Karen and John - Is it a Bosshole® or a Tormentor?

We welcome back the remarkable Karen Shulman to The Bosshole® Chronicles studio to walk us through the role that Tormentors play in our lives.  This is a refreshing way to reframe our view of those managers who otherwise could make us crazy!  Who knew there was a distinction between a Bosshole® and a Tormentor!

Related episodes:

Kim Scott - The Principles of Radical Candor - Part 1
Kim Scott - The Principles of Radical Candor - Part 2
Marcel Schwantes - Love in Action

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Transcript

John: 0:10

I'd like to welcome all of our good friends out there in the Bosshole Transformation Nation to this week's episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. This is your host, John Broer actually your co-host today, because joining me is a favorite of our listeners. Her name is Karen Shulman. You know Karen from some of the other great episodes where she has shared her insight and intellect and experiences, and today she is going to do it again. We are going to be talking about the tormentors, and this is just another way of looking at the Bosshole world, if you will, but with a different angle and hopefully a very helpful angle. If you are dealing with a difficult manager and remember we always like to say nobody is born to be a Bosshole and at the same time, how do we take the most out of these difficult experiences and let them work in our favor? How do we grow from our Bosshole experiences? Well, we're going to be talking about that today. So buckle up and let's get ready for another great conversation with Karen Shulman.

John: 1:27

The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures a talent optimization firm, helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Well, karen, good to see you. How are you? I'm good.

Karen: 1:54

John, it's great to see you.

John: 1:56

It's always nice to have you back on the program and I know that our listeners love to hear your perspective. I know that every time we talk, not just during an episode but also just in the regular work day, I'm always the better for your insight, your wisdom, and I'm really, really excited for our listeners to hear this particular topic. So let me set the stage really quick. A few weeks ago, Karen and I were talking, and you know, in the three years, almost three years, oh my gosh, it's going to be this month three years that we've been doing the Bosshole Chronicles. You know, bosshole is our special word that we trademarked to talk about managers that just don't get it. You know, and they're all kinds of different, I would say, synonyms for Bossholes. But one came up during our conversation and I don't know if you used it or I used it, but the word "tormentor and wouldn't you agree that? I mean tormentor is probably a really good synonym for a bad boss or a Bosshole. Would you agree with that?

Karen: 2:56

Oh for sure, yes, we had some experience with some tormentors in the workplace in my lifetime.

John: 3:03

Well, and that's what sparked this whole other conversation, and I said, Karen, this has got to be a separate episode. We've got to do this. So for everybody listening out there, you are about to again get a glimpse into the just the wisdom and genius of Karen Shulman that we get to experience every day at real good ventures. But it's all around the word tormentor. So, Karen, just take us back, give us some context, paint that, you know, that higher-level picture around tormentor, if you don't mind.

Karen: 3:33

Yeah, I, you know, I was asked many years ago to develop a class to help people deal with difficult people. And as I started putting the class together, because of where my brain goes and you know it's nice that you call me wise, there's other people that would call me some different things, but the way that my brain works when I was trying to figure out how to put a class together about, you know, dealing with difficult people, tormentor was certainly one of the words that I came up with. You know thorns in your side, people that well, the acronym PITA, "paint in the, you know, the rear end.

John: 4:17

Okay. We can say we're all adults here. We can say paint in the ass, okay.

Karen: 4:21

Yeah, okay. Well, I wish you would have told me that before we started the podcast.

Karen: 4:25

All right, now look out. But that was that was kind of the gist of it. When I started understanding different ways that people might look at bossholes, tormentors, thorns in their sides, PITAs I started to really think about kind of a series of questions, a series of kind of a process that people go through when they're dealing with those difficult people. And so you know, maybe it makes sense for us, John, to go through some of those questions because the idea is to help us understand that if we stay stuck in really trying to figure out why people are acting like bossholes, tormentors, and we want them so desperately to change, if we stay stuck in that mode, we're going to stay stuck because that's not going to move us anywhere. And as I was working on developing some content around this class or curriculum for dealing with difficult people, that was kind of my mindset. It's like, okay, we can probably figure out, you know what tormentors are like and all that. How do we move through that?

John: 5:40

Okay, fair enough, and just so I understand, this was a workshop you developed. You're going to take me through just some of the questions, but there are several questions. That's part of the process of this workshop. Was it a full day or a half day workshop? Or how did this get facilitated? Just out of curiosity?

Karen: 6:00

Yeah, it was about a half day workshop.

John: 6:02

Okay, yeah, and that's great, because dealing with difficult people, managing conflict, that's a daily occurrence. So to me this sounds like a methodology or a perspective that everybody could use pretty much every day of their work life Actually probably personal life, but specifically their work life if they're dealing with a bosshole or a tormentor. Okay, so you're going to walk me through some of these, right?

Karen: 6:32

Yeah.

Karen: 6:32

We're going to do some of the initial questions and then we will probably wind up in a place where, hopefully, we can start to shift the perspective a little bit. Okay, fair enough, fair enough, I'm ready. So, okay, so, and I'm going to ask you maybe, John, not just from your experience, but obviously being one of the co-hosts on the Bosshole Chronicles, that it makes sense to maybe bring in some other things that you've heard from other folks that have had to deal with Bossholes, tormentors, sure, so okay, first question, define what makes a boss or a coworker a difficult person? And think about it this way - people that set you off, people that yank your chain, they trigger you, they cause you distress, how would you define them? What are some of their characteristics that you've experienced or that you've heard from other people on the Bosshole Chronicles when they dealt with?

John: 7:31

Tormentors, sure. So I can absolutely tell you from my perspective, when somebody wastes my time with activities or tasks that either I don't understand or I don't understand why I'm doing them. If it feels like busy work and I don't understand the why behind the task, that just really pisses me off. Okay, and yeah, we're going to get a little more loose with our language in this episode. I can feel it already. So that thing, really that does. I also know. Now I also have the perspective of hopefully being a little bit more mature.

John: 8:06

But if, but if I go back and understand myself 20 years ago people trying to take control and trying to control me that would be automatic pushback, that would be an attack. I would attack. If I felt somebody was coming at me, I would attack right back at them and I realized, you know, politically in an organization, that might not be a real smart thing to do. So when you make those mistakes, you hopefully learn from them. But yeah, nothing pisses me off more than when somebody wastes my time and I'm doing something that I can't. I don't understand why I'm being asked to do it.

Karen: 8:43

Yeah, and it's really interesting because when, when you talk about taking control of you, somebody just really trying to, you know you can do it my way, this is it. You don't necessarily understand why and the way you describe that, that was definitely a trigger. That was something where, when you're saying like I'm ready to, I'm ready to duke it out, that's definitely a trigger for me. It's when people, I can mirror some of the things that you said, maybe in a little different language, because for me, anytime that I'm being asked to do something nonsensical that I find stupid, the word stupid is a trigger for me.

Karen: 9:22

It just is a trigger for me, because I don't want anybody to ever figure out that I'm stupid, even though I'm stupid every day but the stupid things that trigger me. I've worked for people that are dishonest, that have no integrity whatsoever. I've worked for bullies. Those are people that set me off. And I don't know, can you think of some other things that you've heard, that there may be some common themes from people that have talked about tormentors that they've worked with.

John: 9:52

Well, and I think it gets back to a little bit of that dishonesty. You know the lack of transparency and manipulation. You know manipulating this is where they're creating a very unsafe environment. But they've been manipulated, they've been or they've been shut out somehow they have. The communication has been cut off and the person the tormentor in this case, or boss hole is somebody that is lording over that other person this information. But I'm not going to give it to them. That is unconscionable to me.

John: 10:25

And when I found out, you mentioned dishonesty, I did, I remember I had a manager one time who was withholding information and I found out about it and I absolutely lost my stuff. I mean, like I, to me, I can't understand how you could do that in a professional relationship, but he did it and yeah, yeah, and we hear all kinds of stuff like that. And then there's abuse. There's there's verbal abuse. There is, oh mental abuse. Oh, yeah, verbal abuse, there's mental abuse, and I mean hopefully no physical abuse. But yeah, that kind of stuff, the PITAs, the tormentors, we've heard a lot about that.

Karen: 11:07

Yeah, yeah, and I and I'm, I'm almost afraid to ask this because we've already we've already let out our language slip a little here. But but the another question then is okay, so if we, if we're working with people, we're dealing with people who are tormentors, who are wasting our time taking control of us, they're they're being kind of stupid, dishonest bullies, manipulation, shutting us out, verbal abuse, those types of things. Describe what you want to do with those tormentors in your life and no limits.

John: 11:42

Wow, yeah, no limits. I'm not going to say soften this, but let's, let's be realistic. I'd love to fire them, even though I have no authority to do it. I'd love to be able to to you know, say you're, you're done. I want, I would love, the authority to say you're the person I get to fire, you're done, bye.

Karen: 12:03

Yeah, it's interesting when I've when I've taught this class, I think the number one answer usually is I want them going away. Yeah, make them go away.

John: 12:11

Yes.

Karen: 12:11

Yeah, whether I have the hire, fire authority a lot of people have talked about. I want to yell at them, I want to scream at them. I worked on the ninth story of a building where, lucky for my tormentors, the windows did not open because I might have, you know, been tempted to give them a little push somebody, yeah, for a little little little quick entrance or a quick exit.

John: 12:34

I should say, Okay, let me get back to that. You're right, extricate them, get them out of my, get them out of my face, get them out of my life. Yes, for sure, go ahead.

Karen: 12:45

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and that would be very common, very, very common answer. Think about how those tormentors make you feel. What are the emotions that come forward, how do they, how do they make you feel?

John: 13:00

Oh, I would say um, and I'm thinking specifically about two tormentors in my boss holes in my career, one of whom was one of the I was the basis for, I think, our second episode ever. Um, I just shared that story. I'm not going to use the word frustrated. I was disheartened and I felt defeated and I felt like this person is holding me back, not because, again, I had experienced this person enough to know that there, this wasn't a coaching moment from this person. This was a control and stubbornness that was inhibiting my career and again it, I found it incredibly frustrating.

John: 13:55

This is the part that bothered me the most is it didn't just end at the end of my work day. You know you can't help but harbor that when you go home and you're with your family and your friends. I mean it just, it just is a seething bother, and that part pissed me off, probably more that that, and, quite frankly, that was on me too. I mean I will, I will own that that. It's like I needed to figure out how to deal with this more effectively and not let it sort of seep into dinner conversation or influence my mood when I was at home. Um, I would like to think as I, as I aged and I and I got older, I got more mature about it, wisdom, more self-aware, more self-aware about those things that activated me, but that's the part. That's the part that bothered me the most is that they made me feel less, less than than what I am, what I truly am, if that makes sense, yeah.

Karen: 14:59

Yeah, it does, and I and I think it's also kind of a natural thing when people are dealing with difficult people and it's at work. It doesn't stop at the end of the work day.

John: 15:11

Right.

Karen: 15:12

And it doesn't go home with you because you don't. You keep trying to figure out how to deal with it. How to deal with it, and when you have emotions like frustration, being dishearted, feeling defeated, angry, it's hard to let that stuff go because you don't have a resolution. The only resolution is you got to go back into work the next day and deal with the tormentor again and it doesn't seem to ever let up or get better.

John: 15:38

And we will be right back.

Announcer: 15:44

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John: 16:51

Okay, let's get back to the program.

Karen: 16:55

This is an interesting next question. How did you actually I mean, how did you actually react to your tormentor? What did you do in the workplace with them? Did you lose it or did you find some way to maintain professionalism? What did you do and what have you heard from people on other Bosshole Chronicles episodes talking about with regard to how you actually deal with your tormentor?

John: 17:26

Well, I can say that for one early in my career, I just bit my tongue. I did what was being asked of me, but I also was preparing to make an exit. So it was one of those things where I didn't feel I had the credibility or the experience to be able to challenge this individual and ask why are we doing this kind of work? This is inconsistent with what my role is. This seems like busy work. Just help me understand how this is going to make me a stronger, more effective individual in this particular role. And rather than do that, it was like, okay, I don't feel like I can move the needle and I'm just going to suck it up, do my work. But ultimately, this was sort of the catalyst that led me to want to make a change. Another example as I got older and I got more experienced and I think I got braver, I think I had more confidence in my ability to stand my ground and not be belligerent but be able to ask this individual and say listen. I'd like to talk to you about this because I don't agree. Now, the other thing is there had to be an element of psychological safety established, or at least that I could broach that topic with this individual. But there are other circumstances where it was like no way, I'm not, there's no way I would do this, because it will absolutely blow up in my face, and that's I would say.

John: 19:05

We've had a mixed bag from our guests on the podcast that have gone toe to toe with a boss or a mentor and had that conversation and challenged their authority or whatever. Whatever was happening, and there were circumstances where the person denied it oh my gosh, it's all over the board. Some that would own it, some that would say, yeah, I just really don't see you on this team, I don't care for you being on this team. It's like, well, at least that's honest. You know that would have been helpful to hear earlier, but I'm kind of all over the board on this. But we've heard every kind of response, I think.

Announcer: 19:42

Mm-hmm.

Karen: 19:43

Yeah, and I think most of us, you know, do what you did, bit your tongue, did what was asked of you. But there has to be, there's some resentment in there as well, because if you're, if you know that, if this continues, I'll just leave, I'll look for something else. We all try to be professional at first, but then it still builds up some of those other emotions. The emotions still don't go away and and and. Unfortunately, in a lot of places, if the tormentor of the boss hole is really bad, you just you're going to take off, you're going to find some other opportunity.

John: 20:21

Right yeah.

Karen: 20:22

And and the sad thing is I mean really, if you think about it, I am sure for you to do your best work, biting your tongue and just doing as you were told was not really the answer. That was probably not the way that you wanted to be acting at work.

John: 20:36

Right? Would that be a correct statement? Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely, for sure, yeah.

Karen: 20:41

Yeah, you wanted to contribute in the best way that you knew how, but that all of a sudden, now there's there's limits, right, because of this tormentor. So if, if you're like me, you probably were kind of trying to figure out, like, why is this happening? Mm-hmm, why do I have to work with somebody like this? What, what is the point of this? Did that, those types of things go through your head?

John: 21:06

Oh, for sure, For sure. And I remember in my career, at some point I think it was more in my 30s, Karen, I think at some point I think I was able to grow in my perspective of the world and people and and I remember this is this is something that I've shared with our boys and and I think it's just really a true element of life is that sometimes God gives you the answer but you don't know the question. And I kind of looked at, I kind of looked at work that way. It's like when I was, I had a, you know, I had a sort of in the middle of my career, I had a really unusual time where I was in a very unfamiliar market sector if you will enjoyed it, met some great people, but it was like why am I here?

John: 22:02

And in one case, no, in both cases I worked with a couple of different individuals that I think would classify as bossholes, but at that point it was like I was thinking okay, Lord, why am I supposed to? Why am I here? I don't understand why I'm here. I believe you will show this to me and I know I'm taking a more faith-based, spiritual approach to this, but quite frankly, I had no answer to that, but I figured I'd survived the previous tormentors. I learned from the tormentors, or I learned more about myself. Maybe that's a better way to look at it, but at that point it was like what the heck is going on here? And I at least had the comfort in realizing there will be an answer, just not yet. Does that make sense?

Karen: 22:46

Yes, it does, Because I think ultimately remember how we talked about it at the beginning. If you keep trying to change the other person, if you keep waiting for them to get hit by lightning or to go away or get fired, or whatever, right.

Karen: 22:59

Yeah, it's. You know what? That's not going to solve anything. So you have to. You have to change your mindset the way that you did. I may not really understand right now why I'm dealing with this person, but hopefully at some point it's going to reveal itself. Yes, there has to be something in it for you, or you wouldn't be going through it. So you know it's. That's the answer to what's the point. It is, there is opportunity for you to learn some things about yourself, right. That's sometimes that's really kind of the most important lessons, but it's also helping you build skills that if you can deal with tormentors and boss holes, right, that you can probably overcome lots of other things in your life. For sure. And so maybe it builds resilience, maybe it builds strength that way. But that's really that's really kind of part of changing the mindset, instead of wanting them to go away and whatever you have to get into a space in your head to say what am I supposed to be learning?

Karen: 24:09

What am I supposed to be learning from having to work with this tormentor, this boss hole, on a daily basis? Yeah, what is the lesson for me? And you really have to sit with that and think about it. And so I'll throw that your way, because I can see that you, you have some thoughts about that.

John: 24:27

Oh sure, and the word that comes to mind for me is redemption. And, and I know some people would say redemption would be as if that dude got hit by a bus tomorrow, that I would feel redeemed. I mean, that's of course not. I would never wish that on anybody we could talk about. That, you know, get pushing out a window.

John: 24:45

Those are the actually, you know, you and I have had enough of our, our, our sessions where we get to vent and just talk and it's it's, it's a safe space for us to say I'm really frustrated about this.

John: 24:56

Karen, help me, help me think through this.

John: 24:58

I love those sessions and but redemption is is, if you can and I think to your point, if you can find that space, that to re reframing, to say there is redemption in this circumstance in some way for me, and and I will survive this I will tell you through so many of our boss hole stories that, having lived through what are some really pretty horrible, I will tell you I had boss hole circumstances nothing as horrible as some of the people that have been on the show, thankfully, and and I, it pains me to hear some of these stories and what people have gone through. However, in virtually every case I would say, actually in every case, there's a sense of redemption, that that they have emerged stronger and better in some way through that pain. And it was pain for a lot of our, our guests, and I'll be forever grateful for their sharing their story. But I think part of the sharing was a bit therapeutic for them too. But anyway, no I, redemption comes. That word is just standing out there for me.

Karen: 26:13

Yeah, and you know it's interesting. When I put this class together and tor mentors was one of the words that I looked at when I got to the point where I was trying to think about all right, why do we have to deal with difficult people? Why is this person in my life? Why do I have to go through all of this stuff? What am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be learning? What am I supposed to be? What are my eyes supposed to be open to? That's when I looked again at that word tor mentor and I thought isn't that interesting. The word mentor is in the word "tor mentor. And it said to me huh, in every Tor mentor there's a teacher, in every Tor mentor there is a mentor. They are there. What is the purpose of it? What's the point of going through it? They're there to teach you something and if you can change your mindset to look at it that way you're going to be, you're going to help yourself get unstuck a whole lot sooner.

John: 27:17

And for everybody's benefit out there. When Karen and I were talking about this a couple of weeks ago and she shared that little golden nugget with me, that's when I said this has got to be on the podcast, because you're absolutely right in every tor mentor is a teacher, there's a mentor built into it. We just have to be able to see it. That's, that is, as our, as our dear friend Sarah best would say, pure gold. That is pure gold.

Karen: 27:43

That's right, and usually when people, when they get to the point where they're like they're my teacher, I don't want to give them credit for that, yeah what you don't have to.

Karen: 27:53

That's not anything you ever have to share with them. But whatever they're teaching you about you, whatever lessons you need to learn whether it's to build up your resilience, to build up your strength, to build up your confidence, to build up your ability to speak up when you need to speak up, etc. Etc. Etc They don't need to know that they did that for you, right, but you need to know that they did that for you so that you can make sense out of why are they in my life?

Karen: 28:19

Yeah why am I going through this?

John: 28:21

No, that's so. That's so good. That is so good. And, Karen, I know that this is just a selection of the questions and I'd be willing to bet if, if any of our listeners out there and your companies wanted to engage Karen in a workshop, you'd be willing to do that right.

Karen: 28:40

Oh, for sure. Yeah it's fun.

John: 28:42

Yeah.

Karen: 28:43

Even though it's a difficult topic.

John: 28:44

It is. It's actually fun, yeah, to help people get unstuck.

John: 28:49

So let's let's wrap up by highlighting or showcasing what have some of our tormentors taught us, without any real names, but I'll give you one for me and then we'll go back and forth. Like one in particular is he taught me that, while I don't need to be an expert in what my direct reports do, I at least need to be somewhat educated and well read about the work, because in one particular, this is actually in the episode, we were in we were in a call I took him on a call with a customer and he starts throwing out terms well, actually terms relative to that industry, but he was mispronouncing them and they were incorrect. And the customer was looking at me like you know, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about and it's like, yeah, I do, I do. It was, it was horrifying, it was so painful, so it's like I would not.

John: 29:49

He is. He taught me never to to one, try to bring myself off as knowing more than I actually do and be somewhat humble about the knowledge that I have, but be up to date on what my people are doing. That's what he taught me. What about you?

Karen: 30:06

So I just want to make one comment about what you learned from that boss hole. I think that is is much easier to learn things from bad bosses about what not to do. It is so much easier to learn that than watching somebody who's a really really good boss and trying to figure out what the heck they're doing, because it's subtle and you don't often notice what they're doing. Sometimes the tormentors teach us really important lessons like that by modeling exactly what not to do. So I think that those really good lessons. Okay For me and I would.

Karen: 30:46

I think that one of the things I learned because I worked for somebody who was a narcissistic bully and I thought what am I supposed to learn here? For me it was important. I grew up in a household where my sibling was bullied all the time and I never knew what that felt like until I worked for that particular boss and then I had a lot more compassion for my sibling and for what they had to go through, and what they dealt with was way worse than anything I dealt with in the workplace. So for me that was that was an important lesson for me and I nothing I ever expected to learn in the workplace working for somebody else.

John: 31:28

Well, and we actually have a two part episode with Kim Scott and she talks specifically about bullying and intimidation in there and I've never really I don't know that I really experienced that in the workplace, but it's more prevalent, that, I think, than I think people would want to acknowledge. And it's really critical. It will. It will consume people, it will. It will beat them down so dramatically. I have another one for you.

John: 31:56

This was another tormentor boss hole. I would say that he kind of vacillated in and out of the boss hole zone and just kind of depended on the time of day, time of week, whatever, and he was very sarcastic and in meetings he would make super sarcastic comments about people I mean demeaning, and he thought he was funny and there was that really awkward laugh around they're going, oh yeah, that's funny. But the person felt like crap. And I remember one time we were out at a company dinner and I don't know. I mean I was sharing some story or whatever and he made just a real sarcastic remark to me and he could tell by the look on my face I was not happy about that and and almost immediately he retracted it and it's like you know, it don't ever put yourself.

John: 32:49

So what I learned from that tormentor was, first of all, it's just not I don't think it's in my nature to demean somebody, but sarcasm is never appropriate, it's never funny, it always cuts people down. Everybody gets cut down. And why even throw that out there, like I mean, like like we've been taught, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all and keep it above. Keep it above the line. Sarcasm would, we would call that below the line. He taught me. My comments, my conversation, my let's keep it above the line, let's let's talk people up versus sort of pulling them down. You have any more. You have any more.

Karen: 33:26

I do, and this this will sound a little strange, but this is this is honestly the truth the last tormentor that I worked for. I went into that job without knowing that that person was going to be a tormentor. I went into that job because I had run my own business for a long time. So I went back to work for somebody else and I thought I want to see what it's like, to see if I can work out of a space of unconditional love for the people that I work with and the people that I work for.

Karen: 33:56

And that boss hole, that tormentor, challenged me every day to see if I could stay in a space of unconditional love. And I'm not telling you that I did it well every single day that I was there, but I think I did it better than I had ever done it before, and I think that's what I was supposed to learn that even, even even with a tormentor, a boss hole, I could still be in a space of unconditional love. For the work that I was doing and for people that I was doing with. That doesn't mean I didn't go home and punch some things and have to repair walls and things like that, but while I was there I really, really, really tried to speak, be in a space of unconditional love, and I think that's why I stayed as long as I did.

Karen: 34:45

Yeah because I kept thinking there's more for me to learn here, there's more ways in which I can look at myself and see how I'm triggering them and and really try to make it more of a give-and-take. So I do think that that was one of the things I had to learn and it was really it was. I don't know that it was worth it, but it was a lot about.

John: 35:06

I would say it is because I get to work with you now. We get to work with you now and and you know, your this version of Karen Shulman clearly was informed by that experience. As hard as that discipline may have been, you may have cracked a lot of pickleballs as a result of that. I don't know if you were playing at that time, but you know, I totally get that. I really do get that, and you know the idea of unconditional love in the workplace is such a it's a concept that 10, 20 years ago it's like what are you talking about? We're gonna talk about that stuff that's so warm and that's a soft and mushy and stuff it's like, no, this is human and we have to be more human. You know, there's so not just at work, but all over, but that's what makes the difference, that's what keeps managers and supervisors out of the bosshole zone. So I mean, this is so great, Karen, and and I love the idea that you know, within every tor mentor as a teacher, there is a mentor literally in there. So my hope is that our listeners are taking that away. So anybody, if you have any more questions about this or you think your organization would be interested in connecting with Karen, just reach out info, or John@ realgoodventures. com. Whatever will make that happen, but it's I think it would be a really anything like that that helps to manage the way we deal with conflict and deal with difficult people in the workplace is only going to make us a more more effective workplace period.

John: 36:34

And in one thing that I will encourage everybody to do and you heard this, you're gonna hear this in another podcast Dana Vogelmeier. She was just a recent guest and we talked a little bit about her book and her horrible bosshole story. One of the things that we talked about is we talk a lot about tour mentors and bossholes on here, but let's not forget the really good managers that are out out there and, for those of you that are listening, that work for a non- bosshole, non-tormentor, make sure to thank them, make sure just to take them aside or take a moment to say I just want to let you know how much I appreciate you, because managers right now are a lot of them are burning out just because they they're of the circumstances, not being equipped or prepared, but the ones that are stepping up and not drifting into the bosshole zone. Make sure that you're encouraging them because they they need that too. So, Karen, as always, amazing. Thank you so much. This was great.

Karen: 37:33

This was fun, John. Thanks so much, and thanks for sharing some of your stories. I learned more about you today, oh, there's always more to learn right.

John: 37:41

Well, listen every yes, yes. Well, listen everybody. Be well, take care. Go thank your wonderful non- bosshole managers and non-tormentors out there and we will see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebossholechronicles. com. Once again, my story@ the bosshole chronicles. com. We'll see you again soon.