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The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
The Importance of Deep Thinking with Hassan Butt
Have you ever been "in the zone" on a critical task when suddenly a notification derails your focus completely? That mental whiplash isn't just frustrating. It's eroding our ability to solve complex problems in today's hyperconnected workplace.
Hassan Butt takes us on a fascinating journey from contact center roles to becoming a respected Agile practitioner, sharing how his own struggle with imposter syndrome evolved into expertise on creating environments where deep thinking can flourish. "Complex tasks don't respond well to chaos," Hassan explains, highlighting why protecting cognitive space has become essential for modern knowledge work.
Our conversation explores the crucial distinction between merely complicated tasks (those we've done before) and truly complex challenges that require sustained mental focus—the type increasingly demanded in today's workplace. Hassan unpacks practical strategies for protecting deep work, from creating information repositories to establishing team agreements about communication protocols. You'll learn how to advocate for deep thinking to different stakeholders by framing the benefits in language that resonates with their specific priorities.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Hassan's blend of psychological insight with practical implementation. You'll discover how the "mirroring effect" can establish cultural norms around focused work and how small changes in communication patterns can dramatically improve cognitive clarity across teams. The episode concludes with Hassan sharing his "Deep Work Kit", a resource designed to help teams implement deep thinking practices systematically.
Whether you're a team leader frustrated by meeting overload or an individual seeking to reclaim your focus in a notification-saturated world, this conversation provides both the conceptual framework and practical tools to transform how you approach deep thinking at work.
Connect with Hassan on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nohassagile/
Download Hassan's Deep Thinking Kit:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XbOkyUUajrvXuZjvqQPIlHAn-HCWzP_J/view?usp=sharing
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now. Attention, scrum Masters and Agile enthusiasts, are you ready to level up your skills and connect with the best in the industry? Well, the Online Scrum Master Summit is your chance to hear from world-class Agile experts, gain real-world insights and explore the latest trends shaping the future of Agile. Best of all, it's 100% free and completely online. Happening from June 17th through the 19th, this event brings together thousands of like-minded professionals for engaging talks, interactive sessions and hands-on workshops. Don't miss this opportunity to sharpen your skills and expand your network. Sign up now at onlinescrummastersummitcom. And now on to the show. Welcome back to the Agile Within everybody. This is your host, as always, mark Metz. My guest for today's episode is Hassan Butt. Hassan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hi Mark, Thanks for having me. Super, super excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:You and I have been talking about this for quite a while. We've had some schedule difficulties, but we finally found time to get together and you've been on my list for quite a while now to bring on the show, so thank you for coming on. Hassan is from Bradford, england, and I want to find out first of all, hassan, if I was coming to Bradford for a day and had never been there before, what's one thing that Hassan would say that I couldn't miss doing?
Speaker 2:There are a few things that Bradford are famous for. It's just actually won the culture. I think it's won the culture award for 2025. So there's been a lot of press about Bradford, but for me, it's all about the cuisine. People come from up and down the country to come and try the food. Whether you like desserts, you're a savory person, you like spicy, you know different types of flavors Italian, indian, and so on and so forth there's something for everyone. It's the capital when it comes to food, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:So what's your favorite type of?
Speaker 2:food. So for listeners who are maybe not from the uk, there's a there's somewhat of a delicacy which is cheap and cheerful, which which is always a good thing, and it's called a spicy dipped chicken burger and it's one of my, one of my favorite things cheese slice on top with with some with some fries, and a cold drink goes down a tree every single time, but if I'm with family, it might be a steak or if I'm feeling traditional, maybe a curry of some kind.
Speaker 1:Wow, you've got me intrigued, so I've got to try that now. That sounds really really good. Well, hasan, before we get started, I thought it would be interesting for you to introduce yourself to our audience and let us know a little bit about who you are, your background.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. So I've already said to Mark I'm not much of a speaking about myself, but I do think there is importance in my story and what I want to do is maybe light some passion within people who think they're not good enough or they suffer from imposter syndrome. I started off well. I did a traditional route within the UK of, you know, doing a degree, found myself stuck in contact center roles where I didn't really feel like I was fulfilling my potential. One day, through a lot of perseverance and hard work, I managed to get myself into a new role after doing loads of voluntary work and trying to build on my experience, and I managed to land the role of a scrum master.
Speaker 2:Fast forward since that time where I didn't feel like I was good enough for the job full of imposter syndrome, surrounded by loads of senior leaders around me who had just transitioned sideways, where I went from, you know, from the bottom to the top, you know very much fearing. I didn't know anything. I didn't know everything. I had to learn absolutely everything and I couldn't satisfy for anything less than knowing every single answer. Here I am today. You know delivering talks a lot more comfortable in my shell. I appreciate how good I am and what I can bring to the table, my uniqueness as an individual. And yeah, it's been a magical journey, but I've managed to do that.
Speaker 2:Coming from the contact centers, there's a lot of debate outside of this. Mark, you'll know, so-and-so is not technical enough. How do they fulfill these roles? You know they need to be more technical. We're in that kind of environment. But what I will say is that every day is an opportunity to learn and if you put the hard work in, there's no reason why you can't bridge the gap. We're not all born geniuses, but there's no reason why we can't start to learn and bridge that gap.
Speaker 1:I resonate very much with the humility, with imposter syndrome, because I suffer from that as well and just say it's such a pleasure and an honor to have you here. You've got a great online presence, you've got a great reputation, so I'm very honored to have you here on the show. Well, today's episode is titled the Importance of Deep Thinking, and so I first want to start out Hasan, help us to define what is deep thinking, to define what is deep thinking.
Speaker 2:Sure. So for me it's imagining you're as an individual, but I always stress this the most of the conversations I have around deep thinking are how you can improve it within teams, but all of the information I tend to share is also applicable to individuals, so please note that you can use it for yourself as well. Yeah, imagine you're deep in the zone and you're working on a critical task. A senior leader has said to you you know, hassan, mark, we need this done today. So you know you're working on it.
Speaker 2:And then, all of a sudden, a notification pops up Could be a Slack message, a Teams message, any kind of notification. Now, all of a sudden, you've looked at it, you've maybe answered the query that's come up, something that, again, was deemed urgent. Now, when you go back to doing that critical task, all of a sudden, you've lost your flow and you're really struggling to get back into the groove. What once made sense doesn't make sense at all. You just feel yourself staring into space. Deep thinking was what you originally achieved and then, after the notification, what you lost was the end result of not understanding things.
Speaker 1:Can you give us an example of where deep thinking was broken in your real life and the effects of that? Share with us an example from you personally, and then let's share an example of you at a team level.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, like probably many listeners, you know I'm, I have a partner, I have children. That's one thing I do know is is every every minute moment of the day my children would like my time. It's really hard sometimes to get down some critical thinking, for example, if I need to deliver a presentation. You'll know, mark, that my talk has been doing the rounds recently on this specific topic and it's not the easiest thing to do when you know my maybe my child is knocking on the door saying dad, I want to, I want to play a game together. When are we going to do, you know this? When we're going to, when are we going to go to the park?
Speaker 2:And it is almost an emotional pull and a want and a desire to do everything. But I very much realize, as soon as I start maybe not focusing on the work I'm trying to do everything. But I very much realized, as soon as I start maybe not focusing on the work I'm trying to achieve, everything almost gets pushed to the back and before I know it, I'm trying to do something at midnight and I'm unable to complete it with the same vigor and passion and focus of what I might've been able to do during the day if I'd have focused out some time, set some time aside to make sure I'm doing what I set out to do originally. So having a plan and I think this is really important and this is something we can touch upon later is communicating with others. It's not enough for me to just set my timer on and say I'm going to do half an hour of focus time and I'm going to do this specific task. There are other individuals within the same house as me taking the time to communicate with other people within my environment my wife, my children. That daddy's going to go do some focus work. I need for you to not interrupt me for that or come and knock on my door for the next half an hour or so, or ask mommy before you come and knock on my door, just as a control.
Speaker 2:We sometimes assume, when trying to protect your deep thinking time, that it's enough to just have that conversation with your inner self and say and that's a battle in itself, right To dedicate some time to focus on something when you could be playing computer games, watching a TV, a TV show, a movie and so on and so forth, or listening to your favorite podcast, like you are today on the Agile Within, but you have to be ruthless, almost, with it. You have to make sure that you're dedicating that time, but you also have to educate others around you, because if people don't understand what you're trying to achieve, what you're trying to do, it's going to fall on deaf ears and, before you know it, all the hard work you channel with your inner self is going to be broken in a matter of moments, innocently, of course.
Speaker 1:So I've got a question for you on that, because this can happen, even though you don't intend for it to be. But maybe it's just a personality quality or a personality trait of you. Maybe you're the type of person that just maintain a stern face and when you tell people, maybe, as a dad, let's use as a reference. This is my complete antithesis because I am the ultimate teddy bear when it comes to I've got a huge heart. But let's say, if you just have this persona where you just are really gruff and you tell your kids you're like dad has important things to do and don't interrupt dad for the next 30 minutes, and the kids are downstairs and they noticed that the stove was left on and there was a piece of paper on the stove and all of a sudden there's a fire that starts.
Speaker 1:Well, dad said very unequivocally do not interrupt dad for the next 30 minutes. So does the child obey because dad might be angry if he gets interrupted. That's a silly example. I mean, every kid I hope would know that it's okay to interrupt dad in that case. But in our own lives, how do we show up? Do we show up in such a way that, if an emergency does happen? Our teams, our people, our individuals do? They shy away from coming to us because of the way that we have represented ourselves? Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2:That makes 100% sense. And again, this is really interesting because one of the things my teams any person who's listening to this, who's worked with me before, will know that I'm a very approachable person and I like to ooze positivity with consistency. And it's not positivity for the sake of it. I just have lived a life where I know there's worse things that could be happening in life. I'm getting the opportunity to work with awesome people and awesome projects, trying to deliver fantastic things. Yeah, it might not always be sunshine and roses, but I'm pretty sure there's people out there that would give their right arm to be in my position working with these teams and doing these great things. Reflecting back on myself working in a contact center rather than answering the phones, even though it was an honest job and I was happy to help people. If I could go back to that individual and say, right, you've got an opportunity to work with team delivering these awesome projects for a massive company, I'd probably bite your hand off. And if I saw my future self complaining, being negative about doing this job, I'd probably want to give myself a good shake and say you know what are you playing at? What are you doing here? You're so lucky. You're so fortunate to be in this position. Enjoy it, embrace it.
Speaker 2:Every time my teams come to me with a problem, you know and I this this language that I use. I use it at home, I use it within my teams. When mistakes happen, I say accidents happen. It's a phrase my children use often if they see me drop something, and it's so sweet when I see my own child look up, look up at me and say it's okay, daddy, accidents happen. I'm trying to teach that and ingrain that within my teams, because there's a fear culture, unfortunately, that when you do experiments or you try something new, or you're doing your work from day to day, and you make a mistake, you're going to be punished or there's going to be some scary thing which is going to come of it. And it's about trying to break that fear culture and get people in a position where they feel excited about their work, they don't feel afraid to make mistakes, they know that it's a learning opportunity.
Speaker 2:Of course, if we're not learning from something, that's not good, and that's when you need to change. Can we be too approachable? Yes, 100%. And it goes back to the idea of kind of almost being a teacher. Some of my best mentors teachers were the ones that didn't give me all the answers, but I did know if it got to a point where I was really, really, really, really struggling, I was at the bottom of the barrel, they would come out and they'd support me, they'd give me some ideas, they'd give me some, maybe some direction.
Speaker 2:I think you can be in a position where you give all the answers and that's no good because you're almost acting as a crud and when you're not there anymore, that person's going to struggle. And on the opposite hand, if you give them absolutely zero, then again it's the, it's the same thing. You know they're not going to know where to go, what direction to go into. You're almost becoming, as Gordon Ramsay would put it, a busy idiot. You're putting all your energy in the wrong places because you don't understand where to start. I said to you, mark, at the start of this I'm a person who point me in a direction. Let me go and off I go, almost like a Jerusalem burner. I'm off to the races. So I think giving that kind of insight to someone, this is where you start and how you want to get to the end destination is up to you, and let them pave the way.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you, San, what is required for deep thinking?
Speaker 2:Sure. So for me, mark, whenever I try to share the practices of deep thinking within teams I've worked with, it's all good me being an advocate of deep thinking. But if the others don't see or they don't buy into what deep thinking is and what the benefits are, then there's no real point. Because, just like anything in life, if I am not a fan of something, I'm not going to make use of it. Think of it like mobile phones You're either an Android user or an Apple user. If I don't get behind one of them, I'm not going to continuously use it. I might use it for a day. Then I'll put it down. I'll go revert back to type. You know, I'll revert back to the model that I like or the way of working that I like to work in. I think of a diet. A diet's good right, yeah, diet's good right, yeah, but you use it. 100 a diet or exercise. You know anyone who goes to the gym. You know there's some interesting points of the psychology of mirroring things and why people tend to do better when they go to the gym versus when they do exercise at home. Surrounding yourself by like-minded individuals who are on the similar journey or the same journey makes you more inclined to persevere with the work that you're doing at hand. So that ties back into what I do with teams. I want the buy-in, I want them all in a position where they see the value and they agree. My bartering tool, or a way of saying this to my team members, is my job, or what I'm here to do is I'm here to help you do your job better. I want you to succeed. I want you to have all the things that you need to do your work. And, in a utopia, if I was to give you a critical task to complete a complex task, what would you want? What would be the conditions that you would need? Probably time, space, minimal distractions, a chance to focus, to think deeply and to get into the groove, into the flow. Because, as we know, mark, you've got a background in software development. Complex tasks don't respond well to chaos. Complex tasks don't respond well to chaos. You know. You need clarity, you need that cognitive runway to get you know. Get into the group so you understand exactly what you're doing. You know. So that's the utopia.
Speaker 2:And then I say to the individual right, so what does a normal day look like then? And they say, well, hassan, on a normal day I get pulled into five meetings. I get, you know, 10 messages saying just a second. I just want to you know, wondering if we can touch base on this specific topic. Uh, what's the latest on this piece of work, this complex work that you're working on, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:What I pitch is I want to give you what you initially asked for, but I can't do it by myself. There's going to be a few trade-offs where I need a few things from you so that I can give you these things that you're trying to get a hold of. Does that seem fair? And 99.9% of the time, the people I speak to are on board and they can see the value in it. And I say, like anything, it's just an experiment. Guys and girls, it's an experiment, we'll try it. If you detest it, you hate it, you don't see any value in it whatsoever, we'll drop it. I'm never, ever, precious about embedding an experiment or embedding a way of working. For me, it's not a one shoe fits all approach. There might be one or two things that people can take away from the model that I share with how I put it together, and they might not. And if they don't no problem and if they do fantastic.
Speaker 1:I want to ask you is deep thinking, does it apply just to individuals, or can you apply it as a group, where a group is involved in deep thinking?
Speaker 2:Whenever I talk about deep thinking, I always talk about it specifically within teams, creating an environment for people to do deep thinking.
Speaker 2:And whilst, yes, the actions or controls, guardrails that you might put in place might improve the individuals within the team, there's going to be instances where team members might come together and they're going to be responsible for helping each other.
Speaker 2:I mentioned already about the mirroring effect, if you can take the time to mirror an individual. So, for example, I know Google were doing some sessions where they were getting onto meetings and just doing their work in silence, and that feeling of knowing that your colleague is not playing video games, is not watching a movie, but is actually cracking on with some real important, complex work makes you feel like you want to do the same. You know you want to match that energy, you want to go that bit further. You want to. You know you want to do that piece of work, but also you will. You'll know of other things mark like pair programming, mobbing. If I could create an environment where we could get two developers, three developers, four developers, a space where no one's going to interrupt them, no one's going to come and bother them, no one's going to ask them for updates every two seconds, then no doubt that deep thinking as a group would be that much more improved.
Speaker 1:So I have to share an example from my past on that. That is, I think, probably is the top experience I have been a part of, with deep thinking. And this was a particular group, that a group of developers they were all about the same age had the similar likes and interests professional interests as well as outside of their career. They just generally liked each other. And this wasn't anything that I did. This was something that they did. I just happened to be able to witness it.
Speaker 1:And so they started challenging some of the activities that I was doing because, quite frankly, they were mob or I think the term is ensemble now to make it more sound, a little less, a little less threatening, but they were doing mob or ensemble programming a majority of the day.
Speaker 1:Yes, they would have breaks where they would talk about something fun, but they were very much working together. They were very, very good at it, and one of the things they questioned was do we need a daily scrum? Do we need a daily stand up point? We're already in touch all throughout the day. So they really worked as a team and you know, it's almost a thing where, when the team is working so well together and they're so engaged, you'll find that people don't want to interrupt them, right? If somebody is sitting alone and they're working and you're like, hey, maybe I'll just interrupt this person. But when you see a group and they're just super engaged, you're like, oh, probably not a good time, Maybe I better come back. So just the act of doing that in and of itself reduced some of the interruptions.
Speaker 2:Just the act of doing that in and of itself reduced some of the interruptions. To be honest, I can see a lot of things that resonate with me there and I think one thing to point out is the difference of in-person working to virtual working, because you rightly mentioned there, when people physically see people busy at work, they're less inclined, you know. You think if you've got a room booked out, you know, so someone might be less inclined to knock on that because they see people are busy doing their work versus people are just in a chat and they've got so many different avenues of. You know you're able to access them. Mark's in a meeting on teams, but his slack shows he's online. I'll drop him a slack message and so on and so forth. So you know, or his emails are there, I'll drop him an email, I'll ping him.
Speaker 2:And how often do we see, with the modern day area of not everyone's on the cameras, it's easy to not be present and all of a sudden, you know Mark speaking, but I'm checking my emails.
Speaker 2:You know someone's just pinged me because they want to book me in for another talk maybe, or I'm doing something else. Intro you know someone, something else is coming up and my cognitive capacity is being pulled in so many different directions that I just can't focus. I can't get into the zone, even on this call, for example. You know, whilst we're having this chat, I might be getting pulled out from so many different avenues. My phone might be vibrating in my pocket and that's making me think. I I wonder who's messaging me. I might see someone walking down the street wave at me Again. It's just making your brain tick and tick, and tick and tick and get pulled in so many different avenues that everything just becomes so diluted. It's an unfortunate thing that we have to deal with these days, but this is why deep thinking is important and this is why I'm such a massive advocate for it.
Speaker 1:How do we scale that? How do we gain awareness throughout our teams, throughout our organizations, the importance of deep thinking, what it is and so that we do limit these interruptions that come in?
Speaker 2:So interesting that you mentioned that, actually, because I just did a talk yesterday with a lovely company called Opencast who invited me to do a talk, and they specifically are a consultancy, so they work with clients. So a lot of my conversation was tailoring it to how you would deal with clientele and stakeholders. From your clients is from your clients and for me it's all about being comfortable in first actually believing in what you're talking about so you know that there's real benefit from there, and making sure that when you articulate yourself you're talking in the language of the person that you're speaking to. For example, I know, mark, already from speaking to you that you were a software developer, so there's certain things that you have a passion for. So when I say you'll have more time to do your development work and you will be interrupted, you know that hits a chord with you and you can get behind it. If I'm speaking to a senior leader or a client in the context of clients money talks and if I can tell that individual that from doing this they're going to save money, money, that's going to be my first getting them interested or hooking them. Hooking, you know hooking them in, getting the door slightly opened, you know, challenging their thoughts and maybe, you know, intriguing them as to what this actually may be. So it's one thing. So it's one thing getting them intrigued, but then you've got to back it up right. And this is where I think, starting off with with a small team or a team running these experiments, creating some actual measures that you can take and say, okay, look, this team improved, you know, throughput, the cycle time improved, and so on and so forth, the item age improved. So you've got all these flow metrics that you can look at. Maybe the morale alone improved, the way in which they're understanding. It might not be something specifically tangible, but it's something there that you can measure and say, right, okay, this, this improved.
Speaker 2:And then going back to those senior leaders and saying I'm not coming empty-handed because, if you think of it, nobody wants someone to come empty-handed to you know a scenario or situation. But if you can come bearing fruit, bearing gifts of ideas and measures and value, that person's going to sit there and take heed rather than just me talking about something with no proof. So I think, number one understand the language of the individual you're speaking to and try to mirror that. Again, it goes back to psychology mirroring a person's language mannerisms we can see, I know you everyone listening today can't see me and Mark, but full of smiles.
Speaker 2:Mark smiles, I smile, I smile, mark smiles. It's just a natural thing. And it's the same thing when you're speaking to individuals. So if you can mirror their tone, their language, they're going to be more open to listening to what you've got to say. So I think talking the right language, having the right tangible proof measures that you can use and show them, this is the value that this can bring. Maybe say this is what we've done internally within the teams that we work with, within our consultancy, this is the value is brought with other companies and so on and so forth. And here's the value here that we think we can bring to your team and how we can save you money and become more efficient so your teams can get things over the line both faster but with the right kind of value and quality that you desire.
Speaker 1:Are there any techniques that you've applied, maybe across a team or across a department? Is there any tools that you've applied to help with this? And I'll give you an example. One of the things that I've done in the past is establish a no meeting Friday. What are some other tools maybe that you might have for starting to establish that deep thinking time?
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of it and I probably didn't touch about it enough as I should have within the previous question that you gave me but a lot of it is about education and setting up controls, making things easy for people to access, because, at the end of the day, this senior leader, for example, who wants to know what the latest is on this complex matter or this issue that you know that has arisen, if you can facilitate a way for them to access that same information without having to ping your developer or you know the person doing the work, you're then taking that the interruption, out of the equation. So things I like to do is, for example, a confluence page maybe, maybe a pattern of what, what a person can do or steps that a person can take to get the information that they're after. You know you need to. You want to understand what's the latest on this piece of information. Here is our board. There will be all the listed pieces of work that you're after, rightly labeled. Click on the one you want, go to the comment section, check the latest piece of commentary, what the latest is, and see if that suits what you're trying to achieve. If not, come and speak to me first and I'm able to give you some more information. So setting up some controls. And again, this is where the trade-offs happen, because I would have spoken to my team and said for me to get you this break so you can do your work, I need you to be kind enough to put the commentary in and it's that trade-off between the two. I'm giving you some shallow piece of work, some admin for the trade of your deep work, where you can actually get focused and do your piece of work. So that's an example of a control, but it's education.
Speaker 2:So there's many things that tie in well, and I think one of the Achilles heels of a lot of senior leaders in the modern day era is the lack of appreciation for complex work, the differences, the nuances between something which is complicated ie, I've done this a hundred times but it's still quite complicated to do or this is complex. I've never seen anything like this before. I'm doing it for the first time. It's something different. It's uncharted waters, the fog is dense, I can't see where I'm going versus.
Speaker 2:I've trodded this path, you know, hundreds of times. It's a difficult path, but I can do it. I've done it before and I feel a lot of senior leaders struggle so that education. There's a framework I'm going to butcher the pronunciation here it's either the Knafen or Kenevin framework and it talks about these things and what I like to do is run workshops and take the time to educate senior leaders on the differences between complexity, complicated and so on and so on. Something which is clear and something which is chaotic in terms of the workflow or work streams that we work in and that usually is a brilliant opener into helping people understand and appreciate why deep thinking is important.
Speaker 1:So this is great. Hassan, you talked about education. You and I had talked about some work that you're doing, a work kit that you're working on. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I want this to be as accessible as possible. Right as I've kind of gone on my journey through my career so far, I've I've learned that I always used to think knowledge was power, but now I believe sharing knowledge is the true power. What I have done is put together a deep work kit so people can have a quick insight into, you know, a roadmap or mechanics they can use to embed deep work within their teams. It's got some, it's got some further learning in there, so things that I've taken inspiration from some, you know, some books, some podcasts you know I've quoted the talk today because I'm hoping it's going to be useful and and some of the bits and bobs that I think would be really, really useful for people who want to get into deep work but not sure where to start.
Speaker 1:We'll put a link to that in the show notes so people can get to it very easily. Thank you very much for sharing that. I want to ask you for our listeners out there who might want to get in touch with you what's the best way for them to do that, San?
Speaker 2:So the best way to reach out to me is probably going to be my LinkedIn. So it's the normal LinkedIn forward slash. No has agile and that's the best way you can get to me, and I'm sure Mark will be kind enough to put my LinkedIn address in the show.
Speaker 1:We'll definitely do that. Well, hassan, we really ran out of time. There's more meat left on the bone, so I want to do a part two to this episode. So that's the cliffhanger. So, hassan, thank you for what you do. Give back to the Agile community, appreciate your service to that, and it's just been a true pleasure to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. I hope those who are listening find benefit from this and, yeah, watch this space. Can't wait for part two Awesome.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody that brings it into another episode of the agile within. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the agile within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the agile within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.
