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The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
Can Anyone Be An Agile Coach? with Kamal Kalra
What separates a mediocre Agile coach from a truly exceptional one? The answer might surprise you. When Kamal Kalra posed the question "Can anyone be an Agile coach?" at an Agile open space, he challenged the conventional wisdom that knowledge alone qualifies someone for the role.
Kamal brings a refreshingly human-centered approach to Agile coaching. His journey began when a mentor recognized his natural tendency to prioritize understanding people over processes. Rather than immediately focusing on performance issues, Kamal's instinct was always to connect with the human first—a philosophy that would become the cornerstone of his coaching style.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Kamal shares his "apple-orange" analogy, illuminating how organizations often fundamentally misunderstand Agile from the beginning. When companies have been handed "apples" but told they're "oranges," they develop an entirely distorted understanding of what Agile truly means. This misalignment explains why so many organizations struggle to implement Agile effectively despite their best intentions.
Perhaps the most valuable takeaway is Kamal's personal "80-20 rule"—dedicating 80% of energy to addressing immediate problems while reserving 20% for examining and improving the underlying systems. This approach reflects the racing principle that "slow is accurate and accurate becomes fast," a counter-intuitive but powerful strategy for sustainable improvement.
What truly elevates this discussion is Kamal's assertion that Agile isn't just a methodology or even a professional skill—it's a way of life that extends into personal relationships, home environments, and every aspect of existence.
Connect with Kamal on LinkedIn:
linkedin.com/in/kamalkalra-agilist
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking.
Speaker 1:The Agile Within starts now. Attention, scrum Masters and Agile enthusiasts, are you ready to level up your skills and connect with the best in the industry? Well, the Online Scrum Master Summit is your chance to hear from world-class Agile experts, gain real-world insights and explore the latest trends shaping the future of Agile. Best of all, it's 100% free and completely online. Happening from June 7th, happening from June 17th through the 19th, this event brings together thousands of like-minded professionals for engaging talks, interactive sessions and hands-on workshops. Don't miss this opportunity to sharpen your skills and expand your network. Sign up now at onlinescrummastersummitcom. And now on to the show. Well, welcome back everybody. This is your host, mark Metz. This is the Agile Within. My guest today for this episode is Kamal Kalra from Lake Forest, california. Kamal, welcome to the show, buddy.
Speaker 2:Hey, mark, thank you so much, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Great to have you. You and I have had a couple conversations, and I just want to get into our icebreaker question before we start this episode off. So you're from Lake Forest, California. This is in Southern California, the LA area. If I were coming to Lake Forest for a day and I'd never been there before, Kamal, what would you say is one thing that I couldn't miss doing.
Speaker 2:Well, that's interesting. Lake Forest as a town, as a city, isn't really, you know, a touristy place. It's your quintessential suburban neighborhood. So I would say so, I would say personally, one of my favorite things that I love about this town is, you know, I'm a big nature buff and we have the topography here is very unique. It's we're situated below the foothills and a lot of our neighborhoods here are situated on those hills. So like, for example, our immediate neighborhood is beautifully situated amongst these rolling hills and, being a big nature buff, I love the topography, so I love going on beautiful walks through these hills that we live in. So you know, to answer your question, if you're at all a fan of nature, it's a beautiful town to walk through because it has a really beautiful topography and natural terrain. So that's how I would answer that.
Speaker 1:I would imagine the weather is pretty nice year round too, being in Southern California, yes, indeed the weather is very temperate.
Speaker 2:Uh, summers are are. They can get hot, relatively speaking, in the winters, you know, can winter nights can get a little bit cool, uh, relatively speaking, but overall it's pretty temperate yeah.
Speaker 1:Sounds wonderful. Well, Kamal, you and I have had a discussion, have talked, and I thought it might be nice for to let you introduce yourself to the listeners out there. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:So most of my career I've worked with marks like Audi, bmw, porsche and Mercedes. I consider myself a highly technical person with very high technical aptitude, and I sort of organically, have always loved agile ways of thinking slash working in that order. For most, my career and my natural passion has always been helping systems become better by focusing on the actual humans doing the work, and I've always believed in creating long-term sustainable success by doing the hard work, or what I like to call the shadow work, in terms of helping to build better environments that extend beyond just your classic nine to also so my daughter when it was time to buy her first car.
Speaker 1:she absolutely fell in love with this Mercedes Benz that I happened to see on I think it was on Craigslist and I actually fell in love with it too. And and you know, that's not a good recipe, sometimes when you look at a car and you fall in love, right, that never ends in a happy story. But there was an 87 560 sl convertible oh my gosh car. And it was well taken care of and, because of its age, it had the price range that we were looking for, because we had a, you know, a very limited price range and me, you know being very emotional about it, and my daughter is my little girl, right, right, every, every dad wants to take care of their daughter and saw how much she loved this car, so we bought it, not knowing that the car was absolutely exquisite. But yeah, the other side, what they don't tell you is, if you're not a mechanic, you're going to be shelling out a lot of money for an old Mercedes to keep it running.
Speaker 2:That is true. Yeah, those can be wonderful cars to own long term, but you're absolutely right, they can get extremely expensive to upkeep over time.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe in another time we'll uh, I'll share some pictures with you and let you see. But yeah, so the the sad ending to that story was I had to end up selling the car because we just were spending so much on maintenance on. It Absolutely broke my daughter's heart and she's 27 years old now and she still never lets me forget that I sold that car. I love that All right. Well, back to the episode, today's episode. The title is Can Anyone Be an Agile Coach? And before we answer that question and dive in and talk about that, kamal, why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey on becoming an coach?
Speaker 2:Sure Mark. So it was right around 2015 that I was pretty fed up with my previous career that I had been doing for almost 25 years and was really looking. I was at a place in my life where I was looking for something more soulful to do and something more passionate, to really be able to do every single day and be excited about waking up every single morning, and I started working with at that time. I started working with a couple of mentors, one of which asked me a very interesting question, and this question and my answer to it was sort of the catalyst that got me to where I am today, and what she had said to me was she said Kamal, if I were to ask you the following question, how would you answer this? Suppose you have a team of you know four or five, six individuals that you're working with and you happen to notice one particular individual in that team that's really struggling to accomplish their given you know sets of goals, how would you go about handling that personally, just real quick, at the off the top of your head? And you know, I've I've certainly encountered that in the past, and so I knew exactly how to answer that and from my core, I instinctively just said oh, I would, you know, get in touch with this individual and I would ask to meet with them privately, one on one, and set some time aside. And I would spend a lot of time, I would do a deep dive into this actual person, not at all focusing on their challenges with their tasks, but getting to know them first and getting to understand the person behind what's happening here.
Speaker 2:And so my mentor kind of smiled and said to me that's very interesting that you answer that in that way and with the energy. And she said there's such a sense of positivity and exuberance to your tone when you answer that like you're really passionate about doing it that particular way. And so she said to me, she said so, let me get this straight. You wouldn't just go up to this person and say, hey, I noticed you're not doing this well, here's how you could be doing it better.
Speaker 2:And I said I said no, that really irks me. That's not the approach that I would use personally, you know. And so she smiled and we started talking a lot more. And that started me on my officializing of my love for agility. And along the journey, you know, a couple of my mentors said to me. Well, you know you've been doing a lot of these ceremonies unknowingly and they come so naturally to you. It's about time you start officializing your understanding of this by getting you know the right certifications behind you, so that the world can understand that you really are passionate about this, and that's what eventually led me to where I am today.
Speaker 1:Kamal, you and I, we have a lot in common. I think our outlooks are very similar. Conversations we've had before recording this podcast, and so I can identify strongly with that, and I don't know just my mindset. People just need to know.
Speaker 1:Maybe this isn't everybody, this isn't what everybody needs to know, maybe this isn't everybody, this isn't what everybody needs, but what I found is that when a person is struggling, they just need to know somebody's on their side, Somebody's got their back, Somebody is coming along beside them and they're not feeling all the pressure and the weight of themselves.
Speaker 1:So that's my natural inclination too is not to just go in and give constructive criticism right but to actually understand that person, because there may be some underlying things that have made that person who they are, that contribute to some of the struggles, and you can't get to the bottom of that unless you really know the reason why they're going through some of those things. So we can unpack that a little bit in this episode a little bit later. But one of the things I wanted to get back to is our question and our title of can anyone be an agile coach? And you told me a story of an event or a group that you went to and that question came up and I thought it would be useful to for the rest of our listeners out there to hear how that story went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I was, uh, part of a group once in an agile open space and, um, the. The actual topic at that moment was something very relevant in the agile world nowadays, which is the topic was is agile dead? And this was not very long ago it was about a year ago or so and there were some really, really well decorated agile coaches in this group people that have far more experience than myself as being an agile coach in their title for many, many years and we were talking about we were really unpacking this concept of why people think agile is dead and what's dead about agile.
Speaker 2:And the one of the questions that I asked in this group. As I was observing quietly, I asked the group can anyone be an Agile coach? And there was a sense of discomfort in the air and there was. There were some eyebrows raised around the room and most of most of the attendees of this group actually agreed that well, yes, anyone can be an Agile coach, you know. And then they all sort of reverted that question back at me as the person who asked it and said well, why did you ask that, kamal? And I said well, I humbly disagree. I don't think just anyone can be an agile coach, and what we sort of came to the conclusion of was you know the devil's in the detail. Words matter, right. So we concluded that technically, it's like saying can anyone play basketball? Well, I mean, let's first define basketball right, because if, if, if, just by taking the ball and, and you know, shooting it at the hoop and getting it into the hoop, if that means that I, that I know how to play basketball, then I'm a basketball player. But if the definition is more you know, is more elaborate and there's great accuracies to you know who actually is a basketball player and who isn't, then the conversation becomes a little bit more fruity, as, I like to say, concluded was well, when you say can anyone be an Agile coach?
Speaker 2:Well, sure, I suppose, depending on one's understanding of what an Agile coach is and therein lies the sort of analog description and my personal description of what I think a great Agile coach or the right Agile coach, right agile coach should be is far more than anything anyone can teach anyone else, because, in my opinion, there needs to be certain soft skills and there needs to be a certain kind of human that we're dealing with in terms of whether you can really be a great Agile coach or not, and, as we all know, agile coaches much like ice creams come in many different flavors. You've got certain flavors that taste better than others, and certainly that's true within our community as well. We have certain Agile coaches that are really, really great at what they do, and then we have other Agile coaches that are more sort of binary and they're more academic in what they do. And then we have other Agile coaches that are more sort of binary and they're more academic in what they offer, and I happen to be the type of Agile coach that falls in the realm of being far more analog and human versus purely academic.
Speaker 2:One of the things another example that I can share with you is I was in a another meeting with a couple of leaders from a very well-known organization here in Southern California, two of their top leaders, and one of the questions I asked them about their organization and their environment is, I said, gentlemen, I have a very basic question that I'm curious about, and my question is when I say individuals and interactions, what does that mean to you guys, for your organization? And I swear, mark, there was the longest, most uncomfortable silence that you could ever think about, and after a very uncomfortable almost two and a half minutes of silence, they said to me uh well, not really sure what you mean by that. Oh okay, well, that's interesting. That tells me a lot. Apparently, this is a company that already has that considers themselves an shop, and they've been doing agile for a few years. And when I said what does individuals and interactions mean to you, they had no idea what I was even talking about.
Speaker 1:So you were interacting with individuals by asking them what does individuals and orgs get?
Speaker 2:caught up in the academic binary aspect of trying to blanket agility over their system without ever spending the time to actually know what they're even attempting to do ever spending the time to actually know what they're even attempting to do.
Speaker 1:You know, it kind of reminds me it's one of those things that's so familiar to you that it's too familiar, it's too close to you so you really don't explore it. It's kind of like when you live in a city and you live there so long, there are certain things to do in that city that, because you've lived there so long, you just take them for granted and you never visit them yourselves. Yeah, do you agree? Oh?
Speaker 2:absolutely 100% yeah.
Speaker 1:Can anyone become an agile coach? So I think we're of the same mindset. Probably is what we're saying Can anyone? Now, there are different levels of it. There are good agile coaches, there are adequate agile coaches, there are marginal agile coaches and there are bad agile coaches. So to say that you're an anyone can be an agile coach If it falls anywhere in that spectrum, yes, you could land in there. So, yes, you could be an agile coach. You just might be a bad one. But to become a good agile coach, what are some of the qualities that you have seen and that are near and dear to your heart, kamal, that you look for for a good agile coach?
Speaker 2:Well, mark, according to me, I mean, I think there's a big human aspect that definitely has to be there. I think a great agile coach needs to be a great human being and needs to have a focus on making their fellow human beings great as well. Along that journey, transparency and accountability are a couple of other words that really, really come to mind. There's a couple of really fun examples that I can share with you here. I remember you know, I know I'm going to get a lot of pushback on this, because you know people are going to tend to think like oh, you know, this sounds quite judgmental and there's a certain sense of realism in for me personally, anyway when I shared a couple of these examples right? So one of them, I shared this with a group, with a team that I was working with who was new to Agile, and I said to them pretend that I gave you an apple and I told you that this was an orange. And for years and years and years, I kept giving you an apple and telling you here's another orange, how do you like that orange? And for years and years, you got to know the fact that an actual apple is called an orange. And then, one day somebody said to you hey, would you like an orange like a real orange, an actual orange? And you said to them that's not an orange. I don't know what that is, but this is what an orange is. And you show them an apple and the person laughs and says what are you talking about? That's an apple, that's not an orange. And the person said, no, no, no, you got it all wrong. This is an orange, because I've been told this is an orange like for years now. And the fun thing that I like about that example is, you know, if somebody explains the wrong thing to you and that becomes your norm, then that sets the stage for the right type of understanding for you, for that thing, for the rest of your useful time, that you're using that thing Right, and so that's. This is kind of what's happened with agility right, with individuals and teams and orgs. There's been a misunderstanding of what agility is from the get-go and that misunderstanding has just continued down the path and long into the journey individuals and teams and orgs have got to thinking that this actual apple is an orange and they've got it all wrong from the get go. And then when somebody gives them an actual orange. They're like oh, I don't like the way this tastes, I don't like this at all.
Speaker 2:The second example of the two that I mentioned that I can share with you that comes to mind in terms of genuineness here is I was working with another agile coach once and we were late one day it was like past 6pm and I was walking him out to his car in the parking lot and he was a great agile coach, as an agile coach goes very academic and his disposition not very human, and I got deeper insight as to why that might have been that particular evening when I was walking him out to his car and I noticed that, in addition to the outside of his car being really dirty and it looked like it hadn't been washed in months and months, his car was a real mess. There was like food wrappers and half eaten food on the floor and what looked like dirty laundry and just it was just really messy inside the car. And that sort of you know gave me some insight as to how this what this person thinks about themselves to begin with, and so what that means to me, mark, is one of the other things I love saying is, in order to be a really great agile coach, you first need to be the right agile coach to yourself. You first need to look in the mirror and do the hard work of showing up as the greatest version of yourself. And if you have the honest conversation with the person you see in the mirror and there's something lacking there, then that's the hard work to do first, before you come out into the world and attempt to preach and teach agility when you know to you it might just be nothing more than a nine to five, a hat that you put on at 9 am and take off at 5 or 6 pm. And I personally the reason I use those words is because that's not the kind of Agile coach I am. It's not a nine to five for me. It's not a hat that I can take off and put back on.
Speaker 2:Agility is a way of life for me. It extends into my personal being. It extends into my home, into my lifestyle. It extends into my friendships, everything I do. It's a living, breathing thing for me when I go out into the Agile world. Of course, the low-hanging fruit for me are all the measurable metrics that orgs like to look at to make processes and systems better. But in addition to that. I like doing a lot of the shadow work, which I call shadow work, by working on the actual humans and trying to make them actual, better human beings. And one side effect of that is, I can almost guarantee you, if we work on Mark Metz, by making Mark Metz the greatest version of himself, a great side effect of that will be whatever Mark does will improve whatever Mark does will improve.
Speaker 1:So, kamal, it's pretty fair to say I mean, I don't know any successful hypocrites out there, right? Nobody really likes to hear the mantra do as I say, not as I do, right, exactly, I never use that as a parent. Never, ever, never use that phrase as a parent. Absolutely Amen, ever, never use that phrase as a parent. Absolutely Amen to that. But I love your genuineness that you bring. I love how you care deeply for people and how you feel the need to be open and honest and sharing both the successes as well as the challenges. I do want to pivot just slightly for one, because I want to be sure we get to this, and you and I talked you've got an 80-20 rule and I want you to tell our listeners out there what is this 80-20 rule that you've come up with?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, so my 80-20 rule is something that I came up with personally many, many years ago and it's kind of like it's a thing that I do every morning when I wake up. I wake up an hour before I actually have to, so I can consciously plan my day and think about my day, no matter how simple or complex it may be. And the moment I turn the electronic devices on, the messages start coming in and the fires start coming in, and it tends to absolutely parasitically dominate your day in terms of how you're going to go about handling that day. I came up with my 80-20 rule and what it simply means is I spend 80% of my time and energy on the fires that need to be put out, and I always try to spend at least 20% of my time and energy on the systems that might have helped create those fires to begin with, to help create environments where those fires don't necessarily exist to begin with. And those fires can be personal. They can be personal issues, they can be professional issues, and that's what my 80, 20 rule is.
Speaker 2:And and there's another small caveat to that rule that I can share so I'm a big uh racing fan, I'm a big motorsport fan, and one of the things we say in racing is slow is accurate and accurate becomes fast. No-transcript. Actually slow the processes down and work on accuracy of information received and accuracy of the why behind the desired results. And what I like to tell leadership is you will eventually. You will initially see a slowing of things, and that's by design by me, so that we can get a handle on the accuracy of things. And once the accuracy of things start becoming better, and once the accuracy of things start becoming better, a fantastic organic side effect of that will be the speeding up of things and that is that's directly related to my 80-20 rule.
Speaker 1:So that's wonderful. So I'm thinking about how I can apply that, and what's bitten me on that, and so I'll just openly share, is that I've been looking for a job, I've been unemployed and I've been looking for my next role. Unfortunately, I was in a situation where I was let go rather unexpectedly not even rather like extremely unexpectedly and so my first reaction was oh my gosh, I just need to apply to as many positions as I can, as fast as I can. You know, it's kind of like in a baseball game. The thinking is well, the more times that I come to bat, the greater of a chance I'm going to have of getting a hit. But if you think about that, if you're just literally running up to the home plate and not even getting your feet set and you're just swinging okay, missed that one, now go run up again and try another how effective is that approach really going to be? And so I had to intentionally slow myself down and say okay, I'm going to stop just sending these blind applications out, just hoping that one person decides to give me a callback, because it just wasn't working. The data spoke for itself. I wasn't getting any return calls, and so it wasn't until I was very intentional to build relationships and have strong connections and focus my time on those, not on let me just put as many applications as possible as I can in, but let me focus on the ones that I feel like are really worth the time and investment in. That's when I started seeing success.
Speaker 1:So, applying that 80-20 rule that you talked about, I'll second and third that that is absolutely fantastic advice because it's easy to get caught up in the busyness of life, in the busyness of work, and when a million different requests are coming your way.
Speaker 1:And in our work, like in software, you've got so many people requesting to have so many things done, how do you, how do you shut out the noise? And it's very important for you to not have to say yes to everything but to say I hear all these requests but I'm going to say no to 90% of it. The top 10%. That's truly the most important. That aligns with the company goals, that's going to give value to our customers. We're going to focus on that and I'm sorry for that 90% that I'm and it may seem like I'm saying no to everything. Just understand I am saying no to some things so that we can do other things really well, and so that's what I get from your 80-20 rule. And the other visual that I get is you and I talked about this is you're in a boat and the boat is taking on water and you're so busy bailing out water out of the boat that you're never making time to try to fix the hole that's in the hull.
Speaker 1:I don't have time for that. I've just got to bail the water. Yes, you need to spend that 80% bailing the water out, but at some point you've got to give some time to fix the root problem or you're going to be bailing water forever.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, mark. I love everything you said, and it's the right organizations that understand this, that understand agility, and the organizations that didn't, that got into agility without properly understanding it. They're the ones that are just continuously focused on trying to dump the water out of the boat without actually plugging up the hole chaos that ensues.
Speaker 1:There are some people that really, I will say, thrive, but they really welcome that chaos, so much so that they're really, you know, it's almost like an endorphin rush for them, because they get to swoop in and be the hero and to to save everything, because they were able to avert this crisis. And so have you had situations like that, where it seemed like chaos was just a way of life until the Superman or Superwoman came in to save the day. And it's like, wait a minute, we're falling into a pattern here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my God, that totally hits home. Yeah, oh my God, that totally hits home. Yeah, there's examples that I can share that I've been in, where you know there's people, that sort of individuals, that self-sabotage their environments just so they can create a reality where they're always seen as the magical firefighter, where they're always seen as the magical firefighter. This is partly what I mean by shadow work when I say there's something deeper about those types of individuals that deserves to be extrapolated in an effort to help create better, long-term environments for them. Like, why does that kind of a person feel that way? Why do they feel like they always need to be the magical firefighter and why are they sabotaging you know, inadvertently sabotaging environments and systems so that they remain on that list of magical firefighters? So, yeah, I can definitely relate to that.
Speaker 1:So definitely not the type person that is going to make your team, make your organization, make your group better. You have a sense that it's all about them, right, right?
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely, yeah, and there's something's something you know, I I I also minored in psychology and it's very fascinating to me when I subjectively step outside of my role as as a coach or a scrum master and I think about individuals like that at a psychological level and it it shifts my paradigm in terms of how I approach people like that and that's very meaningful to me. Also, the psychological component of my take on agility is something very powerful to me as well.
Speaker 1:You know the ugly. Truth is, though, kamal, that sometimes those people, they do rise to the top because they are seen as as being valuable, as being indispensable, as being needed, and so it's hard to it's hard to deal with that, so how have you dealt with that in the past, in a in a positive, or maybe even in a in a in a critical manner? How have you dealt with with that type of situation in the past?
Speaker 2:Well, that's interesting. It reminds me of a question I was asked by an individual once who said to me where does an agile coach in the organization ascend to? What's the next position for an agile coach? And I said well, that's a very loaded question. It depends on the organization. It depends on you know their, their size. There's many factors there.
Speaker 2:And this person said well, I would tend to think the next level would be CEO. And I got a little bit of a chuckle out of that. And this person said why do you laugh? I said well, I think I humbly say I couldn't disagree more, because a great CEO and a great agile coach are two very different individuals. They've gotten to where they are really really differently. If they've done it correctly, and how they see a given challenge are two very different ways and I don't think, in my opinion, that they're interchangeable. Now, if you have the wrong CEO, the wrong type of CEO and the wrong type of Agile coach, sure, those might be able to be interchangeable, but if you've got the right type of CEO and the right type of Agile coach, I think those are two vastly different positions that are fueled by two vastly different mindsets.
Speaker 1:So, kamal, our time is coming rapidly to an end here. I want to bring it back to our original question and our title for today's episode and ask you so tell us again, maybe give us a summary. Can anyone be an Agile coach?
Speaker 2:So, mark, I would say the short answer is yes. If we say can anyone be an Agile coach? Yeah sure, anyone can be an an agile coach. Yeah sure, anyone can be an agile coach. But, as with many things in life, the devil's in the details If you really want to be a great agile coach and a legendary agile coach. I think the conversation is a bit deeper than just a yes or a no, because I feel, in my opinion, a great Agile coach needs to have many more human attributes than just an academic understanding of Agile.
Speaker 1:Kamal, if our listeners out there want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2:LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. If you just type in my full name, Kamal Kalra, you can find me on LinkedIn. That would be the best place.
Speaker 1:All right, as always, we'll put a link to that in the show notes to make it easy for our listeners to get in touch with you, kamal, thank you so much for coming on the show, really enjoyed it. I just feel like there's a lot of commonality between us and it's just been a pleasure having you on the show, buddy.
Speaker 2:The pleasure is all mine, Mark. It's always wonderful to connect with you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for this time and space, and that brings it into another episode of the Agile Within. We'll see everybody next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the agile within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the agile within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues until next time. This has been your host, Mark Metz.