 3: 37:19

Yes, so my most active platform is LinkedIn. Under me, likor. I'm also on Instagram. My website is me, likorcom and my book. Be your own cheerleader. You can find that anywhere. You can find books Amazon, barnes and Nobles. Even local bookstores. You can ask them and they can order the book for you if you want to support local.

Speaker 2: 37:37

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, it's N-E-E-L-U-K-A-U-R.

Speaker 3: 37:45

Correct.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Okay, right, okay, well, great, we'll put all the all that information in the show notes so you can go there and give you links to click on to get there. And if you want to buy Neloo's book, it will be within a, within a mouse click or a or a touch on your phone from you. Speaking of LinkedIn, myself, mark Metz and Greg Miller we're on LinkedIn too. You can reach out to us that way. We also have a page on LinkedIn dedicated to the Agile Within, so go out and search for the Agile Within, stay in touch with us there, subscribe and you can be made. You can be notified as soon as any new episodes are dropped, and we'd love to have you All right. Well, neloo, it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for giving over your time for this podcast. This was a great episode.

Speaker 3: 38:41

Thank you so much, Mark. I cannot wait to come back.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Sounds great. All right, everybody. It's been a great episode here at the Agile Within. We'll see you next time.