The Bosshole® Chronicles
The Bosshole® Chronicles
5th Anniversary Flashback - "Don't Bring Him Back..."
A fifth anniversary deserves a true origin story, and ours begins with a manager who meant well and nearly torched hard-won credibility. We rewind to the first Bosshole Chronicles episode and unpack two moments that shaped our mission: a plant visit where a leader faked fluency and a high-stakes client dinner that turned into a monologue. The details are uncomfortable on purpose—because every leader has felt the urge to fill silence, prove expertise, or take control at the worst time.
HERE ARE MORE RESOURCES FROM REAL GOOD VENTURES:
Never miss a good opportunity to learn from a bad boss...
Click HERE to get your very own Reference Profile. We use The Predictive Index as our analytics platform so you know it's validated and reliable. Your Reference Profile informs you of your needs, behaviors, and the nuances of what we call your Behavioral DNA. It also explains your work style, your strengths, and even the common traps in which you may find yourself. It's a great tool to share with friends, family, and co-workers.
Follow us on Instagram HERE and make sure to share with your network!
Follow us on X HERE and make sure to share with your network!
Provide your feedback HERE, please! We love to hear from our listeners and welcome your thoughts and ideas about how to improve the podcast and even suggest topics and ideas for future episodes.
Visit us at www.realgoodventures.com. We are a Talent Optimization consultancy specializing in people and business execution analytics. Real Good Ventures was founded by Sara Best and John Broer who are both Certified Talent Optimization Consultants with over 50 years of combined consulting and organizational performance experience. Sara is also certified in EQi 2.0. RGV is also a Certified Partner of Line-of-Sight, a powerful organizational health and execution platform. RGV is known for its work in leadership development, executive coaching, and what we call organizational rebuild where we bring all our tools together to diagnose an organization's present state and how to grow toward a stronger future state.
Welcome back to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, welcoming you to a really unique and special episode of The Bosshole Chronicles. This is actually a flashback, but it's a flashback to our very first episode. It turns out that today is exactly the fifth anniversary of the launch of The Boss hole Chronicles. I can't believe it. December 16th, 2020 is when we first rolled out The Boss hole Chronicles. So I thought, hey, as a little bit of a celebration to five years of doing this work and doing it for you in all appreciation for our listeners and our followers out there in The Boss hole Transformation Nation. Let's take a little walk back down memory lane and listen to our first one. We actually rolled out three episodes on the 16th in 2020. But this is one that was kind of near and dear to my heart because it was my bosshold story, and I just wanted to reshare it with you. And just to provide a little bit of context of what has happened in the last five years, we have published 262 episodes. And The Boss hole Chronicles. Thanks to you, thanks to all of you, we are in the top 10% of podcasts worldwide. That is over 3.7 million podcasts, according to Listen Notes, who track popularity of podcasts. So thank you to all of you. Let's jump into our very first episode. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best:Well, greetings and welcome to The Boss hole Chronicles. This is actually our inaugural episode. I'm here with my partner and friend and great colleague, John Broer. John, how are you?
John Broer:I'm good, Sara. I'm real good, Sarah. How are you?
Sara Best:I am also real good.
John Broer:Real good.
Sara Best:Yes. It's so great to kick off something that we uh have definitely heard from others and generated a lot of enthusiasm about because I think it's it's a common challenge that many employees face in the work world. It's it's having to deal with a bosshole. And today we're gonna launch our podcast by zeroing in, John, and getting to hear a little bit of your story, your bosshole story.
John Broer:My bosshole story. Well, my yeah, yep. I I'm I'm glad to share it. I have a lot of them, but this one I think really kind of captures what it what it's what it means to work for a boss hole.
Sara Best:Yeah. Well, I I'm intrigued, John. Well, let's hear a little bit about you. What's your reference profile? You know, we use people analytics, we use behavioral data to better understand and diagnose the challenges that we encounter with people, including ourselves. So let's hear a little bit about your reference profile.
John Broer:Okay, happy to do that. I'm a captain. By the way, you're doing a really good job at this. Uh, I'm I will I will edit that part out. Um I'm a captain, and um so my reference profile is known for being independent. Um I really like variety and change, flexibility. I tend to be competitive and driving. I've also, while I am non-conforming, I also understand the need for some rules. I prefer my own rules, but you know, change is something that um I like. I'm I normally will be at the front end of it. And controlling the big picture is is also something that's known for a uh or is indicative of a captain reference profile. I I also know that I can come up as being a bit authoritative and brusque. Um my wife would say, Why do you think you have the have to be the boss of everyone? And she's right. But anyway, uh, and I do struggle with direction sometimes and and structure, but that's kind of what a captain is all about, and it's pretty pretty much me to a T.
Sara Best:Well, and I love the simplicity of the title Captain as a reference profile. It it kind of sums it up in one word. I certainly find you to be a natural leader and someone who seeks to have impact. You're sociable, you're friendly, you're people-oriented. And I also like the fact that you said you're competitive. I think you can also uh jump to the challenge when there's pressure for time, like when there's there's a need to move fast uh and change things up. You do really well in those environments. So it's good to have that background. Set the stage for us. Let's hear a little bit about your bosshole blender, your blob bosshole experience.
John Broer:Got it. Um, well, we're gonna call my bosshole Fred. And of course, we never use any real names or organizations on here, but just to just to maintain that anonymity, because this isn't about being mean, this is about learning. So, Fred, uh, Fred, just to set the stage for you, I always contend had had the opinion that Fred would have been a great neighbor. If you were building a shed in your backyard or you were putting a deck on the back of your house, I mean, he would have brought over a cooler of beer and helped you with it and then sat around and you know, just uh talked about anything. And I mean, he really was that kind of guy, very generous in spirit. When it came to being a manager, that's where everything just fell apart for him. And really quick, before I get to the actual bosshole story, I remember now you know a little bit about me as a captain. Well, I was out there in a remote territory. I was furthest away from the home office, I was opening a brand new territory, always had, always had, you know, the highest sales, you know, I was blessed with a great area, understood the product line, great customer base, and I was developing out there, but I never heard from him. And so a captain, even though I tend to be task focused, my extroversion is pretty high. So my need for social interaction is still there, but I was working remotely. And I remember one time calling Fred on the phone, we we were just we had a just a quick check-in, and I said, Hey, you know, Fred, I I hadn't heard from you in a while. I just want to see how things are going. And he said, Well, if you were screwing up, I'd have given you a call. And I was like, Yeah, there you go, right there. So so while he is gen may have been generous in the spirit of being a neighbor, he sucked at being a manager and didn't understand how to develop people. So we um I was opening this territory and he was coming out to travel with me. And there are two examples from this particular trip. And Fred came out, I picked him up at the airport, and whatever I, whenever I had a manager come out and travel with me, I always wanted to prepare provide them at least with an overview of these are the the customers of the prospects on whom we're calling, and these are our objectives. You know, just lay the groundwork. And so he's not walking into a cult. We had one meeting with a plant manager, and so the products we manufactured went into paper making, and we were talking to the plant manager of a large mill, and one of the aspects of paper making is you know, paper is like 98% water before it goes on the paper machine or the Ford Rainier, and all the water drains off, and then you're left with the paper fibers, and that's and they dry that. Well, that slurry before it goes onto the paper machine, it's called furnish. And now this is years ago, but I I think that's still the right term, but it was called furnish, and the furnish would go onto the paper machine. So we're sitting there in this call, and Fred referred to it as furbish with a B. And he said furbish. If he said it once, he said it ten times. And the plant manager, who is not only a chemical engineer, but a paper chemist, while Fred was talking, wasn't looking at Fred, he was looking right at me, like saying, You know as well as I this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, this this was the the air the thought bubble above the customer's head. And I'm thinking, I mean, I'm cringing in my seat, thinking, please let this end. And Fred just kept on a going. And while we finished the call, it was still a good, you know, he's still a he was still a good customer, but we walked out of there and you know, it just was an example where he he tried to pull him or or pass himself off as having some expertise, which he didn't. And it really was horrible. So awkward. Yeah, totally awkward. So we left there, and um, you know, there were some of those non-verbal, those glances with the plant manager of, yep, yep, I know, I get it. He didn't know what he was talking about, and I apologize for that. So in that same trip, we were going to have dinner with another customer. Now, this is a big customer down in Chicago, and this customer, we're gonna call him Bob. Bob never wanted to meet at his office. Bob was a really high-level purchasing dude. He dealt with tens of millions of dollars of product that were shipped and distributed around the country. We had a segment of his business, and he was very, very consistent in providing us with work. But all we had to do was this. We would meet him at his favorite restaurant outside of the outside of the city. We would sit at the bar, have a drink, we would have dinner, and then we would go to the piano bar, have another drink. And all we had to do, and I told Fred this beforehand, four things we need to talk about. That's it. Just four things. Number one are his race horses. Number two, he loves to sail, and I know he takes a couple of sailing trips a year. Three, he's gonna get married, so let's just check in on his fiance, what's going on with those plants? And he loved to go to Vegas, he loved, he loved casinos. So I laid the groundwork and we go in there, we meet him at the bar, and we're having a drink. And I said to Bob, I said, Hey, so what's going on with the horses? How's everything going? And he started to explain. He was actually looking for a new trainer, and then all of a sudden, Fred just launched into, oh, horses, horses, I'll tell you about horses. You want to know about horses? Well, you know, I lived in Louisville for a long time and I can tell you all about horses. Now, I'm sure he went to Churchill Downs, I'm sure he's seen a horse in his life. He's never owned them, he's never trained them. And I mean, cut cut the client off right there. And so I always tried to direct it back to the customer, to Bob. And we wrap up our drink, we go to get our table, and this was the sort of, he was a regular there. So this was the sort of scenario where the chef would come out and see him. I mean, this was a big deal. So it was all about the customer. And so we're sitting at dinner and I bring up uh sailing trips. You know, what's going on? Tell me about what's happening. And he said, well, you know, his fiance and he were um, you know, renting this boat, or they were gonna be getting some friends and crewing on this, you know, 44-foot or 54-foot sailboat. And all of a sudden, again, Fred, oh, sailboats, sailboats, you want to know about sailboats. I'll tell you all about sailboats and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it was horrible. And and it was so awkward. And I was scared that he was gonna say something about his fiancé. And it's like, you know, Fred, don't push it that far because you know, you don't know the woman, and this is gonna get super awkward. So then we go to the piano bar and um have a and I mean it's it's been a nice enough evening, but clearly we we've we've taken the wrong approach here, and Fred is not paying attention and and not, you know, staying within the guardrails that I provided. And then we're sitting at the bar and order drinks, and they had this cool little trio, piano player and a drummer and a uh sax player or whatever, and just great. And we ordered drinks, and I said, So what's what's up? Any trips to Vegas planned? And I mean, Bob didn't even have a chance to respond. And Fred's like, Oh, hey, you know what? We have this new uh casino boat that's been put on our a river right near our city, and you know, we've been going over there and doing this stuff. And then Fred says, Hey, excuse me, I need to use the men's room. So he stands up and he leaves to go use the men's room, and Bob leans over to me, I mean like real close and says, You don't ever have to bring him back again. Wow. And that was like, oh my gosh. And I just nodded and I said, Understood. Um and I simply said, Listen, you know, you know, I I I always appreciate the chance to get together. And while this may not have been the greatest experience, it's still good to see you. Well, Fred comes back, we finish up, you know, Bob takes off. Um, and you know, I would see Bob every every month. And so Fred, we get done, he goes, Hey, I thought that went really well. Oh, wow. Yeah, I thought that was great. He's a great guy. Yes, that's true. No, it went horribly. Um you totally took the conversation away from him. And uh he said, How often do you see him? And I was a total coward. And I said, Oh, I don't know, every you know, six, eight weeks or so. It's it's kind of sporadic, and it wasn't sporadic at all. I mean, we it was like clockwork with with Bob. And he goes, Oh man, I'd love to come back and do that again. That was that was super great. He's a great client and uh you got a great relationship with him, and I never took him back there again. I I I wussed out, I totally did. Yeah, but um, yeah, it was super awkward. Go ahead.
Sara Best:Yeah, well, when you say you wuss out, you had a moment of truth, uh, a truth moment there where you could have said, hey, Fred, you know, contrary to how you think it went, here's how it really went down.
John Broer:Absolutely. Yeah.
Sara Best:Dopted out. Let me ask you this, John. When you when you think about Fred, and you know, we we're not here to assassinate characters or, you know, um discredit people in any way. We're we're here to try to better understand what could be blind spots, what could be gaps in ability, for example, that that any leader can learn from, and certainly we can each learn from. So what do you think Fred's issues were? Like what's Fred's deal? What made Fred such a bosshole?
John Broer:Um well, okay, so when I got into management and and then subsequent subsequently when I started to train and develop managers and leaders, one of the things I always said is, look, as a as a manager, you need to be an asset to your direct reports, not a liability. And so I I don't know if he just didn't pay attention to the guidance that I provided or the direction that the call was supposed to take. Um I don't know if if there was this need for him to constantly vocalize and sort of take over the topics. I I have no idea. You know, this guy, this guy was not a he's not a he wasn't a rookie. I mean, he was he had sales experience, but um I don't know how successful he was, especially when I got to see him um really make the call and the meeting about himself rather than the customer. So I think that he is maybe there was um he didn't uh trust or listen to the guidance of his salesperson. He he made more statements than he asked questions. And I think I think for anybody that's a really that's a telltale sign of I would say maybe um a lack of professionalism or or sales or business acumen.
Sara Best:Yeah. Well, and I think about when we see challenging performance, it's really comes down to an issue of motivation or ability. Right. And there's complexity within each of those. But you know, there's the briefcase, like, you know, do we have the professional experience and knowledge in the briefcase to to be in appropriate conversation with direct reports and clients, etc.? Um and and to me, it sounds like if if we were to sort of diagnose his reference profile, he's highly independent, uh task focused, perhaps. Um this is not part of PI, but we would say ego syntonic. So he kind of sees the world through his experience. And uh to me, that's it's just a colossal lack of self-awareness. And it it would be a testament to the research I know that that we've read that indicates self-awareness is really the the number one sought-after characteristic for effective leadership. You have to kind of know yourself, and then it allows you to be aware of what's happening with your audience. So self-awareness and emotional expression lend themselves to better empathy. And we're not talking about the touchy-feely kind of empathy, but it's it's the tactical read of wow, our client looks highly disenchanted at this moment, or my direct report is squirming in his seat. And I wonder if I'm venturing into territory that's not appropriate, for example. So that's that was really challenging. And you know, one of the questions we always like to ask our participants is, you know, how did you manage the situation? You kind of already answered that. You know, you proceeded on in your relationship with your client, you didn't necessarily take the opportunity to to level set with Fred and say, that was horrible, and I never want to have that happen again. But I do have a question for you, John. Given your high degree of dominance, your high degree of extroversion, your lower patience and your lower formality, what would you say, you know, you you may have contributed to the the the gravity of the situation, meaning how you interpreted it? Like it it was bad for you, but the way you looked at it, the way you experienced it, what do you think made that worse for you because of your reference profile? Any thoughts on that?
John Broer:Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think my need for control and to really have a bit more influence over the situation was completely challenged. I I felt completely helpless with the with well, him making statements that were or using words that were completely or terminology that was completely wrong. I mean, you know, and in front of a customer who knew better and then taking over the conversation, there was no way that I could really draw that back without I didn't want to embarrass him.
Sara Best:Right.
John Broer:That would have been yeah. Um but I can assure you, I think the way I took control afterward was I just never permitted him to come back and travel with me. Because now I I'm not saying that that's good. You know, I I can assure you that it served as a great example for me when I eventually moved into management because I I ended up taking his job. He got he got moved to another division that was that ultimately got sort of abandoned by the organization. I took over his job, but it was a great learning experience for me.
Sara Best:Right. Oh, for sure.
John Broer:Because I always wanted to make sure I s I, as a leader, when I had a when I took over the that team, which is awkward, it's awkward to you know be promoted to manage your former peers, which I I'm not sure I ever think that that's a really good idea. I think that's a very but in small companies you may not have a choice. But I always wanted to make sure that I was an asset to them and not a roadblock. So we always would talk about what has to happen in this call, what does success look like ahead of time, and then debrief afterward, and and just they had the kind of we had the kind of relationship where they could be very blunt with me, but I just didn't want to become a roadblock or a liability for them. And yeah, I would, I would actually actually during the course of the year, they would evaluate me as perfor part of performance management, and I would say, how can I help you be more successful? Um, in what ways do I present uh you know a roadblock or a liability for you? Right. That was huge for me, but I never I didn't one that all gets back to trust. I did not have that kind of relationship with Fred. And I and of course, in your work with emotional intelligence or or or just the practices of high performing teams or high high highly functioning teams, trust has to be established early. And I we did not have that. I didn't trust that he had my I didn't trust that he had the expertise to do what I needed him to do, and I didn't trust that he had my best interest at heart because he just ended up talking about himself or making it about him. So it was a great learning experience, but a really awkward and um and and challenging one for sure.
Sara Best:Well, and thankfully you didn't lose a client over it because it sounded like that was put a potential outcome. I can't help but think about American Idol tryouts. You know, one of the favorite things I like to do in downtime is watch some of the videos of uh any of those singing shows, but in in in American Idol, they show you the reel of all the great tryouts, all the really bad ones. Right. And, you know, there's that person that shows up and they start singing, and you're thinking to yourself, how come no one has ever told them that they shouldn't be singing?
John Broer:They can't sing, that's right.
Sara Best:It's not their gifting.
John Broer:Right.
Sara Best:And I can't help but think of Fred, and my guess is you're not the only person who experienced that with Fred or found themselves in a situation where he almost blew it right because he's so focused on himself and so unaware of his awkwardness. But you know, then the question comes becomes why hasn't anybody told Fred, right, dude, you you need to stop doing that. You know, you're you're being a bosshole.
John Broer:Yeah, yeah, man. You're hurting, you're hurting our cause. So, so for me, I I think for any manager or supervisor listening to this, um go out of your way to make sure that you have a good and I would say, well, maybe Sarah, you have a better way of saying this, a trusting dialogue or healthy dialogue where you are willing to accept feedback even when it's not favorable. Because you you know, your job is to strengthen and equip and develop your direct reports. It's not about you anymore. Um, but in that effort, you're gonna grow yourself. But gosh almighty, have those conversations and don't become a roadblock. That was um and and and again, you know, my my role in this is that I didn't say anything, and that would have helped me grow and mature as a a professional. But yep, I took the easy way out. I was remote. I I just I just ignored as a request to come travel and weeded it out.
Sara Best:Well, but you know, at the end of the day here, we could take away uh some great tidbits uh to remember, especially those of us who are responsible for developing other people. I love John how you always say, hey, if you're a manager or leader and the number one item in your job description isn't developer of people, something is wrong. So I think it's a it's a nice reminder that people who are responsible for the performance and the effectiveness and the well-being of others, they need to they need to have that level of vulnerability to be able to receive candid feedback. And it's it's not necessarily all bad. No. But yeah, let's let's find out what people need more of from less more of from us and less of from us.
John Broer:Absolutely.
Sara Best:Good. Well done. Yeah. So well, John, thanks for helping us kick off uh the podcast series called The Bosshole Chronicles. We have many, many more stories to share. We've had some great interviews, many more to come. So we look forward to seeing you next time.
John Broer:Thanks, Sara. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of The Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the bossholechronicles.com. Again, mystory @the bossholechronicles.com. We'll see you next time.