Patient Gardening for Rapid Enrollment Growth

In this episode of TRANSFORMED, Joe speaks with Jeffrey Morin, President of the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design (MIAD), about how a patient, community-centered approach can drive significant institutional transformation. Drawing parallels between higher ed and perennial gardening, Jeff shares how MIAD has cultivated enrollment growth, boosted student retention, and modernized campus operations—all while remaining fiscally disciplined and true to its values.

Listeners will hear how deliberate change management, inclusive curricular reform, and smart, transparent use of technology and data helped MIAD double in size without losing its soul. This conversation offers a thoughtful, human take on how small institutions can grow with purpose and agility in an era of increasing skepticism toward higher ed’s value.

References: 

Jeffrey Morin

MIAD

Subscribe or follow TRANSFORMED wherever you listen, to get the latest episode when it drops and hear directly from leaders and innovators in higher ed tech and digital transformation best practices.

Find and follow us on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/company/higher-digital-inc

Transcript

Jeffrey Morin: 0:00

Looking at economic models, what's the best size for the institution? 1250 is a perfect size for this institution based on revenue, based on infrastructure, based on physical plant of the campus. That's doubling the size of the institution. For some schools, moving up by 600 students is not very dramatic. When it's doubling the size of the institution, then it's dramatic. And then it's change, and change has to be made palatable to the community. That's part of the work that has to be done. And that means explaining every step of the way where we're headed.

Joe Gottlieb: 0:48

That's Jeff Morin, president of Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design. stressing the importance of patience and ongoing communications throughout the community when planning and executing transformational growth. We talked about the important similarities of higher education and perennial gardening, MIAD's multi-year sleep, creep, and reap process for managing change, and the impressive outcomes that this approach has produced for this small school where passion finds purpose. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Joe Gottlieb: 1:45

Culture, strategy, and tactics, planning and execution, people, process, and technology. It's all on the menu because that's what's required to truly transform. Hello, and thanks for joining us for another episode of TRANSFORMED. My name is Joe Gottlieb, President and CTO of Higher Digital, and today I am joined by Jeff Morin, President of Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design. Jeff? Welcome to TRANSFORMED.

Jeffrey Morin: 2:16

Thanks, Joe. I'm happy to be here. And I am curious to know what you want to talk about.

Joe Gottlieb: 2:21

I'm glad you asked, Jeff. I want to talk about your thoughts on patient gardening for rapid enrollment growth. But first, I'd love for you to share a bit of your background and how you got connected into the work of higher ed.

Jeffrey Morin: 2:38

I'm right where I think I need to be. And the thought of *find a being in higher ed, I can trace back to kindergarten. I remember a moment in kindergarten where I said or declared I want to be an artist and I want to be a teacher. At that point, I thought teaching meant K-12. I didn't know that a career in teaching really followed a pathway to college and university. I was very fortunate, early on in my time. I grew up in a small town in northern Maine on the border, not from a family that pursued careers or pathways through higher ed. Our high school or middle school got a full-time art teacher when I was in the seventh grade. And I remember walking up to her, her name's Marty Kieser, Martha Kieser, and I remember walking up to her introducing myself, shaking her hand and saying, you better be good at this because this is what I want to do. And I have no idea where someone in the seventh grade develops that level of chutzpah or nerve. Five years later, she's working with me on my portfolio to go off to art school. We get in her pickup and she drives me 500 miles for my first college tour in Rhode Island. That is a dedicated teacher and a great role model. Since then, I went to school in Philadelphia. I studied abroad. I did my graduate work in Wisconsin because my college advisor said, pick a school in a place that you've never been to before. So every college that I applied to for graduate school was in the Midwest. And it was some of the best advice that I got because it wasn't only the experience in the classroom. It was the experience of moving somewhere else. So all of that has led me to a career that's taken me around the world. There's never a moment that I have second guessed that pathway. And I know that not everyone has that moment of clarity in kindergarten, but, um, you know, after 40 years in higher ed now, I can't think of a better life.

Joe Gottlieb: 4:58

Wow, that's a great story and background and love that you are so connected and sure that you're in the place you should be. That must yield a lot of energy. So let's dive into this theme. You employed a very deliberate and patient approach when you arrived at, I'm going to call it MIAD, learn that's the acronym, right? When you arrived at MIAD 10 years ago, you employed a very deliberate and patient approach, knowing that higher education shares a lot of similarities with gardening. Can you elaborate on this?

Jeffrey Morin: 5:35

Happy to. When you think of perennial gardening versus annual gardening, there's an investment of time and intentionality or design in that work. In annual gardening, go out, spend a lot of money, get a lot of very flashy flowering plants, and the job is done. With perennial gardening, you're planning years ahead. And in the first year, you're in that sleep mode where you're making your first decisions, you're not necessarily seeing a lot of results. In year two, you're in that creep mode. You're seeing plants beginning to thrive and grow into the space that you created for them. By year three, you're in the reap or leap mode, where you're really benefiting from the abundance of the work that you've done, the groundwork, literally, the groundwork that you've done. Higher ed is more closely related to gardening or agriculture than any other industry. We have seasons. There are dates by which certain work has to be done, and it is rigid. It's a conversation that I've had to have with my board members and board members at other institutions that higher ed is like agriculture. It's not like sales, and it's not like manufacturing. We might want to do something with the admissions process in July and but it has no relevance. It will have no yield. It won't meet the expectations that you would expect if you're thinking in terms of quarterly sales. So really finding a model to explain our work has also been helpful when working with our board of trustees.

Joe Gottlieb: 7:30

That's very powerful. Just that whole, the whole nature of, in particular, the fixed seasonal shape of higher ed really, really highlights the way one needs to think about the production of new value and change. So thinking about change, MIAD is focused very heavily on first and second year retention. Really, rethinking its first year foundation program during your first creep season. So when you first got there, you looked right at first and second year retention. And so I'd love for you to talk about the changes that you made in that early stage and the impact they've had on student retention.

Jeffrey Morin: 8:15

Yeah, I'll start first with the impact. MIAD, when I arrived at the college, had a retention rate from first to second year of about 69.5%. And this is a very passionate college that believes in the work that it's doing. Yet our peer organization retention rate average was 79%. So why were we underperforming? Today, our retention rate fluctuates, but it sits around 85%. And we made most of that gain within two years, which is really difficult work to do if you think about it and you talk to other presidents about their retention rate. Even with the up heaval over the last four years, we've had very, very steady retention from first to second year. Now, how we got there. We made several changes at the college, but one of the greatest impacts was on retention and learning. And it had to do with making a shift from talking about a freshman foundation curriculum to a first year experience. And this is where we really ran contrary to trends. A lot of colleges encourage their students to discover themselves in the first one or two years. They don't declare a major their first semester of their freshman year. One of the changes that we made was to have them declare their major in their first semester. We don't have an institution that has a lot of student changes in major from year to year. Students come in with some idea of a vocation or a mission. We should take advantage of that, by having them join a community of peers early. The first time we tried curricular reform here, it failed. And I had to understand why it failed. We were only having a conversation in the department that oversaw the curriculum. We weren't having a college-wide conversation. So we opened the curricular development process up to the entire campus, from custodians to career advisors to faculty. The one difference that we made to ensure the primacy of the faculty on the curriculum, faculty members got the equivalent of two votes when it came time to vote for directions or evolutions that we were making in the program. What it did is it brought the entire campus together to think about that first year experience. We don't tend to use terms like freshmen here. It's year one or it's year two or it's year three on their trajectory of graduation. And we really wanted that first year to be an experience. We looked at every aspect of that year. We also framed retention as a moral issue. If students drop out before graduating, all they're left with is debt, and no credential to clear that debt. So in our minds, that's a moral issue when we invite people to incur debt and no way to address it. It's okay for a student to transfer to another institution if we're not a good fit, but it's not okay for a student to drop out if we're the reason why they have to drop out. We also had a conversation with the faculty. The way our previous structure worked with a dedicated foundation faculty, most of the other faculty never met the students that were leaving. And it was a clear statement to make to remind the faculty that we're losing 30% of our students before they meet you, before they know how wonderful and engaged you are. And for some reason, framing it in that way allowed the faculty to see that everyone has a role in retention. So it did shift the culture and shift our focus on retention.

Joe Gottlieb: 12:25

Wow, that's a disruptive, captivating realization. How did you come to realize that the faculty weren't meeting these students? And how did it become so explicit to be able to make that statement and act on it?

Jeffrey Morin: 12:44

Yeah, a couple of different points. When I came to the campus, I used a model that I was used to using in my previous administrative work, starting the academic year with convocation. This is something that we put in place that was new to the college 10 years ago. We put a convocation in place, and I typically would set a theme for that convocation. What's the work that we're going to do this year? We had fun. There's a lot of sort of comedic relief in the structure. It's not formal, very really resonates with the college, but also I had to figure out a way to frame the message in a way that people would get. And it finally dawned on me that faculty were disengaged in that piece of retention work because the view was that that was someone else's, that was another department's responsibility. It was the foundation department's responsibility. If they were succeeding or failing, they were doing it within their own merits. At the same time, we were having a conversation about why the foundation curriculum was not meeting the needs within particular majors. So there was already a critical relationship with how and what was being taught in the first year. Departments within the majors were feeling underfed by that program. So they were thinking that they had to teach a second foundation in the second year for the students specific to their curricular needs. So this opened up a door and a chance to talk about curriculum, to talk about the experience, and to engage faculty within the majors, as well as those responsible for that first year.

Joe Gottlieb: 14:29

Fascinating. Well, in addition to retention, you've seen significant enrollment growth, especially right before and during the COVID-19 pandemic. So love to touch on the strategies you implemented to achieve that growth and how you're planning to sustain it moving forward.

Jeffrey Morin: 14:48

There are a couple of consistent slides in my convocation presentations. And just one quick thing about convocation. I was only used to doing it once a year. After the fall convocation, my first year, faculty came up to me and said, so what are you going to do in the spring? It never dawned on me that you would also have a spring convocation. So we do convocation twice a year. And one of the consistent slides that I bring in is usually something about sort of the crisis moment in higher ed today. And oftentimes within our loose federation of independent art and design colleges, it centers on school closures, college closures and mergers. And the pattern that I started to see that I put to a slide is the fact that most of the colleges closing had an enrollment of 500 students or fewer. When I came to MIAD, we were at 600 students. So we were perilously close to that inflection point where a college was particularly vulnerable. MIAD is self-defined as a scrappy and gritty and modest college. We needed more financial success. It's not a college that had a great track record of regular comprehensive or capital campaigns. So we're very much a tuition driven institution. And that means growth if we want to be able to fund our more ambitious plans moving forward. In the early days of my time on campus, we went through a mission, vision, values process. MIAD was the only place I'd ever been to that only had a mission statement. It didn't have a vision statement for the future and it didn't have a declared set of values that we live by. Although walking the halls, you knew that there was a set of values guiding who we are. So we went through that process. I've got to say one of the sweetest moments in the values development was when we came to the point of insistence that we include kindness as one of our values. So our values are community, courage, inclusion, integrity, and innovation, and kindness. And I thought kindness was such a sweet and disarming word and such a genuine statement by the college about what it values in the same way that we value empathy to a high degree. And you see it in the senior thesis work that all of our students do. You see it in the fact that all of our students do service learning in the community, so that over the last so many years, we've partnered with about 200 nonprofits. We're really living those values, even though we didn't state them.

Joe Gottlieb: 17:54

So you've been able to translate that somehow into growth and enrollment And I have to imagine it's not just by word of mouth. You've probably had to play the similar game of expanding the way that you're doing marketing, I would presume.

Jeffrey Morin: 18:13

Yes, and we have been as transparent as humanly possible with our faculty and staff on that journey. Explaining to our community why 600 as an enrollment with a $3 million endowment at that time was a precarious place to live. And if we truly believed in our mission of serving students in the creative sector and the transformative nature of our educational experience. Our tagline is where passion finds purpose. And I can't imagine a more perfect description of this college. We get students who come to us already with a passion for creativity. And we help to create the purpose, the direction for that passion. We did behind the scenes, we did some very pragmatic work. Looking at economic models, what's the best size for the institution? 1250 is a perfect size for this institution based on revenue, based on infrastructure, based on physical plant of the campus. That's doubling the size of the institution. For some schools, moving up by 600 students is not very dramatic. When it's doubling the size of the institution, then it's dramatic. And then it's change, and change has to be made palatable to the community. That's part of the work that has to be done. And that means explaining every step of the way where we're headed.

Joe Gottlieb: 20:08

We'll be right back.

Emily Rudin: 20:10

Hi, I'm Emily Rudin, Chief Client Officer at Higher Digital and proud sponsor of the TRANSFORMED podcast. Higher Digital is a full-service, product-agnostic consulting company providing strategic, functional, and technical expertise to help colleges and universities navigate digital transformation successfully. We believe true transformation isn't about forcing change. It's about unlocking the potential already within your institution. Our expert teams specialize in creating tailored solutions for your unique challenges, enabling meaningful and measurable progress. Higher education is evolving faster than ever. How is your institution adapting? Let's start the conversation today. Visit higher.digital to learn more.

Joe Gottlieb: 20:58

And now, back to our program.

Joe Gottlieb: 21:04

You mentioned the $3 million endowment. I know that's related to a very strict policy against operating with a deficit budget. And so how does MIAD manage its financial discipline while still investing in strategic initiatives like passion meets purpose?

Jeffrey Morin: 21:23

Great question. I'll start by saying today, any time period over the last decade, there have been scary headlines that point to school closures, school fragility. Those headlines, you know, resonate with our community like they resonate on any campus. And we lean into what makes MIAD different from other institutions. We don't operate with a deficit. In my time here, we have never operated with a budget deficit. We create a balanced budget every year and we create a very conservative balanced budget. We don't utilize a line of credit during the year. Now, that's been a change. When I started here, we used the line of credit for part of the year as part of our operations. We've weaned ourself off of that. And we're also not going to cut our way to success. So when I first got here, what a win looked like, finding $20,000 to put roller shades on the fourth floor of the building. And I was thinking about this the other day. You know, what president has to focus on a $20,000 cost as being institutionally transformational? That was the starting point. Find $20,000 for roller shades. During the pandemic, we spent four and a half million dollars redesigning and rebuilding about 20% of our campus to purpose build it, to bespoke build it for some of our largest majors and some of our add-on centers. That's the amount of change that happened in about five years. Moving from $20,000 being transformational to being able to do multimillion dollar project. That's where I describe the institution as sometimes being modest to a fault. I don't think when I started here that we envisioned the ability to take on projects of that size, and to seek grant funding in the millions. And that's what we've done. That's how we've changed the structure.

Joe Gottlieb: 23:40

You know, it makes me think about organizations I've been in in the past that have been explicitly disciplined financially. And I liken it to fitness. It's not pleasant, but... boy, it beats the alternative, right? You have a certain sense about what you can do. And it breeds a bit of confidence. Would you say that? Did you feel the confidence of your financial discipline allowing you, for example, to make that change to say, all right, it used to be about $20,000 blinds. Now we can focus in on this. But part of what gives us confidence is we know we don't get dreamy about budgets, right? So we're bringing a discipline to even doing those bigger things. Does that translate for you?

Jeffrey Morin: 24:29

It does, and I learned that lesson at my previous institution where I was Dean of Fine Arts and Communication. One story that really sticks with me is a faculty member making an appointment to come in and talk about a project that she wanted to undertake. And she had very carefully written it out, written the budget out and was almost sheepish or nervous about bringing this idea forward. I looked through the idea, we had a pleasant conversation, and I remember vividly sliding the paper back across the desk to her and saying, I think you need to come back with something more ambitious. There's something about starvation thinking, when an institution has lived so long without resources, the innovative thinking really atrophies. And in that previous position, I had used the same approach of sleep, creep, and reap. And we were in that moment where we were starting to reap the benefits of the changes. But that hadn't quite caught up with the thinking amongst the folks wanting to launch new programs. So it was terribly rewarding to ask the person to come back with something more ambitious when they were so used to apologizing for asking for anything. And I think that that's what I found here when I came to MIAD. Dedicated, passionate people so used to making do without that the idea that we would ever have enough funding for something ambitious, just was unimaginable. And using this disciplined approach, and it really is discipline. You may not think of an art and design college as using the word conservative very often, but we budget conservatively because we're always trying to build in the surprise of a game. If we budget very conservatively and start the next year with an uptick in enrollment or a gain in philanthropy, then we can feed something new as opposed to take something away. And I think that that's a very different construct on a lot of campuses today.

Joe Gottlieb: 26:54

I'm so glad you tied it back into the theme because that really brings it home. The effort put forth, the patient effort put forth, created that opportunity for you to do more. And you recognize in that case that you described that people need some time to change, right? They sometimes need some help. And so some encouragement there to say, hey, you know what? We can stick our necks out further because we've created a platform where that won't hurt us.

Jeffrey Morin: 27:28

Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think that the faculty and the staff get it. And we have to continue to do our work of reminding them of what path we're on, why we're on that path, how we're on that path, to the point where we share our operating budget with the entire campus. We put it up on a screen at convocation or at other times, they see the exact same budget that the board of trustees sees. So that nothing is a mystery. And I think that that was a cultural shift here as well. We were used to running more like a mom and pop business and less like a community, hopefully all pulling in the same direction.

Joe Gottlieb: 28:20

Interesting. Well, let's zoom out a moment and let's look at the industry at large, higher education. There are a lot of headwinds being encountered by higher ed these days, including perceived value relative to cost. So how are you at MIAD dealing with that challenge?

Jeffrey Morin: 28:38

Well, we're teeing up a lot of work for this coming academic year, and I want to take a little bit of a step back from it. Everything that I've achieved in my life personally has come from my education. It has yielded a life far beyond my expectations as a high school senior. So I definitely believe in the transformative nature of an education. We do have to, as you mentioned, spend more time messaging and communicating about the value of higher ed because we're dealing with a much more skeptical population today. We're doing some of that work and you might think that we're being imprudent in doing the work this way. We've been successful in securing a Title III grant from the Department of Education so that this summer we're building out the Student Success Center and an Academic Success Center. The Department of Education still exists. The Title III grant still exists. So we are continuing to work in that direction. If that funding goes away, we'll figure out something else. But one thing that the Student Success Center will do is bring in an expert on experiential learning, a person that's more of a business-to-business expert who will look into our community for these experiential learning experiences like internships, like sponsored projects that a manufacturer or, you know, some industry might bring to our campus to challenge our students. We're continuing to invest in the value proposition of higher ed and clarifying it through professional experiences for our students. And I'm so excited about the students that we serve at MIAD. It's not typical. It's not what you would expect. 30% of our students have documented disabilities. So we have to invest in serving a particular population. 37% of our students are Pell eligible. So they're coming from some financial constraints, maybe not typical at a lot of private colleges. 35% of our students are BIPOC. So they're coming from traditionally underrepresented student populations in higher ed. If you look at higher ed as a place to serve, The student population that we serve is immensely rewarding. We believe in the transformative nature of what we do.

Joe Gottlieb: 31:32

Well, and that's most important. And particularly when you can leverage these approaches to produce the solvency that you have, and I expect you will continue to do. So now I'm curious to hear you talk, Jeff, about, we talked about sleep, creep, and reap. And in the fact that you've used it at least in two places. But how has your leadership approach evolved since you joined MIAD 10 years ago?

Jeffrey Morin: 31:59

I'm no different than most college presidents out there. I am impatient. I want, you know, quick or immediate results and seismic change. So I can even find it a little bit difficult to use this patient approach of sleep, creep, reap. Personally, the good news is that I've got 100 plus things on my list that I want to accomplish with the college. So if I hit a roadblock or a particular issue that has a lot of friction to it, I can put that aside, maybe come back to it later or not at all, because there are plenty of other directions that we can go in. I've used this approach in my professional practice as an artist as well. I always want to be teeing up something new, one of those sleep moments, especially while the reap moment is happening. Some great boon, some great, in the case of an artist, a major exhibition, there's nothing more intimidating than having a major exhibition because you've completed all of your work. And it's hard to start on another body of work. So thinking about it as an administrator, as a president, I've always got something in that sleep or seed or germinating moment. There's always something that's beginning to make progress or creep or flourish. And there are always accomplishments to celebrate on behalf of the community. So by keeping a cycle and overlapping those three types of of institutional change in a continuing cycle, keeps me engaged, keeps me excited for the institution and keeps setting a goal out there for the future.

Joe Gottlieb: 34:01

Nice. It's as if you're managing a portfolio of activities and you're quite mindful of the stages that they're in and you're investing in the long haul, by timing your efforts to invest in those timing layers. Makes a lot of sense. Just like gardening requires you to do, perennial gardening, as you point out.

Jeffrey Morin: 34:31

There are still lessons to learn. When I first got here and saw that there wasn't a lot of technology on campus. I could understand it. It's financial investment. It's a heavy lift. When blinds are a heavy lift, a new computer lab or an emerging technology lab is an unfathomable lift. So I started doing work in that direction. And I could not figure out why there was very little support on campus. Our students were having to outsource 3D printing. It was expensive for them. They weren't having that educational experience. And finally, a faculty member was honest with me. If you do this, you're gonna take funding from my budget to make this happen. That's why there's no support. My response was, okay, we'll do it through philanthropy. And we found a small grant to put in some technology, create the germination for an emerging technology center. We kept finding more funders. We had repeat or multi-year funders. Now we have a thriving emerging technology center that has a grant program for students called the Independent Inquiry Grant Program so that they can continue to research about technology and bring that back to the campus so that we can continue to to evolve with the technology that's of interest to them.

Joe Gottlieb: 36:00

I love it. Since you mentioned technology, we can't have a podcast conversation without touching on AI. So what do you see as the potential, what's the art of the possible for a MIAD in this new era of AI?

Jeffrey Morin: 36:17

First, addressing the fear. And there is definitely fear on campus amongst our faculty and students in particular areas of creativity where they see AI stepping in and doing some of the work that they've done or they're dedicated to. This is not new. And my example is not new. I've heard other people use it. The invention of movable type in the printing press in Europe in the 1400s dramatically changed the nature of what a book is. You know, pre-movable type, it took 300 sheep to make the vellum for one copy of the average Bible. That's $30,000 to $75,000 worth of vellum in today's price for one copy of one book. It took a year to finish that book and anywhere between two and 50 people working in a scriptorium to finish that book. Movable type has dramatically changed the world as we know it. It's increased literacy. It's created the concept of knowledge is power and everyone has the power. It's dramatically lowered the cost of that, accessing that knowledge. And there are certain jobs that went away, but the book still exists. The printed word still exists or the typographic word on a screen if it's not the printed word. So I have confidence that there is an aspect of what we do that will still exist as AI begins to influence what we do. And we'll use that independent inquiry grant through our innovation center to have students explore possibilities. They'll create a body of knowledge for the campus. We'll provide training and investigative workshops through our emerging technology center. so that we can figure out what influence AI will have on what we do and how we need to evolve. We won't cease to exist. We will evolve.

Joe Gottlieb: 38:27

Yes, I think that's the watchword to be sure. All right, let's bring this to a close. What three takeaways can we offer our listeners on the topic of patient gardening for rapid enrollment growth?

Jeffrey Morin: 38:41

Starvation thinking limits the institution's ability to foresee the future and plan ambitiously. We are planting and tending a garden to feed our community's creative hunger. If not, creativity and intellectual atrophy occurs. So that's takeaway one. We need to take stock of existing resources and consider the power of every single dollar. And I would suggest building your board around your needs, your board of trustees. If you can't replace the carpeting, clean it. If you can't afford to clean the carpeting, get someone on your board with a carpet cleaning business who wants to invest in your success. We've literally done that with architectural services because we've been building out so much of our campus over the last five or six years. We have a very generous Trustee Emeritus on our board, providing a healthy discount rate for our architectural needs because he believes in what we do and they do amazing work. The third takeaway is leverage every dollar to tend to the entire campus, to tend to your entire garden. Prospective students on their first campus visit will see the deferred maintenance that you may have become blind to. For every four-year institution, this is what prospective students say. 91% of prospective students indicate that the tour of campus is very or extremely important. So how we look matters when prospective students discover who we are.

Joe Gottlieb: 40:25

Great summary, Jeff. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been my pleasure to be here. And thanks to our listeners for joining us as well. I hope you have a great day and we'll look forward to hosting you again in the next episode of TRANSFORMED.

Joe Gottlieb: 40:42

Hey, listeners of TRANSFORMED. I hope you enjoyed that episode. And whether you did or not, I hope that made you stop and think about the role that you were playing in your organization's ability to change in the digital era. And if it made you stop and think, perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts, suggestions, alternative perspectives, or even criticisms related to this or any other episode, I would love to hear from you. So send me an email at info@higher.digital or joe@higher.digital. And if you have friends or colleagues that you think might enjoy it, please share our podcast with them. As you and they can easily find, TRANSFORMED is available wherever you get your podcasts.