Ever wondered how a kebab could lead to an epiphany about ancient philosophy? Join Bryan, Nick, and me as we embark on a gastronomic adventure that pairs delectably with the enduring wisdom of Stoicism. You're in for a savory treat of tales and musings that connect lukewarm chicken skewers and the irresistible charm of cheese curds to the stoic virtues that can anchor us in the tumult of today's world.
Peeling back the layers of our daily grind, we draw parallels between the pursuit of a meaningful life and the art of savoring a meal crafted from humble leftovers. From the quenching sips of tropical beverages to candid anecdotes spanning self-help literature to the silver screen, our exchange is peppered with humor and insights. We touch on the Stoic heavyweights—Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius—and the pillars of courage, resistance, and justice that they championed. Whether you’re a seasoned philosopher or simply curious about the stoic way, there's a seat at our table for you.
As we round off the conversation, we tackle the delicate tension between personal desires and the broader public good. With a nod to modern distractions like social media and video games, we explore the virtues of temperance and wisdom, offering a perspective that's as nourishing for the soul as the eclectic flavors discussed throughout the show. So, whether you're dishing out a late-night snack or contemplating life's bigger questions, we invite you to feast on this episode that's guaranteed to satisfy both your hunger and your intellect.
Ever wondered how a kebab could lead to an epiphany about ancient philosophy? Join Bryan, Nick, and me as we embark on a gastronomic adventure that pairs delectably with the enduring wisdom of Stoicism. You're in for a savory treat of tales and musings that connect lukewarm chicken skewers and the irresistible charm of cheese curds to the stoic virtues that can anchor us in the tumult of today's world.
Peeling back the layers of our daily grind, we draw parallels between the pursuit of a meaningful life and the art of savoring a meal crafted from humble leftovers. From the quenching sips of tropical beverages to candid anecdotes spanning self-help literature to the silver screen, our exchange is peppered with humor and insights. We touch on the Stoic heavyweights—Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius—and the pillars of courage, resistance, and justice that they championed. Whether you’re a seasoned philosopher or simply curious about the stoic way, there's a seat at our table for you.
As we round off the conversation, we tackle the delicate tension between personal desires and the broader public good. With a nod to modern distractions like social media and video games, we explore the virtues of temperance and wisdom, offering a perspective that's as nourishing for the soul as the eclectic flavors discussed throughout the show. So, whether you're dishing out a late-night snack or contemplating life's bigger questions, we invite you to feast on this episode that's guaranteed to satisfy both your hunger and your intellect.
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick. I'm Nick and I'm Brian, I hear stoicism is all the rage these days. Sounds like they're doing it wrong what you eating, brian.
Speaker 2:Probably, I don't know. Also, I think they're also dead too.
Speaker 1:Oh no, there's all kinds of modern stoics out there. I know, I think they're, I think they're, I think they're also dead too. So, uh no, there's all kinds of modern stoics, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:Uh, what am I eating? Uh, leftovers. Today, on this uh redacted day of the week, it is a I had a cold. Well, actually it wasn't cold, it was sort of lukewarm. Uh, mainly because I wasn't patient enough to heat it up completely in the microwave, I just sort of put it in for like a couple minutes, but it was a leftover.
Speaker 1:You ate my belly up.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I was hungry. It was leftover kebab with the chicken kebab, and it had purple onions, onions, like chunks of purple onions, some, uh, red peppers, some chunks of chicken, and then it had like a I actually don't know the sauce because I didn't make them myself um, but it was like a, like, almost like a. It had a little bit of like sweetness to it, but it wasn't like a barbecue sauce or anything like that. It was more like a almost almost like salad dressing kind of you know how like you do, like the Italian dressing or something like that. And uh, and then uh yeah, that was really yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was actually more balsamic, yeah, it had like a vinegar kind of feel to it, but it had a slight sweet pain to it as well. So I don't know, I don't know it was good, I'm telling you. I'll just tell you that um spoken like a true footy, right exactly, and uh, and the fact is that, um, you know, maybe it was good because I was hungry, maybe it was good because it's actually good, I don't know. So we'll never know that. The answer to that question I had that. And then there was also probably a quarter of a chicken breast boneless, skinless chicken breast that was also grilled, but that was just salt and pepper on it. And then there's a person in my office that lives in Minnesota Wait, wisconsin, sorry, not Minnesota. When?
Speaker 1:does that work? You said they're in your office, but they live, so they visiting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so they, they work remote all the time from, and I take that back. It's not Minnesota, it's Wisconsin and uh wait, I take that back it might be minnesota. I always get them confused and again, the people that are out there if there's anyone who listens for me those states is probably very angry at me right now because they're totally different places, but um, to me northern states all the same into my head the you know, the ones that get like feet and feet of snow, um in the winter and you're, you know, basically a winter wonderland up there, um, no, anyway.
Speaker 2:So when she comes down to the office she brings cheese curds from like that are like local cheese curds, like so they're like real true, like dairy farms up there, yeah and they're like literally wisconsin I would think so, but uh, anyway, it's just they're in a bag, like a plain plastic bag, with like a plain label on it that just says what kind of cheese curds are, so like they're different flavors. So there's. There were regular plain, you know, cheddar cheese curds, there were Cajun seasoning cheese curds, there was garlic and dill cheese curds and then there was also a ranch like ranch cheese curds.
Speaker 1:Wow, so there are all these different flavors. So is it all just chunks of cheese dipped in these sauces?
Speaker 2:No, it's like so, it's like the powder.
Speaker 1:So like, think of like no, they're not so like.
Speaker 2:Think of, like the herbs that would be in like a ranch dressing, and then same thing like garlic and dill. It might be like I don't know how, what they use for it, Maybe garlic, you know garlic powder or garlic salt plus some dill in there or whatever, but they just basically flavor them up.
Speaker 2:And the Cajun season ones are all red, red ish, you know. They sort of roll them in some kind of Cajun seasoning and uh, and you know you can eat them cold. But usually what I do is I'll take a couple of them and put them in a bowl and like heat them for just a just enough to like warm them up and soften them so you can still pick them up as like an actual thing and um, so I had that along with my lunch, which was really good. Every time that she brings those it's exciting to me. Also, I know when she's in the office because there's all of a sudden cheese curds that magically appear in the refrigerator. So she's like the cheese curd fairy. So I had a couple of those. And then Brian's Beverage Corner. I do have a couple of those. And then Brian's beverage corner Um, I do have a thing of water here. I do have a little bit of a theme going on here. So I've got, uh, a coconut pineapple bubbly which is, you know, like sparkling water coconut pineapple or boobly whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, boobly Sorry water. Coconut pineapple or boobly whatever, uh yeah, boobly Sorry. And then. But then I also have a hundred percent pure coconut water that is pineapple, so it's pineapple coconut coconut water, so I'm having a very tropical uh afternoon, and uh, and so those things are keeping my my quench, my quench, thirst, thirsted. No, my thirst quenched today, kind of.
Speaker 2:But, uh, I didn't intend to have that theme. I just grabbed the thing out of their fridge and then I'm like, oh, I'm going to have this, I'm going to have this. And I'm like, oh, I didn't, I did that just by accident, so it sort of worked out. Sounds like you had a craving.
Speaker 1:Uh, probably either that, or there was limited other choices it's like, oh, I can have this toilet water, or I can have pineapple coconut water right, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, what about you? What? What are you eating? I think I can smell it from here.
Speaker 1:I got a personal pan Jets pizza.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Greatly deviating from my standard. I wanted to get something different. I always have been a fan of white pizzas, pizzas, and I saw that chet's has a greek pizza. I don't know if it's limited time or what uh-huh but I pounced on that. They got the standard, like turbo crust and sesame seed flavorizing, but then, yeah, the the greek toppings are.
Speaker 1:Of course, you know they're premium mozzarella, but they also throw in feta cheese, diced tomatoes, kalamata olives, yeah, mild peppers and red onions that sounds really good for dipping, they, they give a nice uh, it looks like about six ounces, or oh, that's not six ounces, it's got to be like four.
Speaker 2:That's like yeah.
Speaker 1:Six ounces is, yeah, on its way to being a full cup, you know that's not right. Yeah, this is definitely four ounces, so half a cup of Greek dressing. Yeah. And so it's funny you mentioned your, you know, kebab dressing being kind of Italian-ish and sweet. This is fairly sweet, much more tangy. I would describe it as kind of like a creamy Italian dressing with a bit more brine in the flavor, and if I had to guess, I'd say poppy seeds. Okay.
Speaker 1:Kind of that unique umami sort of flavor that goes with poppy seed stuff. Yeah, and there are little black flecks in there, so that gives me additional wonderings. But yeah, so I'm really. I also added some light ranch to it because it doesn't come with sauce, so I wanted the pizza part to have its own sauce without pouring the yeah.
Speaker 2:The big Wait so you added. You added that to the pizza or to the. You added that to the other sauce To the pizza.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, so I'm using the Greek dip or the Greek dressing on the side as dipping sauce for the crust. Oh okay, yeah, so, so I'm using the greek dip or the greek on dressing on the side as yeah dipping sauce for the crust, you know, but it's really tangy. So I'm grateful that I have some blue raspberry prime nice hydration drink.
Speaker 1:Uh, these things are super flavorful, like like the first time I had it. It was, it felt like I drank all the flavor of you know, like a blue Kool-Aid in one sip, you know the entire blue Kool-Aid in one sip it's 10% coconut water, which is nice. Right.
Speaker 1:Although it is sweetened with sucralose, it's like the middle ingredient in the ingredients list. Sweetened with sucralose, it's like the middle ingredient in the ingredients list, so it's like total sugars. One gram includes zero grams of added sugar, but technically, of course, it's because they're using sucralose and not real sugar and yeah I still want that does to my body other than I have found.
Speaker 2:I sometimes have to go to the bathroom yeah little the coconut water is good, though, because it barrels added hydration. I think it's better for you than I think it hydrates slightly better than plain water. So like having a little bit in there probably just gives it a little more enhanced hydration quality, you know and also probably I think so, and it also gives it like a little bit of probably a little bit of a flavor difference or profile.
Speaker 2:And then I've found that coconut water is a little bit like thicker than actual water, like just consistency wise. So it probably gives it like a different feel just to have that 10% in there. You know, you're just helping you, helping logan paul train for his uh fight, his big fight, with mike tyson coming up, you know yeah, I actually reduced my consumption of these drinks after you found that out after I found out it was the Logan Paul of YouTube fame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, because I wasn't. I was never a fan of his stuff. And then I heard very distantly about some kind of scandal or drama, like yeah, I'm just yeah. I don't really need to have much to do with that guy. I never watch his stuff. Now I probably won't, yeah.
Speaker 1:And now I'm drinking his product. I probably don't need to drink this either. Maybe there's a better hydration drink. I don't know. It's not like I actively boycott him, but I also don't. I don't, yeah, I just. There are plenty of other content creators that interest me to pursue. I can only watch so much so, like he never showed up on my, my algorithms recommendations, you know, uh. And then of course, I also have water, water, just in case. I want something to tame this strong flavor yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:That's always good to have the uh the extra moderation, you know, yeah, some temperance some temperance.
Speaker 2:Gotta have the courage, you know, to have the water near you and uh well maybe, on that note, we should let the audience in on our our little, uh slight inside joke. I guess it's not going to be inside for much longer. What's our topic today? Our topic today, and probably the next episode as well, is going to be I will call it the, I won't call it the granddaddy, but I will call it one of the mainstays, the uncle of philosophy, or it's one of the, at least one of the big boys, heavy hitters, let's call it a heavy hitter in the philosophy arena. And it's stoicism, and I've always been sort of fascinated with stoicism. I had a friend at the gym who was really fascinated with it and had, like he had like like Latin words tattooed on the on his inner forearms that were like basically inner thigh, yeah, on his inner thighs yeah.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:He had your arm out, I could tell you yeah, his inner forearm, his inner. Oh sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, forearm his inner yeah and uh, but it was. You know, it's one of those things where, um, if you really get into it, even though this was a philosophy that was developed and began in essence before christ you know, three, four hundred years before christ, it was um, you know, it's something that's still very relevant. I think, like when I read it to me it resonates in. You know, I guess it's one of those things that I've said it before on this podcast but to me, self-help and philosophy and other things, if they don't make sense based on a changing world, like the world changes, and then all of a sudden you're like this doesn't really make sense anymore, then I feel like it's sort of a weaker type of philosophy. This is something that you could read the quotes now, you can read about it and you could live your life now, as you said, there are modern day Stoics that are like, yeah, here's how I live my life right now and it's based on this, you know, over 2000 year old philosophy. So so I guess start at the beginning is what you know in essence. When did it begin?
Speaker 2:I already said that it says somewhere around 300 BC is when it began and in essence, there were a number of philosophers that sort of you know grabbed onto it and continued to continue to develop it and move forward with it. Some of the major philosophers, though, that we know, or that are the most well-known, are Seneca, epictetus as well as Marcus Aurelius. Seneca Epictetus as well as Marcus Aurelius. No-transcript gladiator. I'm pretty sure that was like there was some storyline in there. I watched it, rewatched that recently. I'm pretty sure I was like wait a minute, that's, that's marcus, really like it's, he's the lead, the ruler or whatever.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, he was the one commanding the army yeah the lead. I forget the character's name right, yeah commanded by you know, until the war yeah yeah, I think he died in that war I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, spoiler alert to this like 30 year old movie, but um, I guess you can always have a spoiler alert.
Speaker 1:You know like well that the marcus reallyvis dying in that movie happens easily in the first 30 minutes, if not the first 13. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just had a flash in my head. You think that every time they mention Jesus getting crucified in Christian churches that they say spoiler alert before it? Do you think they?
Speaker 1:Too soon, too soon, anyway, spoiler alert before it, do you think?
Speaker 2:do you think they like too soon, too soon, anyway. Um, so the, I guess the, the, uh really nailed that right, oh gosh there goes our whole christian audience right there.
Speaker 1:They're gone not because it was disrespectful, but because it was a pun right, exactly, they just don't like puns, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So again, uh, the, basically that. You know, there there are a number of people who followed this, but the, those were the sort of the three big, uh what most well known, I will say, um, forefathers, and they, I well, I feel like it's not that they developed it more, but it's, you know, it's just like in today's world, they had the biggest microphones or they had the. You know that they were the ones that sort of taught the most people or influenced the most people.
Speaker 2:So they were. So what I'm saying is they were influencers in 300 bc, you know basically.
Speaker 1:That's a really good point, Because, yeah, the person who taught Marcus Aurelius isn't on this list you know Right exactly. Yeah, in fact.
Speaker 2:I looked it up and I had never. I said it. I think it's Rusticus is who they said, and I've read about Stoicism before. I never heard that name before and that makes me very ignorant. But um, but again, that's why we read stuff to make yourself not ignorant, right? So less ignorant, less, less so ignorant.
Speaker 1:Anyway you'll always.
Speaker 2:Don't worry, brian, you'll always be ignorant to me yeah I know that for sure, um, so the the thing I guess one of the things, the direction we're going to take the conversation is talking about the four virtues of stoicism, and basically the part of the reason why I like this philosophy is because it's boil. It boils down so simply and clearly, but then in its execution it's not just like anything else, where you're like, hey, this is so simple when you just look at the structure of it, but then when you actually try to live it, you're like, okay, this is a lot more complicated.
Speaker 1:Um, it's like easy, easy to understand, difficult to master, right, exactly simple.
Speaker 2:But yeah, exactly. And then we did have a little bit of a debate about what order to do these in. We couldn't figure out what we were. We were reading different articles and talking about different stuff, and it's like so in the the most fair way, or probably so, if you, if you're listening to this podcast, and you're like why would they possibly do it that way? And we'll just let you know right now. We just did it in alphabetical order, so that's the most simple way for us simpletons to divide this stuff up. But just so I can, so I'll put those out right now at the beginning. So I'll put those out right now at the beginning. The four virtues are courage, justice, temperance and wisdom, and we'll be discussing them in that order. So, yeah, let's see where can we go from here.
Speaker 1:Well, I, got to gather my courage and begin with that. What is, what is courage?
Speaker 2:And does the, does the dictionary definition match the stoic definition? So let's see here, where did my, where did my? Here we go, um. So basically, um, I'm trying to see if I can find like a, a good, um, a good definition of courage from the, you know, from the stoic perspective, um, I've got something basic according to this article.
Speaker 1:It just says courage is the ability to act in situations where we feel fear well, that seems like that collectorcom yeah, okay and that seems like that would track for, you know, or any other type of courage, um I mean, I think one of the things you know, stoicism faces the reality that you know we're yes, we're human, uh, which we're also animals like this, the human animal, and every everything with the legs, feel fear, you know, yeah, it's something we have to contend with, and sometimes that fear serves us and sometimes it doesn't. Yes yeah. It's like any other reaction.
Speaker 2:That's why I was sort of struggling with the, because a lot of this I mean just like any other, like true philosophy, I think a lot of it is not like, hey, it's not like epictetus came out and said I'm going to define courage for you. Here's what your definition of courage is like. You know what I mean. It's all quotes which is near and dear to our heart, right? Um? And that's why I've been reading I'm reading a couple of different quotes right now, and um, and so that helps to give you an idea of what they're talking about when they're, when they say it's courage.
Speaker 2:So, uh, one of the things that says in this article. It says, uh, epictetus was once asked which words would help a person thrive, and the quote is two words should be committed to memory and obeyed, persist and resist. And I feel like that's you know, sort of gives us an idea of what they were talking about when they meant courage is like hey, uh, keep going, you know, no matter what you know, uh don't give up, don't fail, like if you fail, don't you, you got to keep going, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, those are useful or interesting, Because I feel like there's a soft stigma that to be stoic is to be very passive. Yeah. Right, and it's not necessarily the case like I guess there are some ways you can resist passively yeah like being passive, aggressive right but but generally like to resist and to be persistently resisting, then you're gonna have to be active and maybe even proactive well, and I going on, that there's sort of the gladiator theme.
Speaker 2:The other this is this is from um this episode is really gonna be about the gladiator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Hey, we're doing a review of the gladiator, yeah how? So? Here's a quoteiator.
Speaker 2:Here's a good quote from Russell Crowe. It is no. So this is a passage from one of, I guess, epictetus' writings called Discourses, and this sort of sums up Courage. It says Don't you know, life is like a military campaign One must serve on watch, another in reconnaissance, another on the front line. So so it is.
Speaker 2:For us, each person's life is kind of a battle, and a long, varied one too. You must keep watch like a soldier and do everything commanded. You have been stationed in a key post, not some lowly place, and not for a short time, but for life. So there are sort of he's sort of making the comparison there of like a daily battle. That you know I already said. If it still makes sense today, 2500 years later, based on the world changing so much, then that's one thing. But the other thing is when you start to, when you read a quote or a passage like that, and other things that you've read in self-help or self-improvement pop up. So like that one is the you. You know, in essence, the daily battle. Like you're, you know the do one thing every day that scares you. This is straight from that, I mean this is you know.
Speaker 1:Feel the fear and do it anyway.
Speaker 2:Feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, exactly Things like that. And you can go through all the self-help books Not all, but many of the self-help books, uh, not all but many of the self-help books and they have something that has to do with failure or the fact that you know you're gonna have to get out of your comfort zone. Um, you know, it's uh, the again comfort zone. What is that like? Getting out of your comfort zone is just courage. It's just do I have? Do I have the, you know the strength, the inner strength to be able to say, like I'm uncomfortable with this, but I'm going to push forward, and uh, so yeah, it's interesting another aspect of resist that I'm reminded of is steven pressfield his book the war of art yeah, he talks about.
Speaker 1:He kind of personifies our tendency to procrastinate and avoid and negative self-talk and such as resistance or the resistance yeah there's, um, you know, quoting him, it's on the field of the self stands a knight and a dragon. You are the knight, resistance is the dragon. Yeah, and something he says the way resistance behaves is resistance will tell you anything to keep you from doing your work yeah you know, in your work being your art.
Speaker 1:You know the thing that you were called upon, the thing that you know when you're most sober-minded and when you are being your art. You know the thing that you were called upon, the thing that you know when you're most sober-minded and when you are being your, in your best self's sort of mind frame, like what you feel compelled to do yeah like that's, that's your art. Yeah, all the things that sort of drag you away from that are just different manifestations of the resistance. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We sort of have to resist the resistance you know, to have the courage to persist and resist our tendency to avoid facing things you know even if they're our own demons.
Speaker 2:Well, it reminds me of that. The quote many people have uh, at least many people over the course of the time that I've been in Toastmasters have used this quote. Um, and I won't read the whole thing, just because, but it's that Theodore Roosevelt quote about the, the, the man in the arena or the person in the arena. It's like so yeah, it's basically like a longer, obviously longer quote. That's why I'm not going to read the whole thing. But in essence, what there's, what he's saying is you know, that's all about courage, is you're the one that's fighting the fight and we don't really care about the critic or the person outside of the arena. That's like you know, and I think it takes courage that brings us back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly yeah. And have we mentioned Russell Crowe's amazing performance in Gladiator in the last three minutes? No, we have not. Well, I mean, come on, it's a good movie. I mean, come on, you got to admit.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm surprised you ever mentioned Sam Wise in Rudy.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, that is true, takes a lot of courage, it does you know?
Speaker 2:notice how I refer to the actor by another character right, yeah, exactly, yeah um, no, I just, I, I think, uh again, to be able to boil something down to like four things and then, to start with, you know, like I said, I mean think about it this way if somebody asked you about stoicism, you could, you could say four words to them, and those four words have a lot of meaning, but they're, but that's how distilled this philosophy is. It's down to here's what the four things are. And then, okay, you know, simple but complicated. So, um, let's see what else. Um, there was one other thing I wanted to say about courage. Um, can't remember off the top of my head.
Speaker 1:Um, I think the world responds well to courage generally. Yeah. Right, you know. The more times than not you know you stand up to a bully, they back off maybe not in the moment Right, but like after the fact, or I just I know that at various pivot points in my life, in my career, in my relationships, when I displayed courage, good things came, even if I was wrong yeah, you know having the courage to then say you know what I was wrong, like that is also is also, much more often than not, well responded to.
Speaker 1:So even if you don't I don't know want to be a stoic or whatnot, or don't believe in the tenets, there's just some practical tactics to at least from rote pretending like you are or the things they do you use as your, you know your, your life tool in order to live life by, like you know, whether that's a religion or a spirituality or whatever philosophy, um, I can't imagine any of them not having courage at some point in them.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can look at any, any religion, any. I mean you're like oh, even if you don't believe it. It's like I don't believe anybody doesn't believe that. I don't think there's anybody out there that you don't need any courage for life, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like like if, uh, if they do believe that they're sure they're not going to say so because they don't have courage to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly but that's like I said, it's another good point. Um, just how, how pervasive, I guess, this philosophy, is it within sort of everything else? Um and it's funny because I don't know, this is something that I don't know, I'm also ignorant of is you know, in essence, what religion they were? Um, whether or not they? Were you know, obviously they weren't christian. You know because this is happening before christ um, and so you know.
Speaker 1:But you know, or, if it was christ, could have compelled them I guess you know it's, it's all, it's all there.
Speaker 2:but um, anyway, just a just a side note. So yeah, so courage is number one. So number two is justice, which I think was really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, number two is the shit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is, but I feel like they have a slightly different, um, a slightly different definition of it, and that's why I'm sort of fumbling around. Do you happen to have the definition pulled up? Let's see.
Speaker 1:Of of a court like according to Stoics. What justice is yeah?
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I uh well so it seems like, do do what's right. Yes, it seems like do do what's right. Yes, um and yeah, I think, in terms of our common vernacular, I think it, justice is just what's right, right well, so you? Can seek justice, but justice isn't for a stoic. It seems that justice isn't justice unless it is embodied. Yeah, yeah. You know you combine Nike with with our, with justice, just do it right, just do justice.
Speaker 2:Just do what's right. That I. That probably fits me the most and the reason why I'm reading this quote by Marcus Aurelius right now. It says and a commitment to justice in your own acts, which means thought and action resulting in a common in the common good, what you were born to do. So for me, just they're they're saying justice is you aren't just making decisions about what you do based on what you want, but you're doing it out for the common good, like you're doing it for what's the best for everyone here. Right.
Speaker 2:And that's big to me as a nine, because I love that. I love cause I never make decisions hardly ever that are just like what's best for me. It's like, yeah, but what's the best for everyone involved here, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but as a nine and you know, remember, I'm one too a lot of the calculus isn't necessarily what's best for anyone, everyone. It's more like what's gonna bother everyone the least yeah, what's gonna cause the least amount of disconnection. It's not necessarily what's best, even if people disagree with it, because there's that courage element, or there may be, the courage element may be lacking. Um, it's kind of uh, what will keep the most people off my back?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, and I think that, yeah, that's not necessarily justice, you know no, I think it's true and I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think sometimes I, and probably other nines, make decisions that are not necessarily for the common good but are for hey, you know what? I'll just, I'll give them this one. I don't want the confrontation, so I'm gonna give them more and I'll take less. Because that? Because I don't want the confrontation, right, yeah? Or the potential confrontation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, but I do think that justice this article says that justice. Well, it says, of the four stoic virtues, marcus Aurelius said justice was the most important and he said it was the source of all of the virtues. And part of the reason why I think that he said that is based on some other readings that I was looking at or other articles I was looking at that said that justice is sort of like the overall ethical decision maker for you, um virtue, just because you're, how do you it's, it's, it's like it's the lens which you know, through with which you are making your decisions. That was a really complicated sentence.
Speaker 2:Um, it's, it's uh you know like you're you're every time you come to a decision, whether that's a decision to eat this or that, or whether it's a decision to fight this person or not, fight this person or do whatever you're going to do it's all filtering through justice. Is there true justice in this decision that I'm making? And so?
Speaker 1:I've got a lot of growth in this area. What?
Speaker 2:do you mean so much?
Speaker 1:I do. There's so much I do. That's not for the common good.
Speaker 2:Okay. It doesn't.
Speaker 1:It doesn't do harm, but it's not for the common good, Like um just playing video games, you know? Yeah, I'm super idle, Like I'm yeah maybe a modest amount of good for myself, and there's so many other options that would be, you know, more good for me, you know my own common good, um, but then, like, in terms of benefit to others, it's zero or negative, right like I'm right, I'm stealing time, assuming I'm not playing friends, that I'm stealing time from friends or projects or loved ones, like um, but then again, you know, some an argument can be made that by you having that downtime, by you having your, maybe that's a vice, not a virtue, you know.
Speaker 2:But the point is you've got that downtime, so maybe that is that you know you're better in your relationships because you have a little bit of time, that you have the ability to do something for yourself. That you're, you know, and that for some people that's meditation, for some people that's going to a yoga class, some people that's going on a run, some people that's playing two hours worth of video games, or seven or 12 or three days straight when you can't sleep.
Speaker 1:Um, and and I would say that going on a run or meditating or journaling or you, you know what the other stuff you mentioned like those have a net positive right. Like those would be better things to do. Oh yeah, so it's um yeah, and I understand, everybody has vices like you could swap out video games for smoking or binge watching or whatever facebook doom scrolling yeah but I think, yeah, there's, there's so many like other things I could be doing that time.
Speaker 1:That would be good for myself and others. That would be good for myself, right? So, like it would be, yeah, downtime, it'd be therapeutic or it'd be whatnot. I remember having similar thoughts last time I went on a was it a fiction purge?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember that.
Speaker 2:I remember when you went on the fiction fast. I remember that that's how long I've known you. I know you through all of the through all of the ups and the downs.
Speaker 2:The fries and the no fries F and the no fries, fries, no fries, no fiction, fiction, you know whatever? No video games. Video games, um well, and it's funny to me because it's that's one of those things that, um, you know, as I, as I was saying, you know, looking at philosophies, uh, to me that's not. It's like very similar to like when we're trying to debate the, like our constitution in the United States and we're like trying to think, yeah, but when they wrote this constitution, they had no idea that, like, you know, one of the and don't, please, I'm not like saying making any judgment or anything like that on either side, but you know, when they wrote the second amendment, they didn't know the types of weapons that would be in people's hands.
Speaker 2:So the question is whether or not they would have written the Second Amendment the same way if they had known that, or if they would have not written it, or if they would have done something differently. We'll never know the answer to that question, but it's the same thing. Obviously, before Christ, christ, they didn't have a contemplation of somebody sitting at home playing video games. So how do you apply this philosophy to something like that? You know what I mean? Um, yeah, it.
Speaker 1:It is kind of a I don't know the notion is a bit culture breaking, brain breaking. I'm reminded of, reminded of a philosophy video I watched on YouTube, let me see if I can find it. He was sort of modernizing another ancient philosophy. Actually, no, it was a modern. I think it was a modern thinker and it was even maybe an economist. This is a very vague recollection but at any rate, through pure logic, he was able to make the rational case that people who are in first world nations, who don't give a lot of their income to third world, or people who need help, are immoral, are evil. People who need help, right like, are immoral, are evil. And it was like I didn't like adopt that belief or viewpoint but it's like I couldn't. I just sort of sat with the walls like just a big dose of cognitive dissonance, right, because it's like I don't feel like a bad person yeah and I don't feel like he's right, but I don't know how he's wrong.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, I couldn't, I couldn't say like, where the lapse in logic was on either side. So it was just sort of a, like I said, a brain breaking thought and there's a bit of that here too Like, yeah, marcus really didn't have the luxury of having a Nintendo Switch or a smartphone in his pocket, you know, but at the same time it's like, is it really a luxury? You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I also think too that if you probably, if you studied the people of that time, there was something that was the equivalent of doom scrolling, like there was something that was the equivalent, like there was something during their was the equivalent of doom scrolling, like there was something that was equal, like there was something during their time gossip, I, I don't know. I mean, it's something though the closest equivalent, you know yeah the town crier and yeah and doing something of ancient belief systems.
Speaker 2:That said, gossip is wrong well, and I'm also sure that, like based on you know, if some people have the opinion that video games are a waste of time, you know, at past time, if you will, then there there was something during that time that was like oh you're so this is this person's just wasting their time doing this thing when they should be out, like tending to the crops or doing something that's for the greater good, you know well, well, sure, and I'm not saying that we should all be doing this stuff productive.
Speaker 1:It's just there's downtime, activities that are much more effective at, you know, at recovery, at restoration. And then, on the other token, you mentioned the Second Amendment. That's the thing, like I'm pretty sure the forefathers figured, whatever would come would get a new amendment or the amendment would change, like. The whole point of it being an amendment is maybe they lied to themselves when they told themselves. But they told themselves this stuff is negotiable, it is changeable over time to account for whatever else changes over time. You know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's we're the ones that seem to hold amendments as something that can't be changed, even though amendment means right to change like literally yeah, literally like that. When you amend something, you're changing something right, exactly um note. Note that I'm not arguing that anything should change around the second amendment yes, I'm just saying it's an amendment. I hate that. I hate that I have to do that. I hate to change things. We can't change things, I mean it's.
Speaker 2:It's definitely a nine thing to do that. You know that we're both basically saying anybody to listen to this. Please don't like be angry that we're on either side, Cause I'm not telling you which side I'm on and I don't. I really am not this, not, it's not what. This whole podcast is about.
Speaker 1:So you know.
Speaker 2:Lines are on the line yeah, exactly, exactly, hey. Just in case you were thinking about having confrontation with me, let me cut you off at the pass there.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, please don't just at the risk of tangenting this whole thing, I find the place I create the most conflict for myself is by seeing the other person's side and the person I'm talking with, who's complaining about them, thinks I'm defending them. They think I'm taking a side. Right.
Speaker 1:And that creates all kinds of confrontation, so like I always preface like I'm not defending them. I hear you, you think this, this and this I agree with you, but I also imagine this person is thinking this, and they're not entirely wrong either. You know, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, but that's also a nine thing to do, because you're trying to bring people together, like in.
Speaker 1:Hey, let's find the common ground. Where's the common?
Speaker 2:ground in this, like this, is I see this, can you see this? Okay, because, because I see this and can you see this, yeah, I can see that well, there's a sort of a commonality that, yeah, um, which takes we seek justice in our own way which takes a lot of courage too, you know, yeah, to seek temperance. So uh, the next one? No, I don't know.
Speaker 1:No, I won't be ready for temperance yeah, I don't think so um five minutes left.
Speaker 2:I know I was trying to, and that's what that was. The other thing I was going to do is, um, the uh, I'm trying to think, oh yeah, so justice, um yeah, so anyway, I guess like to just close that off. That last thing is is just when I was reading one of the articles I just talked about that being and I sort of mentioned this already, but it was that it was the um, oh okay, uh, good quote. Nick just sent me a quote a second ago. I'll read it in a second, but it that it, you know that justice is, is a, like I said, the way that it was described is it's like the ethics behind any decision that's being made, and so Cicero da Led what I don't know how to say.
Speaker 1:The first one, I think that's the text in which you wrote.
Speaker 2:Maybe it was Cicero, Okay, Cicero the good the good of the people is the chief law.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that that sums justice up in the in the best way, I would think.
Speaker 2:And interestingly enough, though, you know that that's spoken by somebody who's a ruler like our leader, and you know that's spoken by somebody who's a ruler like, or a leader, and actually, again, you know, is this is his philosophy was like, different than many of the other emperors or rulers at the time, in that he had this, you know, had a very what would I say, a very distinct way, or very deliberate way of making decisions. And you know, I think people crave that. I think people crave knowing well, they like, if you knew people, that people that make decisions based on some level of here's what, here's what. I'm filtering everything through, at least you can try to track with the decision, so when they make a decision, you can say, oh, I could see how you could arrive at that conclusion through these filters. Maybe I wouldn't have arrived at the same conclusion, but I could see. You know, it's easier for you to track and it's easier for you to feel good about it, or better about it, even if you disagree with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the good of the people, though is a tough spot from a pragmatic standpoint. For one.
Speaker 1:Cicero was assassinated and there's a YouTube video by I think it's CP Grey. He does a lot of cool like his animations appear very simple. They're generally a stick figure. You know like it's not about the video. It's more about the content and the animations versus theirs to help. But one of the videos he's made a long time ago, like seven or eight or more years ago, it was called rules for rulers. In fact I watched it as I was about to become club president. Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:You know, the first time, yeah, because I was curious, right, I wanted like, hey, what are some good general principles for being a leader in things? And? And the whole thing goes into how, whether you're a democracy or dictatorship, you've got to keep the people under you happy yeah, more so than the entire populace, because it's the people, people under you, who will take you out of your position of power, wherein you're really truly hoping to help the people.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so it's like if you don't keep the generals happy, then they will organize a coup, and so the good of the people is a bit idealistic, um, because if you lose your power right, then you can't help the people anymore right right yeah, it's a. It's a fascinating video. I try to watch it every couple of years just to remind myself of some of those rules for rulers. Yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 2:So here's a good quote, I guess to top that off is uh, this is marcus aurelius from the meditations and says uh, the object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane, which which I think is pretty much it's. That would be great. You just don't want people to think you're crazy or you're with the crazy people. Basically is hey, you know, but you also don't necessarily need to be the majority. So which which I think is a good point when we're talking about the good of the people or the you know, we're not talking about the majority here, at least, based on this, they're not talking about that is, you know, it could be a minority, but it's the best thing for everyone. Um, that doesn't make any sense. But what I'm trying to get at is it doesn't have to be just by raw numbers. What's the best thing to do if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:so sure you know, because the majority could be the insane in this circumstance. So if they're the insane, the good of the.
Speaker 1:I think the good of the people isn't necessarily the same thing as what, what the people want right right like what the people want is facebook, yeah, or, or slot machines, or yeah you know pornography like unlimited sources of money on-demand entertainment all the time. You know you're saying that everyone is hedonistic.
Speaker 2:Is that what you're saying? That? That is what I inadvertently implied, and maybe I'm just projecting you know is hedonistic.
Speaker 1:Is that what you're saying? That is what I inadvertently implied.
Speaker 2:And maybe I'm just projecting. I was just saying that I'm what people really want is to get off this podcast right now and go play video games. That's what the people really want, but the quote-unquote people they really want video games right now.
Speaker 1:We're at the 50-minute mark, Brian. I am trying to respect our audience's time. They've already arrived at work. They're waiting for you to shut up.
Speaker 2:Right, waiting for me to shut up. They're sitting in the car in the parking lot like going to go over the other two virtues temperance and wisdom and we'll probably say something, or at least try to say something funny while we're doing that, and talk about some food, I think. So that's how it goes, and that's how that goes Bye. Yeah, help yourself.