TBC Flashback - Dr. Jeremy Pollack, "The Peacebuilding Leader" (Feb 2023)

Ever wish tough conversations didn’t spiral into stress and silence? We bring peace psychologist Dr. Jeremy Pollack back in this TBC Flashback to explore how leaders can turn friction into trust with a simple shift: care before solution. Instead of jumping to fixes, we practice reflective listening, validate what we hear, and slow our nervous systems so better options can emerge.

• Click HERE to access Dr. Pollack's LinkedIn profile
• Click HERE for the Pollack Peacebuilding Systems
• Click HERE to purchase Dr. Pollack's book Conflict Resolution Playbook

Listen to these related TBC episodes:

• Dr. Amy Edmondson - The Fearless Organization
• Sara and John - Above the Line, Below the Line
• Ben Snyder - A Less Bosshole® Way to Live

HERE ARE MORE RESOURCES FROM REAL GOOD VENTURES:

Never miss a good opportunity to learn from a bad boss...

Click HERE to get your very own Reference Profile.  We use The Predictive Index as our analytics platform so you know it's validated and reliable.  Your Reference Profile informs you of your needs, behaviors, and the nuances of what we call your Behavioral DNA.  It also explains your work style, your strengths, and even the common traps in which you may find yourself.  It's a great tool to share with friends, family, and co-workers.

Follow us on Instagram HERE and make sure to share with your network!

Follow us on X HERE and make sure to share with your network!

Provide your feedback HERE, please!  We love to hear from our listeners and welcome your thoughts and ideas about how to improve the podcast and even suggest topics and ideas for future episodes.

Visit us at www.realgoodventures.com.  We are a Talent Optimization consultancy specializing in people and business execution analytics.  Real Good Ventures was founded by Sara Best and John Broer who are both Certified Talent Optimization Consultants with over 50 years of combined consulting and organizational performance experience.  Sara is also certified in EQi 2.0.  RGV is also a Certified Partner of Line-of-Sight, a powerful organizational health and execution platform.  RGV is known for its work in leadership development, executive coaching, and what we call organizational rebuild where we bring all our tools together to diagnose an organization's present state and how to grow toward a stronger future state. 

Transcript

Flashback And Guest Introduction

John Broer 0:05

A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there in The Bosshole Transformation Nation. This is your host, John Broer, and we're bringing to you this week a TBC flashback. It was almost three years ago. This month, as a matter of fact, we had a chance to meet Dr. Jeremy Pollock. He is a peace psychologist, and he was on to talk about becoming a peace-building leader. And I think this is a very relevant theme, and I wanted to bring it back out, bring it out from the archives, and keep it fresh. For the Boschal Transformation Nation, Dr. Pollock is a researcher. He studies cognitive, behavioral, and cultural patterns that tend to lead people into conflict or into peace. And this information is going to be absolutely essential as we build better workplaces. Let's jump in. Fossil Chronicles are brought to you by Real Good Ventures, a talent optimization firm helping organizations diagnose their most critical people and execution issues with world-class analytics. Make sure to check out all the resources in the show notes and be sure to follow us and share your feedback. Enjoy today's episode.

Dr. Pollack’s Background And Work

Sara Best 1:28

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeremy Pollock.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 1:31

Thanks for having me, Sara. Appreciate it. Hi, John.

Sara Best 1:33

Jeremy, let me tell our audience a little bit about you. And I think I'll just share too. How I came across you is through LinkedIn. And some of the information you posted really grabbed my attention because it was focused more on peace building. And peace is something I think we need a lot of in the world right now. So as I researched you, I found that you are an incredible author and you've built this whole entire system. Let me tell our audience about you. You're a social psychologist and a leader in the field of workplace conflict resolution and peace building. I love that word, peace building. You're the founder of Pollock Peace Building Systems, and that is, in fact, the largest workplace conflict resolution consulting firm in North America. You're a co-founder and a chairman of the Peaceful Leadership Institute, which hopefully we'll get to hear a little bit more about today, and the developer of the style and theory of peaceful leadership. And I know there are a lot of models out there. This happens to be one that I think will resonate quite a bit with our listeners. You're a coach, trainer, you're a mediator, an author, and you work with executives, employees from Fortune 500 companies and nonprofits and scope and size. You get around. You're working with a lot of clients, and you have authored most recently the conflict resolution playbook, which by the way, I picked up a couple months back and highly recommend to our listeners. When you hear the word playbook, you know, you think about, okay, these are things I can look at, remember, memorize. These are absolutely actionable ideas. And hopefully we'll unpack some of those today as well. But you're a PhD, um, you hold a PhD in psychology from Grand Canyon University, a master's degree in negotiation, conflict resolution, and peace building. I love that. There's a master's in peace building from California State University and a master's degree in evolutionary anthropology. That is fascinating from California State University, Fullerton. With that, um, Jeremy, gosh, thank you so much for joining us today and for being willing to share some of this peace building with us today.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 3:44

Yeah, happy to be here. Happy to happy to have these conversations. Love to have these conversations.

What Conflict Really Is

Sara Best 3:49

Well, and since we started out by talking about conflict and and this idea that, you know, everyone kind of understands that we have to have it, but you know, how do you do it without pain? I think even in the beginning of your book, you you talk about, hey, this is for anyone who's ever experienced the pain of conflict. Two questions for you there. One, can we do conflict without pain? And have you personally experienced something in the way of dealing with conflict that inspired you to move in the direction of peace building?

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 4:18

Yes, and yes. You know, I think the first question, I guess, depends on the way we define conflict. I think a lot of people, when we talk about conflict, what most people are talking about is what I might call, or what we might call in the field, protracted conflict or escalated conflict, conflict that's been going on for a long time. It's hasn't been resolved. And so now it's there's a lot of emotions tied up with it. Um, and uh you start to take sides and feel like this person is sort of being hostile or this group is hostile and and they're sort of your opponent and that sort of thing. And sometimes it's the case, it's true, and then sometimes, you know, it's it's a lot of perception. But um, but I think that's what most people think of when they think about conflict. Uh the truth is, is that we're we're always coming up to challenges every single day of our lives. Um, you know, we have each of us has a particular perspective or method or approach to doing things and achieving our goals and, you know, communicating, and we're gonna bump up against other people's perspectives or a little bit of friction or tension in this and that, you know, here and there. It's just gonna happen on a daily basis, and that's fine. It's just called like meeting challenges or being uh, I guess, confronted in some way with different perspectives. And really now it's a matter of, okay, how do I handle those situations? If I can handle those situations with honesty and clarity and transparency and calmness and understanding and compassion, if I can use some of those, some of those uh traits and and methods to to deal with friction, then I don't have to get into escalated or protracted conflict. And I can just get into these really momentary little conflicts and then resolve them quickly. And then if we discover, oh, there's something actually, there's sort of like a deal here, there's an impasse or something where I have a particular approach and you have another one and we're not seeing eye to eye. Well, then we can have a conversation, we can communicate, we can talk about it, we can try to think outside the box and get creative. So, but a lot of people aren't doing those sorts of things, unfortunately. They get very stuck in their own ways or in their own perceptions. They start to feel offended by other people's uh perceptions or or or approaches if it if it goes sort of contradicts their own. Um, and that that's what leads to what a lot of people would think of as conflict. So I do think that there's a way to deal with friction, tension, i.e., conflict, uh, without pain. But unfortunately, a lot of people are not um at least they don't have the skills, they haven't learned the skills to do it, which is unfortunate. I think, you know, one of our main uh subjects in school, in addition to like math and reading and writing, ought to be communication skills. You know, conflict management which lose conflict management. Yeah.

Sara Best 6:48

One of the things that really struck me right out in the book was what you describe as the fundamental yet challenging truth of conflict and peace psychology for that matter, is just simply that two people can have a completely different understanding of the same event or same experience or you know, two different ideas.

John Broer 7:06

Yeah.

Sara Best 7:07

So naturally they might conflict. You also talk about the friction, you know, as a as an incredible opportunity. So this is where skill building and and our ability, you know, to to develop some muscle to to respond in a different way makes sense. And I thank you for the distinction. That's our first takeaway for today, is you know, prolonged. Um what was that other word you use?

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 7:30

Prolonged escalated and protracted conflict. Yeah.

Sara Best 7:32

Protracted and escalated conflict, which I think is what what most of us are probably always reacting to because we've experienced it somewhere. We're talking about it.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 7:42

And it's painful. Yeah.

unknown 7:44

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 7:44

It is painful to have protracted, escalated conflict. It's painful. It's conflict that that goes unresolved for long periods of time. It builds stress in the nervous system, it builds stress in the body, it builds stress in the relationship, in the environment. I mean, there's all kinds of stress related to it. And that stress is very painful. So the more skills we learn to understand how to communicate ourselves out of tension, friction, et cetera, or at least communicate around friction in a healthy way or creative way, the better. And that's one of the main things that, I mean, I feel privileged to have gone to school learning conflict resolution. And I think a lot of the people that are that are in the field of peace building or conflict management, I think a lot of people were privileged to have a perspective on conflict, which sounds like conflict is not a problem. It's actually an opportunity. It's an opportunity for growth, an opportunity for creativity and innovation, kind of like what you mentioned in the beginning. Um, that's the way I think about it. So when something comes up, when a conflict comes up, um, my my goal is at least immediately to not look at it, go, oh, I hate this. I don't want to deal with this, I want to get away from this, I want to avoid it, I want to just, you know, get rid of it, push it down. Well, I don't want to do. Instead, my natural inclination, if I train myself enough, is to go, ah, look at this opportunity that arises. How great. Because now it gives me the opportunity to, whatever the situation is, to grow in this relationship I have with this person, to figure out some of the nuances about the relationship, or to grow in this company or with this particular project. It's obviously like bumping up against something for a reason. So it's it's it's that's the kind of perspective that I think is important as a foundation when we're training people to how to deal with conflict better.

Sara Best 9:27

What I love in your book, in the first portion of your book, you actually detail communication skills that directly help in in the way you're describing, that equip people. Do you want to say a quick word on on maybe a summary of a couple of those skills?

Care Before Solution

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 9:45

There's a number of different communication sequences that that I and my team teach uh relative to the type of problem people are dealing with. So, like if we're giving feedback to someone, or if we're de-escalating uh an emotional customer or emotional coworker, or we're self-regulating. I mean, there's different types of sequences that we use, but as a general rule across all the sequences or across all the techniques, what I'll say is that I look at conflict resolution or peacemaking in in two major buckets. The first bucket I would call care, and the second bucket I call solution. And so I have to be both care focused and solution focused when I'm trying to deal with conflict. So I never want, I almost never want to skip care and go straight to solution. If someone comes to me with a problem, like, hey, they come to me and they're saying, I've got an issue with this team member over here, I've got an issue with what you just did or what you just said. If I go straight to trying to solve their problem, a lot of times they won't feel like they're being listened to, like they're being heard. And maybe I'll get to like a quote unquote solution of the problem. Really, there's an underlying deeper need there that needs to get filled. And I'm skipping over that. And so the first thing that I have to do is I have to really care for the person, listen, empathize, have compassion and understanding if I can. And there's some techniques around that.

John Broer 11:00

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 11:01

A really simple technique is listen and repeat. It's also called validating or acknowledging, reflective listening. There's a lot of ways of uh a lot of names that we call that, but it's a really simple technique. It's like I listen to someone before I respond or defend or reject what they're saying. I I repeat back, I paraphrase back what they're saying. And just that little bit lets people feel heard, like, I'm actually getting heard here. And I use that as an opening to start caring for someone in that moment. And I put solution aside for just a moment. And then when I feel like they've they've said what they needed to say, they feel heard. I'm really there for them. They can feel that I'm being present with them. Then I move into, okay, so do you want to talk about a solution? Maybe they don't. Maybe they're not ready to talk about a solution. Maybe they just want to feel heard or something, you know. Uh maybe they don't need my advice or my opinion or anything like that. They just want to feel hurt. But but that, but so secondarily is the solution. That that's that's in the most case when we're talking about conflict that is potentially emotional or has something to do with the relationship or that could potentially damage the relationship, whether it's a work relationship or a personal relationship. Um you know, sometimes people have a problem that's really easy to solve. You solve it right away.

John Broer 12:14

Well, but if I may, Jeremy, I think, I think our listeners uh and I would say our potential bossholes out there. And when you think about the discipline, you're talking about a discipline of, well, first of all, changing the mindset that just because I may be in a leadership or a management role doesn't mean I have to solve this this moment.

Speaker 12:35

Right.

John Broer 12:35

It is an adaptation or a discipline to be able to say, I'm gonna take the solution and I'm not gonna believe be solutions focused. I really want to hear this person. I want to actively listen and truly try to internalize and understand this. For some of us, I'm including myself in this group, that is really hard to do. Um I am a horrible active listener. It's something I've had to work on all my career to really steal myself against jumping to a solution and I can fix this and stepping back because and I think the to extrapolate, but you also just by listening and and walking somebody through that, sometimes they resolve it on their own or it comes to a resolution. But I think that's really critical takeaway for our listeners out there that uh the discipline of pausing and focusing on caring is a huge first step, but can be very challenging for some of us.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 13:28

I think it's challenging for a lot of us. I think most of us don't learn that sort of communication approach. That's true. And especially for A-type personalities that, you know, people that are really used to getting things done. Um, my I'm included in that, uh had to really practice and learn it. And I still make mistakes for sure. You know, so I do my best, but it's it's not easy. So it's it is discipline for sure. Yeah.

Sara Best 13:52

Well, and we can't overlook the fact that a lot of people didn't receive that kind of care and listening, you know, when they were growing up. Exactly. They didn't receive that. Not in their cells. Yeah. You talk in your book about mental maps, and I think it behooves all of us in our adulthood, especially those who are responsible for the lives of others, you know, to kind of get in touch with what are those mental maps? What are those things that are kind of blindly running the show? And that that could be one of them. But, you know, I I didn't, I don't need that. You don't need that. Just do your job.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 14:22

I talk in the book, uh, and and this is a framework I use throughout my work is looking at the basic psychological needs of human beings, universal, yes, irreducible needs. And unfortunately, a lot of us grow up and we're those needs are not necessarily met by the people that are supposed to meet them, which are our primary caretakers. And so when they're not met, um, we look for other ways of getting them met. And unfortunately, those a lot of times become destructive and unhealthy, and then we don't know how to properly meet them in other people either. And so we have to learn that sort of thing when we when we grow up and we're become adults and hopefully do some therapy or some self-introspection or something like that.

Mental Maps And Core Needs

Sara Best 14:58

Yeah. I I do think you do a nice job in the book too, in a simple way of spelling out those needs, defining those needs, identity, safety, care, autonomy, growth, stimulation. But you know, for somebody who maybe doesn't want to dip their toe in the water of therapy just yet, I mean, all of us as adults need to become better acquainted with these core constructs. And so I think you do a nice job of laying that out in the book. And since you talked about care, that's such a nice segue into what I imagine is a building block for your peace, your peaceful leadership model uh and framework. Could we understand a little bit more about that?

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 15:36

Yeah, you know, so one thing, um, so my company, we we deal with a lot of and we we do a lot of interventions in company in other companies. We we we solely work in the workplace and organizations that are dealing with conflict. And we do a lot of training and coaching and different types of interventions. And one of the main things that we see in terms of, you know, uh just a theme across companies that are having problems is they have leaders that are not well trained in conflict management skills or communication skills. I mean, when conflicts are allowed to emerge in companies or in or in team in teams of any sort, and they're allowed to just uh persist and no one takes care of them, typically that's a leadership issue. And so we find that it's a lead. So we developed this model called peaceful leadership, which builds on some of the more uh sort of traditional models of you know, servant leadership, coaching leadership, transforming transformational leadership. But we really focused it through some of the critical skills that we thought that we saw were important, that we've done a lot of training uh for leaders on um when it comes to conflict management and communication skills related to conflict management. So peaceful leadership, real I mean, so the way that we the we frame it is we've we want to meet the basic psychological needs of our workforce, of our teams. We want to get those needs met. How do we do that? Um the we we establish three core pillars, and we call these pillars psychological safety, employee trust, and inclusion. And so those three pillars, and those three pillars are talked about a lot, and there's there's a lot of research in into those three psychocultural uh structures. Um but how do we how do we create a company where it's psychologically safe, i.e., people can make mistakes, they can be themselves, all without the fear of being humiliated and shamed and stuff like that. How do we create an environment that where people feel included in decisions that are going to affect them? Included in and feel like it's transparent when companies are making decisions that are affecting them. And how do we how do we create environments where people feel like they can trust each other? They can trust their bosses, the bosses can trust their teams, and coworkers can trust each other. How do we how do we foster those types of relationships and that type of dynamic in an organizational system? And so that's that was the question that we started with in terms of building a model. And we came up with this acronym that uses PECE as an acronym. So it's patience, engagement, curiosity, uh, sorry, patience, engagement, appreciation, curiosity, and empowerment. And those five competencies are the things that we use to build the model around in terms of uh getting leaders to feel competent in those areas, giving them practical skills to empower people, to stay curious, to appreciate people, to do all those things that really establish those core psycho psychocultural pillars, which ultimately serve the psychological needs of their workforce. I hope I explain that in some way that makes sense. But yeah, so that the model is these three pillars with these five competencies around it, and then skills that that support that.

The Peaceful Leadership Model

Sara Best 18:36

Gosh, you know, my only hope would be that, you know, all leaders who who grow and develop themselves and go through training, you know, that this this kind of development, this skill development as as essential as reading a spreadsheet and, you know, understanding financial projections and all the other things that are core to, you know, running a successful business, this part is as important, if not more.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 19:02

Yeah. It's it's one of the major issues we see when we come into companies is people are either hired or promoted into leadership positions, and no one trains them how to be a leader. They think that because they're technically good at their jobs, they could be promoted. And, you know, but but but now they don't realize, okay, now you're in a leadership position. You're not an individual contributor anymore. Now you're managing a team or leading a team. 50% of your role is no longer what you used to do. It's now supporting and managing and serving a team. And you need to have the skills to do that. And they're just not trained in it, you know. So I'm that, and that's one of the major reasons we developed a leadership development training program because they need to get trained in how to properly lead people in ways that are productive, but also where they can manage conflict effectively.

John Broer 19:48

We uh we started out in 2022 with a very specific theme, and that was reinventing the role of the manager for that very reason. Um, I mean, we've spent the better part of a century codifying a really bad management framework. We really have. And that's why we get boss holes. And as we say, boss holes beget boss holes. But our listeners, Jeremy, will will hear what you're saying about the the challenge of taking a great individual contributor and the assumption, the fallacy that somehow magically this person is going to be able to develop other people. It just doesn't happen. And so the organizations have to commit to that. But what I hear you also saying, and I would imagine this is part of what happens in the uh Peaceful Leaders Academy, is you are giving them a different way to enter into or completely change the way they think about what it means to be a leader and the tools that they should be applying.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 20:43

Yeah, absolutely.

unknown 20:45

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 20:45

I mean, I don't think when they get promoted, they no in a lot of companies, no one emphasizes how important it is that they have to shift their framework now in terms of what their role is, what their job is.

John Broer 20:57

Right.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 20:57

You're here now to, and a lot of people don't understand. I mean, you know, there's I listen, there's there's different approaches to leadership. My particular paradigm, I'm sure I share with you two, is uh I'm here to serve my team, I'm here to support my team. That's my major role. Like I I've got I've got my list of tasks that I'm going through every day as a CEO of my company. I'm trying to get things done. But when I deal with my team, I I give them the vision and I trust them to carry it out. And I have to, and my whole job then is to support them in doing that. And if they need something, of course, I'm here. But otherwise, I'm just here to serve, support. How can I help you? I I I'm constantly trying to ask, um, what can I do for you? Where can I, where can I improve? Is there anything you need from me? Is there anything different that I should be doing as your as your leader? Um and I and I almost, you know, even though there is a hierarchy uh in my company and at other companies, I almost think of it like a lateral company. Like I really think of everybody that I work with as a colleague. You know, I don't think of me as like the boss. You know, so um I'm just in my major roles, like I'm I'm the I'm basically instead of CEO, maybe I'm like the chief wellness officer. I'm just here to make sure everybody's doing well, you know.

Sara Best 22:10

Man, you're like the opposite of a boss hole. The absolute opposite. It's really refreshing to hear you say all that.

John Broer 22:16

So it'll be the opposite of it. That's the opposite word. We gotta figure out what that is. Yeah. And we haven't we haven't figured that out. Yeah. And we will be right back.

Announcer 22:32

With employee disengagement at its highest level in nine years, your company can't afford to miss the mark when it comes to optimizing your hiring, management, and team performance practices. At its lowest level, employee turnover costs you eleven thousand dollars per person. And those are dollars you can easily save with the right set of people analytics. Real Good Ventures is a talent optimization consultancy specializing in world-class analytics, specific to your people and the critical role they play within your organization. Gain confidence in your hiring practices, keep the boss goals from driving your talent away. Design your teams for flawless execution and create a culture that offers meaning and fulfillment. Real Good Ventures has a family of validated diagnostic tools specific to the human aspect of business because we know that all business issues are people issues. Visit us today at www.realgoodventures.com and bring meaning and fulfillment back into your workplace.

John Broer 23:39

Okay, let's get back to the program. Just really quick, on the on the Peaceful Leaders Academy, what does that look like? I'm just kind of curious about that. Is that would do you is it an in-person sort of thing? Is it virtual? Is it both? How does how does somebody get by the way? To all of our listeners, check out the show notes. You are going to find all of Jeremy's information and resources in there. Just want to make sure that they have all the resources. But tell us a little bit about the academy itself.

Training Leaders Who Weren’t Trained

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 24:05

Yeah. So, well, so Pollock Peace Building Systems is sort of our parent company. And we do a lot of uh in-person and virtual custom instructor-led training uh through that. What we realized was there's some companies that really want to scale with us and want to do it on an ongoing basis. And so we what we did was we put together our based on our model of leadership, um, a bunch of critical skills. There's something like uh 20 different modules within each of the competencies within uh across six competencies. And we put together uh a whole learning management system. So it is an asynchronous, uh pre-recorded training program with live coach-led coaching sessions. So we reinforce them with coaching sessions. So when someone comes in the Peaceful Years Academy, they get access to their portal, they go into their training program, they go through their modules. There's all kinds of activities that they need to fill out in order to go to the next module. And those are like sort of implementations, like, hey, go do this in your organization this week, come back, write about how this went. And then we have uh coaching sessions every week, and they get to do an unlimited coaching. So they can come to two, three coaching sessions a week if they want, um, and it reinforces all the training. So we really like to do this combination of training with coaching uh and and so we can reinforce some of those skills. So and everything's done virtually in the Beastful Leaders Academy.

John Broer 25:25

Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, that sounds like whatever. I I mean, you're hitting all the key points, the key channels for learning and and interaction and connection. That's awesome.

Sara Best 25:35

I'm just curious, too, if if you have maybe not from the virtual learning, but I'm sure you've you continue to do extensive work inside organizations with chief leaders. Maybe a story comes to mind where you know, a leader uh had an epiphany and and was able to demonstrate some new skill and help resolve conflict.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 25:55

That's kind of putting you on the spot there, but yeah, and I mean, uh the the epi the epiphanies are, I guess, few and far between. I mean, sometimes it seems like they have an epiphany, but you know, it's it's hard to change behavior overnight. So people sometimes they will have an epiphany, but it will take some time and practice and discipline to change behavior. You know, one story that I uh I I like to refer to because I just remember it it was a moment like that. Um, it was one of my first jobs as a peace builder when I was working with these two executives, and they're both female, and uh one was I think the CEO, and the other one was the sort of second in command, like vice president, and they just they weren't talking much anymore because they had been going through so many conflicts and tensions. And um, I talked to both of them, and and what it turned out to, and this is this is the the kind this kind of situation was um ideal because what they both said were was, I really respect the other person and I do really care about them, and I think they're really good at their jobs. Like those, those three things, I care about them, I respect them, I have they're really good at their jobs. If I if that's true, a lot sometimes it's not. Sometimes people are saying, I don't think they're good at their jobs, or I don't, I just don't respect them, or something like that. And that's a did that's that's a tougher thing. But when they're when they're both saying that, I know I can get them into a room and it just takes them to bring bring down their walls a little bit.

John Broer 27:17

Sure.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 27:17

Um, and so we we came into the room and um I asked each of them to tell the other person, you know, basically tell them, tell the other person what you think about them, that that you care about them, what you admire about them, that those kinds of questions.

John Broer 27:34

Yeah.

Peaceful Leaders Academy Explained

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 27:34

And when one, when the CEO did that and the other person, uh the vice president heard it, her, you could see her garbage come down, and she all of a sudden, and these were two like very A-type kind of personalities, they were at it for at least a year with each other, like really not communicating. She just broke down crying in the session, just hearing that her boss actually thinks this about her, that she actually thinks that she's great at her job and that she really does care about her and she misses talking to her and those sorts of things. I'm like, well, you know, and as soon as that happened, her guard came down, her wall came down, and she was able to say the same thing to the other. Now that that doesn't always happen. That's that's kind of a rare case in my experience, but it was such a great moment because it really showed the power of care. It showed the power of I get into this situation, so many people are in conflict over time because, and as a result of they have this perception that the other person or group really doesn't care about them.

Sara Best 28:33

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 28:34

And when they get to know, whoa, they really do care about me, their guard comes down and they get to a place where they can stop being defensive and they can get to a place where they can actually start talking creatively about solutions. And you you could take this out of the workplace. I mean, this is true in personal life, this is true in social life. If you look at groups, you know, talk about, you know, conservative versus liberal, whatever, you know, these types of groups, the one group perceives the other to either not care about them at all or their needs at all, and or actually are actively trying to suppress, threaten, impede my needs from being met. That's the perception. And if you were to actually realize, whoa, if you were to talk to someone on the other side and to actually realize, whoa, I actually, they actually really do care about me. We have totally different perspective perspectives that they really do care about me. The the guard would drop and you'd be able to actually have a solution like a creative conversation at that point. So the care thing is is huge.

Sara Best 29:33

I was just gonna say, it seems like it's very much at the center of all of this.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 29:37

Think, yeah, think about it. If you if you think about it for yourself, if you think about if there's whatever your ideological persuasions are, whether from a religious perspective, a social social justice, whatever they are, if you have a particular idea and you think that other group over there, they're crazy, they're ignorant, they're evil, whatever you think about them. And if you have to sat down in a room with one one of those people with that pre-judgment, and that person was to say to you, I'll be honest with you, I really care about you. And I really care about you being happy and being safe, be get you know, having being healthy. And I want what's best for you. I really do. And you but and you believed it, and they were being honest, and you believed it. The whole perception of that person would would the the the pre-judgment based on what group they are would it would just go out the window, right? I mean, and you would be able to say that probably the same thing to them. So it's care is a really big opener.

Sara Best 30:30

What's so cool is as you described that happening, I was thinking of the person who would be sitting across the table from me, and I was imagining them saying that to me, and I was like, wow. Just kind of felt myself release, you know, and breathe in.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 30:44

There's a there's a very interesting cognitive bias called hostile attribution error. And it's a really well-studied bias. And and basically it's you get into conflict with someone or or you have some tension or you have even one really negative experience with someone or or someone who represents a group to you.

John Broer 31:00

Yeah.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 31:01

And you will start attributing hostility to their behaviors. You will stop, you'll start thinking that their intentions are hostile, even though they might not be. And then you'll think that until somehow it's broken. So if you got into a situation where you could have a conversation with them and they could actually really convince you that, hey, I am the opposite of hostile to you. I care about you. I actually want what's best for you. I just have a particular perspective that to you it seems like that's not going to get you what's best for you. But I think that what I what my perspective and my approach, I think that is what's best for you. But we just have different. So let's talk about it. Let's figure out because I really do care about you. I mean, it would totally change your perception of the person from hostile to actually caring. And that's what we want to get to.

Sara Best 31:44

Yeah, that sure makes a ton of sense. As we uh kind of near the end of our time together, I I was really struck by your thoughts about resentment and how to let go of resentment. I heard the definition of resentment some time ago as, you know, it's like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.

John Broer 32:02

Yeah.

Sara Best 32:03

Resentment is something that hurts you and and maybe inconsequential for the other person. It's a lot of ugliness. But you do have some thoughts in the book about, you know, ways to let go of resentment. Would you mind expounding on those a little bit for our listeners?

A Breakthrough Mediation Story

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 32:18

Yeah, there's a couple of techniques in there, but what you know, what I think as a foundation for in terms of resentment, the idea of resentment, um, one one common theme that I've when I've worked with people who hold on to resentment, grudges, they're keeping someone on the hook. And they're and it stresses them out, it makes them angry. The other person, who knows if the other person even cares at all? You know, in some in some cases, it's a person that's no longer with us. So it doesn't matter at all to them. It's just to this person. And I and I ask them, what what would be scary about letting go of resentment? What's scary about that? And their fear is, well, then um, it's something along the lines of, well, then they get to win. Like it's like letting them off the hook. Then I'm no longer punishing them. I'm they get to win or something like that. And in the meantime, it's like, that's okay. If we can look at this realistically, they it has nothing to do with them. Like that's right. Sometimes that person's not even with us anymore. Like that person's gone. Like it, they there's no way for them to win or lose or anything, you know? So it's just there's perception. So what would it take to, you know, what would it take to stop resenting? And um, if we talk about change at any level, change at the individual level, change at the organizational level, it's really about how do we get someone motivated to change? It's hard to change. So, what would be motivating? What would what would uh be the catalyst? A lot of times if we wouldn't bring it back to someone and say, hey, how does resentment make you feel? Well, I feel stressed out. I feel uh the hatred in me is just burning me up. I I don't want to feel it really, but how would I let it go? They're gonna, I'm gonna let them off the hook. They're gonna win if I let it go. So, okay, but forget them for a second. You're telling me that this is burning you up inside, that you're stressed out. Aren't you worth it? Aren't you isn't it worth you winning? Isn't it worth you get letting letting yourself off the hook? I mean, that's really what we're talking about here. And trying to get them to understand that is a is, I think, a first step in terms in terms of getting motivated. Otherwise, techniques and all methods, they're not gonna work. The person has to be motivated to say, you know what, I realize resentment is getting me nowhere. What I need to do for myself is learn from whatever that situation is. Maybe I write down my my lessons that I learned from it so I don't forget.

Sara Best 34:32

Right.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 34:32

And now it's time to let go, really. I mean, it's it's it's it's time to let go, finally. And then if you're ready to do that, then we can do some some techniques.

Sara Best 34:41

Well, I think for anybody who's a human being, there's there's gotta be resentment somewhere in your life. And if if there is, and you would like to explore a way to release it, there are a couple really easy, okay, easy. It's probably I probably shouldn't use that word, but there are there are some techniques that I think are user-friendly and and the direction is very clear. And it doesn't even need to involve the other person. One does, but the other one doesn't at all. Yeah.

John Broer 35:06

The grip that it has on people um and they harbor that for so long, it's it's sad to see, but but I think to your point, Jeremy, it's um in our world, we you know, we talk about behavioral DNA and how people are wired. And and that doesn't mean you can't adapt. A word we use a lot is adaptation or or learning skills or techniques or seeking help to be able to reconcile and understanding why I am harboring this resentment. Whatever it is, life is just way too short to be fuming and fomenting about that for a long time. But there are people that do harbor that. And it just seems like, to your point, Jeremy, where you were talking about if if there is a if I see a person and I know they're associated with another group of people or another ideology or whatever it is, it's so easy, it seems easier today to automatically throw that barrier or throw up that wall. Yeah and we create, we manifest this conflict, having never had a conversation with another person or a group of people. But once you do, you realize, oh my gosh, we are actually a lot closer in the way we think about things or care about things just by having that conversation. But but so much time and relationship is wasted because we don't.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 36:32

At even a deeper level, when we talk about letting go of resentment, letting go of hostility, letting go of those kinds of perceptions of other people. Uh, there's a lot of people, unfortunately, that um on a very deep level don't feel that they themselves deserve to feel joy, deserve to feel peace, deserve to be uh in a good world and have a good life. Like there's some fundamental part of them that doesn't feel they deserve that. And that, you know, peace, peace, external, interpersonal peace, it it has to start internally. It has to start with a person who works on being at peace with themselves. And a lot of people just aren't at peace with themselves and they don't think they deserve to be at peace with themselves. So that has to be worked on too, I think. That's true. That's sad.

Sara Best 37:19

What a powerful point. I hope people kind of stop and and have a moment of reflection on that. Because that's not something that's easy to get conscious to or conscious of.

John Broer 37:28

No, it's not.

Hostile Attribution And Building Care

Sara Best 37:29

And I think it does affect a lot of us. I I wanted, you know, I like to, I'm a persuader by design. So I like to sell people on things, but I really think your book is a great leadership book. You know, it it outlines and and I think anything related to peace building in a in a peace, peaceful leadership framework is something any aspiring manager or leader or supervisor should um, you know, seek to learn about. Because I think this is the I'm looking at just even the chapter titles in your book. These are the questions. If you flipped them around, they're the challenges and the questions that people come to us and say, I don't know how to do that. I remember reading a story in the book. Um, somebody was overlooked for a promotion and they're dealing now with the person who got the promotion over them. I see that we hear about that all the time. And nobody will come right out and say, gosh, the person who got overlooked is kind of having an attitude about it and they're being difficult and they're resentful. But these are things that people deal with every single day. And I just think it's a great straightforward, um, user-friendly guide for anybody who now is finds himself in a position of responsibility over the performance and the well-being of others.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 38:43

So Yeah, I even even for people that are family members. I mean, the leader of a family, the head of household, or or the the two parents in a household, like anybody who wants to have better interpersonal relationships. I even, you know, in intrapersonal, intrapsychic relationships with themselves. I think you could use some of these techniques for your out for yourself, you know?

Sara Best 39:05

Such good stuff. Um, so our listeners can find you. There's a number of websites, coach JeremyPollock.com, Pollock Beast Building. So John mentioned that we'll place all those things as links in our show notes along with a link to the purchase the book. Can you share with us like what's coming up next for you and your company? What's on the horizon for you?

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 39:26

Yeah, you know, we we just launched, I'm excited, we just launched a new subsidiary called the Fractional Chief Wellness Officer. Um and so we are now uh offering clients that we work with um part-time chief well-being officer that's kind of embedded into their culture on an ongoing basis, so that not only do we want to train their leaders, but we can have an expert come in and kind of work with a company now to help establish some of the uh some of the sociocultural pillars that are important for wellness and engagement in a company. So that that's something I'm excited about.

Sara Best 40:00

I think there's a strong demand for that. And we have factional CFOs, CEOs, why not cheap wellness officers? What a what a great investment.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 40:09

Yeah. So that's something I'm excited about.

Sara Best 40:11

No, that's great.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 40:12

Well, oh, and we're my my colleagues and I who who co-developed the peaceful leadership model were uh coming out with a book. Hopefully by March it should be published. So it's called Peaceful Leadership. It's a book on on peaceful leadership theory.

John Broer 40:25

Wonderful. And maybe you'll come back and we'll showcase the book. That'd be awesome.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 40:30

Yeah, that'd be great. Maybe I can I can bring my co-authors on with them. Perfect.

Sara Best 40:34

Well, Jeremy, Dr. Pollock, if I may, you are um you are a treat. You you I think offer something very, very needed and very powerful. Appreciate your time today.

Dr. Jeremy Pollack 40:44

Sarah, John, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.

John Broer 40:46

All right, everybody, check those show notes, and we'll see you next time on the Bosshole Chronicles. Thanks very much for checking out this episode of the Bosshole Chronicles. It was so good to have you here. And if you have your own Bosshole story that you want to share with the Bosshole Transformation Nation, just reach out. You can email us at mystory at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. Again, my story at the Bosshole Chronicles.com. We'll see you next time.