Ever wonder about the philosophy behind your breakfast choices? Bryan and Nick take you through a culinary journey in this episode of "Help Yourself". Bryan and Nick start off with a simple yet innovative breakfast sandwich recipe inspired by Bryan's wife and McDonald's' circular egg trick. Picture this: a dozen eggs, baked to perfection and paired with turkey sausage and thin slices of cheddar cheese on an English muffin. Oh, and did Bryan and Nick mention Moon Cheese? It's our latest crunchy obsession that Bryan and Nick can't get enough of!
But Bryan and Nick don't stop at just food. They navigate the concept of hedonism, its definitions and its implications, especially in terms of food choices. Also the thrills of instant gratification but also the lasting impact of long-term pleasure. Bryan and Nick examine hedonism through an ethical lens and challenge the idea that pleasure can only be sought through selfish means.
And of course, what's a discussion about hedonism without looking at the hedonistic treadmill, the never-ending pursuit of pleasure? Bryan and Nick discuss the potential dangers and benefits of this treadmill in our lives. Is constant pleasure-seeking a path to happiness or just a ticket for an endless ride? They wonder if pain, pleasure and the choice some people make to live a life of sacrifice are all interlinked. As Bryan and Nick wrap things up, they emphasize the role of good habits in maintaining an upward spiral and achieving our goals. So, sit back, enjoy your breakfast sandwich, and let's embark on this hedonistic journey together.
Ever wonder about the philosophy behind your breakfast choices? Bryan and Nick take you through a culinary journey in this episode of "Help Yourself". Bryan and Nick start off with a simple yet innovative breakfast sandwich recipe inspired by Bryan's wife and McDonald's' circular egg trick. Picture this: a dozen eggs, baked to perfection and paired with turkey sausage and thin slices of cheddar cheese on an English muffin. Oh, and did Bryan and Nick mention Moon Cheese? It's our latest crunchy obsession that Bryan and Nick can't get enough of!
But Bryan and Nick don't stop at just food. They navigate the concept of hedonism, its definitions and its implications, especially in terms of food choices. Also the thrills of instant gratification but also the lasting impact of long-term pleasure. Bryan and Nick examine hedonism through an ethical lens and challenge the idea that pleasure can only be sought through selfish means.
And of course, what's a discussion about hedonism without looking at the hedonistic treadmill, the never-ending pursuit of pleasure? Bryan and Nick discuss the potential dangers and benefits of this treadmill in our lives. Is constant pleasure-seeking a path to happiness or just a ticket for an endless ride? They wonder if pain, pleasure and the choice some people make to live a life of sacrifice are all interlinked. As Bryan and Nick wrap things up, they emphasize the role of good habits in maintaining an upward spiral and achieving our goals. So, sit back, enjoy your breakfast sandwich, and let's embark on this hedonistic journey together.
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick. I'm Nick and I'm Brian. You know, if we talked about hedonism, that would give me lots of pleasure, but cheating Brian.
Speaker 2:That was a, that was, that was a never a truer statement ever has there been said by you.
Speaker 1:Oh dear, yeah, I thought you were going to comment on my vocal fry Like wow, you said pleasure.
Speaker 4:Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
Speaker 1:It's like was that a Bill Clinton impression?
Speaker 2:No, no, it was a.
Speaker 1:Nick impression.
Speaker 2:It was yeah. Anyway, what am I eating? I am. I've got a couple things I had from breakfast. This morning I had a breakfast sandwich and the, which isn't necessarily spectacular in terms of its ingredients or anything that's different.
Speaker 2:There's a couple different things that I'll share. One is my wife made a bunch of them, like she basically made like a dozen breakfast sandwiches so that we could just grab them and go. So it was really really cool this week last, this last week, because I was able to just oh, I'm hopping in the car to go. Usually I'd grab like a protein bar or something like that, but after a while you get tired of like basically eating a candy bar for breakfast and it just also sweet. Like everyone, I need savory and so so able to. You know, the ability to have a sandwich that I could just throw in the microwave is refrigerated. It's already got the.
Speaker 2:It was an egg, sausage and cheese sandwich on a English muffin and the cool thing about it was she did a special, different way of doing the eggs, where she took like a dozen and a half eggs and she put them in like a big cookie sheet and baked them in the oven. So it made it like basically made a big sheet of eggs, scrambled eggs, and then she just took a cookie cutter and like cut circles out of them and the little disks of egg just went right on the sandwich perfectly and they fit exactly and you don't have like it falling out or anything, because it's all bound, it's all binded together. Bound together and Regular verbs are hard. It's binded, yeah, and Isn't that?
Speaker 2:what McDonald's does. No, mcdonald's actually does a real egg, although they used to make the egg at the location Like they would do a little circle thing and maybe I could be wrong, somebody could correct me but they do like an actual egg where they don't scramble it, it's just an egg cracked into a circle mold and so it's a circular egg, that's not a scrambled egg, and so they basically pop that on there. I think they used to make those in the restaurant and now I think they get them like they make them at some central location and they send them to them or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't mean like at an individual McDonald's restaurant. I meant like however they make, oh yeah, construct the food that's been shipped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mcdonald's is not a scrambled egg, although they do have sandwiches with scrambled eggs on them, which is weird. They've got both ways, because they've got certain sandwiches have, like the regular traditional egg McMuffin or the sausage McMuffin with egg. Those ones are a regular egg, not scrambled.
Speaker 2:But then they also have like I think it's the McGriddles and there might be like a big biscuit, egg and ham and egg biscuit or something like that that they have. I think those ones are actually the same kind of thing scrambled eggs, but they have, like they're sort of folded over into like a square patty. So anyway, it was sort of cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna say that this is either the subtlest sponsor for McDonald's.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Or you can move on. Anyway go get an egg McMuffin. I'm trying to bring it to.
Speaker 2:McDonald's, but anyway it was good, though it was basically just a turkey sausage patty and some thin slice of cheddar cheese. They have these thin slices that are about 45 calories per slice and a whole wheat McMuffin or it's not McMuffin, a whole wheat English muffin and but the coolest thing about them was that they were grabbing go, so literally they were just stacked up in our refrigerator. When I'm running out of the house in the morning, I can just grab one, put it in the microwave for about 35 seconds and then hit you know, get in my car and I can eat it on the way, and so you don't have to think about prepping your breakfast or anything like that. So really, really good. This time what we're gonna do is we're gonna buy some of the. Instead of doing the sausage patties, we're gonna buy some of the bulk breakfast sausage. They're just like in a chub. They call it a chub, but like the little tube. I know it's called a chub, I know I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:I believe you and I'm laughing, it's just.
Speaker 2:So they get like a pound of the breakfast sausage like Jimmy Dean or something like that, and you cook it up and it just crumbles and then when you put the eggs in there, you just crumble the sausage into the eggs and you bake the whole thing and that way then you have an egg and sausage mixture patty that when you cut it out with the cookie cutter, that's already done. You don't have to have an extra sausage patty in there and it makes the sandwich a little bit more compact. So we'll try that see how that works. But it was really good. I'm also eating this stuff called Moon Cheese. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the podcast before, but I'm holding it up for you. I tore it off a little bit. Moon Cheese they come in these little packets and it's basically like they look like the trail mix or peanut packets you might get from a convenience store.
Speaker 2:So like it's like a little, I don't know if they're baked or what. Yeah, they're baked Well it's really crunchy. So you know corn nuts, how crunchy corn nuts are. It's like that. It's like crunchy crunchy and they have a bunch of different flavors of it. This one's garlic parmesan.
Speaker 1:It's like fried and dried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even know if it's fried. I think it might be baked or dehydrated or something like that. It would be like if you dehydrated cheese, but it's crunchy and the package is only about 160 calories and it has about 12 grams of protein in it, and so if you want something that's like crunchy and low carb, basically it's good. So I had this and then they had another one that was like cheddar some kind of cheddar flavor that I had. Yeah, and then Brian's beverage corner A little bit lacking in Brian's beverage corner today I'm trying to get some caffeine, but I've got my water bottle here with some nice room temperature water and a flat white, as the Australians would say.
Speaker 4:Oh, dear so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is a Costa Coffee Company. I think I did one of these a little while ago, a different flavor of it, but this is flavored coffee with milk in it, and so it's actually, I think, better than I remember the other flavor that I had. I think the other flavor I had was like a mocha or something like that, and I didn't like it as much, but this one is actually pretty good so, but it's also got a decent amount of sugar in it, so that's probably why it tastes good, so good, yeah, so for a canned coffee, I would say it's good, but that's my Brian's beverage corner. That's what I'm eating. What about you? What are you eating?
Speaker 1:I'm eating a cheese and fruit tray from Starbucks.
Speaker 2:Oh nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have this pension for eating off their lunch menu for breakfast. Yeah, I don't know, just the breakfast sandwiches. Generally don't do it for me. Yeah. Either the meat I guess I'm a snob but the cheese and fruit often hits the spot. Yeah, you know, they've got a little bit of brie in there, a little bit of sharp cheddar and a little bit of maybe it's white cheddar or mozzarella. Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. I'm definitely sure about the brie. It's like a little type of brie wedge.
Speaker 2:Well, you know the thing about there Go ahead I was just going to say. The thing about their breakfast sandwiches is that they're all basically everything there is microwaved, so it's like it's pre. They just have it and they throw it in a microwave, in one of those microwave bags, and you know.
Speaker 1:So I think that plays into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're not. It's not really that like their breakfast sandwiches are not good. For that reason, I think so.
Speaker 1:I would concur. So, yeah, there's no customization, I don't know. Just yeah, I think you're exactly right. So I mean, it's pretty bad when the best tasting breakfast sandwich is the impossible sandwich.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I do like that sandwich there. It's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I used to, and then I saw like a couple of long form YouTube videos about all the things we don't know about impossible. Impossible.
Speaker 1:Like how they produce it and the different chemical byproducts there are from all of it they do to make. To make what is it Basically? To make P like P, p E A. Yeah yeah, p produce something that is like blood. Like there's a lot of just untested biological processes that are still being dilated or Interesting. Yeah, it's. It's scared me enough to like not do it anymore, you know yeah it's kind of like the latest run of artificial sugars.
Speaker 2:Oh, what's that? What's the? What is the?
Speaker 1:latest one.
Speaker 2:What is that?
Speaker 1:You probably. Is it like sorbitol, Like it's in all?
Speaker 4:the drinks, oh yeah, erythritol.
Speaker 2:Erythritol? Yeah, yes, I've heard. I've read some articles about it. Yeah, I've been actually trying to cut down on it.
Speaker 1:And I've just I've noticed my body have a reaction to it, that sometimes I'll get migraines or have to spend a lot of time in the bathroom shortly thereafter. I won't go into the details for the sake of you, I mean that's a different it's just me I would. I would totally load the audience with it, but I don't want to burden you.
Speaker 2:Different is a different different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a different podcast.
Speaker 2:Different podcast, exactly no, but actually the that food in full office, so be well, not fat food and empty, empty, all so be. Well, I've seen you eat that tray before because you a lot of times at our toastmasters meeting, you'll, you'll, bring that.
Speaker 1:I'll be nibbling on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's actually good. I mean, you're getting a basically some fruit, a little bit of fruit, a little bit of fat in there with the cheese, a little bit of protein.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's also, I would say I don't want to say more natural, but based on what you were just talking about, with impossible meats and stuff, it's like, okay, I'm eating a grape. It's like, yeah, are there things? Can you find something wrong with everything? Yeah, he's like, well, where was the grape harvested? How much? How much pesticide was it washed or was it? You know all these other things, but between a grape and a, a simulacrum of meat that was produced in the lab, I would I would probably say that the grape might be safer for you. But if you disagree, out there, yell at me, send me an email, yep.
Speaker 1:We. We like hate mail just as much as we like fan mail.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, exactly, it's real. Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1:And then and then, to sort of indicate the season that we're recording it. Yeah. I got a grande pumpkin cream cold brew. No ice requested, but ice was received.
Speaker 2:Wait, so that's in. A did you? Did you just take your own cup to Starbucks and have them fill it, or something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm one of those people.
Speaker 2:So you can do that. I didn't even know you could actually do that. So you can just take a cup and say here, put it in this cup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they they even incentivize it. They'll give you a whopping 10 cent discount, really, yep, and and the bigger bonus would be, I think, 25 stars on your loyalty program.
Speaker 2:For using a risk for using your own cup every time. Yeah, how have I not known about this? I would be taking my cups in to get get my nitro cold brew put into it.
Speaker 1:And the yeah. The downside is you can't order ahead right, you have to like walk in and order at the counter. So there is a cost, a time cost. Yeah. Now I have done that. If you're not in a hurry.
Speaker 2:I have done that, where I'll take the my nitro cold brew and I'll just dump it right immediately into, like my Yeti cup or whatever you know. So it's like cold when it comes out of the nitro and then you dump it into the Yeti cup immediately and it stays colder for longer but but that's a whole, but then you're not, then you're not really doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing, which is saving the use of a cup right.
Speaker 2:Arguably arguably it's worse, because then you're just like literally tossing a cup that wasn't even used.
Speaker 1:And, and you've got to now spend water to wash your cup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like worse. I basically have made it worse for the environment.
Speaker 1:That's usually what can. More convenient for you means more cost for other people.
Speaker 4:Right, right.
Speaker 1:Generally that could be a whole another episode.
Speaker 2:Seriously.
Speaker 1:It's like the, the dichotomy between, yeah, ease and inconvenience, or convenience and inconvenience. Yeah. It's like few.
Speaker 2:Well, also, what is your? What is your inconvenience worth? Because, certain things. Certain people will be like the yeah, here's, here's what, here's how much it costs for your convenience. So then certain people are going to be like well, I'll, I'll take that inconvenience for not paying that money. Okay, we're going off on a totally different subject.
Speaker 1:here we can just throw all of our preparation out the window.
Speaker 2:I was going to say we're just, yeah, we're literally like having a production.
Speaker 4:We've got to recycle bin. Well, maybe we should.
Speaker 2:maybe we should jump into our subject then, Okay.
Speaker 1:I also have my water.
Speaker 2:Yes, the cow, cow, cow bottle, oh so.
Speaker 1:I've I've tried to stop using it. I don't, I don't like it.
Speaker 2:How come you don't like the straw? You don't like the straw, why did you like?
Speaker 1:it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, you know what I think that's the short of it. I was going to tell you because I've been using that and every time I drink out of it I'm like this is stupid, especially when I'm in like a client meeting or something and I'm like, hey, how are you doing? And I have to like drink out of a straw.
Speaker 1:You look like a baby. Yeah, you look like a baby sipping from a baby bottle.
Speaker 2:Hold on, I've got my sippy cup here, hold on.
Speaker 1:Let me get a drink of water.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, seriously, that's the one thing that I'm like, but the thing is that there's not a good alternative in terms of like lids of them, because there's the ones that just flip up. They're a little bit more difficult to drink out of, like the one that came with this one. You literally, if you turn it upside down, it will like just basically dribble out slowly, so like if you want to drink, you can't gulp your water and I sort of I'm a gulper, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, the other thing too is this whole bottle's big selling point it's a glass bottle, no plastics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, what's the straw? The straw has plastic, right Exactly, and the mouth mechanism is silicone.
Speaker 1:It's like a pliable, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that's a. Mine's even weirder because so my water still tastes like plastic because it's going through a plastic vessel to get to a mouth, so mine's even weirder. It tastes so much better when I drink it just from the glass.
Speaker 2:So mine's even weirder, because it is a straw and the top of it is a rectangular. It's rectangular, see, look at.
Speaker 1:No, that's the perfect fit for your mouth.
Speaker 2:No, it's terrible. I mean, that's what they call you right, it's Brian Boxmouth Decor. Brian, the rectangle. No, but I'm just saying it does not feel natural to put that shape of a straw into your mouth.
Speaker 1:Is it a square peg in a round hole? It is, it is, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:It's a rectangular peg in an oblong hole.
Speaker 1:It sounds like it'll do damage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, seriously, so it's grapes, All right. Well, so you want to get into our subject here? We yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:We're a good one, I think Just want to have fun, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what Cindy Lauper said it once, we want to play with the idea or the spectrum of play.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, you know you've heard the phrase. All work and no play makes Brian a dull boy.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And. But then there's the all play and no work. Makes you a 30-something year old living in your parents' basement, you know so. Nobody wants either one of those extremes.
Speaker 4:Right, right.
Speaker 1:But I think a lot of us, either from circumstance or lack of discipline or both or who knows what maybe find themselves neither of those two extremes, but we want to explore the extremes in the middle and see what we figure out together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.
Speaker 1:So how does hedonism play into that?
Speaker 2:Well, that's the sort of the philosophical concept to get us into the food and philosophy that actually pull us into the philosophy aspect of it is that hedonistic belief is that. Well, there's a couple of different definitions that I found, which is interesting. The one that I thought was Objectives what?
Speaker 1:It's all subjectives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Even the definition of hedonism is depended upon your pleasure.
Speaker 2:Well, so part of the reason why is because I think that it plays into what we're going to talk about. One of them talks about the philosophy is the ethical theory that pleasure, in the sense of satisfaction of desires, is the highest good and the proper aim of human life, which I think has a certain implication to it. But then I looked up a couple of different people that had a, that were basically philosophers, that they defined it in a slightly different way and I don't know I lost my definition here from Epicurious. I know I'm scrolling right now. Hold on a second.
Speaker 1:Epicurious, or Epicurious Because another Epicurious.
Speaker 2:Not Epicurious, You're right, Epicurious is cooking and stuff like that like food right.
Speaker 1:Wait, oh my gosh, that needs to come up again in our podcast about food and philosophy, right, yeah, there's Epicureal, oh my gosh. Yeah, but there's Epicatetus, yeah, right. And then I think there's a website called Epicurious, which is like a pun off of being curious about philosophy. Yeah, okay. I don't know. I think I was picking on you for talking out of your butt and now I'm talking out of my butt. That's our podcast, everyone.
Speaker 2:You got to come on by now. That's what we do here. Yeah, we don't know anything, we're just trying to figure it all out. Anyway, can?
Speaker 4:we talk anyway.
Speaker 2:So here's the. So here's what I found out. So Epicurious Epicurious is, anyway. He calls it egoistic hedonism, and he says that the only thing that is intrinsically value in one's own Is one's own pleasure. Anything else that has valuable or, excuse me, that has value, is valuable merely as a means of securing pleasure for oneself. So I think that the reason why those two are like sort of play off of each other in my mind are that the first one says that it's the proper thing to do in life and Epicurious doesn't necessarily say that. His definition is more like that. It's not proper that it just says that the belief system says this If you're hedonist, if you're doing that, then it's the only thing valuable to you is your own pleasure, but it's not necessarily the proper aim in life. You see what I'm saying, the distinction.
Speaker 2:I'm making there is one says yeah, this is what hedonism says, so I mean a lot.
Speaker 1:And I think people who maybe describe themselves as hedonists don't have the strict negative bent to the definition, right Like, I think there's a stigma for understanding of hedonism.
Speaker 1:And then there's like the you know kind, I guess, are the welcoming the valuable definition of not valuable, let me just say it, and I think the distinction comes down to whether it's short term pleasure or long term pleasure, right Like, there's the hedonism, or the view of hedonism is oh, pleasure, like you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll, kind of you know, scratch the itch, try to get all your addictions appeased at once, and once you don't have a burning desire for anything, then that brief moment is a hedonistic high. It's like, well, okay, yes, there are people who are like that. Yes, they might describe themselves as hedonists or others might define them, as you know, call them a hedonist. But there's also, like the, I guess, enlightened hedonists that I think are out there, where they realize that even people who are charitable are really, when they give, they're not giving out of the goodness of their heart, they're giving because it makes them feel good. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, like they, like the view they have of themselves.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:When they give to a charity, when they see themselves as charitable, that gives them pleasure.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:I think we're all motivated by different things. Different things make us feel good, and it's just that society kind of maybe defines which things are worth feeling good about or you know are good to feel good about.
Speaker 2:Well, and that you put. I think you hit on what I was yeah, you hit on what I was actually going to mention about that is.
Speaker 1:I didn't mean to steal your thunder.
Speaker 4:No, no, no I mean no, you, you know you didn't hit on you didn't say what I wanted to say.
Speaker 2:You actually brought up what you. You took, you took the conversation to the place that I sort of wanted to go anyway, which is then my. So one of my next like points or points of discussion, which is talking about the right, rightness or the wrongness of it, cause it's an ethical study right, so he's talking about the ethics of this person was talking about Epicurus's ethics, right, so in that is okay. And he, and even in that he says the only thing is intrinsically valuable, right, so he's talking about right versus wrong, is it? The judgment comes with hedonism based on what you were saying is is it okay to seek pleasure?
Speaker 2:And some people out there are like very, very hard lined about it. Like, no, if you're, if you're just doing things to seek pleasure, it's wrong. It's like, yeah, but what if I'm donating to charities in order to seek pleasure? So that's wrong. You're telling me that's wrong, it's wrong to seek that type of pleasure. It's like, well, no, you should donate to charities but you shouldn't get any pleasure out of it. It's like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:But you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I think the judgment comes in. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like the the the rightness or the wrongness of it, the black or white of it, which is, yeah, you should do that, but you shouldn't. I mean, and even even you go when you went back to like sex, drugs and rock and roll. But there's a whole faction of people that says you shouldn't gain any pleasure out of sex. You shouldn't have, you shouldn't. It should just be for procreation period. There shouldn't be any pleasure Like you shouldn't be doing that because that's sinful in some way or that's you know lead you down the wrong path or whatever.
Speaker 1:That can be our little secret, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not one of those people.
Speaker 2:Um, so, so that I mean the but that I think that goes into that, like I said, is it is it wrong to to want to seek, so maybe where the line is like, and it's different for every person. So that's why it's interesting to talk about, because where is that line of yeah, that type of pleasure seeking is wrong, but this type of pleasure seeking is okay, and, again, that's different for every single person. So, you know, where does that? You know where, like, basically, where does that leave us in terms of?
Speaker 1:I think it maybe, and there's probably a handful of definitions for this term as well, but I think one clinical psychological definition I've heard for addiction is that you continue to follow the behavior even after it's no longer serves you. Yeah no longer, even even after you no longer get the benefit or without regard for consequences. Right, regardless. Yeah, even if, even though the consequences might suggest that you not do it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right it's.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize I could butcher that definition so well. I probably ought to look it up and recite it.
Speaker 2:No, I know what you mean. It's the seeking pleasure for it.
Speaker 1:It's like knowing, knowing you shouldn't be doing it anyway. Yep. And it's like the same behavior. Yeah, it's like. The behavior itself isn't necessarily bad, it's doing it almost compulsively, even when you're not the benefits don't outweigh the consequences, right, and you're doing it to excess. And even that excess might be not by external definition, but even by the person's own definition, when they're more quote sober minded, and that addiction could be well sex, drugs or rock and roll. Yeah it could be work. You could be addicted to work going to the gym to the alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are people who do go to the gym, who are addicted to the gym.
Speaker 4:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's the thing, is like games like I'd be I'd be super hypocritical and unself aware if I didn't bring up video games there. Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's. I think that's where the moralism comes in is where it crosses a line of it crosses a line of you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess theoretically anything in excess can be bad, right, theoretically.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, that's like one of those, was it not so profound truisms right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, too much is too much.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, too much is just too much. Too much is too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you shouldn't do it that much. But I think that here's the thing that where you get into the weeds, there is because and this is why these subjects are always very fascinating to me because there is no like I've been going to the gym. You know this. I've been going to the gym five days a week. Now for what? Eight months, right? Yeah without fail, and some people might say that's excessive and you can stop anytime you want.
Speaker 2:Well, and some people I'm just saying some people might say that's too much like for your age or your level of fit, like you shouldn't be. You should be doing low impact three days a week and you should do it like 45 minutes or you should, and that's all I mean, barring the health consequences. I mean, I'm not talking about that, but there are some people that are like, why are you killing yourself like that? Why do you? Why do you go so much? Why do you have to go every morning at the same time? You know, and the other thing that it triggered for me is that, talking about habits, which we talk about quite a bit on this podcast, because James Clear and Tomah Kammock habits and atomic hammocks also there's there's a really awesome. So you know but, you were powered.
Speaker 2:Well, the reason I bring it up is because isn't a habit, something that you do to excess, to to you know that could be a positive thing where you're just like no, I'm locked in and I got to do this every day at this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're setting me up for this quote. I'm pretty, pretty sure it's. I know it's attributed to Aristotle. I'm pretty sure he actually said it, as anybody, as anyone, could be sure, but it's. We are what we repeatedly do. Yes. Once, therefore, is not an act but a habit, and one of my favorite little things to do is to swap out the word excellence for anything right Like failure is not an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2:Right? Did you say that's one of your favorite things to do?
Speaker 1:One of them, yeah sort of did that's whenever I think about the quote right, Whenever I think about the quote. I play with you know, like a mad libs game. I convert the word excellence into a blank. Yeah and I just I'd like to put other actually like like three times to is true right that yeah hedonism is not an act, but a habit or alcohol. You know, drinking to excess is not an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2:So like three times a day. You do that. That's when you think about that quote. Right, like three times a day.
Speaker 1:Yes, every time I go to the bathroom.
Speaker 4:We are not what we're sorry, excellence, I just thought.
Speaker 2:I just thought of the in vein of the repeating the thing. I thought just replace X, replace X's excellence with pooping.
Speaker 1:Pooping is not an act but a habit. At least if you're regular, you know we are what we repeat, we repeatedly do. We are what repeatedly do. Do. That's, that's coming into. You are what you eat, yeah, or you are what you digest, oh man, it's takes.
Speaker 2:Well, so I guess the thing is that is that drawing those lines which we are like, I always try to do in my head, which is okay. So, knowing that it's completely subjective, you know, the seeking of pleasure is right or wrong based on your own version of things and your own reality and your own whatever you bring to the table as well as we, we use things that we do repeatedly and somewhat obsessively in order to improve ourselves and and some people. And so, depending on what you're doing and how you're doing it, some, even though you're trying to improve yourself, somebody might say, yeah, that's pretty hedonistic, though, because you're just doing it for yourself. You're trying to, you know, and you're saying, yeah, I'm just trying to improve myself. What's the problem there? It's like, well, don't get too big for your britches, as you would say, you know if we went to the gym, we're often maybe bigger than the bridges.
Speaker 2:No, you know how you solve that problem.
Speaker 1:Elastic waistbands never get too big for your bridges then, or challenge accepted there, yeah, well, I think I think you're touching on a bit of something and I forget what you said that triggered it. But I think the other aspect you know there's the addiction of whether it's too much, yeah would also be to what extent is the pleasure that you're seeking doing harm to?
Speaker 4:others.
Speaker 1:Yes, or to society. So we come, come back to your. You know you dumping your nitro my Starbucks cup drinks into your Yeti. You know, like, like, you know you're. We were just talking about that and I think that's a funny example of kind of. What I'm talking about is you're seeking that pleasure of having a perpetually cold cup while also seeking the pleasure of being able to order ahead and get your drink quick. Creates an inconvenience for a cost that others incur.
Speaker 4:In this case.
Speaker 1:You know the environment. It's a small cost, right? Yeah, it's those little costs that add up and I think the bigger the cost, the bigger the judgment from rational people, but also the irrational people who say you shouldn't take pleasure in anything, right, it's like, yeah, for instance with sex. People who say it's for procreation. Only they've gone to the other extreme.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:It's like if because by one line of thinking I don't hold this line of thinking, but I can see this line of thinking, that's fairly straightforward. Right is okay. Well, the more you do something for pleasure, the less you're doing it for its product then, there's going to be less of the product.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. If the point isn't for the result but for the pleasure itself, well then, you're hijacking, and you're hijacking, oh okay.
Speaker 2:It's not go there, Oops no yeah, you have to click the explicit checkbox on the.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's a word. It's a word, I just put the wrong emphasis. Emphasis Emphasis on the wrong syllable. Yeah, and they were all over the place. Yeah, so there's costs or consequences, right, for the things that we do, and the more we seek that pleasure over assessing the consequence and costs to our self or to others. Yeah, it's where, like what is it? There's quote functional alcoholics, right, and there are ones who can hold a steady job and so on and so forth. They don't abuse, they're not like quote angry drunks.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:They don't use their relationships and, in a sense, they're only doing damage to themselves.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people will rationalize well, that's not so bad, right, but it's when those so-called functional alcoholics stop being functional, they decide to go grocery shopping while integrated, or they get frustrated and start breaking things or doing property damage or whatever else all the kinds of things that can go wrong when someone's intoxicated Then that becomes less quote tolerable, less quote acceptable.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that plays into it.
Speaker 2:The thing that I was also going to go into is the relearning of. I talked with you a little bit about this before we started. Recording is like a little bit about the relearning of pleasure. So like this whole thing is hedonistic. People prioritize pleasure right, or pleasure seeking Right, and in my mind we change our definition of that all the time.
Speaker 2:So there are things that I do in my job that used to not be pleasurable at all and now I actually have a certain sense of like, oh, because it's built into, like a sense of purpose for me, and it's just built into, and so I get a certain sense of a reward, or like a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a satisfaction, yeah, satisfaction, or like even probably some endorphins or some other chemicals that happen when I and I've developed that, though, over time, and that means that. So is that bad if I'm seeking pleasure in in that in those ways? Because then it's, you know, like I said, your, your, your definition of pleasure changes over time. So it just feels like, and it's, and even like, I know, having kids, you know, over time you're like, you know, and I'll say this too this is the second time I've mentioned Toastmasters, dang, it Is that is that did they get to?
Speaker 1:did they get to put an X on an adjacent square of the bingo? Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly they. So you're, when you first start in Toastmasters, I feel like you're all nerves and you're all like sort of I don't know. You're there to try to combat. You know, combat that or conquer that, or learn how to live with it, or however you decide to define that. But the people that I've known who have been in Toastmasters for long, long time, years and years, decades, there's, I believe there's, a certain level of pleasure that they have. I'm saying I'm, maybe I'm. I won't speak for everyone. I'll say for me. I get a certain amount of pleasure out of public speaking. And come into my meetings, and I mean there's every Saturday morning I get a little hit of you know good stuff, and so is that bad.
Speaker 1:Which you can't, which you can't say, and to your point about it being changing over time. Like when you first joined Toastmasters, public speaking used to terrify you.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it wasn't, it was nerve wracking.
Speaker 1:It was an evolution over. Yeah, that's right. It was an evolution over time, right yeah?
Speaker 2:Right, and so so now.
Speaker 1:I do it you learn a little bit.
Speaker 2:So now I got, I finished. I mean, I didn't finish, I got. I got the DTM, the thing that the goal I wanted to accomplish. And now my goal is to help other people in that pursuit or in whatever pursuit that they want to do through Toastmasters, but in an I'm pleasure seeking and doing that. I'm being relatively hedonistic, if you want to make that argument, and so is that bad that I'm being hedonistic in that approach or in that thing in my life?
Speaker 1:And even in just conversations, right, it was a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 2:It was a pleasure to meet you. It was a pleasure to meet you, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like, or anytime I have an exchange with someone, I'm I'm sorry if, if it's all one way, if it's all one sided, like where I say you're talking to me and you're getting all the benefit and I'm getting nothing out of it, I'm going to avoid talking with you in the future. Yeah, Right Like it needs to be mutually beneficial. We both need to get something. That's something Sure. We need to pass it out and replace it with pleasure.
Speaker 1:Like we both need to get pleasure out of the exchange, we both need to feel her, we both need to contribute to the concept you know like, whatever it is, to the conversation.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think I think sort of that goes a little bit towards another thing that I was thinking about, which is sort of blurring that line between pleasure and you know, because that's what that does To me. That's what that's doing is like your, your line, so like. So, as an example, we're so that the audience knows and they can come, and they can come if they're in Nashville, they can come watch us. We want to go to an open mic night to basically expand ourselves, even though I think it terrifies many of us that are going to go. We want to go because we've we've learned that putting ourselves in a situation like that allows us to grow and it allows us to get like a sense of accomplishment. Like I did something I thought I couldn't do. I did something I was scared of the do something. You're. What is it? What's that quote?
Speaker 1:Do do something you fear, do it anyway. Well, there's that.
Speaker 2:But do something you fear. Do something. Do something you're scared of every day or something. Do something that terrifies you every day, something like that, and we've all learned that you get a big sort of a rush. I mean you get a little from doing stuff like that. I mean if you, even if you completely bomb, you're like, yeah, but I did it, I'm done, like I, I went up and people didn't laugh at me, but I'm now I'm sitting down again and I didn't die. So then the next time you're like well, I'll do it again because I didn't die and I'll go and it's fine, like cause I'd say the reason I say I didn't die is because it's such a low standard.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying, everybody says that, everyone is like well, what's worst case scenario? Well, I could die. Like that's that, you know what I mean? Like that's yeah.
Speaker 1:So right and there is that the fear that people have of getting up like with the joke is that more people are scared of public speaking than they are of dying.
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, it's that, yeah the the. They'd rather be in the coffin than than given the eulogy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, right. Or they'll even say like oh my God, I just, I could have died Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I could have died, up there, so yeah, I almost died Cause.
Speaker 2:It feels like that. You feel like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to recover from this. This is this, is it? Which, again, is also like sort of assigning that importance to you know, to things, and I think that I think that probably we'll get into, like you know, when we get into our next episode. But the you know, assigning importance to things, I think has a huge tie to whether or not it's pleasurable or not.
Speaker 2:Because, like, as an example, when you play video games, are you like, oh my gosh, if I don't win this, if I don't beat the game, or if I don't beat this person, I'm playing against. Or if I don't, whatever, it's going to be miserable, I'm going to, it's going to be horrible. It's like, no, you haven't assigned that importance to that, you've just you're, you're getting pleasure out of playing the game itself and you want to win. You want to, but you're getting the pleasure out of playing, not necessarily winning, or at least you're maybe. You're getting the pleasure out of trying to win, let me, let me put it that way, so or trying to accomplish whatever goal, because it's not necessarily winning in a video game, but the.
Speaker 2:I guess my point is, if you don't assign that importance to that, then there's a higher level of you getting pleasure from that.
Speaker 2:So I think that's why we why we have learned in Toastmasters and in these other things that we want to do is you get really nervous when you think, oh my gosh, this, I, what happens if I fail on this speech? Oh my gosh, this is going to be terrible, I'm going to be embarrassed, and all the you talk about all the bad things are going to happen. Or and when you don't assign that. So as you go on longer and longer, you're like yeah, I'll give a speech and you don't assign a huge level of importance to that speech.
Speaker 2:Like you, you know that if you give that speech and you do something wrong, or you misspeak, or you use bad grammar or you use Oz and ums that you're not going to die, like you're not going to die. You know nothing bad is going to happen to you, right, and so then you can allow that pleasure to come in where you're like oh, okay, well, now I'm just up here riffing, I'm up here having fun, I'm up here doing something that's not going to nothing. Bad is going to happen to me Right.
Speaker 1:But.
Speaker 1:But I felt so I thought you were going to go a different way, and uh uh bring it up importance because I think the more like them I thought you were going to say that the more importance we give us something you know, the more pleasure we get from it. But I think, like talking a bit about that from the perspective of you know, when giving your first speech at a venue, whether it's a Toastmasters' Club or an open mic, is going to be the most terrifying right. It's new, it's the first time, so it has a sense of importance. But after the 76th time it does have less sense of importance. But I think that also diminishes the satisfaction you get out of it. Perhaps the less effort you'll put into it and therefore the less satisfaction you'll get out of it. Right that I think that quote unquote the heedless who are enlightened realize that more effort means more satisfaction. You know I don't feel proud of what I do unless I do my best.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And I don't. And it's hard to do your best if you don't think something's important. Now I'll say that and I realize you know like if I just get up and give a speech, that's not, I don't think it's important that I'm not going to put as much preparation into it. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I think there's something there that cuts both ways, and I know we're way off our intention here. No, no, we wanted to talk about the opposite of hedonism.
Speaker 4:Right, Well, I just so on that note.
Speaker 2:You were holding onto something, no on that note, just like I really think that that's the right. What you just said is, I think the danger in hedonism is, you know, the you know, the more so, like assigning an importance to something that creates a higher pleasure spectrum to it and then that pleasure spectrum changes. As we've already said, like your definition of pleasure changes over time and, like you said, less effort or repetitive thing. Hey, I have to give this presentation every Friday for the next two years. Well, about a year in, you're like, oh my gosh, I have to give this presentation again.
Speaker 2:Right, it's going to be boring and you're just like whatever Right, and the danger in hedonism is that is that, I think, is that you get to a point where you're like now I need something else, and that's that's when you go back to the name.
Speaker 1:There's a word for that.
Speaker 2:There's a or a term, the hedonistic treadmill. Okay, yeah, so, and I think well, that's good. I'm not the first person to think of it, which?
Speaker 4:good because I'm not the smartest.
Speaker 2:I'm not the smartest person in the world.
Speaker 1:It validates your thinking too.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know, and it is that idea, that you get acclimated to something. Yes. Or, like in drugs, you develop a tolerance.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So you need, you need more, either in terms of quality or quantity, to get that hit, to get that pleasure. Yeah, so that, yeah so that. That's the hedonistic treadmill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it also can as things you know as. As usual, those things can be flipped on their head, meaning you can get on a treadmill towards good things or you can get on a treadmill. So I call this the downward spiral versus upward spiral, and my yeah my philosophy of that is that you can use these things.
Speaker 2:That's why habits are important, because you can use a repetitive thing that is somewhat seeking pleasure, that is, and as you start to get more pleasure, you need to go to that next level. You've got that on an upward you know, downward cycle versus an upward cycle, right, You're? You're now, you're improving every time you're doing your. Hey, I need to go to the next thing. Well, the next thing is an improvement, the next thing is another improvement. The next thing is so now you're using that to ladder up to whatever goal you're trying to do, Whereas you know so.
Speaker 1:So like in the terms of drug abuse. Instead of taking more drugs, flipping it and having an upward cycle of okay, you got acclimated to giving speeches and toastmasters.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 1:So you need to like start giving speeches to larger audiences or or different venues, yeah, or you know, actually go back to seminary and get your, you know, was it your degree in theology or whatever Right. So to become a preacher. Whatever it is you want to do, like, go and go to the next level, Right? If you've gotten bored, go to the next level, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's the interesting thing is that when you have somebody who's anti-hedonism in my mind, I'm like, well, you're just looking at the negative, you're looking at the downward cycle, you're looking at the addictions, like the, exactly what we said. Everything else that has a negative connotation to it. You know that in excess, you know, is like you said, really it's sex, drugs and rock and roll, kind of that kind of thing, exactly what you've already mentioned, and using that obviously as a term loosely for negative things.
Speaker 4:And though I like rock and roll and sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know well, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Asperin's great when you have headache. Right, exactly. Well, I guess I'm stuck wondering and maybe we, maybe we save this for another time. Like what the opposite of hedonism is, because when we first started talking about it, I thought it was workaholism. Yeah. You know, like all work and no play right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Assuming hedonism was a stand in for play, but I don't think that's right. And then my next guess was going to be martyrdom. Right, like where yeah but I wonder, if it's, which one? Is it where you love? You love to feel pain. I think that like Satan.
Speaker 2:Oh, uh, yeah, oh wait, is it sadist? Or a masochist, or you're masochist, you're a masochist, masochist, yeah, sadist. Like to give pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So a masochist like with that, with masochism. I mean yeah, I mean seeking pain saint or masochist.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing the thing about it and, like you said, we will talk about it more in our next episode. But I feel like masochists at least the people who I perceive as masochists that I've met in my life or and I don't mean that in the sense of like physical pain, but is that they're more of an anti-hedonist than they are a masochist they have some side of, they have some corn of some sort of like philosophical or spiritual issue against pleasure seeking in any way. So you shouldn't gain pleasure. I mean in the Bible says you know, the money is the root of all evil, or the excuse me, the love of money is the root of all evil, is what it says. And but there's all. There's a lot of people who think like, yeah, you should not. You shouldn't be doing things because you're getting something out of it, you should be doing things because they're the right thing to be doing.
Speaker 1:That whole sacrificial love or right. Yeah, I can't think of the other phrases that come up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think that that.
Speaker 4:I think you're right. I think.
Speaker 2:I think in our next episode we can talk about the, that you know, the workaholism and the opposite of that as well as, potentially, you know some things to. You know, what is the solution to this? Like, I mean not solution, because there's no, really no solution, but what is, what is the sort of the end result? Where should somebody potentially strive to end up in terms of, you know, hedonism versus workaholism, or and or masochism, masochism as you say.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, I'm eager for our next episode and the opportunity to Google what the opposite of hedonism is.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly. All right. Come back for our next episode of Googling with Brian and Nick. All right, we'll, we'll, you'll hear us in the next episode, all right.