Mark Ostach - If You Really Knew Me...

Every now and then, a fresh and enlivening voice rises above the din of our daily routine.  Mark Ostach is just such a voice.  He joins us for an episode of TBC to shepherd along reliable methodologies to help us find our place and some peace in our fast-moving technology-laden world.

Click HERE for Mark's website

Click HERE for Mark's LinkedIn profile

Click HERE to purchase Mark's Gratitude Journal

Click HERE to download Mark's book "If You Really Knew Me..."

Click HERE to purchase Mark's book "Courage to Connect"

Click HERE to enjoy Mark's podcast

Click HERE to get Mark's newsletter

Other related TBC episodes:

• Sara and John - Gratitude in the Workplace
• Rick and Amy Simmons - Liminal Space

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Transcript

0:00:05 - John
The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. 

John
Well, happy holidays to everybody out there in the Bosshole Transformation Nation. We are in the holiday season, but I'm always in the holiday season because I get to do this work with Sara Best. I'm John Broer, your co-host, and, of course, Sara. Welcome, it's good to see you. How are you? 

0:00:46 - Sara
I'm good, John, You're so great and it is. Every day is a holiday, a happy one. It's always a pleasure to have these great episodes with you. 

0:00:53 - John
Yeah, and today's episode is one of our subject matter expert episodes. Sara, you are bringing this gentleman into the Bosshole Transformation Nation and our discussions around helping people stay out of the Bosshole Zone, so I'm so excited to hear more from this very special individual. I'm going to turn it right over to you and we can kick it off. 

0:01:14 - Sara
Absolutely Wow. I think that the information we're going to listen to today is relevant and very timely for all of us, because we just live in a very uncertain kind of crazy world right now. This guy's kind of become one of my favorite people to follow. When his e-blaster email comes into my inbox, as it does on occasion, with new ideas and new information, I stop what I'm doing and I read it, because I know there's going to be a lesson or an activity or an action that will call me, settle me, help me get focused on what I believe is important. Before we get into all the stuff about him, let me just introduce you to Mark Ostach. Mark, welcome to the podcast. 

0:01:57 - Mark Ostach
Sara, thanks so much for having me. It's awesome to be here and I'm excited to keep people in the. John, what did you say? The Bosshole Zone? 

0:02:04 - John
Out of the Bosshole Zone. 

0:02:05 - Mark Ostach
There you go. I'll try my best. I'll try my best. 

0:02:10 - Sara
Yeah Well, mark, I want to share with our audience. I had the privilege of listening to you provide a keynote and you are one of the smoothest, most charismatic, easy to listen to keynotes I've ever heard. This was a couple of years back at a leadership summit, and this is really one of your main platforms is to provide keynote speeches. You've done TED Talks. You've written two books. We'll talk about both of them today. One just released most recently it's one that I've been sharing with my clients, but we'll get into that. You're a frequently featured speaker on USA Today, and the topic, the subject matter that you talk about is very specialized. I would like to toss it to you, mark, to tell us a little bit about how you arrived as an expert in digital detox, among other things, and just tell us a little bit about your journey and what you share today. 

0:03:01 - Mark Ostach
Yeah, Sara, I appreciate you tearing that up. So the space that I'm in and I always my ears get red when I hear the word expert because I feel like we are all our lifelong learners but in the space of having a lot of experience in digital wellness and mental health, the two spaces that I spend most of my day and life into, I found myself as a recent college graduate with a degree in psychology, and I was lost, like many other 22 year olds are when they graduate, and I did what you do when you're lost you go back to school, and I went back to school from a sash therapy school because I was really interested in workplace wellness as it pertains to ergonomics and chair massage and those sorts of things, and had a vision for a business that I was going to launch in the corporate arena providing chair massages. And that vision collapsed when a good friend of mine started a technology company who I was living with after college. So he hired me. Actually, I worked for him for free for about eight months until we could go from two people to three people on payroll, which was fun, and then, from there, for the next 10 years, I spent in the technology arena really becoming aware of the psychology of technology. So it was just truly by both passion and experience that those worlds collided. 

And while I was on the HR side so I was in charge of higher I was the non-engineer right. Everyone else had these technical degrees. I was a liberal arts guy interested in poetry and counseling, which fit me great. When we were hiring we hired 40 people within five years and it was an awesome experience. But in that experience I continued just to really realize how what you do and view online shapes your thoughts, your moods, your mindset and just your relationships. And that kind of focus became a bit of an obsession and I found myself bootstrapping a technology company that allowed you to better manage your time on the internet. This was 12 years ago and our mission was to say if we can show users and people how their mood is impacted by the sites they go to, then they'll be more aware of the sites that make them sad, mad, frustrated, et cetera. 

0:05:16 - Sara
Yes. 

0:05:17 - Mark Ostach
So that was an awesome, awesome experience. And that was literally 12 years ago before any of the social media giants tracked mood publicly. That's where my central focus was. So just fast forward five years after that technology company launched. It was one of those freemium kind of things you don't have to pay to play. And I met my wife. We were engaged. She said this company you're spending a ton of time and money into is not generating any revenue. You should advocate for the things that you're passionate about, not just share technology solutions. And that kind of was a pivot in my journey on deciding to go into speaking and writing as opposed to building technology products. And fast forward to today, two books later, two kids later, two dogs later. It's been quite a journey, but it's been an awesome one. 

0:06:09 - Sara
I'm just going to breathe that in for a minute. Such an angle, such a niche angle that has incredible impact and maybe unconscious to many, many people. Tell us about the ways that you found success in I don't want to say transforming or reforming people, but how have you been able to help people see and connect to the challenge and the mood disorder and the things that can happen from our interface with technology? 

0:06:38 - Mark Ostach
Yeah, great, great question, Sara. I've got a 92-year-old mentor who always tells me that simple things unite and complex things divide. Very simple, right. So I feel like what I've been able to do is just share some simple things that we need to be mindful of, and an example of that is looking at our digital calories the same way we look at our physical calories. So we're all hyper aware of. You get things like biohacking and people are like measuring out the amount of grams or macros they eat or consume, but what does that look like as it pertains to your digital life? So that simple metaphor has been used for a decade for me, just kind of inviting people into the dialogue. So that's a, for instance. 

I think another thing that I've realized is that stories connect. So Sara mentioned the newsletter. I send a story out a month. It's been really cool to be able to just share stories about not so much traditional digital detox information and things like that. I'm actually more interested in making sure the endangered human connection element doesn't get lost in the transactional nature of our days, which I think going back to like becoming a bosshole, which we're trying to avoid. It's really a byproduct of burnout and a lack of feeling connected to the things that bring you joy and peace in your life. 

And you can do nothing but swim like a duck underneath all your emails and meetings and your to-dos, and that pressure builds up and next thing you know you're quacking at somebody or biting them. So a lot of it's just helping to raise awareness on how your internet behaviors and how your digital calories just impact your day. 

0:08:32 - John
Mark, may I ask you make me think of you, make you as a night, okay, so you have a 92 year old mentor. That's remarkable and what a blessing to have somebody like that in your life. And also that's somebody who was around and working well, well, well before the advent of the technology we know today. Okay, I mean, there have been technological advances ever since you know that person was working. But I've got to imagine, relative to managers and supervisors, that on the one hand, the technology presents itself as a great convenience, but it also can make us a bit lazy around not investing that time in one another. In other words, it's very easy to just shoot out a text, an email, slack response of some sort, when really it is better served by picking up the phone and I mean, is that really where you're? You're seeing some of this as well. 

0:09:30 - Mark Ostach
Yeah, and just kind of Commenting on my mentor, who's 92, started off his career as a physician where he was making $5. 

Patient visits like, house calls like the black bag, you know, going to your patients house for five bucks. So literally 90 facts. Machines didn't even exist. But kind of laddering that back to to your question, john, I think there's almost been, and I feel it sometimes too, like there's been a fear just to pick up the phone and call somebody. You feel like you're gonna disrupt them, your own Focus on. Well, that's gonna take 20 minutes as opposed to the two minutes that I could just dump another to do in their inbox as opposed to Truly calling them right. 

So there's been recent research that shows like communication preferences across Demographics and psychographics, and one of the interesting things that came out of that communication research for me that I that I took away, was how much people prefer texting across like Millennials, gen Z's, you know, boomers. 

That seems a little counter productive to me, but in the same breath I think one of the reasons why is because there's not enough time in the day to make those phone calls, or at least that's the story that we're subscribing to. I would push back and say it's the opposite. You can get a heck of a lot more done with a phone call. You just might need to be bold and call people before 8 am when they're actually available. So when you and when you call them before 8 am, don't just go right to the jugular of what it is you want. Check in, acknowledge the beauty of the sunrise that you're looking at in your commute or out your office window. Try to find a common ground that's rooted in some of the beauty of which is the new day in front of you, and then get into what it is that you're looking to get or take away from that, that communication point. 

0:11:26 - Sara
That's a good reminder To not be a business but to foster that connection and savor the things that we're grateful for as we engage, because the relationships we have with clients and colleagues and vendor partners and others. 

They're really blessings if you look at that way. They truly are. Well, this might be a good time to highlight to you have a resource that I've started sharing with all my clients, which is a gratitude journal. It's a tiny little little book of wonder that you created. It's a 14-day journey and and not to shift gears radically away from what we were talking about, but let's pause for a moment. Yeah, let's do it idea of gratitude, tell us about the inspiration for this little journal. 

0:12:09 - Mark Ostach
Yes. 

So, like many other struggling writers, I had a desire to write a book and I had a couple manuscripts that were starting and stopping. 

So then you know, god had kind of given me a vision for this little incremental step towards Authorship, which is this little gratitude notebook, Sara, that you're referencing and I know those that are listening can't quite see it. 

But picture your iPhone, because it's about the size of an iPhone, right. That was by design, and the idea was can you Pick up kind of a habit of gratitude before you pick up your phone? So the hope is that it's a two-week little challenge. There's a quota one side and then there's a page for you to write what you're worried about and then what you're grateful for. And the idea is is that if you can do that for two weeks you might shift some of that doom scrolling that happens first thing out of bad before you've even peed or brush your teeth and gotten into a little bit more of a of a heart of thanks and praise, which Sara and I know and, john, I don't know you as well as I know Sara, but like it is a we need to be like, almost like diligent warriors, and how we are cultivating Gratitude with all of the heaviness of the world. 

0:13:17 - John
Amen, that is so true. 

0:13:19 - Mark Ostach
Yes. 

0:13:19 - Sara
Yes, yeah, and the people can. They can purchase this for themselves, for their teams. We'll put a link in our show notes. Awesome that people can go right to your website. They're deeply inexpensive for the value they provide. So I encourage yeah, and it's funny because, how you described, you know how this little notebook came to be, as is a great segue into the two things that I wanted to make sure we talked about. One is in 2020. You wrote a book that was designed to help people build courage and connection online. 

Yes to really become comfortable and confident and Powerful in their connection with people. And how timely was that? Because we were in the midst of the lockdown. Tell us a little bit about that book and then we'll jump forward and talk about your latest book, which again centers on connection and culture of connection and belonging. There's a, there's an incredible theme here, so tell us about. Yeah, thank you, sir, you know. 

0:14:17 - Mark Ostach
I. It is all God's timing, and what you don't read between the pages that are on the back of the book of courage to connect, which came out in July of 2020, was a very scared child, and that scared child was me, and the background behind that was I had been building the speaking business on the side through a side hustle, using my vacation days and kind of maneuvering my, my schedule to a point where it reached a threshold where I had to Maintain my integrity at my current employer and say, hey, listen, this is what I want to do full-time. Can we talk about a succession plan over the next six months? They said absolutely, you've outgrown this role. We see your future. Keep going. Well, that was a great kind of you know come to Jesus moment for me and confessing what it was I wanted to do. However, that six-month runway turned into two weeks when we lost our biggest client. 

The next week oh, wow, I found myself in November of 2019 2019 with this, you know, kind of kicking the pants to get out into, you know, this soul practitioner space To provide an income for my family. And in that same week, my, my father-in-law, had passed and my wife said listen, we've got about 45 days of money in the bank. So if you're gonna do this, you have to do this. Yesterday and her, her, she said I believe in you, but go. 

So I went and I went hard and, you know, I got some bookings and all these sorts of things and then, as we all know, the story goes the pandemic hits, all the events Cancel and I found myself like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do with my life? And in that space I got quiet and I fought off a lot of the Anxieties and I was like, why need to finish this dang book? And I have the time. So I finished the book with help of a friend and Got the book out. While I was finishing the book, this thing called zoom, you know, became mainstream and then, from that point forward to today, I've done nearly 200 zoom events and it's been a season of harvest. So yeah, that's a little bit of behind the scenes, of of how some of those things get birthed. 

0:16:27 - John
And I don't want to step over a theme that I'm picking up on, and that is the wisdom of your wife. 

0:16:35 - Mark Ostach
You know what. This is a really good theme and I'll use this as an actual and honest transition to share a story from a book, from the new book. If you really knew me, Sara, I know you mentioned maybe sharing a story and this is a good timing. But yeah, I have. You know, truthfully, there's been a season of resistance and my wife has had clarity and a vision that she's been given, and I've kind of been like those 1980 TVs where you kind of got to fix the bunny ears to see if my vision is her vision and our covenant is on the right path. And there's a story in the book called Honey in the Rock. We hear the terms rock, bottom rock in a hard place, but we don't really hear the terms honey in the rock. So I'm going to try to make this a two and a half minute story, but it speaks to the work that I'm doing through what's called the bell method, and the bell method stands for belonging, empathy, listening and love. 

So I went from courage to connect teaching people courage and how to connect online and offline to taking all these 200 events and observations through all these organizations to say, okay, well, how do people maintain connection in a hybrid world? And you know, I just kind of got this vision for the bell method teaching, belonging, empathy, listening and love. So in the new book each story has a reflection kind of corner that says, after this story, which element of the bell method stands out to you. So that's how it works. So back to Honey in the Rock. We're going to renovate our house, redo a kitchen. I'm all excited, living in a little three bedroom ranch. Life is good, neighbors are great. 

And we find ourselves at Lowe's on a typical date night and we're about to sign for new appliances and new cabinets and we end up pausing and realizing that we just want to have a good friend who does design work to come over and double check our plans. That night we go home, my wife we're emailing late at night. She says, hey, look at this house for Salon Zillow. I'm thinking, what are you talking about? This is our forever home. And lo and behold, she finds us. I say, well gosh, that house sure does have everything we need. It's closer to the kids school, let's check it out. And that began a period of do we love it or list it. 

Well, 10 houses later, I am like in the agony of like you know what? Let's not move, let's go back to the kitchen remodel. And she is like praying steadily, fasting for like clarity on. Is this house for you know, should we move? So I say to her listen, let's, let's be done, let's pause. The market's getting all funky. She said, okay, but one more house. So we look at this, one more house. It's on a dirt road, on a lake, two things we never even fathomed. And we found ourselves really with the peace of God. In this house, kids were actually for the first time feeling the presence of like okay, this could be my room. We have an eight and five year old. So looking at houses with little kids is one of the most challenging things that you'll ever do. 

So long, long story short, we find ourselves putting an offer on this house. We put an offer on it highest and best. The next day we find out that we were the runners up. So we're feeling kind of the ups and downs of the house, hunting my wife, who's very, you know, a rule follower. She decides to write a letter to the homeowners, writes a letter to the homeowners, drops it off. The next day, gets a text from the homeowners saying your letter moved us to tears. We felt the spirit of God in your words, praying that you find the right house. If it's not this one, you know, hopefully one day our pass will cross. If not, see in heaven and it was this bold, like you know communication back. So that gave my wife hope. That gave me a little bit of like. Maybe this is a bit of a sacred experience we're about to embark on. 

Two months go by. The house sells. My wife is like so focused on praying circles around this house she's literally dropping the kids off and walking laps in the neighborhood as if we already live there. I'm like eating sugary M&Ms with the kids watching Sonic 2 at the theaters and she's like no sugar. I need to have clarity right. 

So the house sells and we're driving in the car on this one day and we're like kind of, you know it's three days after the house sells and we have this running joke for the last two months hey, did Amy call you? Amy's the homeowner. Yeah, amy never calls and as we're driving, you know, days after the house sells, we get a text from Amy and it says you're never going to believe this, but the people that bought our house came to move in. They purchased it over Zoom right 2022. They never walked the house. They came to move in with their cars in the keys. They literally own it and they said this house is in the right house for us. We're going to put it back on the market. So Amy says I remember the card you wrote us. You should get in touch with their realtors. They didn't put it back on the market, they sold it to us. 

A whole series of things happen, kind of that. I'll spare the details. You can read the story in the book. But it was this kind of divine calling of like this sacred house that is for us didn't kind of come out the way that I had envisioned it in my mind. I'm sitting in the home now we're four months in, but you know the bell method. My wife and I had different elements right, like she was listening. She was totally listening. She was feeling that you know God's whisper, she was acting on that and I wasn't right. So here we are in the home four months later and still a whole bunch of growth. I think that when you find yourself in situations of change and new experiences, sometimes the growth can be like it can almost be so intimidating or debilitating that you get lost in the wilderness. So yeah, anyways, that's a snippet from the book. I thought that that was a story that came to mind today Sara and John. 

0:22:30 - John
I love that story. That is one of those stories to mark where and it's not lost on you or your wife where you have to pause and reflect on his hand, not where we expect it or in our timing, but that's a hard thing to do in today's world. I mean the world itself wants to push us through and rush us through so many things technology to distract us. But having that conviction and the capacity to just be patient and listen to that still small voice, that's just a great story. What a blessing. That's awesome. 

0:23:06 - Mark Ostach
Thanks, Sean. 

0:23:07 - Sara
And I love that you referenced the Bell method and even explained it for our listeners. I think, for supervisors, managers, leaders and we can be assured that they are more so than others probably feeling the effects of burnout, feeling the burden of the continued uncertainty that we face financially globally. We were all suffering to some degree by all this, and some much more than others. But we would be remiss if we didn't just acknowledge hey, managers have a heavy load, managing up, managing down. 

0:23:45 - John
Sara, can I dovetail on that as long? I mean, that's the whole point of this podcast. We just want to encourage managers and supervisors don't be the origin of the misery and the suffering. And you may not realize that Just a couple of weeks ago, mark, we had an episode on gratitude in the workplace and I'm going to remind our listeners. Go into the show notes. You will see Mark's resources, including the gratitude journal, but I'll also cross-reference that episode that we did a few weeks back about gratitude in the workplace. That's transformational work and, to your point, Sara, in addition to developing people, that's hard. 

0:24:26 - Sara
Well, and there are a couple of things that come to mind. Mark, you are an expert in emotional intelligence. You may not use that language or that speak, but what you promote and what you teach and what you share, and how you live, too, are things that help people develop a mindfulness, a centeredness, a connection, not only a social connection, but an internal and maybe, in many cases, a spiritual connection, and it's about meeting basic human need, and I love that you, in the very beginning of our conversation today, talked about simple yes, simple is the solution, simple is the way. So how about for managers and supervisors and leaders and others that have influence over people to just remember belonging, empathy, listening and love are pretty much all you have to focus on. 

Well, not all, but mostly what you have to focus on when it comes to getting the best out of your team and creating the best for your team, but it also means that you have to find that yourself. 

0:25:26 - Mark Ostach
Yes, and I'll share kind of two references. One, an additional thing that managers and leaders can do that will remove some of the burden of wondering how are my people, who's kind of quietly withdrawing in this quiet quitting kind of movement and who is disengaged and these sorts of things, and as you maintain, as you kind of get yourself as a leader locked into that atmosphere, becomes very fear strickened. So there are two questions that you can ask your people that you manage weekly. That will save you a whole bunch of mental space and they're super simple. The first one is you ready for this? 

0:26:04 - Sara
Yeah. 

0:26:05 - Mark Ostach
What are you working on? And the second one is how can I help? Wow, what are you working on and how can I help? That can be the agenda of your 15 minute or 30 minute one on one and on the rare instances when they go into detail on how you can help them, you now have meaning in your managerial or leadership responsibilities. You don't have to manufacture new programs or systems or processes for them to do their jobs better. Just ask them what are they're working on and how can you help and most times you won't need your help, which will create a little bit more space in that one-on-one to get into that relational side of the relationship that needs to be fostered and nurtured. That is going to make that employee or that person that much more safe and comfortable and transparent with you when the rubber hits the road on things like growth or exit. 

0:27:08 - Sara
I hear the ping. The ping happens when something is spoken or shared and it's like yeah, that. And for managers and leaders who have hesitation or concern or think I don't have time for that, we need results. This is the avenue and the medium and the access to those results. Would you agree? 

0:27:31 - Mark Ostach
Yeah, yes, I do, and I think, as leaders, when you're feeling overwhelmed or disconnected, the simplicity almost seems too good to be true. And I do think in the hybrid or even remote workplace, and I'm noticing this and it's totally the level of discomfort for me, and I'm even just consulting with organizations I'm not internal to any one organization, but when you remove some of the bloat of the day, of the workday, with extra meetings and long lunches and coffees all of which I love, by the way- I thoroughly enjoy, but when you remove those things, you're starting to find more time in your day. 

Let your mind wonder on your significance in your role and your responsibilities that have shifted because you now have more space. Either you have more space or you're even doubled up on the video meetings and your days are even busier. It's one of the other, that's right. So the part is what I'm driving at is that, like you need to kind of reinvent your rhythms in this new, new way of working, and part of that requires exercise and movement and things that are gonna bring you more, more of that like energy that you can give the others that you maybe didn't have the privilege of with your forty five minute commute or your, you know, client luncheons that always had to be in person at the one restaurant that took, you know, two hours to get your food right that's right so I don't know if you, if you guys, can comment on that or how that relates to you both specifically. 

0:29:09 - Sara
I think what you're talking about, mark, is creating margin, and I know that's one of the at the end of your book. You actually have prayers that you know you provide on behalf of the readers, over the readers, if you will and one is for greater margin, margin to have to do more of the things you love and the things that fill you up. So I think that's an inside out job to most. Of what we're talking about here starts with awareness and connection to what. What is what we're, what's driving us from the inside. John, what are your thoughts? 

0:29:44 - John
Well, your question mark made me think of a number of conversations I've had, I think we've had over the last couple of years, where Some organizations are saying, well, you know what, we're gonna have people coming back to the workplace and in summer saying we're gonna mandate that. And when people start to evaluate and really look at the cost of commutes, giving up or sacrificing time with family, I think they realize that that actually took away. I mean, this was not life affirming, it was not. I mean I think they physically feel that it was taking something away. It's like taking something from my soul, in my physical health, my mental health. 

I think that's why we're getting a lot of people saying I just don't want that anymore. There is something more. And but more doesn't mean filling it with more technology. It doesn't mean Right jamming more stuff into that 45 minutes or an hour that you have in the morning. I I mean I let's not step over the fact that, mark, you have a deep and strong faith, as do Sara and myself. And when I think there are people out there thinking there's got to be more, there's something else to. You know, we talk about helping people find meaning and fulfillment in their work. I think there's a hunger, and that hunger is related to something. 

0:31:03 - Mark Ostach
So when people say I think there's something more out there, the answer is yes, there absolutely is right now I will give a healthy confession like I am in a season of margin and I'm having to learn how to have it. I mean like there's a lot of anxieties and like habits and routines that are like whoa, like do I need to do this? And part of it's because we moved out into the sticks a little bit, I have a little bit more time on my hands, but then that goes back to like all right, well, you know, 20 years into my career, you know I've had this mentor for 15 years who's been just a brilliant person in my life. It's like how am I starting to give more of my time? Right, and I think a lot of people that find themselves whether you're in the middle of your career, whether you're sunsetting or taking an early retirement or down shifting like you have time on your hands and without intentionality behind that time, it can drive you nuts. That's right. 

0:32:04 - Sara
It's the other end of the spectrum which is equally stressful and challenging. But you know, just even thinking about your book, the reflections and opportunity to digest the content personally after each story, I think it would be a great exercise for anybody who's finding themselves. You know we often refer to it as liminal space, which was another podcast episode we did a while back with Rick and Amy Simmons. I first heard about liminal space from Father Richard Roar, who is just an amazing contemplative kind of priest. But it's this idea of you know we're in between like what we knew before doesn't exist anymore and what is coming to be is not fully known. 

But, how can we settle in, you know, find margin, capitalize on the margin and explore the opportunity that this in between space provides for us. And it does provide incredible opportunity. But I think the message that you're sharing today, mark, is, you know like it starts with connection. It starts with connection to you and connection to others, yes, and it does give you the opportunity to see all the other stuff gets figured out. It does get figured out. 

0:33:19 - John
Well, mark, what's next on the horizon for you, right around the corner, that you're excited about? 

0:33:26 - Mark Ostach
You know, I had a chance to do a keynote last month with a kind of a co-creator. He's a piano player and I've been. You know, I'm a storyteller and I kind of have been getting sick of my own PowerPoints, right, you know the typical way. So I synced up with him and we basically have come up with a new kind of style of presenting. It's more on entertainment and we go through the Bell method and we teach managers and leaders what the bell method sounds like with music, what the method could be like with stories. So it's just kind of this little like back and forth. It's a little cooler than who was it? Dave Letterman and Paul kind of the you know the back and forth. 

0:34:10 - John
Well, Schaefer, that's right. Yeah, Schaefer. 

0:34:13 - Mark Ostach
But like, for instance, you know, when we look at the owl method for listening, right, you know, I say Bob, Bob's a piano player named Bob. What does listening sound like, you know? And he starts playing. You know, hello from a Dell, right. He starts playing from a. 

0:34:27 - Sara
Dell. 

0:34:28 - Mark Ostach
And then I'm like, bob, you know, all right, that's good. But, like you know, when you show up on your Zoom session and it's 12.01 and there's eight people on the invite and you're the only one there, you know like, and you're wondering is this meeting gonna happen? And the next thing, you know, you've had 15 meetings and it's, you know, 4.30 and you've missed lunch. You know what does that sound like? And he plays, you know, comfortably, numb from Pink Floyd, right Cause it's just the soul like so. And then I say, bob, that's great, that I'm glad, that's what you know listening sounds like. Let me share with you what it looks like. So I'm excited now that we have one kind of public rep under our belt on that. You know, keynote experience. I want to do more of those. I want to go on tour with Bob and I and bring music and storytelling to all of the leaders and organizations looking to figure out how that we can create a culture of connection and belonging in the future of work. So that's what I'm excited about. 

0:35:23 - Sara
Well, I hope this platform can connect you to certainly some of our listeners and their organizations, for whom their managers, supervisors and leaders would greatly benefit from having you present and share in this unique, cool way. 

0:35:40 - Mark Ostach
Yeah, I'll share a link you guys can put in the show notes so people can see what it looks like. But yeah, that's what I'm excited about. 

0:35:47 - John
Please do. I think that'd be great. 

0:35:49 - Sara
Mark, I, just on behalf of John and I both, and all of our listeners, we're grateful for. You know the synergy that was created by both your passion, your interest and fate to bring forward the message, and really it's not just what you say and what you write about I mean, those things are amazing and I want our listeners to tap into that but it's really who you are too. I just want to say thank you for having the courage to be vulnerable and honest and somebody that people can absolutely listen to and relate to Thank you, Sara. 

0:36:22 - Mark Ostach
I really appreciate that. John, I appreciate you guys having me on. I also want to give the listeners a gift the new book. If you Really Knew Me the Secret to Creating a Culture of Connection and Belonging, I'll put a, I'll send you a link for people to download an ebook version of that book. 

0:36:37 - Sara
Oh, thank you yeah absolutely, and I hope they know what a gift it is. As I mentioned, I've been sharing this with my clients. I've given all of my adult children this book. My mom, I've been enjoying this book daily, so thank you, mark. 

0:36:50 - Mark Ostach
That's generous. Thank you, Sara. Thank you, John, I appreciate it. 

0:36:54 - John
Well, it's been great having you here and everybody. Check out the show notes and we will see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles.com. Once again, mystory@thebossholechronicles.com, We'll see you again soon.