Remember those long road trips packed with a variety of butterscotch flavored snacks, or the unforgettable thrill of a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert? We do. And we’re taking you along for a trip down memory lane as we discuss the subtle philosophy inherent in these experiences. In our latest podcast, we journey through the complexities of Stoicism and Hedonism, drawing surprising connections with Eddie Murphy's standup, and addressing a listener's poignant question about love versus apathy.
Pleasure-seeking often gets a bad rap, but it doesn't have to be that way. We argue for finding a harmonious balance, where the pursuit of joy intertwines with life’s other necessities. We also tackle the concept of finding playfulness in the seriousness of work, something that has often helped us maintain a balanced perspective during stressful times. Whether it's embracing the 'free spirit' mentality or challenging the norms of homeowners associations, we probe the spectrum of life and the quest for equilibrium.
Lastly, we delve into the transformative power of play and gamification, a subject close to our hearts. We believe play can boost creativity, stimulate the mind, and even heal emotional wounds. Explore how the famous Mary Poppins adage, “A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down,” applies to life's challenges and the pursuit of happiness. And, of course, we couldn’t end the episode without discussing the importance of sleep - the ultimate pleasure! Join us as we blend humor, philosophy, and the pursuit of a well-balanced life.
Remember those long road trips packed with a variety of butterscotch flavored snacks, or the unforgettable thrill of a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert? We do. And we’re taking you along for a trip down memory lane as we discuss the subtle philosophy inherent in these experiences. In our latest podcast, we journey through the complexities of Stoicism and Hedonism, drawing surprising connections with Eddie Murphy's standup, and addressing a listener's poignant question about love versus apathy.
Pleasure-seeking often gets a bad rap, but it doesn't have to be that way. We argue for finding a harmonious balance, where the pursuit of joy intertwines with life’s other necessities. We also tackle the concept of finding playfulness in the seriousness of work, something that has often helped us maintain a balanced perspective during stressful times. Whether it's embracing the 'free spirit' mentality or challenging the norms of homeowners associations, we probe the spectrum of life and the quest for equilibrium.
Lastly, we delve into the transformative power of play and gamification, a subject close to our hearts. We believe play can boost creativity, stimulate the mind, and even heal emotional wounds. Explore how the famous Mary Poppins adage, “A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down,” applies to life's challenges and the pursuit of happiness. And, of course, we couldn’t end the episode without discussing the importance of sleep - the ultimate pleasure! Join us as we blend humor, philosophy, and the pursuit of a well-balanced life.
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick.
Speaker 2:I'm Nick and I'm Brian.
Speaker 1:I like pleasure spiked with pain. And music is my aeroplane.
Speaker 2:Which eating, brian, I do love it, I do love it. You know, I saw Red Hot Chili Vampers in concert, like recently, yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's, they're one of my. I mean they're a SoCal band, so you know they're pretty SoCal South California, right, yeah, south, yeah, south California. That's what we call it when we're. If you're, I can tell you're a native from South California, because that's what everyone calls it.
Speaker 1:It's like for all of our non-native SoCal speakers, I wanted them to know.
Speaker 2:Do you live in North California or Middle California or South California or SoCal, socal, anyway, yeah, I did see them in concert recently and ironically not to take us too far off from the whatcha eatin', but I did see them here in Nashville and I took my kids to the concert because my kids are old enough now that they can see such things and they experienced. Experienced a few things, I think for the first time, but like wafting clouds of marijuana, smoke.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Contact tie Right and actually it was a lot. Anyway, Unexplicable hunger, yeah, no, the funny thing was they were like what does that smell?
Speaker 1:Can't you smell that smell Dad. Yeah yeah, but you know the smell that's around you Like, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so no, we went there.
Speaker 2:But I realized that when I was, when we walked in and we got to our seats, I realized that it was almost exactly 30 years to the day that when the first time I saw the Red Hot Chili Pepper. So I was like it was very, very surreal for me because I was sitting there with my kids and then I did the calculation. I'm like, okay, this was 2022. I saw them in 2000, excuse me, in 1992, for the first time in concert. And so 30 years later I'm there with my kids, which I thought was anyway. It was very reflective, it was reflective.
Speaker 1:For me it's sort of yeah, like kind of looking back. Did you wonder or think to yourself at any point at the 92 concert? It's like man, I hope I can bring my kids here one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, well, and I will say that I was about the same age as my son when I saw them for the first time. I was slightly older, maybe about a year, year and a half older than he was when he saw them for the first time.
Speaker 1:So anyway, Rites of passage have changed a lot, haven't they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so anyway, what am I eating? Couple things. I actually wanted to talk about a subject, that on food. That is sort of weird. I went on a chaperone to band competition. Our high school marching band does competitions and during those trips you're on a bus and you're basically eating the same thing that the kids are eating and we give them these snack bags, and so the whole day yesterday I was just eating like just the worst, like just basically like snack food the whole day. Like I've ever had a day where you just eat snacks the whole day and they're not the and snacks are never the greatest, they're always snacks are just sort of snacks. It's like, eh, like this thing in the middle and I know there's going to be people out there and be like you can make healthy snacks, it's fine, you can eat a carrot or something you know, and um but carrots, all about carrots.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, this is not the type of snacks that we provide to the kids because they like because, they like the junk food. So so yesterday I had four pop tarts and I had like three granola bars and I had like a cake I'm trying to remember what else. I had a little package of two Oreos I had uh oh, we did have Subway for lunch, so I had that, but I had probably had three bags of chips and a Subway half of a Subway sandwich, like a six, six inch Subway sandwich, and what?
Speaker 3:else.
Speaker 2:That's about it, I think for eight Funyuns for the first time in a long time. So that's, that was fun. Get it Funyuns, yeah, but it was just it was. It was one of those like throwaway days where it's like you're, you know when you like, you know when you go to like a conference or something, and it's like you you're on a set schedule and you're like you're everybody's got to eat at the same time because you have these breaks and you have this, and you got to be here at that time and it was like that. You're just sort of trapped and I did. I should have probably pre-planned a little bit better and brought my own snacks, but I did not, and so I'm recovering from a junk food hangover today. So so you know what they say about hangovers, right, they say a little, you know, have a little bit of hair of the dog. You know, usually you got to have have a little bit of a little bit of junk food in order to cure the junk food hangover.
Speaker 2:So I'm drinking this getting into Brian's beverage corner, I'm drinking this magic cauldron excuse me, flying cauldron special edition butterscotch beer that's like basically Harry Potter-ish. I had one of these a little while ago. So the same company made a root beer that I had a few episodes ago and so, but it's loaded with sugar and I will say it tastes really good but it's a lot of sugar, so I would need a lot of sugar to tolerate butterscotch. Oh, you don't like that flavor at all.
Speaker 1:Oh, not at all. It's like I think it's the part of candy corn I hate, or something about it reminds me of candy corn.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I could see that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, butterscotch yeah, and other things like. It's just just I don't know what it is about it. I don't taste it long enough to know why I ate it.
Speaker 2:Right, right, You're like just immediately. Yeah, that's like my. My father hated peanut butter, just couldn't stand peanut butter, and so so when they came out with peanut butter M&M oh, excuse me, not, it wasn't peanut butter M&M's. This is a long time ago. He, he took a handful of Reese's Pieces and thought they were M&M's and he put them in his mouth and he was like just no, no peanut butter for me.
Speaker 2:So anyway, yeah, that's about it. So, so I have that. So I'm drinking this flying cauldron. I'm going to be on a sugar high while we're talking. Sort of appropriate. It's a little bit hedonistic of me in order to to be drinking this much sugar and go into this much junk food, right, and then I've got my offset here, though just the plain Jane water bottle with my rectangular straw that I am, I'm going to be drinking out of. So that is what I'm eating today.
Speaker 2:Or at least that's my food talk for today. I'll see you in the next video, or what's your food dog?
Speaker 1:I too well, I guess. Following on the theme of snacks, I'm snacking. Dory likes to keep me amply supplied with food in my office and I often forget about it, so I'm kind of trying to like cycle my stock. Yeah and binging on snacks as a. For instance, I have Two unopened packages. I'm finished hit the open but I still have two unopened packages of these Chicken snack yeah. I think in previous episodes I've referred to them as meat sticks. Yes and I've shared. I've shared these with you, you know.
Speaker 2:I had one of those. They're really good.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's like 50 or 60 calories per stick.
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:I Don't know if there's other flavors or not, but the flavors the two flavors that Dory always gets me are the original, and that's sea, salt and pepper. Uh-huh you can tell the difference, especially between it and the other flavor, which is honey and jalapeno.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think I had the honey jalapeno one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the one that's 60 calories. I guess that's the honey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a little bit of sugar.
Speaker 1:That's the difference. How he makes, yeah, but it's, you know, pseudo, pseudo healthy, right. There's no hormones added. That For the chickens that were raised soy free, gluten free. They never use antibiotics. Yeah of course that begs the question what do they use instead?
Speaker 3:right.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like sugar free, yeah, but this is really sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah so what are you doing here?
Speaker 1:anyway, yeah, yeah because if it's gonna be really sweet, I would rather just have sugar, please.
Speaker 2:That's good though for a few generations of Digesting sugar so and, if I remember correctly, that's Because I like I like to have things like that or, like you know, low carb kind of meat, kind of things like that. But I Also don't you get tired of eating beef jerky. So if, like, if you have like dried beef that knows ones I remember are like more of an actual meat stick, like they're. They're moist, that's. I know nobody wants to hear me say moist.
Speaker 2:Mmm we used to meet Flavor gosh. Our audience is cringing right now. Just stop it, just stop.
Speaker 1:Well, you know that. That's why. That's why the bagel and the the cake are separated. The bagel is needy and the cake wasn't moist enough. Right, I wrote that joke.
Speaker 2:With the help of my mom too. Needy get it, can't canady get it. Well, so. Yeah well. So I know I was gonna say I have some Something similar to that, those meat sticks, but I got. I got them at Costco and they're they're really good they're, they're refrigerated.
Speaker 3:So they're well.
Speaker 2:So the cool thing is like they're. They're refrigerated, so they're fresh, they're more for, they're not like a product that sits on the shelf, that has a lot of shelf life. You have to keep them refrigerated. And then it says you're supposed to eat them within a week of opening them and they're long, like probably I Would say 12 to 14 inch long Meat sticks. So they're like really long, but the issue with them is that they're so they they're, they're really good, but the issue is that they're 220 calories per per one. So it's, they give the serving size and a half, which is 110 calories for half of it, and Hmm, so 220 calories, that's all.
Speaker 2:Like that's a big snack, that's Mm-hmm the court, compared to what you're talking about 60 calories. You can eat that and you're like, yeah, this really is a snack. I get a little bit of protein, I get something in my system, but I'm not like.
Speaker 1:120 is 10% of your daily intake, right?
Speaker 2:You're just doing the yeah, that's right, yeah, and that's all that's. That's a lot. That's a lot to give up if you're. You know, I Don't, for if you're anything, I mean that's a lot of calories.
Speaker 1:So especially when you're drinking butterscotch beer, which is probably 800 calories, 210, 210 calories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good. I say yeah, brian, don't eat the meat stick because you might want to still drink your butterscotch beer. Make good choices. Make good choices. Remember what's important to you. Little callback right, the hedonistic treadmill. You know, I hear that hedonistic treadmill has a cup holder on it. I usually put butterscotch beer in it.
Speaker 1:Oh, Whenever I'm binging on my deepest, darkest desires are like a nice cold glass butterscotch beer. Oh.
Speaker 2:Man. Okay, well, so let's get into our. So let's segue into our subject. Oh, you didn't tell us about drinks. Do you have any beverages that you're sipping on? No, I'm out. You're out, dude. Yeah, someone once told me the most important part of public speaking is hydration. What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna sweat.
Speaker 3:You're gonna get.
Speaker 2:Halfway through this episode you're gonna be like my mouth is so dry.
Speaker 1:Let me hear, you're gonna Macky mouth right right me following.
Speaker 2:So let's slowly segue into our subject. Last episode we talked about hedonism and that philosophy and how that was the seeking of pleasure and how that plays into what you do in life, how it affects good things and bad things and is it wrong or is it right and things like that. But I think in this episode we wanted to shift a little bit to that. The opposite of hedonism, which would be Would you call it and he'd, and hedonism when it was a call.
Speaker 1:I'm still on the fence. I'm hoping we can figure it out together. Okay, I've come across Three things. That might be it, or maybe it's some weird combination. When you're referring to it would be and hedonia and hedonia, that's right. And that's where someone can't get pleasure. They can't get no satisfaction. They try and they try. I'm just full of the lyrics today I guess it's, it's. It's my favorite kind of cliche.
Speaker 2:Like a rolling stone. Gathers no moss.
Speaker 1:Okay, I see, stop, I had. I thought two things and I had to stop myself. All right, which, which is the another possible, would be a sulfur strain. The opposite of hedonism is sulfur strain. Uh-huh another would be martyrdom slash. Yeah, I see her right and we sort of hinted at another one at the end of our episode of Like masochism or sadism or say that's like actually seeking another another kind of pain seeker. Yeah yeah. But is.
Speaker 1:I don't know, maybe, maybe that's a little bit of nihilism to where it's like, yeah, but now that I just thought about this, though, isn't? It isn't a massacist?
Speaker 3:But isn't. Isn't a masochist?
Speaker 2:somebody who. No, but like isn't a masochist, somebody who Derives pleasure from the pain that they're seeking? So then, how does that make them?
Speaker 1:They're basically just another kind of hedonist, right? They're just yeah, well, that's kind of. The thing is like which. Which part of the definition of a hedonist do you want to latch on to? I Mean the purse, the seek seeking pleasure. Okay, well, they could see right the opposite of pleasure right or they. It's Feeling pleasure okay. Well if you can't feel pleasure, let's say on Hedonia right.
Speaker 1:I guess it would be. I don't know if there's a word for it, but it'd be somebody who can't feel pleasure and wants and seeks to ruin everyone else's fun. Well, and I think, I think which is something like that fundamentalist person you implicitly reference, the one who's like trying to ruin everyone's fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and I and hedonists who can't feel the-.
Speaker 2:I feel like the anhedonia thing is like you've described. That or at least the definition that you pulled up, was like the inability to feel pleasure, you know like the inability to have those things, so like I feel like that technically is the opposite, but I feel like more like your what you said was a martyr, a martyr-y type of martyrs kind of mentality. I feel like that's more closely associated to in my mind with somebody who's the opposite of a hedonist is that they're trying to sort of show people like I don't need pleasure, or you shouldn't need pleasure either, in order to do anything.
Speaker 1:So kind of the self-restraint.
Speaker 2:Yeah, self-restraint exactly Interesting.
Speaker 1:Okay, one thing that comes to mind there, like exercising self-restraint or deliberately choosing not to go for the pleasure, reminds me of a practice sometimes recommended by Stoics where it's like oh.
Speaker 2:I like Stoics.
Speaker 1:Hey, yeah, you're living things are good right now. That's good, that's cool. Live on nothing but bread for a week just to remind yourself of what that's like or what how you could survive even in quote boring or spartan circumstances. But then it also magnifies your pleasure after the fact, right, Like you appreciate food so much more when you're back to variety and back to quality and so forth, as Eddie.
Speaker 2:Murphy would say if you eat saltines all the time, or if you're starving then somebody hands you a saltine, then you're like man, this is the best saltine I've ever tasted, right, yeah, if you remember that, you might be too young to remember that joke. Did you ever see that? That was a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Was that when he did his purple outfit routine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Eddie Murphy raw. Yeah, it was like the it was like a it was very, very-. It was very what's the word I'm looking for that. It was very monumental, or, you know, fresh, because basically he did a standup routine Before we had Netflix specials. He did a standup routine and had a movie about it. I think I talked about this on the podcast before, which is probably everything, but he had a movie about it and people went to the movie theater to watch his one hour thing, which nobody would do now because they're all on Netflix, right. But on that note though, I just looked up I was looking up Stoicism because I wanted to see the virtue or not the virtues, but the four you know there's four pillars of Stoicism, or something like that. I wanted to look up those, but one of the first articles that came up was Stoicism versus hedonism, and this is-.
Speaker 1:Well, that's probably the AI, knowing what you've searched before. No, it's from a place.
Speaker 2:It's from a website, so it's not because Google now has AI results, that pops up, I know, and it's remembering your previous searches to figure.
Speaker 1:Hey, you might be interested in the difference between-.
Speaker 2:No, what I'm saying is Anyway, what does it?
Speaker 1:say what is the article? Just ignore me for that one moment and understand so when comparing-.
Speaker 2:So most important distinction is based on the idea of pleasure. In Stoicism, pleasure is perceived as neither good nor bad, but rather something to view indifferently, and hedonism once focuses largely set on the pursuit of pleasure. So it's basically it's the thing that I said before, which is we were talking about in the last episode. Like is it where's the line? The right or the wrong, the good or the bad? Is this good or is this bad? Is this right or is this wrong? Like where's that black and white line Right?
Speaker 1:So the the pleasure is important to hedonists.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Pleasure is not important to Stoics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's you view it indifferently. So it's. You know, pleasure is perceived as neither good nor bad, meaning, hey, if you're going to if you're going to go seek out pleasure, fine, there's not like I don't say there's nothing wrong with that, but that's not neither good nor bad. We're not going to place a value on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that takes me back to a bit of fan mail. We had way back after our episode on what Is Love, where you know you and I were like all the opposite of love is hate. Duh. But, when they chimed in and said that they'd heard. It said that the opposite of love is apathy or indifference. Right is is no, I?
Speaker 2:think we said it's not-. Yeah, I made the assertion that the opposite of love was not hate, it was fear. Oh, wait, okay. That person that person said- they sent an email that said that actually, no, they had heard that it was indifference, that it was you know, that it was something that it was, you know.
Speaker 1:But they actually sort of said, yeah, your definition sort of makes a little bit of sense, so anyway, Well, I like I like the distinction, because I think it's kind of like what we're talking about here, where, in its own way, neutrality is is an extreme.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well not to take us too far off. But, like the-, the, you know the virtues. The stoic virtues are wisdom, justice, courage and moderation, and I think moderation is the one that really gets into the hedonistic stuff. Where we're talking about is like where I think we talked about in the last episode, which is, yeah, you know, anything not in moderation is probably not good, like if you're you know, if you're seeking pleasure all the time and it's getting out of control, then you know, and one of the virtues of stoic, the stoic belief is, or stoicism, is that, moderation of, yeah, seek pleasure, but do it in moderation, I would think.
Speaker 1:Well, in the definition of seeking pleasure, it at least the one that I saw was that it's also avoiding pain, right? It's not just Right. And in an end, at the risk of repeating myself in its own way, I think there comes a point where seeking pleasure becomes pain, painful, right, because through overexposure, it's just not as fun anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, you kind of come back to hedonic treadmill. Yeah, um. So so what do you do Like? Do you run faster on the treadmill and start doing damage to yourself?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. To take the metaphor, maybe two literally. Or do you get off the treadmill Right and Right? Avoid the pain of boredom, avoid the pain of you know your damage from having excess, and seek that equilibrium, seek that balance and get pleasure elsewhere, like, perhaps by resting, like, because taking a break from something you've been doing too much of yeah, Offers pleasure, right? Yes, and is avoiding pain of too much of a good thing.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So I think how to say I think hedonists get a bad rap. Maybe I'm too much of a hedonist, but I think that there's what people who have latched onto the philosophy that's like appropriate have a hard time explaining.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And do wants of it. You know like what they mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then there's like what everyone hears when they're using these words in the ways that they do, and it's like, oh, you're just an addict, you're addicted to everything you want-. Right you only want to feel good, Um it's like people, be damned, yeah, and I don't understand. I never understood that, because I get pleasure out of being a good person, right, but I'm saying who doesn't want to feel good? I don't feel good when I think I'm feeling good.
Speaker 2:Like who doesn't want to feel good? Like yeah, to me that's always like all you want to do is seek pleasure. You're like yeah, why would you not? I don't understand what's the alternative? Seeking pain, right, exactly, or avoiding pleasure? I guess you could say avoiding pleasure, but that's what we're sort of talking about. Is the people like? Basically, some people are like no, I don't want, I'm going to refuse doing that because it's too much pleasure, it gives me pleasure. Yeah, it's. You know what I mean, so-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again I think that like seeking pleasure without any self-discipline. Right now we're talking about moderation um is misguided and is a path towards disaster smaller. Otherwise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's I like even that stoic it takes us back to sto yeah, it takes us to sto yeah, I was going to say even that sto stoicism you know that stoic belief of the indifference to me is a hard thing, because you feel like you should feel something about everything, like you shouldn't be, like you shouldn't be. And I'm not saying an opinion about everything, I'm saying like to just say like, eh, whatever, like I don't know, I mean, was it pleasurable? I guess I mean, but it was also not sort of not pleasurable. So, oh well, and here's what I feel like with regard to and maybe this is jumping too far ahead, like in what we wanted to talk about, but, like you know, I think at some point in this episode we want to get into like sort of balance between pleasure seeking and everything else, like where probably you should be, is moderation right? But I don't think it's.
Speaker 2:I don't think that it has to be that the thing that you're doing that's pleasure seeking, you have to like limit your pleasure while you're doing that. I think the balance is the overall balance of everything. So you can go do something that's pure pleasure, like you can go you know we've already mentioned video games like you can go play video games and enjoy them. While you're playing, the video games you present in the moment and you enjoy those and you get purely pleasure out of them. There's no other reason, or very few other reasons, or maybe that's the main reason that you're going to play them right, but then after that You're going to be going.
Speaker 2:How dare you, how dare you make such assumptions? I mean, I feel like the you know having that time where you have that exactly what you just said. Hey, also like I went to bed at three o'clock in the morning last night. It was very pleasurable to sleep last night.
Speaker 2:Like I was dead tired by the time I crawled into bed, right? So the fact is that, should I not seek? Should I not say, oh, that's, that was really great, I really enjoyed that sleep, like I'm going to do this because it's going to feel good to sleep. I don't think that's, I don't think that's true. I you know. To deny that, I think is strange. I don't understand if you're like well, I'll sleep, but I'm not going to gain any pleasure out of it. You know, whatever you know.
Speaker 1:What is wrong with you?
Speaker 2:So well and so on. That I guess sort of on that note is, you know, talking about sort of the balance of, you know, between the too serious person versus the person that's maybe too hedonistic or too, I don't know. Like the way that I which way good.
Speaker 1:Thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and well, let me say, maybe this translates a little bit better is that I feel like you could translate sort of pleasure into you know, I don't know. I guess we talked about like assigning an importance on things, like some people are like everything is important, so you have to be serious about it, like you have to be, you know, and to me seriousness is like a source of or not a source of, but an indication that you're not gaining pleasure, like if you're just like yes, I'm intently going about my business and I'm doing this and I'm right, versus the other side of that, which is we're not going to assign an importance on anything. So, talking about nihilism, like you mentioned nihilism earlier, which is that belief of you know nothing matters. So why do you, you know, why even care?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's a little bit extreme. Like nihilism is extreme, but there's also the just, you know, like I said, before it's getting close to Anne Houdonni, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like it's very impressive sort of mentality.
Speaker 2:Right and not that far, but like the, the, so what? Or the O well, kind of like you know it's kind of like an E or type. Yeah, but it can also have its benefits though, because, you know, ultimately I think that there's a lot of displeasure that can come out of assigning too much importance or a high level of importance to things or I don't want to say importance, that's probably the wrong word, but like building it up in your own brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in our what's it called? We have cliches for this concept, right, like in our native language, like he's making a mountain out of a molehill.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's to make to be even more. I guess others might say making something out of nothing, but I think that's even worse. Right, like a molehill is something.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:It's just. It's not a mountain.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You're over stating it, you're over feeling it, you're over. Yeah, you're making it more important than it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Making it bigger than it is.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think I also think the perception to you like, as an example, neither you or I want to be fired by our clients and or our employer, and you know so we are. You assign a certain level of importance to the work that you do for your business, for whatever career you're in right To ensure that, yeah, you're overall great success and so. So there's a certain level of importance, so there's also a certain level of seriousness that you bring to it. You know is that oh, this is important.
Speaker 2:This is a thing that I need to be serious about because I could you know I could be fired. But I will say that you know many people who I've met that you know sort of blur that line in their professional life where they're like no, I bring a playful attitude to the things that I think, even the things I think are important. You, you know you sort of have, you're bringing that pleasure into that, you know, you know into that arena and you're blurring the line between those two things.
Speaker 1:So that's what I'm do. I'm one of my little personal mantras of sorts, or things I have to remind myself of.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am a fun loving professional.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's one of my you know identity statements.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, and I was thinking of the spoonful of sugar kind of belief. You know where We've talked about this before.
Speaker 2:No, we've talked about this before and actually I remember somebody gave a speech it wasn't you, actually, it was somebody in our Toastmasters Club that gave a speech about maybe it was you, I don't know. It was it you pair a thing that you want to do, or a thing that you are trying to do with something that is so like. For instance, in your case, you might say, hey, I would like to exercise, but I also want to play video games. Okay, I'm going to get a treadmill, I'm going to walk on the treadmill anytime. I'm playing video games. So you're going to, you know, you're going to stand up and you're going to be on the treadmill. So you're like, I'm getting my exercise but I'm also getting the other thing, and you're pairing those two things with each other, which I think is pleasure seeking for a benefit, right. Pleasure seeking to get something done that you perceive is not pleasurable maybe.
Speaker 1:No, it's self-discipline and seeking pleasure right. It's finding a balance. Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha. And I don't in terms of like who said that. I don't remember exactly. I remember hearing that concept in atomic habits, though.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, there's or it doesn't. It could be stacking like, pairing them, like that where they're co Located, so to speak right walking while gaming. Yes it could also be pairing like chronologically. So it's like okay, if, um, if I walk on the treadmill for 30 minutes, then I can. That's when I can play games right for the evening. Right, yeah, it's like I it's Before this, after this sort of thing right. So you take it like an existing habit and you add something to either the front of it or the end. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean that's basically. Yeah, like I got to be taking my allergy medicine right reliably every day in the morning because I'd say okay every time. You know I had to have it a brush in my teeth. Yeah hopefully everyone does. Um, but it's like, okay, when I go to brush my teeth in the morning, I'm gonna first take my allergy medicine. Yeah, mm-hmm you know, and then it just Basically became a habit, cuz I Tagged it with no, anyway, that was. That was a bit of a tangent, no, no, not at all, I think.
Speaker 1:But but finding that balance, you can co locate, you can stack or, like you said, put the thing you want to do with the thing you know you need to do together right, yes, yeah yeah, I think good tactic.
Speaker 2:I feel like, well, and I'll say this, like there are certain people who At first I was thinking, like people that you, I've worked with in the past that I feel like they don't take anything seriously. So, like you're saying, you're a fun-loving professional, right, so take the professional off of that. And I've worked with people that they're professionals by their nature but it's like they're just doing, they're just not taking anything seriously ever, right and and I. But at the same time I realize that you know that there's a certain, I don't know, there's a certain amount of, I guess, as long as work is getting done and other Things are happening, then I feel like there's not a huge problem with it. But at the same time, well, and here's, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at the the problem that I've had with it in the past is because I've assigned a Different level of importance to things than that person is assigning and there that person is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead. No, so that person is Saying like they're playing this like a game, you know. They're basically like, yeah, this is all I mean, I'm just gonna come in every day, I'm gonna have a good time. There's no sense in me being negative and or serious all the time for this, because it's all sort of a game, right, and that's something that I need to learn more of, because I think I tend to. When I get into something like that, I tend to. I tend to lean on the negative of, like the high level of importance of things and then get stressed about it, and the people that I've known that do that. They don't get stressed about things very much, you know. At least they do seemingly don't get stressed about things very much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like what are you? What are you joking around?
Speaker 2:for this is serious right, yeah and that's because my, because I'm, I'm assigning that you know right or at least I'm attributing them acting that way as them not assigning a high level of importance to it, and I believe that those people would not say that. They would say no, I I think this is important, absolutely sure, but I also don't think that I need to act in that way all the time. I'm gonna treat this, I'm gonna be lighthearted about these.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah I.
Speaker 1:Think that's kind of its own spectrum. Right is like some people are, like any kidding at all is not taking something seriously. Yes then there's other people who you know, I don't know. Like I said, I'm a fun-loving professional, but as a manager, there's times where I have to Tell my team to focus up. Right, it's okay, we've. You know, we spent the first 12 minutes of this 30 minute meeting kidding around. Let's, let's get started on on what we're doing, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, it was cool to joke around. Maybe when went a little too long, let's let's do our thing, because we're probably not gonna have time to finish, or let's see if we have time to finish, because, yeah, there's moderation, right, you want? Right, you want to have your fun and get things done at the same time.
Speaker 2:Hey, that's a good right. Have your fun, get things done. That should be another thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things are fun when they're getting done. Ah, I've said Wow okay. I suppose I was caught themselves. That's another thing I've said.
Speaker 2:No, so well, and I think that I think there's a certain level of so like. An example is I was recently in Chattanooga, tennessee, and somebody was telling me about this place that is, I Think. They said it's like a sandwich shop and basically they make these really really good sandwiches, okay, but they also said you need to go there because it has. First of all, they said, if you go inside, it's like you walk in and it's like sort of like like the Hobbit, it's like all that whole inside is super awesome, like plants growing everywhere and just like free spirit painting and you know, like stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I think Dory would like and so so it's this place, but she also said that, that they have a farm.
Speaker 2:So then the next thing that she said is, yeah, it's sort of run by a cult. And I was like, wait, what, excuse me? And she said you have a commune. These guys, they started a thing and they have a farm and they grow things on the farm and they opened up that sandwich shop and all the money from that made it that sandwich shop goes into the pot and all the people live on the farmland, they all. It's all in a commune. It's like a community. I mean commune and.
Speaker 3:Unism, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So they, they, and, and so that was the first one that they opened in Chattanooga, tennessee, and now they're all over the world, they're all. There's one and there's another one in Tennessee, a different city in Tennessee, and then there's, they're all over, like internationally. I guess what she said, but it's the same thing, they're all run by the same. It's called the yellow, something I don't know. I should have probably looked it up, so they. Yeah, I'm looking it up.
Speaker 1:What are you gonna do, like hippie, not not to be derogatory? I'm interested because the yellow.
Speaker 2:It's called the yellow deli. It's called the yellow deli in Chattanooga and. When you pull that up, there's a lot of other things that come up that are Christian counseling, yellow deli and tattens. So it has all these things that the 12 tribes, 12 tribes org.
Speaker 2:So, like Christians, are trying to counsel them out of it's basically it is a yeah, and it is a Like she said it was a cult, but she's like it's that. She said they're not like doing anything bad per se, they're just you know you know, people get together and live on the same property. That Exactly, yeah, exactly, it's just the only difference is they put all the money into one pot and everyone uses the money. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's with the homeowners association.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, so.
Speaker 2:So anyway, apparently there are these around different places, but the thing that I was trying to get at with that is that's the you know, the free spirit kind of mentality of like, yeah, it's cool, like everything, you know, everything can, everything's fine, everything's gonna.
Speaker 2:And I don't know how I'm linking this with, like, pleasure seeking, but I just feel like that's a, I'm not taking anything seriously, it's just hey, it's all taken care of. We're just gonna throw all the money into the same pot and we're gonna live off of this and I'm not just I'm not saying that's a wrong thing, like I'm not saying I disagree with it, but what I'm saying is, on the other side of that is the super serious and very important, like you know, is that everything I talk about is serious and you know, I feel like that kind of thing is a free Spear. I call it the free spirit, like you said, hippie-dippy, you know for for a relatively derogatory term, but you know I don't have a negative connotation for hippie and I forget that others do, so I yeah, I mean, and I don't think I don't think there's any hippies that listen Like it because it rhymes yeah, I don't anything derogatory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in fact you could say that I'm in love with hippie she. I think she self describes as a hippie.
Speaker 2:I would say she's got hip, she's hippie ish and she's got hippie tendencies. She's hip, yeah, hippish, oh well, and so, like getting back to that, as like the balance between the two, we always thought you always tend to talk about the extremes, right, you always tend to talk about the person that's we talked about in the last episode, like, oh, that person that's addicted, this, or the person that these are like, the people in the middle are just, it's just like hey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I pleasure see sometimes, and sometimes I'm serious and sometimes I'm pleasure-seek and sometimes I'm serious and in my line of work I'm I'm always adjusting to. I Guess this is a good distinction and it goes back to my personality type, which is I'm adjusting my Seriousness and level of importance to something based on what the clients seriousness and level of importance is. So I've had clients who are Match yeah they always want to joke around.
Speaker 2:They're joking around the entire time and they're there, they're not. You know they're. We're getting the job done, but they're not. You know. This is a very serious, important thing, and I've had other people that are like very stern and very just yes, we need to figure this out and there's no joking about this and and and.
Speaker 1:A lot goes like. Like, you and I are both peacekeepers. You know, according to any Graham. Yeah we're different in that when I match people, I match to their opposite right, because I'm I'm trying to Keep everyone balanced, everyone represented.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I got something super serious. You try to crack a joke a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm not going to like try to, you know, convert them, but I'll want to take it down a notch, you know. Or Alternatively, if, like I said in that say, in the case with my team, we're 12 minutes into a 30 minute meeting, I'm gonna be like okay, joke, you know, I'm genuinely glad we had some fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't need to run a tight ship, but now it is time for us to you know. Go through her agenda, you know there's things we need to accomplish.
Speaker 3:We've got some things we gotta get done, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's time to be a little serious. Let's, let's take it a couple of notches towards serious.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, I think we do that on our podcast is we talk for a little while about serious and then I make some stupid comment, you know, and then yeah, and I drive the conversation back to seriousness, or or, or, or. I I'll take us on, a change it and you'll bring me back yeah right, exactly, yeah Well, and so I Guess where I'm with the thing I was gonna.
Speaker 1:Well, I think maybe some other tactics on pursuing balance.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Understanding that all this is a spectrum. Right, like you might, just briefly on spectrums, you might call something red, but really red is its own range within itself. Right, there's plenty of shades of red.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 1:And the difference between red and orange can get kind of blurry when you're you know like it gets hard to tell. Yeah, I think All of this stuff is on a kind of spectrum and it's up to you, the listener, to decide whether you're in a hedonistic place, whether you're in an anahedonic kind of place, whether you're in a Super serious place or whatever like. Decide which direction you want to lean and Counterbalance towards equilibrium.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like just just deciding, like, where you're at and how far you want to move back. That's like the first step. You know, yeah, it's making a choice of just where you are and then a second choice of where you want to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah um. Like me.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty content. In my well, Pretty content I say that and then I start thinking about some of the consequences of my video game hedonia right now and I like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm preaching to myself when I say I need to decide for when, when a decision needs to be made, but then it's like Decision of what are some things you can do to counterbalance. Yeah, that's what we're kind of going through together.
Speaker 2:Well, this the the next place I was gonna go is we'll hopefully go into your video games a little bit, because I pulled up a couple articles about, you know, adult play, so like, and that didn't sound right. Play for adults. So why basically butter? Why should you, you know? Why should you be? You know, why should you play games? Why should you Do things like like they talk specifically. They talk about board games, they talk about video games. They talk about other things like why should you do these things as an adult? And so a couple different articles have some interesting points. This one talks about multiple benefits of play. So it says it helps. The play helps by relieving stress and improving brain function, stimulates the mind and it boosts creativity, improves relationships and connection with others, which is opposite of what you said a minute ago, like your video game thing, where it's like it makes you not want to Can connect with others. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if the more dopamine you have in your system circling your system, the less serotonin you have circling your system.
Speaker 2:Well, and so it has, you know, has that thing, and it also talks about, with regard to relationships, that it helps develop and improve social skills. Play teaches cooperation with others and can heal emotional wounds. They're talking about playfulness in like, for instance that one, the healing emotional wounds. It says In a relationship like, for instance, you know, you can basically be playful with your significant other, like, meaning, like and I see that you and Dory do this often and like, basically, while you're at Toastmasters, you know, you guys sort of banter back and forth a little bit, like and it's all in joking, I don't know what happens when you get home, but but, but it's all in good fun, like you have a good giggle, and I think that's what they're saying here is like You're basically saying, hey, you know we're, you know we're.
Speaker 2:You have these playful behaviors back and forth and it's like, even if you were arguing, like maybe you had an argument on the way to Toastmasters or something, either a disagreement, that kind of like joking around about it, almost like heals it a little bit. It says like it's okay, like we had this disagreement, but that's not, it's fine and it's again. It goes back to that, placing a level of significance or Importance to it. It's like we had an argument Okay, that's not the end of the world. People argue right, fine.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean our relationship is doomed because right, you exactly, and so, and it's an easy way to deal with it, because it's like playful, it's not you're bringing light to it and you're, you know Could be bringing light to your own.
Speaker 2:You know your own stuff or your relationship. Make light of something, then to make dark of something.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, call back to yin and yang.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, well and so then this other, this other article that I found has a lot of other things in there, and one of them is, I think, a term that you've used in the poor is yeah, you've used in the past, which is gamify. So it's basically, you know you're gamifying something so to like, so it's in here to to gamify, doing the laundry you could. You know you could time yourself and try to beat your old score, so You're You're making it into like and which, which, honestly, is a lot of apps and things that you can't do, and which, which, honestly, is a lot of apps and things like that that are like the Weight loss apps and other things like that.
Speaker 1:We'll try to gamify this good thing that you're doing, right Gamifying, right you're creating a streak you don't want to break your streak. It's right to scoreboard.
Speaker 2:You know, or the biggest one I know of is, or one of the biggest ones is the Aw, dang it. It's the. The language app is that you learn a different language on? Oh, duolingo, duolingo. Yeah, so Duolingo is completely that. And then they obviously they monetize it at a certain point because they're like oh, you ran out of hearts, do you want more hearts? It's $4, you know, or whatever. Oh geez yeah, and so you're gamifying that.
Speaker 1:I need someone to gamify email.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, gamify, zero inbox somehow, like, so you get, like you get fake internet points for having a zero inbox or whatever it's like.
Speaker 1:Track the lowest count of your inbox the day before it's like see if you can get it lower.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, Well, even audible, you get it lower and a dollar will be sent to a charity, and you know you're squeezing.
Speaker 2:You know Well, even you, you and I both listen to audible stuff. Right In audible, they have little awards and badges, so like if you've listened to it for a certain amount of hours and this and you have, you know. So you have this little aspect of like, a little boost of endorphins, of like, oh, I got the social you know social butterfly app because I shared my thing on Instagram or something. You know what I mean. Like so.
Speaker 1:You heard it here, folks, so the last thing is Social butterfly.
Speaker 2:Actually I don't have that award. That's the one that. The reason why that sticks in my head is because that's the one I don't have.
Speaker 1:You completionist.
Speaker 2:Seriously no. So there's there was a graphic in this other article that talks about. So it says play for adults, colon Y, and so the bullet points they have there are live in the moment, which we sort of talked about. You know, be present in that, stop overthinking, which is pretty crazy I think video games help a lot with. Stop overthinking. You could disagree, but I feel like sometimes in video games you're like, yeah, I got to make this decision right now and you got a controller in your hand and you control it and you make the decision right and you just right, de-stress, boost your brain. Oh, it says, buff up your bod, which is, I think, what we were just talking about is gamifying weight loss and or fitness. Right, make friends, and it's fun. This is interesting because I didn't notice this before, but or maybe I subliminally noticed it. But it says Mary Poppins was right, we could all use a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, because it's fun, right?
Speaker 1:So Well, I think, even I think there's even another part of Mary Poppins where it talks about maybe it's even in the song itself where is take with any task that must be done, make it fun. And now it's a game or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, something like that, I think that's the same.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the lyrics in there. Yeah, something similar to that. I haven't seen Mary Poppins in a little while, but Same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like maybe we should all. I think I even read that in an article and I just took it for granted that it's in there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would actually like fact check that. But Maybe, we should, all you should, fact check that for me.
Speaker 2:All we watch.
Speaker 1:Mary Poppins, that's your job, as the audience is to prove me wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah fact, check us. That's good, I need to know just how wrong I am. Full time job to fact check us, you know.
Speaker 1:It's fun proving people wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm giving you permission to prove me wrong. Right, exactly so.
Speaker 1:You're right if I'm wrong, right.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's like I said. I feel like I feel like we had a good you know, made some good progress at that subject, the and I think the end result, though, is really just, you know, as most things are is like okay, you gotta have some kind of balance, like strike a balance here somehow. So, certain times in your life, you're gonna be serious, and I put this in on my notes as seasons of life, so there might be some periods of more play and some periods of more quote, unquote work or seriousness and less pleasure seeking, but, as you already mentioned, you know, those periods of less play make it more pleasurable.
Speaker 2:When we get to the period of a little bit of more play, where you're like, oh man it's so nice to not have to do X, y or Z or man, I'm so glad that I get to play this video game now, you know.
Speaker 1:There was a time in my 20s where I had two full-time jobs and they were separated such that I would sleep for three hours go work for eight hours. Try to sleep for three hours, go work for another eight hours.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:It did not last long, but it was a number of weeks yeah, Several weeks and I just kept oversleeping at each job.
Speaker 2:You know, oh, and they were like what's going on?
Speaker 1:Well yeah this is yeah, it was not. It was not sustainable.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I took it seriously and I was not playing games.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was, every spare moment was sleeping. Yeah, I was like okay, this is all I get to do, Even some moments that weren't to spare. We're sleeping.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, exactly. Yeah, All right. Well, I think that was very pleasurable for me. I hope it was pleasurable for the audience it's all that matters, you know.
Speaker 1:Notice he wasn't hoping it was pleasurable for me. It's okay, I get it. We can all be winners. No, it's because I know I asked him.
Speaker 2:Because I know it was pleasurable for you.
Speaker 1:You know, I know it. Ooh, I did have a few sargassums.
Speaker 2:Sargassums. All right on that note. All right, bye, bye, bye, bye.