Ever craved a tasty vegan meal that needed a little extra zing? Allow us to take you on a culinary adventure as we spice things up and navigate the food terrain from Brian's taste buds to your ears. We'll share a foodie's review of a Forks Over Knives meal, the need for a hot sauce rescue mission, and a sip into the world of Nitro Pepsi. So, pull up a chair at our podcast table and get ready for some flavorful insights, seasoned with a sprinkle of philosophy.
Now, have you ever considered unconditional love? Is it a human possibility or a beautifully doomed concept? We take a dive into the human mind, discussing the scientific basis for unconditional love and the role religion and spirituality may play in shaping our capacity for it. From exploring the distinct nature of love in various relationships to the concept of emotional bank accounts, our chat is more than a feast for thought.
As we wrap up our conversation, we serve up some relationship wisdom, discussing the importance of good intentions in those we love and the impact of minor disturbances on our relationship health. We end on a note that challenges us all, to separate behavior from love in relationships. So, join us in a stimulating mix of food, philosophy, and a deeper understanding of unconditional love. Grab your headphones and your favorite snack, you're in for an enlightening treat.
Ever craved a tasty vegan meal that needed a little extra zing? Allow us to take you on a culinary adventure as we spice things up and navigate the food terrain from Brian's taste buds to your ears. We'll share a foodie's review of a Forks Over Knives meal, the need for a hot sauce rescue mission, and a sip into the world of Nitro Pepsi. So, pull up a chair at our podcast table and get ready for some flavorful insights, seasoned with a sprinkle of philosophy.
Now, have you ever considered unconditional love? Is it a human possibility or a beautifully doomed concept? We take a dive into the human mind, discussing the scientific basis for unconditional love and the role religion and spirituality may play in shaping our capacity for it. From exploring the distinct nature of love in various relationships to the concept of emotional bank accounts, our chat is more than a feast for thought.
As we wrap up our conversation, we serve up some relationship wisdom, discussing the importance of good intentions in those we love and the impact of minor disturbances on our relationship health. We end on a note that challenges us all, to separate behavior from love in relationships. So, join us in a stimulating mix of food, philosophy, and a deeper understanding of unconditional love. Grab your headphones and your favorite snack, you're in for an enlightening treat.
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick. I'm Nick.
Speaker 2:And I'm Brian. Well, Brian was struggling. I was Why do you do that?
Speaker 1:I got a long pause man. I'm stealing this from Lily Tomlin, just a classic comedian. If love is the answer, could you please rephrase the question? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:What are my eating? I am. I did not have a vegan adventure. I don't think I had a gluten free adventure. This says packed with veggies, but it is not necessarily vegan. I don't see the wheat. Yeah, i don't see the telltale V on here for vegan or vegetarian or anything, but anyway, this is a company called Forks Over Knives And, quite honestly, i do not remember if I've done another one of their frozen meals or frozen dishes, but I'm going to do it again now.
Speaker 1:So this one is a bill for what it's worth.
Speaker 2:So this says whole food, plant based, so, but it does not say vegetarian on it anywhere or vegan, which is weird. Anyway, i've already gone over that. So this is a fire roasted enchilada stack. It looks really good. Look at the picture. That is really good. Look at that. It looks like it tastes good. Right, It doesn't. It doesn't taste good.
Speaker 2:No actually I'll tell you this It's not. It wasn't bad. It was just sort of bland, Like it was. Just everything was just sort of there was no spice to it. It was actually, unlike most frozen things or processed things, not very salty at all, And so which is I mean? I'm not saying not salty, like oh gosh, this is really too salty, it tastes bad. I'm saying it was under seasoned. So so anyway, I had to plus it up a little bit with some my new favorite hot sauce that I just bought to try, because they were out of sriracha, the type of sriracha I buy at the market.
Speaker 1:So I bought some Have you heard of You do sriracha? I don't know why that's so funny to me.
Speaker 2:So have you? have you heard of gochujang? Gochujang, I don't know how to pronounce it, man. No, it's G-O-C-H-U-J-A-N-G. Gochujang.
Speaker 1:You lost me at G. Did you say G? was G in there? G Okay.
Speaker 2:It's N's and begins with a G Anyway so apparently it's Korean red chili paste.
Speaker 2:And so it's not really like a salsa, It's just really like chopped up like chilies. And I tried it one time before in a poke bowl And wow, that's awesome. Right, I just mentioned poke bowl and it's in the intro. Anyway, I tried it one other time on a poke bowl and it was so hot, Like I was like this, my mouth was burning and I like I sort of liked it, But at the same time I was like man, this is just it's sort of relentless and it sort of was a building heat, Like you take your first bite, it gets hotter, second bite hotter, third bite hotter, And like by the end of the bowl I was like ah, ah, my mouth, I can't feel my mouth. My mouth is so wet, exactly.
Speaker 2:I'm crying. So anyway, i bought some to have to. you know, try on certain basic things and it's good It's. this one is not as hot as the other one that I tried, so I don't know if it was like a different variety or a different brand, or if it was just I don't know what, but this one does not seem to be as spicy. So what I did was I took some of this gochujang, but I also found I'm back on the mayonnaise line, so um, so I, so I found some Dukes Habanero garlic mayonnaise.
Speaker 1:So I did.
Speaker 2:At least you came back hard. Yeah, man, i'm telling you I did it right. So, so, dukes, habanero, garlic mayonnaise, and then I put some gochujang on it as well And it was like the perfect amount of spiciness. Now, i did not use a lot of mayo, like I, i basically used a serving of it, you know a couple tablespoons just to give it a little creaminess, but, man, it was good. After I put that stuff on this, this fire roasted enchilada stack, it was much better. And so I recommend, if you're going to get forks over knives, food maybe you have something at the ready to like plus it up just a little bit. If you're somebody like me, who's like I, like to have a little spicy, a little creamy, a little whatever you know a little salty, a little salty, a little sugary little, anyway, speaking, of speaking
Speaker 1:of sugary. I on the wagon, though, with mayo like no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I just like I said, i just have that They had it was actually on sale and it's like a small it's a yeah, it says break glass in case of emergency and it's in this whole case, yeah, no, it's just a little small squeeze bottle of it. So it was like on sale, but it was not like a full size big jar or anything like that, it was just a small squeeze bottle. So I bought it a couple of weeks ago and, you know, basically have been just using it sparingly, so so not fully back on board with the mayo train, but yeah, but I'm. I saw that and I was like, well, it's on sale and it's habanero garlic, so I had to do it. So, brian's beverage corner it's a little bit light today, but I was saying, speaking of sugar, is I did? I reviewed this a while back. Actually, not the same variety of it, but it's nitro Pepsi, so it's literally a can. It's the third time. The third time.
Speaker 1:The third time we've checked. Yeah. Are you sure I would bet $20 on it. I might be wrong, but I would bet.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've seen the audience who wants to. you know, take, take Nick up on that action. Then you have to listen to all of our episodes. You have to go, Yeah. There's only like 70 episodes. You just got to go back and and with a fine tooth comb.
Speaker 1:So that's that's probably like 80 hours.
Speaker 2:It's a lot. It's a lot.
Speaker 1:Way too much to listen to us talk about stuff.
Speaker 2:But but yeah, no. So I thought I did a vanilla one version of this And then this is the regular version I did. I know what I think I did. I think I did a nitro cold brew in a can one time, like a canned coffee. That was nitro, that you open it and have a pack or something.
Speaker 1:You might be forgetting is I brought it up before. Oh and I talked about my take on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I don't really listen to what you say. So you know.
Speaker 1:I said we've talked about this twice. This will be the third time we've talked about this. Okay, so it's inclusive.
Speaker 2:Anyway, i had this again And I remember last time, though, i had the vanilla version was like vanilla Pepsi And I was like this is terrible And also it tastes like Pepsi. And so you know, when they ask you, is Pepsi, okay, you know you say no, pepsi's not okay. You know I need Um, but honestly, this one was really enjoyed. Like this is how much I have left of it. So like so I've drank about two thirds of it.
Speaker 1:You drank it right, you poured it into a glass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hard poured it. It has a little directions on the back, but I will say I'm sacrificed I think a lot, because this is a 62 grams of sugar in this can, so which is 125% of your daily. So I'm already over the daily for sugar on that And it's 230 calories. So, um, sacrificing for the podcast, people, that's what I do.
Speaker 1:So saccharine feising sacrifice, right.
Speaker 2:So anyway. So the I typically I don't like Pepsi, i'm like a Coke person. when, if I ever drink anything, which I hardly, i mean, I can't remember the last time I had a full strength like actual Coca-Cola product, that was non-diet, right. I usually drink like Coke zeros and stuff like that, right.
Speaker 2:But, this is Brian's sugar rush. I'm basically, yeah, i'm on it, i'm on it, and I just drank like two thirds of this thing, like right before we started recording. So, um, no, but it's actually really good. Uh, i mean, it still tastes like Pepsi, but the fact, the thing that I don't like about actual Pepsi is that the bubbles are really, really big. Well, the nitro makes the bubbles super fine, and so it's almost like a slightly fat, fat Pepsi no, slightly flat Pepsi that it has enough carbonation to make you know that it still has. It's not flat, but it also is not like going up your nose and stuff like that, And so actually pretty enjoyable.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's the day or what, but it's actually pretty enjoyable. So so I've got that even though we've talked about it three times, sorry audience. And then I've got my handy dandy metal container with ice water in it. I put some ice in there, and it's a hot day today, so on this redacted day, and uh, and it's good to have some ice water at the handy. So so that is what I'm eating. What about you, nick Andrew?
Speaker 1:Uh, I'm eating a bunch of nothing. Yeah. We're picking up the fasting bit of the bone broth diet which is good, because I need to get back on that horse. Yeah. Weight loss and health conscious and eating right. Yeah. I'm a little hungry, but I'm good. It's just a mild distraction. Yeah. And I have noticed just when we fast about. Once a week like the next, i'll go to bed hungry. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like my stomach will be grumbling, but it's not discomfort, And when I wake up, I don't wake up hungry. It's like my body got into ketosis and I'm like do I eat breakfast? I mean, you know how long I'm always kind of tempted just to see how long I can go without eating. Maybe I'll do that. See, not tomorrow, though, because we're doing brunch. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Triple. B. Triple B? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's fine, we'll work through it. Anyway, i am taking in some small calories, like I've had a miso soup bone broth, which I do not recommend, oh yeah. You don't like that. It's like it's bland. It sounds like it'd be flavorful, but it's pretty bland, And so now I'm sort of washing that down with the classic bone broth. Okay. I've also had a couple of nitros. Yeah.
Speaker 1:With sweet cream. So I'm sort of cheating on the fast fire. Yeah, but yeah, that's all I had all day. You got in some water. That's good, so we've already talked about the day too.
Speaker 2:But you have like, isn't it like two weeks that you have to do the initial part? I know we talked about this like twice already, just like the Pepsi.
Speaker 1:It's all good. Well, I don't remember a lot of the details. We're sort of doing a modified bone broth Bone broth. Diet of like we're enacting various elements that we remember. Yeah, and being consistent with that, i guess getting ourselves used to the idea again. Then we'll crack open the book and do it Yeah The actual. Yeah, It's so recent that I haven't seen. I haven't felt any like midterm effects. Yeah. I haven't started losing weight in my cheeks or my belly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a. So basically, i'm on a sugar rush and you're like um, i might fall asleep, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm on a yeah, i'm on a like a yeah, 24 hour long sugar crash. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no, because I had the sweet cream.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of sugar.
Speaker 1:Long sugar crash Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that's good, that sounds good, not not hard No well, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, go ahead. I was going to say you were, you were thrilled earlier that we talked about. We made an inadvertent callback to our intro, but yeah, there's also a callback to our intro. Um, we've talked about love before, that's true.
Speaker 2:We talked about a long time ago like a long we were talking about 70 episodes. It was like episode nine or something Like what is love.
Speaker 1:I think it was man. I'm pretty sure It was a long time ago, i remember.
Speaker 2:I remember it was a February, but I'll look yeah, i'll look back on our text right, but I'm pretty sure it was. I looked it up, i'm pretty sure it was like it was definitely season one.
Speaker 1:Whatever text thread, just look at our episode whatever. Okay, yeah, so we're going to talk about unconditional love, right?
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:A particular flavor of love.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's something that that I think the reason why I thought this was interesting is basically, it's a term that people throw around all the time And the question is like okay, what does that even mean, first of all. But then, second of all, what is that even possible? Like, can you? is there on this plane, like you know, on this earthly plane, is there a way to like unconditionally love? And man, it was crazy when I looked up stuff about it, because there's a huge debate on it that I did not think was actually happening about whether or not, and there's people that are writing articles like no, this is if you think that you're the biggest city in the world and it is no possible way you can have conditional love, and it's unhealthy and it's terrible. And then you look up other things and they're like actually you should strive for this And it's whatever, and all these other things.
Speaker 1:So 10 ways you you can have unconditional love.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then you're like well, make your partner unconditionally love you.
Speaker 2:Well, well, a whole bunch of click bait, yeah, but, like I said, i was just talking about or thinking about the, the sort of the concept of it, and I think what I think what got me is like I remember I'm not even going to be able to say like a specific thing, but it was a mother was being interviewed on the news and her son was a murderer, like he had killed a bunch of people.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't a question like he had killed a bunch of people, right, it was just a matter of whether he was going to go to jail for it or whatever, but he did it, right. And she, basically, was on the news saying, well, i still love my son, you know, i still love the like, and this is somebody who did like something super heinous, and I was. I started thinking about that, the unconditionality of that type of thing, which is, by the way, one of the biggest examples that most people give when they talk about unconditional love is a parent to a child, because there's that connection or bond there with your children, and and so you know. But in the abstract, though, is it possible to, you know?
Speaker 1:Well, i don't even think I mean I was. I was serious, i was seriously hoping you were going to come on the side of it you know unconditional love because then you and I could debate it and have some.
Speaker 2:No, I'm, I think that's faring. No, I think that you can, And I'll tell you why like I'm not going to tell you why immediately? but I'm going to straw this out for about 45 minutes because we have an hour to fill.
Speaker 1:But um good call, sir. You were a seasoned practitioner.
Speaker 2:I am strategizing Exactly, so no, but I think. I definitely think that it is possible to unconditionally love a person. but I will say that it's just like anything else, it's all. sometimes it comes back to like definitions. Sometimes it comes back to um you know certain I don't know, I guess, how you want to. Just I mean, I guess that's the best way to say it. Well, so.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's, let's start talking about it and just talk.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, the first, let me let me just reference one article that I found that was talking about um, more of the scientific aspect. So this was from betterhelpcom. So that's psycho, you know psychology. Um, they don't sponsor our podcast, but they sponsor a lot of podcasts, but they're that company that you can get like remote counseling and other stuff like that, right? So they had an article on their website about it and it really did go into like some studies and some other stuff.
Speaker 2:In the scientific aspect of it. It said that studies show that unconditional love, uh, is, or can be, a biological reality in the human brain and that it can have various benefits for your mental health. So they're obviously writing an article to encourage that. You know, um, but they reference, uh, a 2021 study.
Speaker 2:So recent study where there and this is going to be great, i'll try to pronounce it correctly but the researchers noted that the para aqueductal, para peri aqueductal gray, the, or P a G location in the brain is often associated with unconditional love, as well as fear, conditioning, pain, modulation and altruism, which it makes sense to me. Altruism is in there because that's almost like, it's almost like the manifestation of unconditional love, right? And you know there's homeless people. I want to help homeless people, so I'm going to be altruistic and I'm going to donate money and my time or whatever else to you know if I'm, if I'm, you know if I'm using the correct definition of altruism, of course, um, and it also does say, interestingly, that the concepts can play a role in religious beliefs and spirituality.
Speaker 2:So obviously there's I mean you being having had read the Bible, having read the Bible at some point It's been a bit Yes, Yeah it's been a wall Right, but you, but the the third, if you had to pick a theme of the Bible, i mean there's, there's got, there's at least partially a theme of Unconditional love, i would think. Or do you disagree with that?
Speaker 1:I do disagree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you think it's all conditional, i mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the when in the Old Testament it was conditional. If you do what I say, then you'll get my blessings. That's pretty conditional? Yeah, but nobody cares about the Old Testament man okay, so New Testament if, if You know there's, there's all the the ifs right like. Right like if, if you believe, believe and repent, to be baptized for the renewing of your sins is like okay, well, so if I want to have my, if I'm with forgiveness of my sins, so I misspoke, then I have to believe right be baptized, depending on your domination.
Speaker 1:It's a, it's an and or it's an or or both right, but it's like, and if you believe in in hell and punishment, that's absolutely conditional right. Like, yeah, you do what I say, or else, yeah, i think, and in it, like you say, though it comes down to terms. So like Is it Love without any conditions. Like I really, or is it Like just sort of a shorthand to describe Love slash affection? that Takes a whole lot to undo right.
Speaker 1:It takes a whole lot a compounding of conditions before it breaks. It's resilient. Maybe a resilient love is, i would say, for it to be even Remotely possible as a thing Might be a better name for what people are talking about, like Yeah cuz.
Speaker 2:Well, so, like, here's my, here's my example or thought is and going back to the, what I talked about with the, the mother on the news and sons a murderer, she still says I love my son, right? I think of People who, let's say, there's your interrelationship and you break up, right, not, i'm not not necessarily a marriage, but just your interrelationship and you break up and Most times it's I mean, i would say most times, but many times it's not mutual. Well, one person doesn't want to break up. The other person is like, yeah, i'm done right, and And the person that doesn't want to be broken up with, they still love that person, but they don't. They don't love the action that they took, so, like they don't love the fact that they broke up with them, but they still love the person, right, but they're. they might be angry at the person and might be like, no, i don't want to be with that person anymore and like, vocalize that and take, have to come to terms with the fact that that person Doesn't want to be with you anymore, but they still love the person.
Speaker 2:And I I would say that as a way to get back to the murderer son Where she's like hey, i love my son. I don't agree with what he did. I don't love what he did, but I still love him and we'll always love him As a parent, like you see what I'm saying. So like what I'm saying is, is that to me, in my book, that is unconditional. Like you're you're separate.
Speaker 2:Oh, I guess my point early part in song Well, and you're, yeah, exactly, well, like so, but you're separating the person from the action. So that, to me, is the definition of unconditional love. Is you're saying, hey, i love, I will love you no matter what, but you can do some stuff that are gonna make me. That's gonna make me really Angry, it's gonna make me feel ways that's gonna do all kinds of stuff And I'm not gonna like those things, but I'll always love you, a human being, the human being that's you, the essence of you, right?
Speaker 1:Hmm, so I agree and disagree. Okay. Like I think from a from the human concept right. That, like I agree that When we talk about unconditional love, what we're talking about is People who maintain their affection right for a person, despite their actions. Right Like that. I think that's basically the definition of unconditional love. I Would say, though, that that love has its limits, and it has a lot to do with the person doing the loving, as well as the person being loved.
Speaker 1:Yeah like that. So so the son in the example you gave, the son is the one who did the crime right, So his moral compass is probably a little whacked right. Well, where do you think he got his whacked moral compass from? Yeah, I mean two parents. You know, nature or nurture Right.
Speaker 2:But it could also be the absence of a parent. You know, it could also be a parent that wasn't there, like that, you know, like, and now this is gonna be really traditional, like gender roles and things like that.
Speaker 1:I'm still setting my point, but go on.
Speaker 2:Well, i'm just saying it doesn't have to be, like you said, nature versus nurture. It doesn't have to be the presence of a parent that's teaching or that's guiding that person. It could be the fact that they didn't have the proper upbringing or that they were like, let's say, there's somebody like that, they're, they're in the foster, foster system or something like that, where they're going from house to house and they don't have. They were orphans and so see what I'm saying. But then again, i guess you're what you're saying is those foster parents, you know It could, could be mistreating the child or do something like that.
Speaker 1:So I haven't said anything yet.
Speaker 2:Well, i'm just going down the path. You know what I mean, sure.
Speaker 1:Well, like a lot of a lot of times, people Let's see there's, i feel like there's a lot to impact, a lot of possibility and right and perhaps speculation with this example.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, yeah, i some, if the mother.
Speaker 1:If the mother feels guilty about how the son turned out, you think you know You think she's gonna feel better about herself or worse about herself if she abandons him, if she felt somewhat responsible for how he turned out, if yeah she is somewhat Wack morally, like she might feel fine that he killed six people. She didn't like them anyway right if he stole her sacred you know, i don't know, like ceramic doll on the Mantle, she might freak out right and and lose it also.
Speaker 1:Her definition of love is hard to say right be like he's goodwill or Attachment yeah she could be codependent, and that's even helped lead him to becoming very narcissistic and self-centered in his actions right like Her unconditional love without boundaries. Not giving the person boundaries is a great way to get them to behave without boundaries, such as, at that point, committing crime, right Like I think. She may think she still loves him, but I think there's a good chance that she was part of the problem or she's worried. She was part of the problem. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It doesn't know how to reconcile that, and her confirmation bias, as well as avoidant of responsibility tendencies, might have her just fall back on the will. I'm still his mother, i just love him. he can do no wrong. And again, that attitude kind of maybe informed his bad behavior that required society to step in where his parentage failed him. Yeah, as a maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I think it's interesting, you put up, like you said, like I'm trying to remember exactly what triggered this for me, but like there's a different article that I was reading that was talking about, sort of, the next step is you know whether or not this is healthy? but I don't know if we've completed the discussion about this yet. No, we're good.
Speaker 1:That's good. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:So I was just going to say that they you know there's a number of articles that say it's not healthy, Like most of these are talking about romantic relationships though. So the question again we're shifting to a different type of relationship, And I guess that makes sense, because your love for your brother or sister is the different from the love for your parent, is different from the love for your spouse or significant other, is different from the love for your dog, And actually this, I mean, I don't know, did we talk about that in the other what is love episode is like. All of these things are different, Or is it all? is it just love? is love Everything's love?
Speaker 1:So that was almost going to be in the opening. Love is love. Love is love. I feel like it's some kind of spectrum and we have all kinds of words. Yeah. For the concept. Yeah. And I don't know where. I think unconditional love falls on the far end of that affection spectrum. Right, but there's yeah good will, Like you're talking about how, if a partner leaves like I'm in that I'm in a situation where I divorced and I still have like good will towards my ex. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I don't want bad things for her. I don't hate her, i want her to have a good life. Right, i, just I. In a way, that's unconditional good will, right, right, yeah, And I think there's also even an almost unconditional attachment, like I still feel that connection of some sort to that person. It was just that it's almost like a survival instinct to get away from those situations, yeah, the situations that created themselves when we were together.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you talk about that, because I don't want to dig into your on the podcast like dive into your divorce, but what triggered me, or what I thought about when you were talking about that, is that you're and it's probably, though, not a good word to use for an ex-wife but your love for that person changed. You know, like, at one point, your love was this is my spouse and we're married. And then there now, your love is. You know, potentially, your love is the good will that you have for her as a human being. Like you're, like, yeah, i don't have any romantic interest in this woman. However, you know, here's like I don't. I don't wish her ill either. I'm not like, yeah, i think she should die. You know what I mean. Like you're not, you're not saying anything bad about her and you're not, you know, but you're. At the same time, you're like, yeah, but I don't have any interest in, you know, any kind of romantic relationship or even a friendship. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like, you're not going to hang out with your ex-wife. You know what I mean. So, yeah, it's a little awkward. Yeah, slightly awkward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm losing the thought. Sorry It's, but there's that spectrum, right, And I guess it's a spectrum of conditions or something to do with attachment, Like I don't know. I feel like, oh, oh, here's the thought is even in relationships that last and that love or affection or goodwill, I think, evolves over time. Oh yeah. Like you know, for romantic partnerships, the romance wanes and it becomes more about commitment or devotion or, you know, trust. I forget the Well comfort too.
Speaker 2:So to some extent like some people really, at some point you settle in to your relationship and your love has changed. It's different from when you're first dating someone, you know, and it's a constantly evolved, but it's just as good. It's just as you know. It's a different. I don't want to say it's a different kind of love. I feel like it's a deeper love. It's a, like you know, there's been studies Like, if you're in a loving relationship, that your blood pressure is lower when you're near that person and you're less stressed when you're near that person and you're like, physiologically, your body is saying this is a safe space because you've been around.
Speaker 2:Like you know, like this year will be 22 years I've been married. In August It'll be 22 years for my wife and I And we've known each other for 23. And so, yeah, I mean we. You know, i would be shocked if my wife came to me tomorrow and said she wanted a divorce, right, because I'm completely blindsided. But, like, both of us are like, yeah, this is, this is where I want to be, like, this is who I want to. We're going to live the rest of our lives together, you know, and so, but it does change.
Speaker 2:Obviously, in 23 years a lot happens. Like you. You know a lot happens to you as a person, A lot happens to the other person and a lot happens to the relationship where you go. Oh, you know, we might have to make a little bit of an adjustment. So I might be making an argument to your side, which is, if things happen in the relationship and you have to make an adjustment, isn't that making an adjustment in your expectations in the relationship, which means here's the conditions of our love? Yeah, i mean. I mean maybe I don't know, i don't know either.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying. I feel like I might be like making an argument for you.
Speaker 1:I think like, yeah, if we, if we go back to a mother's love not every mother has unconditional mother to love for their offspring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, so like yeah, and every friendship, every romantic partnership, like they all have varying degrees of commitment or affection, I think I think unconditional love is just us trying to describe the kind of love that is very I didn't silence my phone is very resilient, right That, like I can tell, and Dorian and I's relationship. Right now I'm doing a fair amount of misbehaving. She is super loving, super patient and I'm through poor choices, testing that. Yeah, not deliberately. Right, of course.
Speaker 1:I'm going around because I need to be reinvesting, right Like if every relationship I do believe is kind of like an emotional bank account. There's your Stephen Covey, there we go. Reference for the bingo board. I beat you to it, brian, and I've not been quote budgeting, right Like I've just been spending without paying attention to my income in terms of my relationship with Dorian.
Speaker 1:While I might have a huge balance on account of her and I having put so much in, that's fine. But if I start going into debt, i start losing some of that goodwill, i start losing some of that attachment, i start losing some of that affection. She starts, legitimately starts to wonder if I care, or legitimately wonders if I'm committed or interested. And everybody has their breaking point, right, like every relationship has its breaking point. Yeah, apparently that lady who still loves her son even though he's a murderer or whatever it is, she hasn't met her breaking point yet. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But maybe her weak spot is somewhere else. You know, like I know, some of our relationships weak spot, if I wanted to be a very dumb person, thinking from my rear. I know exactly what buttons depress to have the relationship ended. I'm not going to do that. I have no interest in ending the relationship. I'm looking to prolong it and protect it and repair it. But yeah, I think every relationship has a breaking point, It's just some have thicker armor than others.
Speaker 2:Well, here's another, here's another. I've got a couple other points. Another key point. Yeah, no, so another thing is So what you were saying is like the I'm trying to remember exactly how you phrased it Like basically, there's a point at which the relationship will end, like there's some kind of thing where it's like well, that would. Right breaking point. Yeah, that's it exactly. And so, like I remember my mother saying, if my mom's listening to this, then she's going to be like did I say that to you Anyway? No, she was like I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 2:Anyway, no, but she said you know, after you're together with someone and you have children, then to some extent that like changes a little bit. Your the breaking point. Like she didn't phrase it like that, but I'm using your words Like the amount that it would take in order for them to destroy that relationship or throw that cast aside for the benefit of the children is way sort of higher. Because you're now, we're more invested here, you know, and we want to raise these children And you know, thankfully my dad never tested that. But the point is like I think it's interesting that you said you know each thing has a breaking point.
Speaker 2:The other point that I was going to say is in the same article that I was just referencing a minute ago, they define unconditional love. So they say it does not, it doesn't mean that you love without excuse me, it's sorry. Yeah, you say it's not that your love is limitless or without boundaries. It says in its simplest definition, unconditional love means that you love without expecting anything in return. So like they're almost tweaking the definition a little bit and saying loving unconditionally.
Speaker 2:Here's the next sentence. Loving unconditionally means the other person's needs and happiness is just as important and meaningful as your own. You care for and you care for and love someone without any strings attached and don't worry about how it benefits you, which I think is a little bit of a tweak on that, you know.
Speaker 1:And I agree, i think it's not well, i agree and disagree. It's not transactional. Right. Like it's like hey, i did this for you. I want to cash that in and get a favor for me. Right. I think, though, that there is still that idea, there's an element of faith with something that, as you get closer to unconditional love, on that spectrum where I'm doing these things for the other person or for the relationship, trusting that somehow it'll pay off, or knowing that it's good for me, it's good for, it's just good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Good things will come. for doing the good that I'm doing and not knowing what those good things might be, it's having that trust and faith that it's worth it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the altruism, it's going back to altruism. I mean, altruism is basically that It's like hey, i'm going to do something good for somebody else or something else, without any expectation of anything in return for that. I mean, i don't know, i'm paraphrasing, i haven't looked at the definition of altruism, yeah. But that's what.
Speaker 1:I feel like it is To be a bit cynical. altruism involves a tax return. Yeah, that's true, but I don't I think Napoleon Hill said no, no, it's Dale Carnegie who talks about how, like you know, whenever, even if you give to a charity. I think he cited the Red Cross because that's, he managed to stand the test of time. But it's like part of the reason you did it was for the good feeling you get. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean I say that but I also have going back to another reference, to another episode, that is, this is taxing. I've read the studies. I've read the studies about how many people donate just for the tax return, i mean just for the tax refund, and it's not a lot, it's some. To some extent it's the ultra-wealthy, the people that are like I'm going to donate $2 million and get a huge because I need that, because I have $20 or $30 million worth of other things going on over here And if I don't donate that $2 million, so this is I mean, but those are that's like the top 1% or the top half a percent or the top quarter of a percent, you know, the really rich, billionaire people.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that takes us off on a completely different subject. Yeah, it does, and I think for the ultra-rich it's also an aspect of changing their legacy, or buying them time. Yeah, because it's. You could make a billion dollars, but if you give 2% of that, you're suddenly now in the history books as a philanthropist. Yeah. Yeah, you know. So, it's like why you know. So now you get the tax benefits, you can give enough to put you just inside the lower tax bracket. Right Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've seen some stuff where like, yeah, it's a total tangent, i'll back off. Okay, yeah, i don't think we want to. We had a nightmare when we did the taxing. We don't want to go back into that.
Speaker 2:This episode will be three hours long. Like how do we?
Speaker 1:title this. It's like unconditional love and billionaires are sketched. Yeah, exactly Yeah. What Unconditional love.
Speaker 2:Unconditional love and the IRS, no. So the other thing that is interesting in this like sort of going on that same idea is, you know, talking about the unconditional love being not expecting anything in return. This article goes on further to say that it is unhealthy for you to offer love without boundaries, but then again they say it does not mean that you love someone regardless of their toxic and abusive behaviors. As much as you might care for someone, there are still certain boundaries that need to be enforced. So it's all going back to the thing, like you said, definitions and like things like Because what that to me sounds like, it could be like I could interpret that as, yeah, unconditional love is something different than what I'm thinking of, or you're going to say, no, but those boundaries are conditions of my love, so it's like I said.
Speaker 1:I mean if my dog bit one of my neighbors or something like that and I had to put him down. Yeah. I mean I like I still love it. I still love the dog, i'm still attached to the dog. I'm going to cry. Yeah. Yeah, but it's just like there's supposed to be boundaries. Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:But I think that goes to what you were just saying, which is the breaking point. It's almost like you were saying you talk about a spectrum, right, almost like a love to Let's call it the love to unlove spectrum, right. So like, on one side you have love and on the other side, well, there's a sliding scale and at a certain dividing point in that it goes from love to unlove. And this is like my just brain coming up with stupid stuff. No, i like it. So that's the breaking point. That line, that dividing line, is the breaking point. And the question is, what pushes you over, like, what moves you around the spectrum Like? is it the conditions, is it the, is it the Not conditions? but is it the behavior? Is it the person? Are you looking at the other person and going, you know I will.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I didn't finish that sentence because my brain went on tangent, but the other thing I was going to say is you could actually flip this around and you could actually say you know, i would love that person if they were like this. And so how many people say that? So, like you know, in dating, you know people go. Man, i would really love that person. If only they acted this way or they dressed this way or they did this thing, or they had money, or they you know. So it's almost like unconditional love in reverse, like Or conditional love.
Speaker 1:I guess That helps. That helps a lot. And I have a problem with conditional Like in that kind of conditional. I have a problem with it regardless, like I would respect this person.
Speaker 2:Well, i would respect this person if they were just X or Y or Well, i've heard people say like man, i would That person, i could fall in love with that person, or I could date that person, or I could have a romantic relationship with that person. If only they had these two things you know like if only they were funnier, or if only they were Usually it's phrased in the negative. If only they were not so dry, or if only they were not so Like work out-y. You know like they just like to go to the gym all the time or whatever you know. But anything I'm just saying there, i know, and this is just one of those things. I see it on the internet, you know, it's like, it's not like a, it's the anecdotal, of course, but you see that. And the other thing is, i've seen videos too, and this is completely Going back to the clickbait we referenced earlier. It's like the videos of these guys, that.
Speaker 2:So the premise of the video is the guy sees a girl walking down the sidewalk and he approaches her. You know propositions like hey, how you doing? Hey, can I get your number, and all this stuff. And the girl's like no, no, no, no. And they're seemingly videoing from afar, right Like across the street or whatever. And the girl's like no, no, no, no, i have a boyfriend. No, i don't want your number, i'm not going to give you my number, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So then the guy goes in and gets in a like $250,000 vehicle And then all of a sudden the girl turns around and is like oh, hey.
Speaker 2:How? how are you? What did you want? my number? I don't, and I'm not. By the way, this is not I'm not trying to say this because it's sexist, but what I'm saying is I'm just using the example of a video that I've seen and so sure that's that kind of thing. It's like man, i would let that guy I'm not gonna give that guy the time of day, but then, when I know something about them, a condition, then all of a sudden, guess what? I have a paradigm shift.
Speaker 2:But that's exactly what it is is all of a sudden you're like I don't know, no, no, no, no, oh wait, now I have the perception that you have money. Okay, now I'll do that and like again, i'm not trying to say this in a sex way, so I understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it flips. It flips around where it's like the. The flip of it is that cliche, and especially in 80s movies where the The girl next door who's kind of homely.
Speaker 2:Glasses in the bun and then they take the glass, pull the hair down, right Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, where's she been all my life, right next door. Well, i think the difference there is attraction versus attachment, right like yes, yeah, yeah, it's, it's not really progress. Yeah, i mean, i think it's part of the progression of relationship where it goes from attraction to Oh, i had it and now I lost it. But it's like, basically, you go from attraction to I was like a affection, or romantic to attachment and.
Speaker 2:Some some point in that it's like a little bit of infatuation with each other. Like you know where you're both sort of like Yeah, exactly, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, i think that's, that's. This is man. This is gonna be going on. This is a whole nother episode. I think that's the spark. Like the people that talk about a spark in a relationship, i think the spark is when you become enamored with a person and you're like you're almost infatuated a little bit, but it's okay, it's infatuation is sick if, like, if you're, if I'm infatuated with somebody that has no interest in me. But if two people are infatuated with each other, then you're like, oh, that's cool, they love each other.
Speaker 1:They really like, are into other like anyway It's a person of cold water, i mean that does feel good. but it's really just positive projection, sure sure You know until until it grows you that? that in what is it? It's sort of like the Yeah, the sugar rush. People figure out who they really are right but you sort of get the strings attached so that you're kind of stuck with them. Right. right, it's evolutionary, it's very fortuitous, but uh, otherwise it's kind of annoying. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, so, i know it's all it's like. I said, it's there's. I feel like there's a lot of facets to it. So here's another article, since we're like coming up on our time, but this is an article that is solely and squarely on your side. So the title of this article is there's no such thing as unconditional love. You either love someone or you don't, right, and so one of the things that, uh, this person says is this was back in 2017. So it's not a super old article, not brand new either, um, but it says You know, the very idea of dismissing unconditional love probably makes your squint, your skin crawl, but, to be fair, most people who would dismiss this kind of idea are pretty cynical. Um, what they're trying to sell you is that the idea that love doesn't exist at all. So, um, Hmm.
Speaker 2:Because what they're saying is there. I guess they're at least their initial point, and it goes on a little further. But their initial point is If you love someone, it's the same as unconditional love, but if you don't, if you have conditional love, then that's not love.
Speaker 2:Hmm, so, yeah, so there's they're taking a little bit of a different approach in terms of definitionally looking at it, but um, but I think they also say um, or they also talk about other things in the article, about um, um, you know, basically people mistreating each other, and um, you know other things like that um, i don't know. What do you think?
Speaker 1:All right, i think that resonates with me. Um, it's uh, yeah, i just, i think that resonates with me and um, and I think that adjective that we've tacked on to love conditional or unconditional, yeah, is a response to realizing that people Call something love that isn't really love and and they call that conditional love, like right, that that seems to track very well with my experience, or what um seems likely, which I know is super speculative. um, well, this is another thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, go ahead. Sorry, i interrupted.
Speaker 1:Well, if I may change the subject a bit, i want to honor, honor, a commitment we made back when we Got some fan mail for the what is love episode. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:Ironically, I think I know who that was Yeah, ironically.
Speaker 1:But yeah, because we opened up talking about mothers and sons, exactly, but your mom Offered the the opposite of love, because we offered like we were assuming that it's love versus hate. But she was like she's heard that the opposite of love is indifference. Yes and I. I think in both cases, the result of indifference, the result of hate, is the accumulation of betrayals. It's the accumulation, you know, if there's small betrayals, that Garner's indifference In the erosion of the unconditional love.
Speaker 1:Yeah if there are large betrayals And depending on the temperament of the person being betrayed, that can Lead to hatred, like I think part of the reason you and I have our take that we do on on love is Some of we have similar temperaments. Yeah, i think more Assertive people might have more conditional love.
Speaker 2:Well, I think so, like back in that episode. I actually said That the opposite of love is fear, not hate. Oh, that's right. Yes, the opposite of love is fear.
Speaker 2:And here's the here's a really good thing, which I was crazy tie-in. Thank you, mom. Um, this article that first article that I referenced in here when I talked about the study talking about the peri aqueductal gray area in the brain, or fear in the gray or, excuse me, location in the brain, so, and as I read, it was often associated with unconditional love as well as fear conditioning, pain modulation and altruism. So isn't it interesting that the same area in the brain Is associated with unconditional love as well as fear conditioning?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm like there's no area of the brain that's. Oh yeah, that area of the brain controls hate. No, but there is one that controls fear. Mm-hmm. So there you go, mom ha.
Speaker 1:Well, and maybe the Now. Now I got it. Yeah, In differences and in that part of the brain right exactly Yeah, yeah, but another another article. There was another article that talked about studying different kinds of love and triggering it, and people and studying their brain and Unconditional love activated, like all seven areas associated with various kinds of love. Wow.
Speaker 1:So it's like, whereas Other quote kinds of love might only activate three of those seven regions, or hate and fear might activate two of those seven regions, like unconditional love. Or Examples of unconditional love, like a mother seeing a video of herself, you know, nurturing her child Yeah, activated, like all, all seven regions. It's sort of a presuppose is what unconditional love is, if, if they, you know, say that, oh, we showed a mother interacting with her child as That and that's unconditional love. It comes back to the definitions question of you know what do you mean by unconditional love? Right, right.
Speaker 2:What do you mean? I mean, and that's the and that's the thing I think we we hit on on episode nine or whenever we did. What is love is like The. These are the things that I think we always talk about on our podcast, which is Things that are not easily defined, they're nebulous, they're out there and also they're subjective, and I mean I guess that probably sums up many philosophical ideas of like trying to make sense of something that you can't really quantify easily. And you can't. I mean, that's obviously a lot of science tries to, psychology tries to like hey, let's look at the brain and scan it, and technological advances have helped us to see some insights about the human body and physiological responses to certain things. But you know, that's Still, even with all that, like I could sit here and say like, yeah, i know what love is, and you could say I know what love is, and our definitions are completely different.
Speaker 1:Right, so So philosophy was just like the first study, right like it's just Whatever. We didn't know at the time and trying to figure out right and over time, we started having specific names for what we're figuring out, like religion, science, politics and philosophies just Whatever remains that we haven't come up with another word for yet. Yeah, yeah that, the ambiguous stuff that it's hard to quantify, calorgerize, like you were saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, and that's why we're, that's why we're still talking about things that You know, greek philosophers talked about thousands of years ago, like before Christ. Right, we're still trying to like, even though we're using our language, we're looking back to, like epictetus and all these people that we're trying to make sense of the exact same ideas. So Yeah you know, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean it's uh, I just I, i feel like, i feel like, for me, like, so, did like sort of I guess not really wrap it up But basically for me the end result of this is Do I think unconditional love exists? Yes, and I think for me the definition of it or how that, like how I manifest that in my own life, is Just that I love, like I separate the person from Their actions, and I'm not talking about the extreme of the murder, like you know, things like that. I think those things are Extreme examples. But in a everyday life, normal relationship of just you know kind of stuff, you, when you're we talked about this before like when you're in relationship, your love evolves and things like that.
Speaker 2:And at a certain point in the You know, you're Like, i'm sure that I do a bunch of stuff that my wife is like drives me crazy that he does that, right, but it's not like a thing where it's like, yeah, but you know, i don't like the fact that he puts the toilet paper on coming over the top rather than under the bottom, so I'm gonna divorce him, right, it's not enough, but it's still something that's just like why do you do that, like you know and so Little things like that. You can tear it one-handed. It's my argument. My argument is it's over the top.
Speaker 1:So Anyway, but I know, i just feel like to me that's, those things are separate from the love that I feel for the people in my life, right, yep and yep, and I would add on, pile onto that that it's the way that you can, or the reason that we can separate The person from the behavior is that we trust You have that faith that It's still good like these, these little micro betrayals. you know this mic, yeah, little ways, that behavior, this unpleasant behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 1:The good outweighs that bad right right it. It's the belief that that good, always that bad, but With a consistent of negative experience that faith can be Eroded.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, when I think also a cumulative effect of Those little things I think you said I think that's what you're saying is you I use a lot more fancier language that faith can be eroded. As I Was just gonna say, the cumulative effect of very small things can end up being the breaking point, not just one thing.
Speaker 1:That's an atomic evidence reference. Is it the aggregation of small gains?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, and also the aggregation of small annoyances in your spouse.
Speaker 1:Or negative. Yeah, it adds up right, right Yeah. to where, eventually, like Some people would divorce over that it might take them 50 years, right Yeah, you know it getting annoyed enough, you lose sight of the good Yeah yeah, well, i think that is so bad at closing. I know man We're like okay and Bye.