Adam Berke - The Intersection of Software and Bosshole® Prevention

We are thrilled to welcome a new colleague from The Predictive Index, Adam Berke!  Adam's company, Charma (that he co-founded and where he served as CEO) was recently acquired by The Predictive Index to bring a powerful new aspect to PI's software and all Talent Optimization initiatives - especially around managers!  Big news for 2024!  Be sure to reach out to the team at Real Good Ventures to learn more about PI if you aren't familiar with it.

Click HERE to contact RGV  to learn more about PI's new capabilities in 2024
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Transcript

John Broer: 0:06

We have got some big news for the Bosshole Transformation Nation. This week we are going to be joined by Adam Berke, and Adam is the Chief Strategy Officer at the Predictive Index. But that's a new role for him because his company, Charma, was recently acquired by PI, and Adam co-founded and was the CEO for Charma, which is an amazing software platform that literally puts people development in the hands of the managers and supervisors. If there was ever a tool to help keep managers and supervisors out of the Bosshole Zone, this is going to be it, and we at Real Good Ventures, as certified partners of the Predictive Index, we couldn't be more excited by what this is going to represent in 2024.

John Broer: 0:52

You can go learn more about him in the links in the show notes, but make sure, for those of our listeners that do not use the Predictive Index, this is a great time to understand just how powerful it is in terms of overall talent optimization, but mainly equipping and helping managers be so much more effective in developing their direct reports. This is going to have such a huge impact on our world and the world of our PI clients. So listen in and get a chance to meet Adam Berke. The Bosshole Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode. Adam, it is so good to have you on the Bosshole Chronicles. Welcome.

John Broer: 1:54

Thank you, yeah, excited to be here and thanks for having me. Well and, as our listeners know, we're incredibly excited about you know, Charma becoming part of the Predictive Index family. We'll get to that eventually. Sara and I are both just really happy that you're able to join us, because this information, the news was announced just last week. It's a big deal. Let me just ask you, we'll start here in terms of your world, your world is really changing. How are you doing with all this, the big announcement and the news of the acquisition?

Adam Berke: 2:27

Yeah, it's been pretty wild. I would say I'm still in the process of absorbing it all, because we had been talking with Predictive Index since April, I guess. Okay, there was a long buildup before we made the call to join forces and then, the way things turned out, the deal closed and we started on the same day, so there was very little time to bask and reflect. We immediately started drinking from the fire hose, immediately started training. I mean great, great things, great way to do it, I guess, for partners and customers. We got to work immediately. So the first six weeks were really busy and, yeah, just a big change in my life. I had founded a company prior to Charma that was about PI's size, that was in the marketing technology space. That company, in 2007, was there for 10 years and it was 400 or so employees when I left, and so I'm familiar with that, with the stage, but had been in early stage startup land. Charma was 10 people or so.

Adam Berke: 3:37

Right and that was in the last few years. So you know, just all of a sudden leapfrogging into the larger organization and learning how it operates, and learning the PI product. It's been drinking from the fire hose, as the cliche goes.

John Broer: 3:51

Yeah, that's pretty consistent with what happens in Boston. Our wonderful friends and colleagues at PI. Go ahead, Sara.

Sara Best: 3:58

What I would say thank God, you're a Venturer, because you love a big challenge right, not everybody always says that, but yeah.

John Broer: 4:06

Before we talk about the future and how excited we are just to be able to add this to an already powerful platform. I mean, PI is transformational and this is going to elevate it exponentially. I believe let's go back, Adam you know you're the CEO and co-founder of Charma and take us back to the beginning, because on the Boss hole Chronicles, you know, we never want to waste an opportunity to learn from a bad boss, and I got to believe the origin of Charma somehow was influenced, perhaps by some bad managers. I don't know. Don't want to tell your own story, but take us back to the beginning. What was the inspiration in creating this amazing platform?

Adam Berke: 4:50

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately the bad manager was probably me and that was sort of that was that was really, honestly, that was the inspiration, you know. Going back to the, you know again, no ill will about it or nothing malicious, just not not just learning what it took to be a great manager and feeling like I didn't have the tools to help support the behaviors that I wanted to implement at scale. And so, going back to the little anecdote I alluded to around founding, co-founding the previous company back in 2007, that was, you know, three or four of us in a, in a. You know the cliche story of, you know, four people in a literal garage, like our first office space was connected to an underground garage and then seeing that company grow and helping it grow along the way to, you know, as I mentioned, hundreds of employees. I struggled for sure, evolving and adapting to being a manager and ultimately, you know, my, my kind of sweet spot is being an entrepreneurial product type and being, you know, hands on and product and hands on with customers and, like a lot of people, the, the, the things that make you great in that, in your kind of individual contributor role, are not the things that necessarily translate to being a great manager and ultimately being an executive that was managing other managers, and so I felt like I was kind of struggling to get up to speed on how to be a good manager at the same time as, as an organization, we were growing so fast and trying to put systems and product process in place to help the organization implement best practices around management and operations. And we had, you know, a lot of people like me who were being promoted and getting into management roles, and so you know, I was struggling with it myself and let you know what didn't feel super. I didn't feel like like I was on super strong footing to, to say, okay, well, here's how you could be a better manager, because I didn't feel like I was keeping up necessarily in that capacity. And so I think, you know, I don't want to be too hard on myself I think I did did some things well, but certainly things I could have.

Adam Berke: 6:57

A lot of things I could have done better, and the, you know, the tools that we got from HR that were ostensibly supposed to help with that problem would tend to fall flat. So that would make for an organization peter out, or they were just sort of designed without the end user in mind. They were designed more to solve HR people's problems, which are super important and you know your product needs to do if you're going to be implemented by HR. But they were just over, they were underweighted to solving for what the frontline manager, frontline employee, their teams, what they actually wanted on a day to day and week to week basis to be effective at work and operate effectively, have good workplace relationships. And so we started with that.

Adam Berke: 7:43

We kind of flipped the whole model and said, you know, because of my personal experiences, you know what was sort of the co-pilot, the toolkit that I would have wanted as a manager, that would have helped me be a better manager. And that was the inspiration for the product. And, yeah, over time we realized managers would love us and bring us into the organization. Well then, yeah, who do they? Who ends up kind of implementing it for the rest of the organization? Often HR. So you have to understand what their needs are as well. But they have a lot. It solves a problem just by the fact that their frontline employees like the product, because you know they don't want to go out on a limb and force something onto the organization that people don't like. So we ended up kind of solving for both sides of that equation, just coming at it from a slightly different direction from other companies in the space previously.

John Broer: 8:27

Well, that's a pretty big solution step, meaning it's not unusual for organizations to put take individual contributors, let's elevate them into a management or supervisory role. We don't give them any training, we don't prepare them in any way. It's like go get them, kid, figure it out, and we know that doesn't work. That is a that gap right there. And as we say, and just so you're not being yourself up too much, Adam, nobody is born to be a Boss hole. Okay, but sometimes the, the circumstances, the structure or lack thereof, just kind of thrusts us into the Boss hole zone, as we like to say. But clearly you had a vision for saying, and I think Mike Zanni said this when he made the announcement to the rest of the partner network, is this Charma? This platform allows us to meet managers where they work. Right, that's right. Tell us more about that, that part right there. I think that's the key where this is going to make such a transformational difference.

Adam Berke: 9:22

Yeah, it ties into kind of that product vision. I was just saying where, where, there, where, historically, products in this category have not taken that end user to mind and meanwhile there has been, you know, just an evolution in the way software products are built that haven't found their way really to the HR space as much. The movement of what's called, you know, bottoms up, where you start with the end user and then it spreads in the organization. Some people call it product led growth and you know Slack was a leader in that and loads of other productivity tools that you know work on solving a core problem for the end user in a really specific and deep way. And if you do that, good things will happen. And you know it doesn't happen. Good things will happen, but you need to do a lot of work to make them happen in terms of getting that adoption across the organization.

Adam Berke: 10:11

But that was always our mindset like let's solve a problem for the manager. Obviously that means solving for the IC, often too, because a complaint managers will have will be like hey, I like this. This helps me be more important. The use case that we started with was the weekly one on one in terms of managers, where they are just that we were. We tried a lot of different things but after iterating, that was the thing that managers really needed and wanted help with how to keep you know, if you have four or five, eight or 10 direct reports, how do you keep all those one on one's organized? You know, some of those direct reports have been with you a very long time. Some of them are very new. They all have their all different places in their career perhaps and their trajectory with the company. That's just way too much mental overhead to stack to just remember, even if you're putting things in a best case scenario and some sort of agenda or doc. And so our goal was just to help with that and just make those patterns.

Adam Berke: 11:06

The original name of the company was actually Work Patterns because of that, but Charma was a little more friendly and aspirational name. Yeah, that was sort of the idea solve for the manager's day to day needs. And if you're solving an acute enough problem in a strong enough way, you know the business side of things will take care of itself, people will talk about it, people will spread the product, and so, yeah, that meeting managers where they are has been, yeah, kind of core to our DNA from day one, like what do manager? What are their existing workflows? What are the tools you know? Do they use Zoom? Do they use Asana? Let's play nice with all these tools. That was kind of one of the core problems of HR tools in the past.

Adam Berke: 11:44

They're siloed, they feel like an administrative side show to your real work, versus pulling that real work quote, unquote in air quotes into the, into the management tool and saying, okay, well, yeah, you're doing, you completed these tickets in Jira. Let's talk about those. What went well, it didn't go well, and let's look at them. And you know it's all fitting in with my workflow. I don't even have a zillion different tabs open and try to hunt things down. It all kind of links up and works together seamlessly. So, yeah, I agree, like people have tool fatigue and you know in order and so you've got. Meeting people where they are making things fit nicely into their existing workflows is just key to getting that. You know. Initial user adoption and ongoing adoption.

Sara Best: 12:27

So what other tools? Let you know, the one to one, what a powerful place to start, because that's. I think, one of the biggest gaps we have in management. What else did you focus on?

Adam Berke: 12:37

The one on one ended up being like a really good jumping off point. So it's really hard to you know if you're, if you're building a product, it's really hard to try to get people to create new habits and new behaviors. The one on one was, at least in many cases, a behavior that people already had. Those, those one on ones might not be good or effective or well run, but they they kind of they're on the calendar in many cases and, by the way, if they're not and that's actually a problem we hear from HR a tool like ours help them, help them implement that best practice, because now you have something that helps you implement one on ones, helps you guide them, and so you know that all kind of works nicely together. The one on one we observed is sort of the just the atomic building block of the relationship. Like that's the point where you know you're going to talk about stuff, the rhythm of the relationship. You know you always have that. So it's a great jumping off point to these other management workflows, like giving recognition in my boss hole moments. That isn't very good at doing that and remember to do that Just getting the nudge to say hey, you haven't given Jill recognition in a while. By the way, here are the things that they've done in Charma I hear the action items they've completed. Here are the things that they've completed in other systems. Maybe one of those things is a good thing for recognition. You can do it as part of the one-on-one or you could do it asynchronously, but either way, that's a great jumping off point to provide a prompt or reminder.

Adam Berke: 14:14

Feedback obviously another big one. People struggle with giving feedback. It's hard to do, it's hard to remember. Just having that nudge in the tool saying hey, you're one-on-ones coming up, good time to give Jill feedback. And here's a template for you. Pick a couple adjectives that represent some of the constructive feedback you might want to give and we'll use AI to help you write it. Obviously, edit it from there. But trying to take friction out of these experiences. Goals is a huge one.

Adam Berke: 14:42

So many times I've seen and we've done, I've fallen victim to this. You want to make your goal setting for your company more thoughtful. You want goals to connect to one another. You want to have transparency and clarity. So you're doing something in a spreadsheet and it just gets all disorganized and you want something better. But the problem is the tools. Then you spend a couple of days putting all of your goals into some goal setting cycle and then you don't check them again until the next goal setting cycle. That's not weird. So having your goals connected into your one-on-one cadence another example of something like okay, obviously we should build a goal setting module. So when you create a goal in Charma it says when do you want to check in on it, how often, with who? It'll automatically put that goal check in onto your agenda so that your goals and objectives actually tie into your operating cadence and actually drives day-to-day and week-to-week decisions, conversations, prioritization, etc. So those are just a few examples.

John Broer: 15:48

And we will be right back.

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John Broer: 17:01

OK, let's get back to the program. I think the term you used that jumped out at me was tool fatigue, because I think you're right, you know the managers with whom we work. They have so many disparate channels of information or tools that there is no integration and no connection, and so a case in point is like a 360. We were constantly saying, well, what about a 360? What about a 360? Well, those always seem as like a bolt-on and it's just like oh yeah, we did that. And just like goals. We could forget about it, unless it's right in front of us. Charma has a 360 component built in, isn't that right?

Adam Berke: 17:40

Yeah, and going back to the ways it's integrated, like you want to then present that the results of the 360 with the person at a check-in with them, having all the logistics of that 360 kind of automated, having the notifications go out to the people who are going to contribute it organizing that workflow again just takes a lot of the mental overhead and just activation energy out of running a 360, and so that's what we really try to do and integrated back to that one on one experience. So okay, I know when the when the 360 needs to happen, I know when the. You know I can just hit a, hit a button, those notifications go out, the feedback will come in, I'll get it all summarize, it will automatically go on the agenda and just making all that stuff, all the logistics of that smoke, flow smoothly and be integrated to where you're used to do and work really important.

John Broer: 18:32

Not that to make it to some it's like a one stop shop. I don't want to over oversimplify it, but for people it seems like I can just go here and all my stuff is here.

Adam Berke: 18:41

Yeah, our goal is to be the one stop shop for managing your workplace relationships, one stop shop for everything, and you know we're not right.

John Broer: 18:48

Better, better description yes.

Adam Berke: 18:51

Yeah, we're other like you know, eight. There are loads of other HR products and tools out there. But yeah, we want to be. You know, when you, when it becomes a mantra at, at, at folks that adopt Charma, that like, put it in Charma, that's like becomes the like you know, don't, don't DM me after hours, that's you know. Or I'm saying a Boss hole move would be like oh, I just had an idea. I gotta tell Jill and you know, no matter what time it is, I'm gonna DM it to her. Like Jill doesn't know, is she supposed to like stop everything and work on that, right, you just DM from her boss is your inbox, but put it in Charma, I can't.

Adam Berke: 19:28

The boss can get it out of their head without being a Boss hole. That boss knows then that, okay, I've documented this, Jill doesn't get disrupted and we now have a like a triaging mechanism. It will be addressed at our next one on one. It'll be addressed at the appropriate time. I can stop worrying at the boss as the boss without being the Boss hole and disrupting more, you know, creating some big Slack thread that I now need to pay attention to or some email that gets lost. So yeah for the, for the relationship. We do want to kind of guide, guide a an effective workplace relationship, so everything related to that.

Sara Best: 20:05

I just have to comment.

Sara Best: 20:05

I love that you described it rhythm of the relationship you know, the relationship and being supported by formats, processes and systems where you can just kind of plug this in. It's true that many of us don't know how to do that effectively, like I don't even know what the relationship should be. I know I'm supposed to touch on these important things. I know I'm supposed to give this person feedback. I hate to get people feedback. We hear that all the time. I'd rather punch myself in the head. But the reality is you've created a formula that, if people practice and they actually fill in the words you know what was the?

Sara Best: 20:42

The formula does the heavy lifting and then it's just practice and routine and mechanism, which I think is the core to behavioral change. It's a format people can follow. I think is genius. I love it. I wondered, if I may ask you you know round about the time when performance management all of a sudden had to be more of a conversation than an event. I don't know when exactly that happened, sometime in the last decade. Yeah, saying you know, it can't just be a one time conversation, we have to, we have to have a relationship, but nobody really knew what that meant or what that would look like, was Charma. The answer to that it's one answer.

Adam Berke: 21:18

Yeah, I mean, I think that that is. That is one of those themes that we picked up on and, because of you know, we started the company in the midst of that transition that you're talking about, where people kind of felt burnt out by the, the historical norm of, you know, the bi-annual performance review, and is realizing that that didn't really more. This view of, like, continuous performance management is sort of the buzzword around it. How do you have these huge heavy weight once or twice a year conversations? How do we sprinkle things throughout the, the lighter weight things, throughout the cadence of the relationship or just throughout throughout the overtime, and so, yeah, the good part about that is like each of those things are lighter weight and easier to do and then there's less to, there's less surprises At the buy, at the bi-annual or annual review cycle, not, not, not that you don't have to do those things are, not that those are good to potentially have, but at least it's not like oh my God, you've been waiting for four months to tell me this.

Adam Berke: 22:21

You avoid those types of pitfalls. The challenge with implementing that approach is there's more to keep track of on a week to week basis, and that is where, like, a tool like ours does help, where, okay, we're going to give you the nudges, we're going to give you the reminders and give you something to follow so you're not having to remember, like, oh, I've got eight people, when was the last time I thought I told Jill something? But did I really tell her something, or did I not? Or did she get it? You know, it's a little bit of structure, a little bit of formality, a little bit of yeah, just process the right amount to make sure these things happen without making it like bloated and heavy weight really does help to avoid some of those pitfalls of the like. More sporadic performance review approach.

John Broer: 23:05

So back in April the conversation started and now fast forward to the announcement last week and Charma is becoming part of the world of Predictive Index and again, we're incredibly excited about it because you know, we all know, how critical it is to put data in the hands of the managers now, right now, in our platform and our listeners who also happen to use P I know that this happens within the inspire module that you have the relationship guides, management strategy guides, those tools that help managers be more effective. This integration is literally just going to make that part of the workflow. Now PI data will be right in front of them. I don't mean to oversimplify it and I realize how complex this is on the backside, but, Adam, you're coming at it from the Charma of perspective and now that you have learned more about PI and you're part of the PI family, what can we expect? I mean, when we sit down and we are managers, look at that screen. They're going to see PI data sitting right in front of them, right.

Adam Berke: 24:12

That's right.

Adam Berke: 24:12

I mean, that's what made the. You know, going back to those conversations that we started to have back in April, that's what made the opportunity with PI really stand out as a huge win-win because, yeah, you mentioned the ways that it would make organizations who use PI more successful by putting the behavioral data at the fingertips of managers, but it also is going to make our product way better because, you know, going back to some of the themes that we just talked about, these cadences, these rhythms, should be influenced by who the people are and what resonates, and so this is getting out into some of the more future vision stuff. But obviously, you know we're going to relaunch a PI branded version of the app, so you know it feels cohesive. But there's more features that we're going to do and you know, infusing the PI magic into the product is, you know what it's all about. That's what's going to make this a home run, and you know we talked about we want to be the place you go to manage your workplace relationships.

Adam Berke: 25:20

In the past, we've, you know, tried to allow people to customize and personalize those in various ways, but that relies on the- you know the person figuring that out and you know adjusting defaults and things like that, and we know that's that that requires work for people to do and versus in the future state. Again, this is this is more future vision.

Adam Berke: 25:41

How can we, you know, based on the behavioral assessment, and we already know that I'm a Venturer and you're a Captain, etc. How can we personalize the experience automatically and infuse some of the stuff that you might get from inspire into the experience and that might translate into things like proposed one on one agenda topics that fit. That might translate into things like how you give feedback and the wording of it and the presentation of it and giving you reminders. Hey, it's time to get feedback, but this person is like this and you tend to be like that. So, therefore, take these things into account. You know it's just going to be. It's going to make our product in the future PI version of charmer so much better. It really is a one plus one equals three kind of scenario.

Sara Best: 26:30

I'm stuck with the thought that if you're a manager out there listening, and whether you believe people are your job or not, we believe that they are. Developing your people is your job.

Sara Best: 26:40

You're going to have a platform and tools you can use to make it second nature to make it part of how you roll, and the idea that we are all different, that managers manage differently, they have different styles of operation. Taking that into account both from an inside out perspective and then being very vigilant about who I have around me, but even being aided by the software that tells me watch out for this, pay attention to this. This is the best way to package this. It's phenomenal.

Adam Berke: 27:09

Amazing. Yeah, really, really powerful nudges in the future there that we can create. Yeah, to remove the 10% most egregious errors in giving feedback and engaging in a relationship and uncover the 10% upside as well.

John Broer: 27:27

And this is also going to be supported by an element of AI, correct?

Adam Berke: 27:31

Yeah, that's right and that's. Having the PI proprietary data will allow us to inform the AI in a more customized way. So, instead of just like going to chat GPT and say, "write a performance review, we'll have all this background on the relationship, will know the behavioral assessments and so will we be able to help you give feedback that is written in the appropriate way. It will just do a far better job helping you do that.

Adam Berke: 28:03

And then obviously the person needs to be on top of that, being like that's didn't quite nail it. But if we could save you 10%, 20% of the time of just getting out of blank page problem and giving you a pretty good first pass and some ideas or an outline to work from for any of these things is just a tremendous time saver. It just makes the likelihood that these like high value activities actually happen, because it's just that activation energy. The manager's like, "oh, feedback too much work, versus like, hey, here's based on work that's been done and your behavioral assessments, here's some things that you could do. Do these sound about right? Start there. And then that just makes you know, gets the, gets the cold, start out of the way.

John Broer: 28:48

Adam, nothing scares us more than when managers start just guessing at how to deal with people, and PI is so powerful in terms of get taking the guesswork out of understanding what drives people and how you can approach them. This is going to literally put it right in their hands every single day and what it sounds like in a very, very easy and understandable platform.

Adam Berke: 29:13

I mean there is a lot of functionality. You know we talked about a lot of it. You know, between feedback and one on one's and feedback and kudos and goal setting and 360s, and so, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of powerful stuff there and, like our goal, and you know, the feedback we look forward to getting from partners and customers is how can we make it more cohesive, how can we make it easier to use, how can we make it easier to adopt and make sure that people do get the benefit of it on a day to day and week week basis?

Sara Best: 29:38

So just an off the wall question. I'm a manager, can I screw this up? Can I mess this thing up.

Adam Berke: 29:45

I mean, I don't think software is the solution for all of our challenges, but you know we want to, we want to set. I think it does a good job of setting people up for success. You could still say the wrong thing. It's not going to solve all of all the world's problems, but you know, I think it nudges things in the right direction and we've seen it have a have a strong impact in organizations and you guys have seen firsthand the impact that PI can have. And so you know, bringing the intentionality of like thoughtful, of a thoughtful relationship cadence, together with the thoughtfulness of the psychometrics and the personalization that can come along with that, I do think it's. I think I think it will really help organizations operate more effectively and more harmoniously.

John Broer: 30:28

I can tell you we're excited. I can also tell you that our clients are excited. Since the announcement went out, I've been getting emails saying what is this? When can we start now? By the way, two of those, a couple of those, have been from captains and persuaders, so I mean that's not surprising. They want to go right now and use this, but we are thrilled about what's going to be new and coming from Charma within the PI family in 2024. And I know that there's still some things that are developing that we're not, at least on, you know, December 11th, able to share with the rest of the world. But is there anything we haven't covered, Adam, that is okay for you to share or announce to the world?

Adam Berke: 31:09

I mean, I think a lot of the stuff you know, it will, you know the functionality that exists in the product today will all be there in the new PI version. Yeah, you know, the first pass will be rebranded so that it has that cohesive PI experience that I mentioned. I'm very you know. I mentioned some of the long term vision around how we can use PI data to personalize the experience. You know nothing specific to commit to yet, but that is an area where, like on day one, we want something to start showing the possibilities and the potential. So we're pretty intent on having that on day one and then just something in that area. So, yeah, it won't be, it won't be that grand vision. I just I kind of laid out. But you know we'll have some aspect of that PI special sauce in there. And then you know, the requisite caveat as I, as I hear all the excitement we hear it too, as we've talked to, you know, existing PI customers is, you know, bear with us.

Adam Berke: 32:05

Like bringing two products together, there's going to be some bumps in the road as well. We are- but we're a very, like, responsive development team. We want that feedback. But yeah, putting bringing two platforms together, they'll probably be some bugs. They'll probably, you know so but as long as we start with the right expectations and the right early adopters and we'll build from there. Yeah, super excited by the long term potential of it.

Sara Best: 32:28

I'm going to remember this moment, our opportunity to chat with you. As this thing takes flight and, you know, a year, a couple of years from now, looking back and going, wow, remember when we had that conversation with Adam just getting going and it's really going to change. It's going to change the management relationship to their employees forever. Legacy stuff right here.

John Broer: 32:48

Well, Adam, thank you so much. Clearly we're excited. Thank you for taking the time to be on the Bosshole Chronicles and make us part of the rollout and the announcement. We just wanted the Bosshole Transformation Nation to hear this. So go into the show notes, connect with Adam, and there will be more coming about Charma and Adam, welcome to the PI family. We're thrilled to have you here and we're excited. It's going to be some transformative stuff that's happening here soon.

Adam Berke: 33:15

Awesome. Yeah, I definitely feel like we found the right place to land.

Sara Best: 33:19

We'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles.

John Broer: 33:25

We'd like to thank our guests today on the Bosshole Chronicles and if you have a Bosshole Chronicles story of your own, please email us at mystory@thebosholechronicles. com. Once again, mystory@thebosholechronicles. com, we'll see you again soon.