House of the Dragon, Season 3 Episode 4: Tumbleton

This week we discuss Episode 4 of House of the Dragon, the second plot-building episode in a row, the payoff later is going to be worth it.

We finally meet Alicent's youngest son Daeron (the real one this time) and dig into his complicated relationship with Ormund. Ormund, btw, is hilarious with his smell sensitivity — something we don't think we've seen in any media before. But underneath the comedy there's something darker going on with him, and Josh and Jeff get into the psychology of it: the control, fear, and the way obedience works between the two of them

 We also kick things off somewhere unexpected: the Bayeux Tapestry — an actual medieval artifact made for William the Conqueror in the 11th century depicting the lead-up to the Battle of Hastings, as well as depicting the battle itself. We think the show's intro is directly emulating the tapestry in its depiction of Targaryen history. 

Plus: Daemon has an interesting meeting with Sheepstealer and his daughter Rhaena, a debate we thought might be avoidable. 

There are small moments between Rhaenyra and Alicent this episode that are deeply sad in so many ways. And Rhaenyra seems to be making several wrong choices that we dissect them all this episode.

Perfect for fans craving layered storytelling, character depth, and the psychology behind power, this episode unpacks what’s really at stake in the war of the Targaryens. It's a masterclass in tension, manipulation, and the cost of ambition.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Too Much TV. Today we're talking about House of the Dragon, season three, episode four, Tumbleton. I thought it was Tumbletown, because I thought that would make more sense. Me too. But it is Tumbleton. But before we get started, Jeff, I wanted to talk to you about something real quick. I mean, you said in an earlier episode that you skip the beginning, the intro. Is that still true, or do you kind of watch it now? No, per your advice, I started watching it. Okay. And like when you see it, it's like this sort of flowing tapestry, right? Like where they kind of are sewing it as it goes on and it's the threads are all getting connected. Yeah. And it describes the events of the history behind House of the Dragon. What I thought was really, really cool, or what I think it is, I think it's based on some real historical or a real historical tapestry called the Bayou Tapestry, and I told you to look this up because it's right here in front of you. Doesn't it kind of look the same? A little bit? A little bit, yeah. You can see the inspiration. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was gonna say inspiration for sure. Yeah. Yes. So a quick quick thing about that is um uh uh William the Conqueror, he he fights Harold Hodrada. No, not Harold Hodrada, different Harold. There's two Harolds here. He fights Harold, King of England, he kills him at the Battle of Hastings, and this tapestry was probably given to him as a gift. And we still have it. And if I'm looking at it right now, it's 230 feet long and 20 inches tall. Boy. So if you're on the Wikipedia page and you scroll down, you can see it in its like the entire length of it. Are you looking at that? Isn't that wild? It's long as fuck. Yeah, it's long as fuck, dude. You have to scroll. You have to scroll so far. And it's two sections. You have to scroll, it's two sections, yeah. But what's so cool is like this is the same thing. I don't know if you see at the beginning of the top part here, and anyone who's listening, look up the Bayou Tapestry. It's called it's spelled B-A-Y-E-U-X. But do you see like the ships there at the beginning of it? Sure, yeah. That's them crossing the English Channel to then fight the Battle of Hastings. So the the entire tapestry from left to right is explaining the events of this time period. Yeah. It's it's a really, really cool historical artifact. And I just think that's where they got the inspiration behind the intro, don't you think? Dude, you gotta be right.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah. Yeah. Because the way that it's telling the story, kind of like in chronological order, the same way this would if you were scrolling by. That's what the intro feels like, then. It's almost like you're scrolling by this as it's being created.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

And you know, you can't really tell who's who in when, or you can tell a little bit who's who's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

You can recognize scenes, but it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

It's like vague. And that's what this is kind of cool. Like historians have gone through this and they're like, uh, I think this is William. And it they spend like decades trying to figure it out. But anyway, I just thought that was a really interesting, sort of neat sort of historical connection behind this show. No, good catch. Good catch. I mean, we've noticed, we've noticed the historical elements behind this show and how it seems, how did I say it, history adjacent a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Um but uh let's get into the episode, right? And let's start with Ormond, who is starting to be I he's very odd. Is that how you would describe him?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, he's he's got more layers than I thought. Um can I now you've brought a really cool, fun historical fact. I'm gonna bring a much less cultured one, but it's a comparison. Have you watched Always Sunny? You've seen it. I've seen a couple episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know the character Dennis? Yeah, of course. Curly haired one. He reminds me so much of Ormond. Uh if you watch like their mannerisms and the weird, like particular nature about the way that they do things and the way that they talk kind of slowly and deliberately when they're being a little intense. I can't get it out of my head. Now that I've seen it, the scene where he's getting out of the bath, that's a dentist scene.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

It's about the implications.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Dude, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I can't, I can't unsee it. That is such a good comparison. Ormond is dentist. 100%. Like he totally has OCD. Yeah. Big time OCD.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

And he's a hypochondriac for sure. The smelling thing is strange. I've never quite I don't know what that is. I've actually never met anyone who has a thing like that.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Yeah, I don't know. It it does seem weird. They make a point multiple times in the episode to bring it up because Alison specifically says it to Reneira later on, but we even see him like sniffing it. What what is that? Like some kind of sense, some something maybe that's calming down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

It's got to be like a basil in there or something.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Rosemary. He's a weird guy. He definitely has some um some dynamic to his character that I don't think we saw. We're we're really getting into more of a of a of a strong introduction to him now. We're we're seeing behind the curtain a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Do you think, I mean, we've talked about like sociopath versus psychopath. Do you think he's somewhere in that realm? Because uh let's jump ahead a little bit with the scene with the sword and he hits the uh the table, and you know, he calls I he calls a cunt, right? Amen's not showing up. Yeah. So he's slam and if you notice, he looks at the piece of paper and then he slowly like puts it down, and the real Darren is like, get out. Just he just get out. Yeah. Like and he and he just like the step do you know the step back a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

It made that relationship seem quite maybe not perverse, but what's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_02 6:41

Well, it's really intimate. I mean, Darren knows him very well. Uh, and it you you know, if he's not healthy. No, if he grew up with this, he already knows the warning signs. That's what I feel like we're supposed to see. Darren has been exposed to uh Orman's behavior for long enough that he knows the warning signs and he knows how volatile he can be because he's like Allison said fatherly. That is what Allison said, but as a lot of these relationships goes, yeah, I'm like, uh, this there's something off about this this feel. Like throughout the episode, we see a couple different interactions between them where you're like, you just get that weird like vibe. It's something's off. It seems slightly abusive, or there's some sort of abuse because Darren seems so reluctant, kind of cautious, maybe is the better word. I think cautious is a great way to put it. I think if you've been exposed to that kind of temper before, and it might have spilled over into a little abuse towards Darren or just other people around. I mean, the fact that he's telling the uh the the servant boy, the what is he, a cupbearer? Cupbearer, sure. Yeah. Till to get out of there, it's like, okay, you could be in harm's way right now.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Uh that sword could be you instead of the table. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

So Darren might have seen some things along the way that make him cautious. Cautious is a good way of doing it.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

But then it's it's it's like odd though, because a lot of the advice that Ormond gave him in the episode is good advice. Like, it uh so it is slightly abusive, strange. It's both positive and negative.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, yeah. If we're if we're continuing along the Ormond uh arc that we kind of go through in this episode, there's the scene where he is dealing justice for the conflict that happens between his soldiers. Yes, and um Hammer, Hugh Hammer's uh I was really interested in that scene because at first when you watch it, didn't you kind of go, wait, is Ormond like a good dude? Like is Ormond like a ri is Ormond a good like ruler? Like is Ormond doing the right thing here and and putting down his own soldier for wrongdoing?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

And well, I had to look up what gelded meant.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah. I assumed, so please give me the the correct it's castration. Okay, that's well yeah, that was the assumption.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Uh but I was like, why why is it gelded instead just say castrate him? I I just didn't know why he used that word. But you know what it is? They do mention who says it, Gwen? Gwen, Allison's brother.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Says that he's like a stuffy cunt or something. He's a it's like a stuffy old snob.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Stiff-necked cunt or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Stiff-necked bitch or something. Yeah. And then Allison also said he's like a scholar. Or he he he characterizes himself. Thinks and scholar. Collects trap tapestries. Yeah. So maybe he gelded is the word he'd use that is the most sort of proper. Yeah. I guess. He's very interesting. He's very interesting and quickly becoming a fun player in this game. I'm really enjoying this. And that Darren is there, the real Darren. Question for you about Darren, by the way. Do you think his hair is dyed?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, I wondered about that because it's so brown. And it's like, but it looks like Alison's. It does. That's it's the same shade as Alison's. So it may have just been that he got that was the jeans. He got the brown hair.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

But then how why would Aegon and Amund have the blonde? I mean, I guess they kind of mess with this the whole time in the show, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

And I think even like if you look at kids nowadays, you can have three kids, three brothers who all have the same hair color and then one who doesn't, right? It's kind of the roll of the dice between pool kind of thing. So could have just been one of those, could have just been explained naturally. But um yeah, we can we can talk about Darren for a sec if you want. He's been an interesting character to kind of meet and and watch him obviously interacting with Orman, but he's got his own um sort of way of going about things. He's he seems to be pretty empathetic. Uh he's concerned for the the cupbearer. He sends him away. He he seems to have a pretty kind heart through a lot of what we see in the I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

He seems a little meek. Yeah. A little timid.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

I think he's how old is he? I think he's pretty I think he's pretty young still.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Uh 15, 16, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

And yeah. Uh been close under the wing of Orman. So I don't know how much he's gotten to really be his own person. I doubt known at all.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yeah. So he's Viserys and Alison's son and hasn't really known them at all. Did we have a scene where he was sent away? Is that season one or season two? I I think we did.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Uh I would guess one, but I don't know for sure, dude. I don't know for sure. I just do think we got a brief goodbye from Alison to him. He's pretty young.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Well, let's let's talk about Darren, obviously the end of the episode. We don't have we'll talk about that at the end. But let's talk about Alicent, because I don't know if you noticed this. You know, she's talking to Rhenira, and did you see her fumble or like fiddle with her cuticles on her fingers? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think that's uh the callback to season one that she's nervous, that she's like just anxious, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I think one of the first scenes that we see Alicent like in the show is her picking her fingernails when at the tournament, when she's concerned because uh Damon is uh asking her to give him the favor, like the thing that they put on the lance, right? And uh she knows that it's gonna piss off her dad behind her. And there's also different like political things that are being discussed, and she's kind of nervous and anxious, and right then you see her picking at her fingernails. And we don't see it very often after that, but we see it again here, so it's a good catch.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Well, she grows in confidence. I mean, I think she kind of that scene where she wears that green dress and she comes to the wedding. Yep, she definitely from that moment on seems to have a lot of her confidence. And I think right now, I mean, she's a prisoner in the Red Keep, she's at the lowest and most vulnerable she's been in a long time. And it's really up to Rhenira what happens to her. Also, her two sons are missing. Helena is hanging by a thread. Her granddaughter or is a gr yeah, granddaughter is there too. Right? Her father just died in basically in front of her. There's a lot of shit going on for her, and I can totally see why she's very, very anxious. Why do you think that she told Rhenira about Orman's like cleanliness, sensitive to smell thing?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah, I think it's a great question because I think she's supposed to be very conflicted in that scene. They make a point to have them both look out at the garden. And I don't know if you you may have seen these posts on social media, but they show that um it's the same scene where Reneer's head is on Allison's lap when she's reading to her. Uh they both sort of I believe so. And so there's the whole business of the conflicted friendship that they still have, that there are still some ties there, and I think they're sharing kind of a uh sentimental moment a little bit, at least in their shared trauma. And Rhenira says, you know, I would have spared him about Darren, right? So she's kind of it's not an olive branch because there's no way that that could exist anymore between them, but it's it's a little like a taste of one.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

It you know what it kind of reminds me of in a weird way. Like let's say you you you have a girlfriend for a long time, and you break up, and then you don't see them again for like 10 years, and then you see them again. Obviously, it's not going to really get back to what it used to, but there's that residual love that was there at one time, and it's just different now, and that's kind of sad. Every conversation that they have feels very sad.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah, because it feels like it's filled with like ghosts or artifacts, like it's just that's always a good way of putting it hanging there in the air through the whole conversation, even if they're like at odds, even if they're against each other. There's always that element of the affection, you know, the friendship that they had for each other for years. Because they were really close in season one. Really close.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yeah. And I think the moment that you asked about is almost like uh like a like a resurgence of that, a twilight feeling of that. Like it's it's kind of going away, but it's still there, it's still present. The French. Very reminiscent. Yeah, yes, reminiscent's a great word. So it's like you you're showing a little bit of understanding to me and and and mercy to my son. So I'm gonna give you a little little a little uh, I don't know, inside information. It's something because it's hard to even describe it since it doesn't necessarily do anything right away. You're like, what does that help?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

But then Does she say doesn't she say that Gwyn thought that Ormond was cruel? Yeah. So maybe there's a hint of like, I want my son, my last son, back. And at this point, she's basically given up on the other two. Yeah. For the most part, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Yeah, I think she probably thinks of Darren as being less like pure hope. Yeah. Like the other two Another Helena. Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Closer to Helena, where they might be more of a pure soul. Well, dude, let's talk about Helena real quick.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Because that scene, I don't know if this is me being a perv, but I noticed that like her breasts were like out in that scene with her mom. This is not the incest scene, but like, or there is no incest here, don't worry. But but like, I I don't know, I noticed a little bit of that. And I was like, okay, maybe this is Game of Thrones just being kind of weird, Game of Thrones. And I was like, oh, are they trying to emphasize the fact that they might be swollen and that her belly is a little swollen and she couldn't cover up? And yeah, she's pregnant. I think that's what they were going for.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But talk about another problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah, dude, they don't go away, they just keep piling up. They keep piling up. But I think the implication of that one are gonna be really interesting because I was gonna ask you about if she is pregnant, which I agree with you, I think she is. What's the timeline line up there for who the dad could be? I would assume it's Aegon. Okay, because I I'm I made a point to ask you about this because I'm not sure. I want to double check this, but I saw some fan theories flying around about Amund. Oh God.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Dude, Helena, dude, let let Helena sleep with anyone outside the family, dude. Let her be, dude. Just leave her alone. Why don't we just throw Darren in there next time? Like, like, let's just have a family four way and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Dude, this girl, I I feel so bad. Sweetest one. Yeah, the best one of them. And depending on where this goes, I don't know if they're right. I really do need to check the timeline there, but it's a little questionable because wasn't Eamon kind of getting weird with her like threatening her, but also kind of coming onto her.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I fucking hate Eamon. He pisses me off. Him and his fucking eye patch. God, makes me so mad. Because really, listen, listen. All right, we're gonna talk about Rhenira and how I kind of think no one deserves the throne, with the exception of Helena. I think Helena's the only one that deserves it. Yeah. And the only one that would be good at it. I think everyone else sucks. It's kind of weird. I I like the show a lot, but no one's very good at this. You know, I mean, I'll get into more details about that later, but yeah, no, Helena needs it. I I want her, I want my girl Helene to get it.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah. No, but you got a great point, and I think maybe that's part of the purpose, not the purpose of the show, but it's it's something that you notice throughout. It's like it takes a really special person to fill this position. There are not a lot of people who can handle the responsibilities.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

To be king or queen?

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Like, well, this is a good segue to then talk about Rhina, but go ahead. What were you saying?

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Go, no, yeah, let's let's cover her. Because I mean, that's a we get a more in-depth look again, you know, kind of following last episode. We we see some more of what she's dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I have a few things, a few criticisms again. Again, I like Rhaenera as a character. I think she's a very interesting character. Me too. I just don't think she gets it. Maybe. Were there more scenes that bugged you in this one? For sure. And I and I do wonder if I am biased or or I'm noticing things because I kind I know a few things that are coming. And maybe that makes me see them in a different sort of light. Yeah. I'm trying not to think that way, but I'm also trying to think that if I had seen this without knowing anything, that I would have kind of picked up on it. Like I'll give you a couple examples. Like cordless. Yeah. She when we talked about this last episode, she completely messed that up. Like not legitimizing his sons. Terrible decision. Agreed. And I really, and in this episode, she does not talk to Hugh or Olf well at all. And Hugh or Hugh less so than Olf. I mean, she's a real bitch to Ulf. It's a horrible dude. Let's be fair. Ulf is a fucking idiot. Like he is an idiot.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

He's a moron. He's an idiot. But she needs him.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, he's called Ulf. I wrote this down. Ulf is an idiot, and then I put in quotes Of. Like I think it's supposed to sound very similar. Yeah. But like Ranira, she isn't understanding that Olf and Hugh come from a place that are completely different from herself. Yeah. And and just a little bit of patience, a little bit of being like, all right, I need to kind of win these. Guy's favor, but I think she thinks that the favor is the fact that they're now Dragon Riders and they'll be loyal forever. I don't think that she thinks she needs to do anymore. But her impatience and her lack of consideration, she's taking them for granted. And it's hard to watch sometimes because I really think she's messing it up.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

It's it it is hard to watch. I agree with you because it it's frustrating to watch sometimes when you think about like I know Ulf is annoying. I've I'm fully on board with you. I agree. He's annoying. He comes, he says stupid, stupid stuff all the time, makes weird comments, just doesn't really have a good sense of the room, read the room kind of guy. Not that he's you know, but he's in over his head. He is he's in over his head, and the stuff he's asking for is really not that big of a deal at all.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Like it's just But it is dumb though. But what like what you're gonna go drink with your buddies and then go ask the queen for pardon?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So what? No, he doesn't know what he's doing, he's in over his head. That's a perfect way of putting it, but he's also kind of innocent in all of that. Like he's yeah, how can you blame him all that much? Yeah, I just don't think he's that bright of a guy, but he has good intentions. The problem is when you take someone like that and you disrespect them repeatedly, you end up making them feel like I think that turns into anger. I think a lot of the things that he's having to deal with are just going to be internalized, which doesn't do well over time.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Well, they're spitting in his face. I mean, Damon literally slapped him, and then when he said, Oh, I want to be Ulf Targaryen, they're like, Oh, absolutely not. They're completely rejecting him at every dismissance.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And they insult him.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

They treat him like a lesser person, even though he's critical to their operation.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

But the problem is, I think this kind of really exemplifies the class divide in the show. I mean, Renier is queen, Damon is the rogue prince. These people are at the tippy tippy top, and Ulf is a drunkard from a tavern. They don't respect him. No, they don't. Um there was something very interesting that Kiki said about that scene with Ulf. She said that if Renira had granted his wishes by pardoning these people, these are the same people who are writing on the wall, you know, queen of bastards. So if you pardon them, that's how you earn their loyalty. Another issue too with her is like, you know, Ulf says I really liked how Ulf ended that conversation with Rhinira where he's like I I I don't quite remember what he says, but he's like, Oh, they don't know the kindness of the great queen. And he's like, he's not sarcastic, but he definitely is saying something like he he likes her, he wants to support her, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

This dude, this was the one of the best like conversational moves that Olf has made through the show. Because he, you're right, he's not that bright, but the way he says it, I think, is uh they they protest you or they did they detest you. It's one of those two words, basically just meaning they're not they're not happy with you out there. And they obviously don't know that you're so kind or something like that. They they they mistakenly take you for unkind. It's actually a very politically smart way of saying, hey, you're kind of being a bee, like you're a bitch. Like recognize it.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

But then Rhenira does the wrong thing after that. She says gold cloaks, go wipe it out. She uses force. The best thing that she could do is ignore it. She again, this is another thing. She's bringing up, like she's emphasizing it. Yeah. Same thing with Corless. If she had given Corless what he wanted, then all of this sort of chatter would go away.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah, but instead she responds with violence and which again proves Yeah, it doesn't accomplish any of what she's looking for. If you're worried about the people being pissed at you, don't go send people out to beat them. And it's just, I don't know, man. I I think you're right. And I can see where with you watching knowing the outcome, it's probably hard because you're seeing a lot of these signs and thinking.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

I only know of one thing coming up. And after that, I my again, my knowledge is I mean, dude, again, I read this book a couple years ago, and I did a little bit of reading like uh two weeks ago on it, but there's so much that happens. I just know something, I kind of know what happens in Tumbleton in the next couple episodes, but after that I don't really know. I also know like the the climax of the entire House of the Dragon show that I'm not gonna spoil for you because you're gonna love it. Um but yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Rhaenyra, she's it's uh she's so close. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

And you see the potential. You see the potential. Yes, you're like, you've got a lot of what what you need, but you're just not executing it well right now.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, and again, but if she isn't dealing with all of these other problems, I think she would be dealing with this a bit better. Yeah. So I mean, did they don't have any money? And because they don't have any money, I liked what the white worm. God, I again I can't stand that name. But what the white worm said that hire a new master of coin, and they hire uh Torin Manderley, who has, by the way, the best line in the whole episode. Has anyone considered a tax? And he's like waving around his quill, just being like, have we considered this really funny in just one line, and that was it? And that's all I needed. I think that's a good tactic, too, to like blame it on him, but also it's it's so like sneaky, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

It's yeah, it's a it's I I like the idea from the white worm. I think she gets some good advice from her still at this point. I don't know how that whole thing is gonna play out, but I think right now she's got like the white worm seems to kind of have a good way of communicating with her that makes her see a little bit more reason and logic, kind of brings her back a lot of the time, ropes her in.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I think Rhenira also likes having a woman on the small castle. Yeah. A friend that she makes out with every once in a while. They're good friends, you know.

unknown 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Well, let's talk about the rest of the council because let's okay, let's get into Damon then, because Damon shows up. I mean, we're jumping ahead with what happened with Damon, but he shows up with the head and the money. And honestly, that bag of gold, I was like, how much can that really do for a city? I don't know. It's gonna be like four days, not only that.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yeah. If it can be carried in a sack, I don't think it can solve the city's problems for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

But what does Manderley say? He's like, Oh, I am the master of coin, um, and what little master of it I am, or something. Like there's not much going on.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, Damon, so uh yeah, let's talk about Damon because Damon goes and gets the coin, uh, which is great, but the real meat of that scene is when he goes and sees his daughter. Yep. Raina. What's her name? Raina, that's Raina, yeah, hiding with Sheepstealer in a cave. And by the way, um shot of the episode, by the way. Shot of the episode.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah. When she's walking out with the flame behind the maw of Sheepstealer behind the KC Sheepstealer. Yeah, awesome. Awesome. What were you saying?

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I was gonna ask you just slightly before that, does Karaxes like smell sheepstealer? How the heck does he know or he or she? I always I don't what's the what's Caraxes? A girl or a guy?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

It's a they. And Karaxes. I don't know if you noticed that, but like she sounds like a dolphin. Yes, yes. Like like or a whale.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

No, a dolphin is perfect. I think a dolphin is perfect. That like chattery, kind of squealy, squeaky, like very high-pitched.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

And I wonder if it's only caraxes, because the others are a bit more of that traditional dragon sort of. I think you're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Um, but I dude, I feel like the dragons have almost like a like a sense, like they can sense like a wolf? Yeah, like the present. It might be some mix of smell and like instinct and intuition, all that, like kind of wrapped up, they can just sense things like that. Because it seems like they almost have that ability.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Because if we think of of dragons as the ultimate predator, like, like if if we were designing this show, you and me, we would probably then design dragons to have elements of the greatest hunters, animal hunt, like on earth, right? So we have a wolf a little bit. I think, yeah, orca whale, yeah, like dolphin-ish orca, that sort of vibe. Um yeah, wolf and orca, that's kind of how I view dragons.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah. So it has like a sense, like an ability. It would coming from the hunting sort of instinct that it would have. It it they can sense things like that. I just thought it was cool because it's like almost out of nowhere, uh, Karaxes has this like like catching a scent on the wind, uh, this instinctual uh understanding that Sheep Stealer is close by. And it's kind of cool to me that uh Karaxes just takes Damon there. Like, nope, we're I'm not listening. It's the first time, it's the first time that Karaxes isn't listening to Damon that we've seen.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I would argue that of all the Dragon Riders, Damon is the one that has the strongest uh control over his dragon, and probably the oldest relationship of all of the dragon riders. So again, and this also emphasizes the fact that the Targaryens have control over the dragons, but it's tenuous at best. And even the greatest one in Damon still has to uh when Caraxes wants to do what he wants to do, gone.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

It's not like Damon can physically stop it. Like, no.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Like, what are you gonna do? Pull the reins?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah, where? No way. It's gonna go where it wants to go. I'm sorry. Yeah, there's nothing you can do. And I thought it was great. Uh, I saw so many posts about exactly what you were saying. Damon has the best control of Karaxes because like as we see some of those scenes with them flying together and stuff like that. Uh Karaxes is a dope looking dragon. Yeah. The like the like leg wings, like it's got like a cool I love how the dragons are all so unique, dude. Like the dragons all have their own elements that make them identifiable. It's very cool. That's the best part. It almost caraxies almost looks like a flying squirrel, a little bit. I was gonna say like a kite, like a kite that you would see, like a you know, and they have like the tail, you know, feather. I don't know what they're called, but those wings are awesome.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Caraxeets finds the cave. And I love how also, again, the balls on Damon. Oh yeah, he's just walking in there. He just walks in. Yeah. He's like, fuck it. And then he sees Raina. And I I wanted to talk to you about this, man, because this scene kind of pissed me off. I don't get Raina's whole spiel. Why is she so upset? It wasn't her fault. Jace died.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

No, it wasn't. It literally wasn't. And I I'm glad you said that because when you look at what happened to Jace, yeah, there was some conflict between uh Sheepstealer and his dragon, whatever his dragon's name is, Cyrax. What's his dragon's name? I think so. They fight a little bit. Did he was Sheepstealer was not the direct reason why Jace died? Jace's dragon got shot with the with the spear, and then he gets arrowed in the water. Like that that's not directly her fault. And yet she seems to be just completely blamed by everyone, including Rainera, because that's what Damon says, as the reason why Jace died.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

But let's also look at this. We know what happened because we saw it. Rhaenera is only getting these like distant reports. So Bela, the other dragon rider, uh, was that a Moondancer? I think is the dragon's name. That sounds right. It's something close to that if it's not that, yeah. She brings Jace back. And what's she gonna say? There was a there was another dragon there that had a rider. Obviously, I think Rhineera, I think it's easier for Rhaenera to say that this. I mean, it certainly influenced Jace's death, but I don't think it caused Jace's death. Jace could have died at that battle without Chief Stealer being there. 100% agree.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

But I also I agree with what you said. I think it's easier to place blame, right? Is that what you're trying to say? Put blame on this. Yeah, there's a dragon writer out there who caused my son's death. And it gives you a reason it's like galvanizes you, you know, it gives you a put a place to put those emotions.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Yeah. And I it was kind of cool to see Damon running away. That's the first time I've ever seen him run away when sheepstealer would be. I don't, I it doesn't matter, but did you see the look on his face too? Like the kind of raise his eyebrows. I'm just gonna go murder this man, bring his head back, and that's the guy. Yeah. But I so now we we can kind of wrap this into this later scene, the the small council scene. He just puts the head on the table. And I think Rhaenera understands that Damon Damon doesn't want to talk about it. So therefore, I think Rhaenira is sniffing some bullshit. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Well, she knows Damon at this point. She knows what Damon is capable of and the way that Damon would handle certain to like make them go away. And I'm afraid that she's already getting a sense of that. And it's obviously like the white worm also has the same suspicion immediately. So it's like it doesn't take a you know, a complete genius to be like, is this like what's going on here? Is something yeah, is there a little bit of a scheme here? And honestly, dude, that scene made me a little bit, I don't want to say sad, but when we're talking about kind of the unraveling of the control of like these relationships and and the strength of the bond of people like between, you know, Damon and Rhaenira, Damon and uh Rainier and Corless, like these allies, it feels like we're watching the slow unravel of some of the like this the binds of trust, bonds of trust, you know, like they're they're getting yeah, they're fraying.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yep. Yeah, I completely agree. And again, I think it'll be interesting to see where all of this goes. Uh let's go, let's wrap up with a few other characters here. Um Aegon and Laris. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

We gotta we gotta hit that because that was that's a we can just talk about that full storyline because it was sad with Aegon dogging the dragon.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And I do you think Aegon is starting to lose it a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Sure seems like it. He says the dragon's alive, and the dragon to me looks pretty darn dead on the ground. It's been dead. I mean, how long has it been? It's sitting on the same place weeks, right? Uh yeah, I think at this point it has to be. Uh and can I tell you real quick? Um, yeah, I think HBO, one of the HBO accounts, actually put out a clip of Aegon and um what is his dragon's name? Sorry, Sunfire or something like that. It's like I think his dragon. Uh before he goes off to get the dragon killed, when he's like kind of drunk and he's like greeting the dragon. Dude, that's like the kindest that I've ever seen Aegon look. I had forgotten that scene, and they they showed that on top of the one where he's hugging the dragon when it's dead. It's like this dragon might have been one of the only things that Aegon like really cared about.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Dude, I think Aegon's. Other than himself. I think Aegon's the type of person who's kinder to animals than people. You know, at least the dragon. Kind of like how Hitler loved dogs, you know. I guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Maybe maybe, maybe that's a good comp. I I yeah, I it just feels like uh you don't see him very warm to anything in the show, but he's actually pretty warm to the dragon.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

The problem is right now he's literally crispy, and he's all he's burnt to fuck. Yeah. He's not gonna he's in also a lot of pain, like some consistent pain. I mean, he yells at that guy, and he has no patience right now. They get to Rook's rest and he yells at that dude and like what do you call him an ape? But it's also like, hey God, come on, buddy. First of all, you have uh you know, a cripple with you as your only ally, who, by the way, listen to him, as much as we think Laris is a sociopath, Laris is not stupid at all. No, he knows exactly how to play these situations. A hundred percent. And it was interesting. Kiki asked a good question when Aegon was kissing, you know, the I don't know the guy's name, but he was kissing that guy's foot. She was like, Do you think this will make Aegon a better king or a worse one? Or like a kinder or or a meaner one? And I said, I kind of think like a bit of both. Like, I think he'll maybe understand it a little bit and therefore never want to be there again and be an asshole. I don't know. Aegon Aegon's a very interesting character because he he learned a very, very harsh lesson when Sunfire died. And he got, you know, he looks like a toaster strudel. You know, he's not doing well. And I think this has been very, very humbling for him. However, I do think he's starting to lose it very slowly.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Yeah, I I think you're right. I think it would be hard for anyone who had gone from being king to be a nobody. But yeah, like I think just any anyone off the street, if you made them king for a few years and then were like, hey, no, actually now you're just gonna be like this, I don't know, beggar that is needs work and stuff. It would be hard for anyone, but it's impossible for Aegon or darn near.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Well, he I mean, they go into Rook's rest and he's astounded by what he's seeing. He just doesn't get it. And it's very interesting. I mean, this again goes back to Reneira not getting Ulf and not getting Hugh, really. Aegon's the same way, but he's getting a more direct involvement in this. I mean, he literally has to collect piss for tanners, which is a real thing, by the way. When you would tan hides, it needed the they needed the ammonia and urine. So oftentimes tanners would be placed further away from the rest of the town because it stunk so bad. Nice interesting little history fact there. Um but um yeah, Aegon kisses that guy's foot, and uh that was the end of that for him, that this episode, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Yeah, yeah. I I don't have a ton of faith in Aegon changing. I'm not gonna lie. I I see Aegon as somebody who I just don't have much faith in him learning to be a better person. I wish that what you were saying could be true, and I'm yeah, it could end up being true, and I could be proven wrong, which would be fantastic. Because great for Aegon. But I just don't see it, man. I don't see it. I think that guy is who he is. I think he might get a few lessons in humility here, but at the end of the day, if he's back up on the throne, I think he's making people kiss his feet right back.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

I think the beauty, the beauty of Game of Thrones, in an odd way. I know like we always like character development in stories, but I kind of like how they're the characters do grow, but they don't really change. Does that make sense? And I think that that makes Game of Thrones very fun to watch because all of the characters they get in their own way. The the s the events of this story are because of the the character's personalities that don't really change all that much. Does that you know I'm trying to say? I think so. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

You see um different levels of character development, maybe uh in people like if you wouldn't want to use examples from Game of Thrones, Jamie Lann is one of people's favorite character arcs, somebody who maybe actually would be an example that you could point to to be like, did he he might have changed a little bit? But then again, some parts remain the same.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

But I think I think maybe what I was trying to say, it's the results of their actions when they're terrible people at the beginning or stubborn or whatever. Like Aegon looks like the way he does because of his choices. All of these characters are making these choices that are inevitably leading them to where where we're going, I guess. I really should have thought this out a bit further. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

No, dude, I mean it hey who cares? We're We're we're just thinking together. I think you're right. Um, and then sometimes it's funny, like to your point, uh, if Jamie I'm still sticking with the Jamie example. Go for it. Was Jamie kind of a good person from the start? So in some ways, he's not changing. Like he just is choosing to be better.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

It's a bold claim to say Jamie Lannister was the a good person from the start.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

I know, and it's a really hard one to defend with various concepts.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

A little kid out of the brother.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

I know. But from a young age, he defended his brother Tyrion. He protected him. Like from a young age, but way before that. I'm saying I think there's seeds of good in him from the start. Of course. He chooses to follow that more towards the end.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I think Jamie is the ultimate example of a complicated person. Like he is absolutely gray.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

I mean, he has three children with his sister, but then he's very protective of his dwarf younger brother. He then pushes a kid out the window. I think the I think a metaphor for Jamie is like when when he gets his hand cut off in I think was it season three? I think that you can almost say that that is him losing the shitty side of him, if if that makes sense. So um but yeah, I mean I think all of these characters I that's I think why we love Game of Thrones so much, man. These characters are so complicated. Yeah. Um and they do things for very specific reasons. And I it's I think it's it's a lot of fun. Let's move on to just one more character, and then we'll we'll wrap it up at for the ending. We haven't talked about Cole at all.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Good. Yeah, I had a note about Cole. I'm glad you brought it up.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Cole, I like again, I like him as a character. Massive fucking pussy.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Really?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Yeah, I just I mean, I'm not saying really because I do think he's kind of a pussy, but go. He's just a bitch. Oh, the girl doesn't want to be my wife and give me a. Yeah, all that stuff. Cole is a pussy. Yeah. Yes. Like, oh, and now I'm mad. Like, it's the ultimate, like almost incel behavior. But I mean, that whole scene in Heronhall, I mean, not really much going on there to touch upon. I think the only thing I think I want your opinion on was his strategy. You know, Amon seems to be gone, but I mean, if they were to maybe search the castle a little better, they'd find him. So I don't know why they didn't. But he's now gonna fight basically a guerrilla warfare against the Starks, I think, the river men, the the older guys that were in episode one, right, that Damon sees and they kill one of the Lannisters, right? I I think they're just gonna do guerrilla warfare. And I mean, what do you think? Do you think that's a good idea, or or what do you think they should do?

SPEAKER_02 47:07

I'm glad I appreciate you asking me this because I have a note to talk to you about it, and I would have forgotten it. One, I think it's a very stupid idea. The Gorilla War? Yeah. I think it's a losing battle. I don't, I don't think it's smart, but I respect the crap out of him for it. That was the first time I have respected Cole in a while in the show. And it's not that I think he's this great character now or anything like that. I just admire the fact that when uh what is his name? Gwane, the brother is like is like, all right, dude, let's pack it up. We lost the game, let's go home. I kind of like the fight in Cole. I like the like, all right, they outnumber us 20 to 1. We're probably not gonna win. We're probably just gonna delay them at best, but fuck it. Let's go do it. Do you think he's just suicidal? Yeah, maybe, maybe. But I was like, he's got some balls. Let's go, let's go do what we can. And he I think he's probably gonna get a lot of them killed, probably all of them killed, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

But it's like also, I think the whole time everything he said was such a contradiction. Like he's like, our our fight won't be clean, but it'll be pure. I'm like, bro, those are fucking synonyms. That was a weird, that was a weird line. I think he's like we must cling to our honor lest we become beasts ourselves. That you're literally fighting in a beastly way. It's a gorilla warfare. Yeah. Fair point. You're gonna kill them in the dark, you're gonna stab them in the night, you're gonna sneak up on them in a time where a battle is where, you know, they line up on a field and and charge at each other. So I I just don't think he gets what he was talking about. Or maybe he thinks that this is the right thing to do because no matter what, he's fighting for his king. I mean, I guess you can look at it, but you know, we talked about it this last week. You know, you can really convince yourself of anything if you think you're doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Well, yeah, you can. You can for sure. You absolutely can. And I think he may be pretty delusional at this point. I think he's lost a lot and has kind of lost his purpose, and he's probably feeling like just the hand of a king to a king that does he doesn't know exists anymore. Yeah, he says it himself, there's no place for somebody like me. And it's kind of true, even more now than it probably was before. So there's no place for him. I guess I just respected the uh pick a pick a path. You're not waiting around. You probably know you're gonna lose, but you're still gonna do something. Uh I just I like that. And I I think it's admirable to go out fighting for a cause, even if you're kind of delusional about it and you're not even really sure what cause. At least he's sticking to his guns to some degree.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

I I I completely agree. Um well, let's let's finish up here. Let's do the last scene. Again, we're going back to Ormond again, being very manipulative and conniving and very dangerous. This is the biggest scene where I've seen him be the most dangerous. He takes Hugh Hammer's wife's or Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law, I guess, and tells Darren to kill him. Yeah. What was his reasoning again?

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Well, his new plan, and uh this is pretty impressive, but his new plan is Darren. Darren to be king. And to become a king, you have to serve the king's justice. And that man, Hugh Hammer's brother-in-law, hurt an extension of the High Tower family, right? That's Orman's justification. Hey, this soldier was, you know, air quotes, a threat. Yeah. This this man hurt an extension. You know, the soldier is an extension of the high towers. He's a high tower soldier. And so the king has to bring justice. And we talk this, so I think it's great that we're finishing with this because character development is kind of a big piece here where we're seeing Orman be incredibly manipulative, but Darren does it. He he successfully manipulates him. I didn't see that coming. I don't know about you. I don't think Darren was like that. Yeah, it's reluctantly, it is reluctantly, but he does it. And it's like, yeah. All right, so I mean, we're gonna see where this goes because he's clearly still fully hypnotized by Ormond. I mean, he he cares about not disappointing him. That's I guess the way that I really should say it.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

I really liked how Ormond described the dragons, where he was like, they're they're a I he didn't say they were demonic, but that he was he was like, these this is these are evil, these are black magic, these are dark creatures. He's not wrong. But it is interesting to then be sort of uh to see them framed like that. But then he's also not afraid to to use them. But he hates them at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah, he's got a really conflicted relationship with dragons. I think you're right. Um, it kind of reminds me of what you said in our last episode where you talked about uh the high septum saying like they only destroy people view the dragons as destruction, but they're also like, if I can wield that power, they get the same kind of Targaryen instinct where it's like, if I can wield that power, it might be useful to me.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Well, George Martin um said, I I actually don't know if he said this, but but dragons are a metaphor for nuclear weapons.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

And I mean, I see the destructive, it's the incredible destructive and the scale beyond what would be normal at that time. It's like you can't really fathom how much destruction and and death this can cause.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

I I watched I watched a really, really interesting video. Like I mean, this has got to be over ten years ago now. But you know those video essays on YouTube where someone takes a concept and then kind of discusses it in an intellectual way. This guy basically made the argument that dragons prevent progress because they can they don't need uh people don't need to advance their weaponry if they have a dragon. Do you know like they don't need to make gunpowder to destroy city walls, they have a dragon. So it was very, very interesting. It was very interesting. I'll probably I'll try to find that video, I'll send it to you. But it was it was very interesting to see. Um and dude, it ends pretty brutally. And I wonder if this is gonna be kind of like a uh it ends so gruesomely, like they cook the guy, and then it goes to the credits of the dragon eating him. And I wonder if they're like, okay, we've had two relatively quiet episodes, nothing really happens, or nothing, nothing uh violent happens, or no, nothing of massive consequence. I mean, they're still setting up what's gonna happen. I wonder if the dragon, you know, burning him and eating him is like, all right, hey, like this is over now. We're now gonna start, we're gonna get back into the shit. We had the first two episodes, pretty hectic, pretty crazy, two calm episodes, and now I think it's gonna get pretty intense.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Yeah. I think you're probably right. It feels like the tension is building these last two episodes. Uh it's so good though. It's so well done. Oh, yeah, it's well done. And truthfully, dude, I think even though people might watch and say, like, well, there wasn't as much action. Honestly, every episode can't be the fireworks that the first two were. Uh the show would be over by the end of this season.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Well, then it it's also if there's no setup, if there's no build, if there's no tension, those moments are wasted.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Yeah, the payoff isn't as good if you don't have that build-up. Some of the some of the incredi incredible like climactic moments that we see are because we had a couple episodes of buildup beforehand to build all this tension and then it's released. Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Think about like you go to a buffet and then you get in the car, and your friend is like, all right, let's go to another buffet. Yeah. You're like, ew, no. Let me get hungry first. Yeah. The fuck are you talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

I think uh I think you're totally right. We we had to we have to have some episodes like this. And honestly, these episodes have moved the plot along. I actually appreciated that this one wasn't so Renee-centric because we got an idea of where the pieces on the board were kind of moving around. I think that was nice. I think that was pretty refreshing. And I feel like it go ahead. It's a bit of a cold war right now.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Like it, it it's just something needs to give. There's a lot of scheming, a lot of brewing. Like everyone in is in a decent position right now, and no one is really they're they're kind of waiting for the next move to be made or for the next break, where then they can have the excuse to do what they need to do. So I'm looking forward to it, man. I think the next episodes are gonna be great. How many episodes we got left? Four, right? This is halfway through? Yes, sir. We're at the halfway point. Excellent. Well, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

You got any other final points? No, I enjoyed the episode. Like I said, I think it went a long way to move the plot forward. Uh, and I think that this tension and the intensity that we're building, it's just gonna have a great payoff. Yeah, I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

All right. Well, this has been uh too much TV, and we will see you guys next week. Bye bye.