Embark with us, Brian and Nick, on a journey that satisfies both palate and mind, where the art of creating a high-protein pizza meets the timeless wisdom of stoicism. We're not just tossing dough here; we're tossing ideas around that will nourish your body and enrich your soul. As I divulge the secrets to crafting a guilt-free slice that's big on taste and light on calories, we'll also sip on some Coke Zero musings, reflecting on how something as simple as our beverage choices can teach us about temperance.
Our conversation takes us deeper than the crust of our homemade pizza, into the heart of stoicism and the virtues that can guide a balanced life. Imagine finding tranquility in the midst of a consumer-driven world that's constantly pushing you towards excess. We'll share insights from philosophers like Epictetus and Seneca, and discuss how applying ancient wisdom can help us navigate our modern maze of desires. From the savory layers of self-restraint to the sweet aftertaste of wisdom, we invite you to feast on thoughts that could truly transform your approach to life's indulgences and challenges.
We wrap up with a toast to wisdom, the kind that bubbles up in the face of adversity, as serene as a well-risen loaf. Recalling a cherished member of our Toastmasters club, we ponder how life experiences and reflection shape our understanding and response to the world. And as we close this session, we leave you with a parting thought: managing our expectations, much like kneading dough, can lead to a more palatable daily existence, where surprises are the delightful toppings on the pizza of life. Join us and chew on these delectable morsels of knowledge that could very well be the recipe for a more serene, virtuous existence.
Embark with us, Brian and Nick, on a journey that satisfies both palate and mind, where the art of creating a high-protein pizza meets the timeless wisdom of stoicism. We're not just tossing dough here; we're tossing ideas around that will nourish your body and enrich your soul. As I divulge the secrets to crafting a guilt-free slice that's big on taste and light on calories, we'll also sip on some Coke Zero musings, reflecting on how something as simple as our beverage choices can teach us about temperance.
Our conversation takes us deeper than the crust of our homemade pizza, into the heart of stoicism and the virtues that can guide a balanced life. Imagine finding tranquility in the midst of a consumer-driven world that's constantly pushing you towards excess. We'll share insights from philosophers like Epictetus and Seneca, and discuss how applying ancient wisdom can help us navigate our modern maze of desires. From the savory layers of self-restraint to the sweet aftertaste of wisdom, we invite you to feast on thoughts that could truly transform your approach to life's indulgences and challenges.
We wrap up with a toast to wisdom, the kind that bubbles up in the face of adversity, as serene as a well-risen loaf. Recalling a cherished member of our Toastmasters club, we ponder how life experiences and reflection shape our understanding and response to the world. And as we close this session, we leave you with a parting thought: managing our expectations, much like kneading dough, can lead to a more palatable daily existence, where surprises are the delightful toppings on the pizza of life. Join us and chew on these delectable morsels of knowledge that could very well be the recipe for a more serene, virtuous existence.
Welcome to Help Yourself. Food and Philosophy with Brian and Nick. I'm Nick.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm Brian. Since light travels faster than sound, people may appear bright until you hear them speak Speaking of what you eating, brian.
Speaker 2:Appear bright.
Speaker 1:Oh, no kidding.
Speaker 2:The minute that this podcast started, people were like well, brian's not bright, all right Um anyway.
Speaker 1:What's worse is, Nick thinks he's bright, all right.
Speaker 2:So what am I eating? So I'm going to. I'm going to um, talk about a. Uh, a new thing that I tried. You actually inspired me a lot on the. On the last episode you were eating Jets pizza.
Speaker 2:But I've been trying to find different alternatives for healthier alternatives for things like that. Like pizza, it's like I would normally get Jets we love Jets pizza, we'll get it but the thing is I know that once I eat it, it's just going to be like, yeah, I'm going to eat too much and it's a lot. Be like, yeah, I'm going to eat too much and it's a lot of bread and I'm gonna, you know, have too many calories and everything else. So we've been trying to. I've been trying to get more protein in my diet as well as um. That, as I said, try to find suitable alternatives.
Speaker 2:So they found this recipe for a high protein pizza that you can make yourself and it's basically pretty simple stuff. It has um for the dry ingredients. It's just um, some self-rising flour, some coconut flour and then some nutritional yeast, which I've never heard of before, but it's like it smells like fish food, quite honestly, I mean, it's like it's really like health smells. Like you know, when you walk into the vitamin store, like the health food store, and it has that real vitamin smell, it smells like that you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so it's not like yeah, so not super appetizing, but it was getting mixed into a bigger thing so I'm like I'm fine with it.
Speaker 2:So those are the dry ingredients.
Speaker 2:And then it has a and it's all measured in grams so I can't do like cups, but it has some egg whites in it as well as some plain Greek yogurt, and that's the thing that gives it a little bit of the bacteria to rise for that self-rising flour to rise.
Speaker 2:And then I'm trying to think what else. There was one other thing in there. I think that might be be it and you just mix it all up and it becomes like it doesn't quite become a dough, but it comes like almost like a paste and you put it on parchment paper so that it won't stick to anything and you just use like the back of a spoon and you spread it out like into a circle, um, hopefully as as evenly as you can, so it's like a crust yeah and you bake it in the oven for like 10 minutes until it's sort of starting to separate from the parchment paper, and then you pull it out and you put your toppings on it and you only have to put it back in for another like three or four minutes just to melt the cheese and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So I had a pizza last night that was with that um, you know that that uh crust, and then it just had, um, regular tomato sauce, you know that crust, and then it just had regular tomato sauce, some mozzarella. I had some chicken meatballs that I cut into like slices, so I put like little slices of meatballs on it and then pepperoni and the whole pizza like the whole entire pizza is like 500 or 600 calories.
Speaker 2:So like you can eat the whole and it's about a 12 inch pizza. So it's like it's not like. I was actually stuck Like I ate the whole thing, cause I was like I'm going to eat the whole thing, I'm going to eat and I ate the whole thing and I was like, why did I eat the whole thing? This is stupid. Like but um, but it was really really good and it was super easy to make Um and um. You know, like I said, it was knowing that it's a lot lower calorie than ordering from jets or whatever. Um, I'm trying to like not that I'm never going to order from jets again, cause who am I kidding? Um but um, but so I had that, uh, both my, I. I made two, two separate crusts my wife for, so my wife could make her own pizza and then I could make my pizza and um, and it was really really good and apparently actually I think I have it.
Speaker 2:Let's see if I have it on my phone. Hold on a second, I'll. I'll pull it up right now because I know how everyone loves. Everyone loves it when I talk about nutritional facts of um. You know the, the things that I eat. So this apparent, according to this, the whole 12 inch cheese and this was just a cheese pizza, so mine was probably a little more than this, because I added some other proteins. It has 66 grams of carbs, 12 grams of fat and 52 grams of protein, and a plain cheese pizza is 580 calories. So if you just put cheese on it a reasonable amount of cheese, I mean not like half a pound but for under 600 calories you're getting something that's pizza. Now I will say it's sort of like a suitable alternative, meaning I didn't feel like I ate Jet's pizza, I didn't feel like I ate pizza from a pizza place, but I got the flavors of pizza and it was. It was good enough and it filled my belly. So you know that was good.
Speaker 2:So so that's my, that's my food story for today Really, really bad. I've got some water here that I'm drinking and then I only have one thing, and I've done I've talked about this before, but I'm actually sort of for a long time I was not drinking you probably know this but like for a long time I wasn't drinking coffee at all. And then now I'm back on coffee again, like every day I drink coffee now, and then for a long time I didn't drink any sodas at all, like not even diet sodas, just not not because I really cared that much, but just because I got out of the habit. And when we go to the store we don't buy them, so we don't have them in the house and um, you know so. But anyway, somebody reintroduced me to like Coke zero, and so I've been drinking like not a lot of Coke zeros, but I'll say maybe like one a week, maybe two, and uh you know, slippery slope, I guess, but man, they're really good.
Speaker 2:They're like they're not die. I tried a diet Coke recently and it was not good at all. It was I won't say the word that I wanted to say, but it was, it was. It was not how I remembered them tasting when I used to drink diet Coke. All the time I drank and I'm like, why did I, why would I ever drink this? This is horrible. And then you drink Coke zero and I'm like, oh, this is really good.
Speaker 1:Like this is like it's like drinking a regular Coke, really, um, and so if you, if you've gone a long time without drinking Coke and you drink a Coke zero, you're like, yeah, this, this is a Coke.
Speaker 2:It really is. Um and I'm sure it's not good for you. Um, I've never been a artificial sweeteners.
Speaker 1:Is it sucralose or?
Speaker 2:is it what it is? It is aspartame. Oh yeah, so it's carbonated.
Speaker 1:Isn't it the same as NutraSweet right? I don't know. It's been so long since I've really looked which one is.
Speaker 2:Splenda also, I think.
Speaker 1:I just burped into the mic?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I burped into the mic.
Speaker 2:I just took a drink, and then I just didn't even think about it, just burp right into the mic. All right, guys, that that's how this episode starting out is Brian's protein pizza and burps. All right, let's go. Anyway, no, so I feel like I don't know. I feel like I give myself.
Speaker 2:I've been like saying, hey, you know what you deserve a Coke Zero. You can have a Coke Zero every once in a while. If I was drinking, if I was buying a Coke Zero you deserve. Well, I'll say this I only get it at the places that are not at my house, like, I don't buy them. I've not purchased a Coke Zero this entire time. It's like when I go to get my hair cut, the person who cuts my hair has a little mini fridge and she has like the little four ounce or whatever six ounce tiny cans of coke zero. So I drink a coke zero there. Um, the office, one of the offices I go to, both of the offices I go to they just stock the refrigerator with coke zeros and so, um, which is part of the reason why I also don't drink one like every day, because I feel like it's taking advantage of I'm not buying it. So I feel like I'm like not supposed to be, like just drinking them every day or whatever. I'm just for the greater good.
Speaker 2:It's the greater good, the greater good.
Speaker 1:I'm showing some temperance.
Speaker 2:I'm showing some temperance and some courage and some, you know, uh, just just trying to.
Speaker 1:actually it's justice, it's the, the greater good is that it's for me to not drink two of them a day, you know so right, but by you not getting two a day, you're exercising some restraint, right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:Temperance Exactly.
Speaker 1:So that's my uh that's my lame BBC. Exactly so. That's my uh, that's my lame BBC, um, but again it's good it's still good, even though it's lame, big bad breakfast yes, bbb toastmasters club. Oh, I just realized. We didn't mention toastmasters at all last episode, did we?
Speaker 2:I don't think we did oh, oh, we were we were exercising temperance also.
Speaker 1:You know so yeah, we'll, we'll make up for it in this one. Uh. So yeah, I got what's called the mother of all biscuits oh, wow and it's a crispy fried dill chicken breast and cheddar cheese slice on a buttermilk biscuit and their biscuits are crazy yeah, then I got. I converted it into a dirty bird oh which means it's got a. Then I converted it into a dirty bird. Oh, which means it's got some JC's hot sauce, bacon and local honey. The honey is drizzled on top of the whole thing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was quite tasty. It hit the spot, although it's a pretty messy sandwich. At that point, right Like you, get a biscuit sandwich and you just put honey on top. Yes it uh, yeah it's. It was put on a small plate like it was on a saucer plate okay, yeah I really had to contend with that for a while before yeah a fellow toast master was kind enough. I didn't think to ask for myself, because I too am a nine, you know, a peacemaker on the enneagram but another toast master saw, like could see into the kitchen and saw this huge stack of clean plates.
Speaker 1:He's like can I have one of those plates? Yeah, and sure enough. He just this was ed, by the way, you might as well have a crystal clear picture. And and then he just took the plate and handed it to me like, oh, thanks yeah I don't know why I didn't think I did say verbally like that problem, like man this is a messy sandwich for such a small plate yeah and I did.
Speaker 1:I dropped like two or three pieces of bacon onto the table that I ate anyway, because it was that good. Um, no one else at the table knew that.
Speaker 2:That's an inside secret, that's only for me, only for the podcast, yeah oh yeah, and the other two people who are right, but it was.
Speaker 1:It was very tasty and surprisingly filling, which I'm grateful for, because I think it was like 14 bucks for one biscuit.
Speaker 2:No sides, those biscuits are, gigantic though they're, and they're like square on the bottom. I mean, it's like they just like you know, and they're flaky. They're like those ones that are like you can peel off a little tiny layer and eat it, and then you peel off another layer and eat it, and you peel off another layer and eat it, and like that kind of buttermilk.
Speaker 1:Is that? Is that unique to buttermilk biscuits? Or?
Speaker 2:well, I think that's. I think it's the way that they make up, like when they fold the dough over, they keep folding it over and they fold butter into it. So like you'll like roll the stuff out and then you literally like take butter and you put it like you know pats of butter, so that it's like, and then you literally fold it over and you're not like, you don't like need it, like dough, like bread dough, you roll it so you'll put butter in the middle and then roll it.
Speaker 1:I don't need bread dough. I can do without bread dough. Everyone needs it anyway.
Speaker 2:So uh, so no, I think that's how they do it, and you know this is just that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's how they dough it yeah so they really milk the butter for all it's worth yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know it was something that they had to sort of. You know, dwell on a little bit, um no, but I love that restaurant, though that the first time I tried that restaurant was in uh, what's that place called? It was, uh, it was like a portmanteau. It was, oh, muscle shoals alabama. It wasn't a portmanteau, but muscle shoals alabama. Well, it was because one of my friends said that the way you say it is my shoals, you say my shoals, my shoals oh, it was like portmanteau, you know um yeah, but they had one down there in north alabama and we went there and, uh, I was like man, this place is great.
Speaker 2:In fact, I had the same thing there the very first time as I had when we went there the last time, even though I wasn't able to go to the brunch with you guys. Um, the most recent time is the avocado toast. Their avocado toast is like so good. Especially if you add egg to it, it's like a full breakfast and it's actually pretty healthy. So, um, excellent.
Speaker 2:But those that I think one of the times I might've had something like that, like the dirty bird or something like that. I swear when you said that. I remember, cause I think we were in Muscle Shoals for a few days and I think we went twice while we were there, and once I had a healthy breakfast and the other one I'm like I'm going to get this, you know, and it's not healthy or less healthy.
Speaker 1:I should say so.
Speaker 2:you know, I did practice temperance once and not the other time. Oh so what are you drinking? Are you drinking anything?
Speaker 1:other time. Oh so what are you drinking? Are you drinking anything? Uh yes, I have a, a shaken espresso decaf with light ice from starbucks and it's the the hazelnut it's. It's called, like the hazelnut oat milk shaken espresso, but I made mine the hazelnut oat milk shaken espresso, but I made mine the hazelnut coconut milk shaken espresso decaf with lime ice Like for like a split second.
Speaker 2:When you said shaken, I thought you were going to be like a shaken, not stirred, martini, and I thought you were going down the James Bond path there for a second.
Speaker 1:Anyway, and then I have my water.
Speaker 2:I think this podcast would be a completely different podcast if we had, if we just had cocktails while we were talking about philosophy be like drunk yeah, we've.
Speaker 1:We have had alcohol a couple, a couple of episodes yeah, on the record, I thought about it. I have some beer left over in my fridge I'm probably not going to get. I'm not going to replenish this anytime soon.
Speaker 2:What Replenish the beer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the beer. Because I just noticed, like whenever I'm drinking beer, I don't know, I don't get anything out of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Except a bigger belly.
Speaker 2:That's interesting.
Speaker 1:It takes interesting too much to get a buzz, and then and then, by that point it's too late. Right, like, yes, I had, I was having a conversation with friend of the podcast, austin.
Speaker 2:Uh, remember, austin was on fit. You know what is it? Uh, fitness taco, fitness taco into your mouth or whatever.
Speaker 2:I can't remember what the title of the episode was um, but I was talking to him recently and and I was he he was actually saying that same thing, like when you decide what you're gonna have to eat, ask, ask yourself, what? What does this give me? What is this, what is this, what do I get from this that I'm eating? And if you, like you just said, oh well, I get a little bit of a buzz, but I also get a belly. You know, if I drink too much beer, then you might say, uh, maybe I shouldn't drink this beer.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean so well I don't always get the buzz, the beer that's around me. I don't like the flavors yeah and I only really drink it because I want to drink something other than water, which there's so many other options between water and beer. Let's get those other options.
Speaker 2:Just have light beer. It's basically like water, you know, anyway, no, definitely, I want you to practice temperance and that's how we get into our next our, that's how we segue into our next topic. Or next, not next topic, the same topic we were talking about, but a different portion of that topic. So last, yeah, last, episode we talked about, uh, where we started talking about stoicism and the stoic philosophers, and uh, I think we did a pretty dang good job at it.
Speaker 2:Uh, maybe I don't know it was acceptable to me I'm gonna take it, uh, but we we talked about it and basically we're discussing the four virtues of the stoic philosophy and we talked about courage and justice in the last episode. This episode we have the other two, which are temperance and wisdom, and we'll start with the basic definition of temperance. In essence, temperance is just sort of limiting yourself or you know, um, not, actually it's the anti-hedonist.
Speaker 2:It's sort of like what we talked about a little bit on the last episode it was like okay, hedonism, well, temperance is like curbing your hedonistic, your you know your desires or whatever you know so the funny thing is a Kirby.
Speaker 2:I just was reading a quote right now. I was about to read a quote. It says Epictetus said curb your desire, Don't, don't set your heart on so many things, and you will get what you need. And Seneca said you ask what is proper. Uh, excuse me, what is the proper limit to a person's wealth? First, having what is essential and second, having what is enough.
Speaker 2:So I guess seneca was against billionaires, then seems like, uh, because they have way more than is essential and they have way more than is enough, I guess, if you consider what is needed, um, as you know, so, um the goldilocks of anything you do yeah it's like too much of a good thing is still too much yeah, yeah, it's not good anymore at some point a good thing becomes a bad thing, like you can.
Speaker 1:You can poison yourself with water if you drink enough of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Your brain will literally become waterlogged.
Speaker 2:Right and um, trying to trying to find there was a second thing that I had here, um it. I feel like this is one of those things that uh and this is where uh, the, the Aristotle quote came on came in um in one of the articles talking about we are what we repeatedly do.
Speaker 1:It's my favorite quote to misquote.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Therefore, excellence is not an act but a habit. But with regard to stoicism, is they're saying, hey, don't do anything in excess. So doing the right thing in the right amount is the right way or in the right way. This is the way. This is the way. This is definitely what we're sort of talking about, but I feel like this. I mean, I said this about the other two things. You know, the other two we've already discussed, but this is one of those things that I think everyone needs to know about, no matter what your philosophical belief is or anything else is you know the man this is going to like. I can't believe I'm like blanking on this, but it's the, the hierarchy of needs, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Is you know that this is what temperance is? Is you know? In essence, you're?
Speaker 1:like OK, I think.
Speaker 2:I think think it somewhat parallels it because it's like okay, do you need to have? Like, what do you need? What do you actually need? Okay, you need the base, you know the base level. Then the next thing up what do you? What's the minimum that you need to get to that level? What's the minimum that you need to get to this level? So I don't think mass, like there's nothing in maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's like, hey, once you um, you know, once you have a shelter and security and all the things that are on like that base level. He's not like saying, yeah, but you know what you should seek once you get there is get better shelter and better security and better you know, like.
Speaker 2:It's like no, once you have what you need, you move to the next level. So you have a 2000 square foot house. That's perfectly fine for whatever you're eating. You know whatever you're using. Uh, you know whatever you need, or 1,500, whatever that amount is that you actually need. Okay, so that level that you've checked the box, you don't need anything different.
Speaker 2:But in what's interesting is in our country at least, um, and probably a lot of other first world countries, I would think, is that sort of the goal is to do that. The goal is, yeah, I've got this house, but now I want a bigger house, and now I want a better car, and now I want to. It's like, yeah, but you have a car, you have food in the refrigerator, you have the beer that you're not going to replenish, you know you've got all of the things right and smaller, yeah, so that's it. But I think that's like I said, this is something that I don't think a lot of people in America practice, and I'm not pointing fingers out, I'm saying I'm in that boat just like everybody else is. I'm a consumer. So it's like, oh, I want that, I want that right now, so I'm going to get it.
Speaker 1:It's like like do you need that? No, I don't need it, but I want it, you know. So, yeah, I think I think the other aspect of temperance that the stoics try to embody is, uh, emotion management, or like anger management, and you know just which makes sense if you're talking about not being rash and impulsive, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what we were talking about before, like last episode, is the demeanor of being stoic. Yeah, actually no, I think we were talking about that before we recorded is we were talking about? We're talking about somebody who was talking it was new to stoicism and they were saying, yeah, but are we supposed to like not have any fun and it's like no, they don't mean that you need to be stoic Like you need to be like this serious person all the time.
Speaker 2:It's different, you know discipline to me stoicism and this is discipline, almost like like to, to be, have like cause. The whole thing about stoicism is control over your own circumstances, control over your own actions. You know you are the master of your domain, kind of thing and yeah, exactly right, and so those four, these four things are just that, it's you know. They're different in terms of what you know, how they apply, but they're those are. These are all ways to basically get yourself to that point, so.
Speaker 1:I bet we can make an interesting metaphor from a car Like one of these. One of these virtues is is the chassis probably. What was it?
Speaker 2:Justice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably justice. That's the frame, that's the structure you know.
Speaker 2:Justice yeah, probably justice.
Speaker 1:That's the frame, that's the structure you know, and then, you've got the accelerator of, I guess, courage.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The break of temperance and the steering wheel of wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean that's probably good.
Speaker 2:Nailed it there we go we just made it up. We just made that up. I bet if I do a search right now for like automobile stoic reference or you know something, somebody else has already done it, or you go to chat gpt and it's like how, how are the four pillars of stoicism like a, like a car and oh, that would be awesome it would, it would do it you make me want to do the exact same thing
Speaker 2:okay, well, don't be impulsive or rash yeah, exactly, um, yeah, so, uh, what was I gonna say? Oh, um, I can't remember what I was going to say. All right, so I mean, with regard to temperance, I feel like it sort of plays into courage a little bit, I think, just because you almost have to temper, because courage to me, me, is tempering fear, right? So you know, oh, I can't hear, I can't hear you for some reason. Um, what happened? I muted, I said yeah, it's like kind of fear.
Speaker 1:Not doing something out of fear is the same as acting on impulse right right right it's the other side of that exact same coin. That's, that's interesting. I mean, there are a lot of these stoicism, you know these modern stoics who write articles in these four pillars and everything, and they often do say that I mean these four pillars don't sort of stand alone, right, they're also interconnected and they do depend on each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they talk about Aristotle, talking about a golden mean. So that too, the sweet spot between two vices yes, which is interesting. Yeah, it's not falling in the ditch of either side of the road well, and I think, right in the middle of the road I feel like, uh, it's interesting that you described it as sweet swap between two vices.
Speaker 1:Actually, I would just what's that? I was quoting an article back here.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like, not necessarily between two vices, but a single vice. There's a certain amount we talked about in the last episode you playing video games, right, which is sort of where we got that. Uh had that discussion about, um you know, somebody thinking that you needed to be stoic, like you know that you, you didn't. You were not supposed to have any fun as a stoic, right, um sure, but there's a sweet spot for your video gaming, right?
Speaker 2:so it's like potentially a single vice, like you know, uh, or or at least it goes from a you know, goes from a virtue to a vice. Uh, if you go too far with it, right, if you don't exercise temperance.
Speaker 1:What's what's the opposite of playing too much?
Speaker 2:not playing enough?
Speaker 1:I don't know working too much oh yeah oh, I see I thought you meant playing video games. Yeah, but just like what's the opposite of Well, just play in general, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know, or the same you know, the two vices. You know we talk about overeating or eating poorly. Well then, there's also just not eating enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and that's another advice of sorts of um, yeah, yeah, it's well, people starve themselves. You got to think like, oh, and that's actually a good point because, like you know, in terms of just using eating as an example, is eating not enough. Not eating enough, or you know, is an eating disorder, and eating too much is also an eating disorder. Yeah, so it's's a bullseye. There's a bullseye, right.
Speaker 1:You can go too far either way.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly. So if you're like, okay, I'm going to not eat anything, it's like, okay, well, yeah, that's a problem, and to its extreme causes your death yeah.
Speaker 1:You'll lose too much weight.
Speaker 2:Right, but I feel like um, so here's. Here's one of the quotes. That is a Marcus Aurelius quote from meditations. It says if you seek tranquility, do less. Or, more accurately, do what's essential, what the logos of a social being requires, and in the requisite way which brings the double satisfaction to do less, better. Because most of what we do and say is not essential, which, wow, that's huge. Most of what we say and do is not essential, like that's. That's crazy to me. That's it. Go ahead's like go ahead, no, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Well what I'm about to say is relevant to us. Interrupting each other, it's like it's almost enough to inspire me to start editing our podcast. Yes, most of what we say is not essential.
Speaker 2:That like that actually hurts a little bit, like you know. He's like because most of what we say and do is not essential. It's true. That's why it hurts, because it's so true you're sitting there, going, you know what you're absolutely right like, and a lot of things that we get stressed about and everything else it's like not even essential, like what do you? Why are you even? It's like you're doing it and then you're like stressed about it. I mean so, so anyway.
Speaker 1:Well, that that reminds me of a cynical quote of we suffer. Man suffers more in imagination than he does in reality.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh yeah. A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Anticipating all the ways that something could go wrong, as opposed to just dealing with what actually ends up happening.
Speaker 2:So this is the last two sentences of this quote is also awesome. Uh, that same quote is uh, so it's, you know I'll. I'll start with the because, because most of what we say and do is not essential. If you can eliminate it, you'll have more time and more tranquility. Ask yourself at every moment is this, this necessary? I think that's really cool because he gave you like practical advice in the quote where he's like okay, anything you're doing, ask yourself is this, do I absolutely, is this necessary? Do I have to do this? Is this something? That is like what happens if I don't? And I always go into like the this is a little bit of uh, hey, bingo card.
Speaker 2:Stephen Covey um, talks about. Stephen Covey talks about you know, asking yourself what happens if I don't do this thing, like in an effort to try to determine whether you should do it or whether he was using it as an example of you're choosing between two things, and his example was you're actually not choosing between those two things. You're choosing between the consequences of not doing one of those things. So ask yourself is this necessary? Or the in the alternative, what happens? Hey, good, Equal me out for the burp, Perfect.
Speaker 1:I was wondering if you could hear that I didn't think about it either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so um, maybe we should start drinking. If we're just going to start like just anyway, yeah and giggling.
Speaker 2:so, um, so what? So what I was going to say is so is it necessary? I feel like the question you ask, like what happens if I don't do this? Like what is the consequence of me not doing this thing? And I feel like that helps you get to is this necessary? But it also helps you decide, because always, when you're doing something, you're deciding whether to do this thing or if, because if you do that thing, then you're not doing something else. So you're deciding whether to do this thing or if, because if you do that thing, then you're not doing something else, so you're deciding. You're always deciding about between two things, right? So, like in your case, should I play video games or should I sleep? Right?
Speaker 1:Or should I play video games or do my taxes Right? Exactly, exactly, exactly so okay If I don't play video games not exactly exactly, so okay if I don't play video games, not, there's not much consequence, right?
Speaker 2:if I don't do my taxes, there's a lot of consequence. Or if I don't sleep, there's lots of consequence yes, yeah, and I think honestly, uh, well, you know, I do believe that if you can, well, you know, I do believe that if you can pair things down as the, as he's saying in this, that quote, you will find more tranquility, like, and I, because I think a lot of the stress that we have in modern day life is self, uh, brought on by yourself, whatever that, however, that is self-inflicted, self-inflicted.
Speaker 1:Thank you, um we well, we suffer more in imagination than we do in reality. Yeah, yeah, and we make those poor choices of not basing our decisions on actual consequence, was it? There's um, now, I can't think of who said it. I remember where I heard it.
Speaker 1:But it's like the last 50 or so years has been marked by a progressive exchange in people's minds and decisions of basically the culture, changing the decisions of from what works to what sounds good. Yes, and, and I think part of why stoicism has some attention now is people are getting more and more interested in what works, you know, like either the economy or corporate culture, or yeah political culture, like so much of it's just. It's not working. It sounds good, but it's not working for people.
Speaker 1:And I think people are getting more and more interested in what. What will actually work?
Speaker 2:I honestly think that, in terms of like American politics, and this is I guess I should I don't know, I don't, I'm not going to get super political, but I honestly think that well, it's just, it's just the like.
Speaker 2:I see things as a pendulum. I see things in, especially in the United States. You know, things swing back and forth and, regardless of how, if you think it's the worst time in our history or the best time in our history, either one of those, if you think it at some point it's going to be, you're going to think it's the worst time. If you think it's the best now and you're going to think that it's the best if it's the worst, if you think it's the worst now. So you know, um, assuming you can live long enough, right, I just assume. I just I don't assume, but I feel like the pendulum always swings back and so this is going to go back to one of the other ones.
Speaker 2:But I feel like justice, will is always served Like it, it always it's. It's like it's like self leveling cement, right, you pour it down and it you don't have to do anything to it. It will eventually level itself and it will be flat, right, and I feel like that's sort of the same thing. As you know justice, you know the right thing for the greater good. I think, as we move forward, you know more and more people will be entering into politics that believe that we need to do things that are for the greater good, not for the good of a certain percentage of the population or something like that, and that will swing back that direction. But, um, but anyway, uh, I didn't mean that as a political statement. I was just saying out of in terms of like justice being served and, um, you know that type of thing. So, uh, all right. Getting back to temperance, though, um, maybe I should temper my comments about politics on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Philosophy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um well, I think that's about it for temperance, unless you have anything else, I mean we don't want to go too far with it. We, we, we don't. We want to do this temperance in moderation, you know, if we can't do it justice.
Speaker 1:We don't want to do anything too far.
Speaker 2:We don't want to do anything in excess here uh well, so then the wise yeah, so the last, uh, last one, as you just alluded to, is wisdom and, um, you know, it's in essence, like it's one of the things that obviously everything is striving towards, and I'm trying to find my definition here.
Speaker 1:This is where the serenity prayer comes to mind, if anyone in the audience has that familiarity right I love that. Yeah, they in fact, oh cred, now I'm blanking on it is I was just going to say yesterday in our toastmasters meeting. Somebody used it yeah, gosh, I'll look that up too, yeah it's like, for I know how it ends, but I'll have it.
Speaker 2:So this is the can't do math in my head anymore and I can't remember anything anymore thanks to technology, so I'll just say you know, wisdom is basically the essential, or sort of the final and essential virtue, right, um, knowing and learning. Uh, and it's the experience, to like what this article is saying. This is the experience required to navigate the world. So we were talking about applying the other three things, like where we're struggling and which basically means we're not that wise yet. But I think that's where wisdom that's what wisdom is is okay.
Speaker 2:Now that you have, now that you know what justice is and you know what temperance is and you know what courage is, how do you apply that to your everyday life? And can you apply it on a daily basis to things? Or are you just, or is it just, lip service? Are you just like, oh yeah, I know these things and it's pretty cool, but you don't actually apply them? And I feel like the wisdom is the OK, I can see how to use these things. In essence, I was about to say to my advantage, but it's not really to your advantage, but so that you're a your advantage, but so that you're a better person, so that you have less stress, so that you have, I mean, we're.
Speaker 1:What we're talking about is um, use all those things justice, you know, yeah, yeah, the common good too.
Speaker 2:Well, because, yeah, because justice can be for you as well, and just not just you like you're part of the common good, right? Um? So, yeah, uh. So, as you can see, we're not very wise, um.
Speaker 1:I've got the serenity prayer.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah. So what were you going to say about that?
Speaker 1:Just, I was going to quote it first and just say God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage, uh, to change the things I can. Wisdom to know the difference yes there's more to it, but that's the part that I recall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, yeah, the wisdom of the difference right, which is, which is sort of what we're just saying is how do you apply it? You know is, hey, how do I tell the difference? Well, you gotta have the wisdom, but that comes with time. I haven't. That's one thing I've you never they never talk about in any of the self-help books or any of the philosophies or anything else is that there's a timing to everything. So it's, you know, especially in today's society, where you're like, hey, I just want to do something so that I can, like instantaneously, be better, and it's like, well, you can do that.
Speaker 2:But wisdom doesn't happen that way. It's just as you get older, you have perspective and and you failed, you know, you have failed, you know, basically, many times. So you are learned, you've learned from those things, or you've seen others fail and you've learned from those, and that gives you the wisdom, right, it's. It's interesting to me that, uh, basically, if in many of the religious figures that we have are, um, you know that that are for many of the major religions, they're, they're basically the ideal, or like, what people say is like, hey, they've achieved wisdom, like, you know, they've achieved what you know, the the ultimate in wisdom is right, is that they like, are all knowing kind of they, you know, are, you know, the teller of the truth.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean If you go to uh like, if you, you know, if you have any of that like, and then some of those is like and that's why they're worshipipped, you know, in some ways is Sure, They've gotten the wisdom. And so you're like, okay, well, maybe if I read about this person and study this person my whole life, then I'll get some of that wisdom too.
Speaker 1:So I don't know who he's quoting. I tried to find the quote, but original but John C Maxwell.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's said that a wise person learns from his mistakes. A wiser one learns from others' mistakes. Yeah the wisest person of all learns from other successes, but I disagree because of the survivorship bias, and you and the audience are encouraged to look it up. Otherwise it's a tangent. It's just the short of it is. Is you don't? You don't really know what makes someone successful until you rule out who that's failed has also tried those same tactics and just still didn't win yes, yeah if all you do is study success, you won't actually know what contributes to success unless you also study failure um, yeah, you look at it
Speaker 2:anyway, but a wiser person learns from other people's mistakes yeah, well, and I I found the quote that I was looking for, that um sort of takes it takes us a little bit for. So this is um under the wisdom section in one of these articles, and it's a quote from epictetus says the chief task in life is simply this to identify and separate matters so that I can clearly to myself which or so I can, so I can can clearly to myself which are. So I can, so I can say clearly to myself which are externals, not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself, to the choices that are my own. So you wisdom, like you said, sort of wisdom to be able to tell the difference between the two um but also I like that it's.
Speaker 2:This is sort of sums up all of stoicism, because it is stoicism is a you know, a philosophy that is really, as I said at the very beginning of the last episode, is you're in control, like you're the one that is sitting here going, okay, how do I like? Basically, what do I have that I have control over? And this is saying that exact thing is hey, in essence, don't worry about things you don't have control over, because you don't have control over them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know like I get. I get the concept and I use the same terminology you know on any given day, um, but I also don't like the word control. To some extent I think I prefer influence. Okay, uh, partly because one I I tend to see things in a spectrum and not black and white. Binary control, or can't control on or off.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know like, yes, pragmatically, we can control our arms and our hands. You know, we can articulate our body.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:At the same time, there's things that we do that we don't understand, or there's people who lose control of their body. We don't exactly tell each muscle consciously to move in which way. It just sort of does what we want, and we're not even sure how that works. We don't have full control of our body, but we influence what it does. And similarly, even if we have, like I, I'm at a position where I have direct reports, but I don't control them right um, I influence them hopefully through a combination of, you know, authenticity and authority.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think I guess one of my big eureka moments and all of that is like, yeah, I can't make anybody do anything right, but I can make it easy. You know, like knowing that in the article that I have here, before they even get to the four pillars, they have this little blurb that talks about a couple of principles. I'm not sure if it's historic, necessarily, because it's part it's outside of the four pillars, like it might just be this author's opinion, but, um, here she says you know, first we behave to advance. These are, what is it? It's just that the Stoics believe that humans are social animals, are able to use reason to solve problems, and that this instinct naturally developed throughout the life, throughout life beginning in childhood, and is the basis for ethics and so it can be in three parts.
Speaker 1:The first is we have to we behave to advance our self interest.
Speaker 1:Second, we recognize that other people also have interests yeah and third is we work out how to solve problems in life that arise from the friction from those first two principles. Right, it's like you. You and I are stuck together in the same boat. I want to go north and you want to go south. We're both trying to get to land. How do we reconcile that? Right, we, we both have, we happen to have the same goal, but we have a different approach of how to get there. Yeah, and if, like, I could make it easy for you, I could say you know what? I will row twice as much as you if you go north with me. Right, yeah, like, so there's, I'm not controlling you. You still have a choice. You're like? No, I believe so much that it's south, and at that point, based on your conviction, maybe you convince me. But, yeah, um, ultimately, in a survival situation, though, it's better to just make a decision and pick a direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was gonna say like, but the the control and not control. There is okay, you know, do I have control over whether I live or die? It's like, yeah, I do, and you know, whether I live or die is like making it back to land is a big, you know, a big factor in whether I live or die, right, so, but I mean, but I get your point, though, I get the point of you know, you're right, you can't control.
Speaker 2:But I get your point though. I get the point of you know you're right, you can't control. But I feel like I always like the way that Wayne Dyer talked about and he may have been quoting someone else, but I think he actually was. I think he was quoting like an Indian philosopher or spiritualist or something like that, and he said yeah. He always said hey. You know why do people worry? Because if there's only two things that you can worry about, one is things you have control over and one is things you don't have control over. So if you have control over it, why are you going to worry about it? Cause you can do something about it. If you don't have any control over it, then why are you going to worry about it? Because you don't have any control over it.
Speaker 2:So now you've just eliminated all things to worry about, right? And so I feel like part of this wisdom is going back to you know, going back to courage a little bit, and maybe even temperance a little bit. Is that you're, you know that there, and I guess sort of the name of stoic you know? Basically, hey, um, you know cause the ultimate goal of this is to be metered, is to be, um, you know, to be able to live life in a very fluid way, if that makes sense. That is not. You don't feel like you're along for a ride, you're able to make decisions about it. But also I really believe that at the base level of most philosophy, self-help and everything else, even religions, is stress relief is not worrying about certain things, not worrying about your death, not worrying about what's going to happen if this happens. And again it goes back to your quote that you said it's like what was the quote? Say it again it was the you're more. It's something in your mind Like you're more.
Speaker 1:We suffer more in our imagination than we do in reality. So, I think a lot of these things, like I said, including religions and everything else is a way to find peace, is a way to find some kind of, you know, inner peace, I mean, and obviously a lot of religions use that, so to quiet the existential anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and I think we've talked about that before in one of our podcasts, episodes at least um existential.
Speaker 1:I think it was when we were talking.
Speaker 2:I think we were talking about like solipsism or something you know, like you know basically, like something like that, like exist.
Speaker 2:It's like existential crisis kind of stuff um no but I think that I think that's sort of the you know to, not not to put like a total cap on it, but like, like you know, I feel like or bust a cap on it exactly. Um, you know, having that, you know, having the wisdom, is in some ways like, think about this and you can do this out there. Don't close your eyes if you're driving, but think about this. If you think of someone who you think is wise like, just think of that person and picture their demeanor. Do they seem like they're stressed out?
Speaker 2:I have a hard time believing that if you look at somebody or you think like I think that's one of the wisest people, I know part of the reason why you think it's they're the wisest person is because they're so calm, they're metered, they just don't get. They don't get rattled by a lot of things they just sort of.
Speaker 2:You know one of the people. I'll use his name too because, um, he was a member of our uh I don't know if I should use his like first and last name, but um, but he was a member of our our, uh toastmasters club. Unfortunately, he passed away, uh, but he and you probably know who I'm talking about. Um and he never. I never felt like he was rattled by anything. I felt like he was just going through life and just sort of like. Even when he spoke in front of an audience, he spoke the same as when he was having a conversation with you and just a nice slow, yeah, just very, very did not seem nervous at all.
Speaker 2:Did not seem, did not use a lot of ahs and ums and all these other things Like it seemed like he. I mean literally none, pretty much. A friend to all.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And and the thing is, you know, uh, I feel like he had a certain amount of wisdom because of that. And you know, he's a pretty highly educated guy but grew up in very, very how do I say it Like very. You know, he grew up in a rural area and was, you know, I don't think there was a lot of money, like I don't think his family is very wealthy or anything like that, but they again, it doesn't. You don't need a lot of money to be wise, right?
Speaker 1:um, and so anyway, it's just interesting to me that that that sort of goes together, you know yeah, for me, when you were talking about asking me to picture someone who's wise like, I also got the same kind of calm, cool and collected vibe, maybe a couple of crow's feet, you know but, also the the fast. The story that just popped in my head is that he or she's seen almost all of it already, or?
Speaker 1:seen it all before right, like maybe it's. They could still be young and wise, but it's like they've lived the life right. They've traveled the world or they recognize the pattern faster than other people have um but they, they, just, they've seen it all before they recognize it yeah so it's not a surprise, it's not scary, um yeah well, that's probably because they've done some thinking about it, right, they yeah yeah, I think I think you're right.
Speaker 2:I think, um, I mean, I think definitely, the more time you have to reflect on things, the you know, the more time you have the ability to gain wisdom. And I think, again, going back to religion, you know the reason why prayer or meditation is part of almost all the religions. I would think that's on some level, I think pretty much all I don't know all the religions, backwards and forwards, but all of them have some kind of prayer or some kind of meditation that are built into. That. That is either required or you know, hey, you need to do this. You sort of have, you know, heavily encouraged, right, and I think part of that is that is that reflection process of you know, being able to sort of calm the mind and you know, um, things like that.
Speaker 2:So I think, yeah. So, unless you have anything else, I'll read this quote that I um, that I found that I feel like sums up all, all, the all of the four virtues of stoicism. And it was, uh, marcus Aurelius. It's from the meditations. Yeah, help yourself. So it says, uh, this is Marcus Aurelius from meditation.
Speaker 2:Says, when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself, the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly they are like this because they can't tell good from evil.
Speaker 2:But I have seen the beauty of good and the ugliness of evil and have recognized that the wrongdoer has the nature related to my own, not of the same blood and birth, but of the same mind and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me, no one can implicate me in ugliness, nor can I feel angry at my relative or hate him. We were born to work together, like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him, these are unnatural. So, anyway, all of that that goes into the courage and that goes into, um, you know, justice, temperance, wisdom, all of those things, and uh, I thought I mean, honestly, if you read that every morning, you might actually be better off. You've just read that like you, sort of like you, the, the prayer of assisi, uh, saint, or saint assisi.
Speaker 1:Um, you know I know it seems rather bleak at first and then it just does some lip service to uh like I also have that same nature.
Speaker 2:But well, yeah, and I think that's, I think that's, I think it's badly yeah I like it too, I think it's bad. Yeah, I like it too, but I think it's bad. You have to say like yeah, everyone's going to be horrible. Everyone I meet today is going to be horrible. They're going to be arrogant and they're going to be meddling and dishonest and jealous.
Speaker 1:And you know it comes down to lowering your expectations. So much that there's no room for disappointment and frustration and there's only room for being pleasantly surprised right, right, oh hey only two people cut me off today. That's amazing. People are always so self-centered.
Speaker 2:I'm surprised it didn't happen more often so if you've gotten nothing else from these two episodes, it's just lower your expectations, okay raise your expectations of yourself, lower expectations of everybody else All right. Well, I think we covered that pretty well. At least we got through the four topics. I'm sure that we probably just scratched the surface, but hey, that's what this podcast is about scratching the surface. So all right, bye.
Speaker 1:Take it to scabs.