In this inspiring episode Joanna Peña-Bickley sits down with the Tony Award-winning sound designer, Jessica Paz, to explore the intricate fusion of art and science in the world of sound design. Jessica, renowned for her work in theater, film, and music, shares her journey and insights that have led to groundbreaking innovations in sound.
Listeners will be enthralled as Jessica recounts her experiences working on various acclaimed projects. She delves into her collaboration with Nevin Steinberg on Anaïs Mitchell’s "Hadestown," a project that not only won them a Tony Award but also a Drama Desk Award and an Outer Critics Circle nomination. Jessica's insights into this creative process provide a rare glimpse into the makings of a theatrical masterpiece.
The conversation also covers her role as an Associate Sound Designer on Broadway hits like "Dear Evan Hansen," "Fela!," and "Disaster! The Musical." Jessica offers a behind-the-scenes look at these productions, discussing the challenges and triumphs of bringing a show's auditory landscape to life.
Throughout the episode, Jessica emphasizes the importance of a hands-on approach and lifelong learning in her field. She shares how her relentless pursuit of acoustic exploration and the 'magic of sifting for gold' to delight audiences has shaped her career and contributions to the industry.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the blend of technical skill and artistic creativity in sound design, and for those who seek to understand how sound shapes our experience of storytelling.
Episode Links & References:
In this inspiring episode Joanna Peña-Bickley sits down with the Tony Award-winning sound designer, Jessica Paz, to explore the intricate fusion of art and science in the world of sound design. Jessica, renowned for her work in theater, film, and music, shares her journey and insights that have led to groundbreaking innovations in sound.
Listeners will be enthralled as Jessica recounts her experiences working on various acclaimed projects. She delves into her collaboration with Nevin Steinberg on Anaïs Mitchell’s "Hadestown," a project that not only won them a Tony Award but also a Drama Desk Award and an Outer Critics Circle nomination. Jessica's insights into this creative process provide a rare glimpse into the makings of a theatrical masterpiece.
The conversation also covers her role as an Associate Sound Designer on Broadway hits like "Dear Evan Hansen," "Fela!," and "Disaster! The Musical." Jessica offers a behind-the-scenes look at these productions, discussing the challenges and triumphs of bringing a show's auditory landscape to life.
Throughout the episode, Jessica emphasizes the importance of a hands-on approach and lifelong learning in her field. She shares how her relentless pursuit of acoustic exploration and the 'magic of sifting for gold' to delight audiences has shaped her career and contributions to the industry.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the blend of technical skill and artistic creativity in sound design, and for those who seek to understand how sound shapes our experience of storytelling.
Episode Links & References:
Support for designed by comes from generous donations from listeners just like you Visit designed by us.org/donate ,
Speaker 2:Scanning all frequencies.
Speaker 1:Hello.
Speaker 3:Sound is a puzzle. You know, if I change the output volume of a speaker in the sound system, that will have a ripple effect on other things. If I change, you know, the, the level of the guitar overall through the show , I mean, that has a ripple effect. The , but , so it's just like, it's, you move one part. And, you know , Nevin likes to say, and I like his analogy about this, it's like sifting for gold. Sometimes you solve one thing and that reveals something else.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Design By I'm your host, Joanna Pena Bickley . I've always believed that great design is a journey of learning, making intelligence visible. In every episode, I invite you to meet the trailblazers and change makers , hearing their powerful stories of how they've not just imagined, but intentionally forged paths to a brighter future. Tune in to the inspiring stories that will energize you to intentionally dare to design a better future today.
Speaker 4:Design . Design . The design , the design , the design , the design of future
Speaker 1:Today is an absolute truth . As we welcome a true luminary and sound design to our Aurora 21 Studios, please give a warm welcome to the incredibly talented Jessica Poz. Jessica is a Tony Award-winning sound designer, renowned for her extraordinary contributions to theater, film, and music. And as a theater buff and a film enthusiast, I am beyond excited about talking with Jessica today as we unravel her fascinating journey and go beyond and behind the scenes. So, without further ado, let's welcome Jessica. Jessica, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Hey, how are you? Happy to be here. I'm ,
Speaker 1:I'm good, I'm good. You know, I've always believed that everybody has a story and everybody's story matters. So let's dive into yours. Where does your story begin?
Speaker 3:So, I grew up in Brooklyn. Um, I had no indication that I wanted to , uh, work in theater. I , um, when I graduated high school, I went to John Jay College of Criminal Justice , uh, to study forensic psychology. I, within about a year and a half, decided that that wasn't for me, and that I wanted to take a bit of a break, and I became , uh, the assistant manager of a scuba diving store, and then eventually a bookkeeper. Um, and then I, I was , uh, sort of the executive assistant for this accountant, and I realized she was charging more money for my time than I was being paid per hour, which totally makes sense, and that's how it works. But I then figured, well, I can, you know, sort of freelance bookkeeping and, and , uh, and so I did, and I made 10 more dollars an hour. So I had like a little in my, you know, I was like 19, 20 years old, and I had like three different clients. Um, a cosmetic surgeon, a marketing company, and a cleaning service. And basically ended up, instead of working 40 hours a week, I was working, you know, half of that. Yeah . Uh , and making the same amount of money. So that was really what sort of opened up my time in order to pursue theater. But rewinding a little bit from that, I , uh, fell into theater by accident. Truly. I, you know, in high school, they would take us on these field trips to see shows. And , uh, I, I specifically remember seeing, bringing the noise, bringing the, the funk. And , uh, you know, about a week ago, actually, I was doing some cleaning in my house, and I found all these old playbills from shows that I've seen , uh, when I was in high school. But it never occurred to me when I was watching these performances that there was like an entire army of people behind the scenes making it happen. Right. It just, which is a testament to the magic of live theater. Right, right. Because there's , um, it, I, I read this book once called A Sense of Direction by William Ball, and he opens the book by saying that both the performers and the audience, when they enter a theater to, to perform or watch a show, all agree to suspension of disbelief. Right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they , they all agree to play, pretend for the two and a half hours that they're there. And yeah. And, and I guess I, I just, it just never, it just never occurred to me like what magic was really happening. And I remember I had a friend , uh, who would perform , uh, as an ensemble member in the Rocky Horror Show at this community theater in Long Island , uh, on Saturdays. And I would go every Saturday, get dressed up, I'd had know all the shout backs and like , uh, she also played Eddie, Dr. Scott. And , um, it was really fun. And, you know, I was 19 or 20 and spending money on a ticket every weekend was not something I wanted to do. So I figured, well, if I'm here, why not volunteer? And so I would get to sit in the audience and watch the show until the very end when , uh, riffraff comes out on the, you know, the rocket. And, and I would run the Fog Machine from Backstage <laugh> . That was the very first thing I did in theater. And from there , uh, I began sort of , uh, stage managing, like assistant stage managing. I also ran automation , um, why they had me run automation, which is lowering Rocky from the ceiling. Yeah . And this, and it's, it was, it was not like, it was not a motor. It was actually a hand crank. And there was no way that I could drop him 'cause it would lock. Right. But I'm not the strong, I'm, I'm like five foot four, and I weigh like 110 pounds , um, <laugh> . So, and I'm like, lowering and 180 pound guy from the ceiling. I don't know why they thought that was a good idea, but I, I didn't, he never got hurt. Um, so I started stage managing and eventually , uh, that led to working on a show called Bat Boy The Musical. And , uh, one of the people who was in the show in New York actually was playing Bat Boy. And the sound was particularly terrible. I don't know why. I'm not sure who did the design. I don't know that they had a designer. I think that they just, you know, it was a small theater that it's very low budget. Um, and, you know, we'd had feedback all the time. And so I remember asking a friend, I was like, how do you do a mic check? <laugh>, that's awesome. <laugh> , how do you do a mic check? I need to do a mic check. So he is like, well, you do, you know, you turn it on, you turn these knobs, and then you find the feedback, and then you get rid of it. And I was like, okay, cool. So I go in before the next show and I do a mic check, and we finally had a show without feedback. And , um, I was running lights and the lighting designer, oddly was running the sound. And so then I decided to switch us. And so I started mixing the show, and I just had a great time. Uh, and, you know, every day I would, you know, move knobs around and make it sound better. And like, I had no idea what I was really doing, but it sounded better. So I was pretty happy with that. And , uh, a friend of mine , uh, on the following show that I did, which I stage managed , which was , uh, south Pacific, I expressed some interest in continuing to do sound. And she knew someone at another theater in Long Island who wanted a sub , um, so that she could take time off. And she didn't have a sub at the moment. So I started working there, and I think I made like $50 a show or something ridiculous. Um, and I eventually took over mixing because Jen, who was the sound person at the time , um, sort of moved on into the carpentry department and started , uh, working on Scenic designs. So, and , uh, you know, the short story is eventually there was this production of Smokey Joe's Cafe, which was being directed by my super dear friend Ellen Dumlao , who I'm still friends with to this day. And I was super excited about it. And I went to my artistic director, Noelle Ruiz, and I said that I wanted to design the show. And I, and he said, oh, really? I said, yes. He's like, okay. Um, he's like, he, he, he didn't say yes right away. And so I, I told him that if after two days of tech he wasn't happy with my work, he could fire me. And then he didn't fire me. So, <laugh> from then on, I was the resident sound designer and engineer , um, at that theater , um, for about a year and a half. And I then answered , uh, an ad on this mailing list for a sound operator on a play for Labyrinth Theater Company. And I remember interviewing with the sound designer, and he asked me if I knew this particular piece of software, and I, he knows that I fibbed. And I was like, oh, yeah, I know that. Um, so, and , but what I did was, I, I would imagine you
Speaker 1:Immediately go out and buy the book or something to like,
Speaker 3:Oh , well , I mean, there really wasn't a book on it. Okay . But I, I looked it up, and then I made sure to , uh, you know, because he was in rehearsals Yeah . Prior to tech doing some programming and, and, you know, working on the sound design with the director and , and with the actors. And so I just went into the room and watched him program. And , uh, so I was familiar enough with the software by the time we got to Tech, and I operated that show, and he then asked me to be his assistant on his next production. And he and I ended up working together for about eight years on, you know, a long list of shows that were all wonderful. And that culminated eventually into a production of a show called fela . And for its , uh, sort of workshop, I was the engineer , uh, and the production audio person who was responsible for installing the sound system, et cetera. And I was in the room every day . And , um, we thought we were gonna move to Broadway after that workshop, but it didn't turn out to be that way. So the following year we did a second workshop that culminated in a , in a official off-Broadway run for a few weeks. So I was his , uh, assistant on that. And then we found out that the show was gonna move to Broadway. And it was a beautiful moment, actually, because I was sitting in the hospital holding his brand new baby Mm-Hmm . His wife had just given birth that afternoon. And I went to the hospital to meet the baby, and while I'm holding his baby, he told me that the show was gonna move to Broadway, and that he wanted me to be his associate. And the show happened to open on Broadway, and at midnight it became my 29th birthday, which is pretty great at the opening night party, which is super fun.
Speaker 1:That's remarkable.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was kind of , uh,
Speaker 1:How did you contain yourself? Like, just, you know, you from going from a community or public theater onto , you know, the biggest stage in the world?
Speaker 3:Uh , you know, I, I, I tell this story to everybody. I, I cried every day on my, like , I cried my way home and I cried my way to the theater every day for no other reason than, it's just really hard. It's just really hard work. It's really hard work. The hours are long. And I think there was at one point, going from tech into, through the first week of previews, the way that the, the week falls, like when the week the Union Week starts, like the pay week starts and ends allowed us somehow to work 13 days in a row. Hmm . And , uh, you know, honestly, just, I , I think I cried my way home and into work every day just because of sheer exhaustion, <laugh> , and it's, you know, it's, it's, it's not just physical exhaustion, it's mental exhaustion. And, but, you know, we did it and we opened the show and, and we, we worked on it. Um , there were multiple productions of it beyond that. We took it to the National Theater in London. We, I got to , uh, take it to Nigeria , uh, which was fantastic. I got to mix a concert version of the show in Fela's actual nightclub, the Shrine, which was a completely out of body experience. Um, and there were a number, a number of tours, et cetera. So I continued to work on that for, you know, five years. And eventually, I, I sort of moved into , uh, doing a lot of music, mixing in, in bars and clubs and at , at Sleep No More. That was like, sleep No More was great because, you know, I, I, well , let's
Speaker 1:Just start it like it was, when it first came out, it was probably one of the most novel things that I'd ever experienced. Yeah . It was like Alfred Hitchcock's Marnie , um, you know, meets something operatic
Speaker 3:<laugh> . I mean, I think that it was, I believe that it's the first of its kind in terms of immersive theater. Like it created immersive theater. Yeah. I, I saw the show twice while I worked there. And even though I knew where to be at certain moments, somehow, no matter who I followed, I always ended up back in the dining room, <laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 3:At the feast. I'm like, how is it possible? I like work here, I know where I'm going. Um, but I, I mixed sound in the , uh, I wasn't the main engineer. Uh, I, I just, you know, sort of worked a few days a week. But the, the great part was, you know , there's this jazz band, the house band, if you've seen the show where you enter, there's, it's a bar. There's no band there when you enter for the show. And then when you come back at the end, there's a jazz band playing. When the jazz band is done, then other bands play. So I got to meet some of, like, the greatest musicians in New York. Um, and some of them are still friends of mine, and I go see them play. And I, you know, know, one of the things I always say about like, how do you become a good sound designer? And I, I , I truly think that so much of my skill comes from not just working with Rob, which was, you know, he's a wonderful mentor, and that was like the theater side of it , but working at Sleep No More , which is a nightclub environment. And I have like a box of s short SMM 50 sevens, and maybe one kick drum mic. And I have to make the show sound good. Uh , there are no choices, right ? It's just like that mic goes on the trumpet, it goes on the saxophone, it goes on the, you know, guitar amp. But it , there's , it's , it's just, you gotta , well , you got one mic, and you gotta make that sound good on everything. And that really just taught me how to work quickly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, and taught me. I think that having the same microphone, which has its own sort of imprint, right. Its own sort of tonal response, right. And having to use that on everything, I think really as I'm thinking about it, made me able to understand how certain instruments were voiced Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , because there was no, there was no coloring of anything by some other fancy microphone. It's the same microphone on everything. And so I got to really dive into like, oh, this is, this is what a baritone wants to sound like. This is what a tenor wants to sound like. This is what a guitar amp wants to sound like. This is , um, what a voice wants to sound like. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And I think that it didn't, there was no masking. I just got to really dig into the instrument. Um, so I worked there, I worked at Queen of the Night for a while . I worked at a nightclub called The Box , uh, for a little bit mixing bands there. I did a lot of events at Sleep No More . That was another thing that was really great. So they'd have these events and there'd be, you know, four different locations throughout the building where bands would play, and there'd be like four different parties. But it was all one party throughout the entire five floors of the building. And I happened to be there also when they opened up their rooftop restaurant, Gallo Green. So I got to mix bands up there, and then they opened up the restaurant just below that called The Heath, and I got to mix. And then they had a house band up there on Friday nights . So I was just like, I was there all the time. I was practically there every day mixing. And , uh, one of the highlights of that actually was the , um, preservation Hall Jazz band did a residency for five days, and I got to mix them. Oh, wow. Yeah. <laugh>. And, and they ended their set every night with , uh, when the Saints go marching in, which, funny enough, my grandfather used to sing to me when I was a baby to put me to sleep. Oh . I don't know why. That, and he would shake me almost violently. Yeah . Yeah . And that would make me stop crying and fall asleep, <laugh> . Uh , so that was a real, it was a real treat. Um, so yeah, so I did, I did music for a while , and then I started just sort of taking , um, uh, sound calls and , and mind, you know, there's, there was also in between all of this, I was doing the sound design for the, the , the entirety of the Linbrook School district. So three elementary schools , uh, two middle schools, and two productions at the high school per year. And I was also doing like, various sound calls and hauling cable across football fields and pushing boxes and , um, you know, doing, you know, just like crazy, anything you could design, like anything that I could get my hands on, basically, it wasn't even designing. It was just like anything I could get my hands on I wanted to do. Which, you know, I also think was really advantageous for my design career, because I know what goes into unloading a truck, and I know what it takes to be an A two backstage and run mics. And I, I know what it is to , um, you know, have to change over a band four times in a night. Like, at the Knitting Factory, I had four bands. There was all I had were stage plots, and I had to make an input list, and I had to go backstage, and I had to atch things, and I just had to remember, yeah . Like, there were nothing was labeled. You didn't, there was no time to label anything. You have 20 minutes to change over the band, and you have to know, okay, the , that Okay, the drums stay the drums, and then what was the saxophone now becomes the trumpet, and what was this becomes that. And, you know, you just gotta, you just gotta roll with it. Yeah . And then get , like, you're lucky if you get a sound check . Sometimes people don't even show up for their soundtracks. I've had vocalists just not show up. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. And , and I have a , an interesting story story to circle back around , uh, the idea of Yes. And , and improv , um, that has to do with Haes Stone and Broadway. But I , we'll, yeah, we'll get there. Circle back around to that. Um, so a fun story was, you know, while I was working at Queen of the Night, I was subbing for the main engineer, and I happened to get asked to sub on the New Year's Eve performance of the show. And afterward there would be this, they, they threw parties all the time. And so there was this band that would play starting at 11 o'clock. And so what we had to do was, in the day, we set up the band on stage, they came in, they did a sound check , then we had to turn it back over into the show. And as a matter of fact, I wasn't doing the show that night because I was doing two different New Year's events. I was mixing one of them, and I hired an engineer because I was designing the other one. So I left to go to the other venue, which happened to be around the corner at the Copa Cabana and deal with that. And then the engineer who was doing Queen of the Night, the actual show that night, about a half an hour after I leave, calls me and says, so if I restored the console from the USB stick that I have the show saved on, does that erase the scene that we created for the bands that goes on tonight? Take it too far . And I was like , um, uh, yeah, yeah, it does. So essentially, when he came into Sub on the show , um, because he wanted to be super sure that he was using the right file and the right, he would , would just, he would load it from the USB stick, which just erases the whole desk. Um, and, you know, I had a snapshot in the desk that was like, way past the show, somewhere that was, you know, with Monitor wedge mixes, like EQs, there was like, it was like a six piece band. So I call my production manager, and I'm like, so there's this thing. And I have, I wouldn't say I have like a , a perfect photographic memory, but I have a pretty good photographic memory. Like, if I walk into one of my shows and I look at Niq for an actor, I can tell you whether it's correct or not. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> most, for the most part. Um, or if that's like, where I left it, right? Like , I know, I know the level, like the output levels of, of certain channels of my processor on my Broadway shows and my tours. Like, I could tell you, you know, I could at least get very close. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I have to go in and instead of me being able to help my counterpart change over from the show to the band, which we only have about 30 minutes to do, I have to sit in front of the desk and try to remember everything that I did during soundcheck <laugh>. And of course, the band has no idea. Right ? The band has no clue. And my production manager's standing next to me, and she's like, are you okay? Is it gonna be okay? Are you okay? And I was like, I , you know, I we're gonna find out. I'm gonna turn it on. And, you know, if they, they're either gonna tell me that it sounds fine if there , or it doesn't. And I'll hear the house and I'll make adjustments. But my biggest concern was like, am I just gonna totally throw off the band if their monitor mixes aren't correct? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And , uh, you know, we get to, we get to the show, and I just like, I'm like, all right, hold onto your butts. And I just opened up the faders and everything was fine. It was fine. But that was, that was absolutely nerve wracking. It was just, it was completely nerve wracking. I've never had to just like, all right, I think I, I did this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Here we go.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back.
Speaker 1:That's a pretty, I one of the things I, I think I kind of pick up is that you have a sense of resilience, <laugh> , <laugh> , you know, and it is, and I think you've gotta kind of have that , um, as a creator. Um , sure. You know, I think there is a sense of the, the meticulous, to your point around having , um, the photographic memory and being able to go back, but in a moment of stress sometimes, I don't know about you, but I, I , at the most stressful I have, like, had those moments of photographic memory. Oh, recall not happening. <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Right? Sure. I mean, I think that it, you know, I, I certainly go through, I, I like to say that I have , uh, I go through postmortem at the end of every project, and I, I certainly have breakdown , um, in a way, like, I'll sleep for like three days to a week after a project is done, or after a series of projects are done. Sometimes I move from one to the next, to the next, to the next. Um, but it's like a postpartum, you know, it's, it's like, it's like giving birth to a child.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, and then all of a sudden, you know, it's, it's this super intense 16 hours a day high stakes, and then it's like being dropped off a cliff. 'cause it's now it's open and it's done. And it's over What? <laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah. <laugh> .
Speaker 3:It was just like, yeah. It's just getting like, pushed out of an airplane and you're like, all right .
Speaker 1:Well, give me a give, I guess, give our listeners a little bit. I think that I'd love to dive a little bit behind the scenes. Like give us a day in the life of , you know, what , uh, you know, what going through tech is like, and then opening night. You know, it's, I I think that day
Speaker 3:In the life I was gonna ask you which day.
Speaker 1:Yeah . <laugh>, we might pick a couple days. Yeah. Let , let's maybe pick up like some of the, the hardest ones.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll just, I'll summarize sort of the pre-production process. Um, there's interesting things to talk about where that's concerned. But, you know, essentially for a Broadway show , uh, all we get is four walls and some seats and a stage. There's no cable, there's no speakers, there's no lights, there's, there's nothing. And there, there aren't even sometimes systems in the dressing rooms. And so I and my team spec every single piece of sound equipment that goes into a production. Um, speakers, amplifiers, microphones, like every adapter, like it's, you name it. Yeah . Um , paging Systems. We also handle Intercom and all of the closed caption television , uh, that the, the team uses backstage to stage management uses the call the show, and everybody look , you know, watches , uh, has monitors to , uh, see what's going on on stage. And so we, we also take care of all of that. So the , I get hired for a show, and what happens is we go to a site visit, I look at the space in 3D, and then on a , in, you know, a 2D medium , uh, for drafting. I turn that into a prediction. I take it into prediction software, and then I look at speaker systems and spec what it is I want. And then we draft that on the 2D medium, and then we share that with other departments. And then, you know, lighting. And I'll figure out, you know, okay, well, can you put the speaker here? Can you go one foot over there? You know, can we, I , you know, can you take that light out of center? I need to put a speaker there. We do all of that. And , um, then I create like a flow. There's a, there's a workbook that has about, I don't know, 30 different Excel sheets in it that specify inputs, outputs, amplifier channels, processing channels, network configuration, intercom configuration, video configuration. Uh , there's pivot tables that tally things. It's, it's a very involved document that evolves over time. But that , that, that input output flow gets created. And that's how I then make a list that gets sent to the shops for bid. They come back with pricing. They also come back with, we have this, but not that we have this speaker, but not that speaker. And , you know, can, can you deal with this substitution? If not, then they have to buy that equipment because I want it. Right? Mm-Hmm . So , Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And it's , it's a matter of like choosing and engineering where you want to make the exceptions and say, okay, well yes, I can use that thing that you have in stock to replace this thing that I asked for, but I can't do it for this item. Like, I can't do that for the console because I need that for being able to mix the show and design it the way that I want and to get the result that I'm looking for. So that happens. And then we go into , uh, go through that process that producing producers, producing company general managers will agree with a shop on pricing for a per weekly rental cost. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And then , um, my team, so my, my engineer, a one who mixes the show, a two who works backstage , uh, and does all the RF work and works with the actors and their microphones, the production audio person who oversees the installation, my associate and a number of other people who come in to help build the show, build the show from scratch. Like all of that equipment comes in . We all , we , it gets built custom for every show. We put it together, we test it, and then we take it apart. And we don't take it all the way apart, but we like, you know, 'cause we don't take everything out of the racks, but , um, it's sort of like , um, what's that show with the motorcycles?
Speaker 1:<laugh>? <laugh> , I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:They build, the motorcycles come and then they have to take them apart because they have to send all the parts out for being like, to be painted. And then it comes back, and then it gets p put back together. I forget the , it's like the name is escaping me. So it gets taken apart, put on a truck sent to the theater, and then it gets installed in the theater. And then we start tech. Yeah . We tune the system. So I go in, I make a bunch of pink noise, I, it's awful sounding. And then I, you know, calibrate the speaker system and, and then we start tech.
Speaker 1:It sounds like what, what's interesting to me is that as you're going through it, it really sounds like you are a conductor of an orchestra of everything from the equipment to the people. And then there's the sound, which is the thing that everybody is producing.
Speaker 3:Oh . And we haven't even gotten to that part yet. Yeah. Right .
Speaker 1:Like ,
Speaker 3:All of that's happening , and we haven't even gotten to sound. Um, uh, a a fun thing that , uh, Nevin, my , my partner in Hades Town , uh, I , I learned from him, and he likes to say is, you know, on the first day of Tech Sound comes out, no one gets hurt. Like, that's, that's the only goal for the first session of Tech Sound came out, no one got hurt <laugh> . Um , so yeah. And, you know, tech is, tech is intense in many ways. It's intense because sometimes you're sitting around and waiting, you know, it can be completely frustrating. I've had a show where we had so much automation on, on this show that I think we actually turned on microphones for an , like, an entire 25 minutes total across the 16 hour day. So, you know, sometimes it's like a lot of waiting. And I work on other things. I work on, you know, just preliminary EQs for the band before I get them, you know, we're working on setting up the band wherever it is. They're located in the pit, on stage , on a band platform, et cetera, in sometimes a dressing room . Sometimes drums will be in a dressing room on the fourth floor. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , you know, in the tower. Um, you know, we work on sound effects or any sound cues. Sometimes we're helping to , uh, facilitate show control. So like time code that will trigger lighting or projections. Um, so there's, there's stuff to do, you know, and, and of course all of the , um, utility microphones that the , the director and the choreographers speak over, like, that's coming through our sound system. Intercom is our responsibility. Videos are a responsibility, not video that is part of the show, but the backstage video backstage is bizarre . Yeah. So there's, there's lots going on. Um, and during that time, prior to getting the band, we just have like a rehearsal piano, sometimes rehearsal drums that are just in the house . And, and I, I focus really on the vocal system. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the sound system and how the vocals come through the sound system. And I, I work very hard on getting that too sound as good as possible before we get the band in earnest, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . So then we'll do, usually it's two band calls, so 9:00 AM to noon prior to two, four or five hour text sessions. So it's like a, it's like an 8:00 AM to 11:00 PM day. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, and the first day is seating, but by then we've pretty much line checked everything already on our own. So we seat the band, we make them comfortable, but all of their stuff is functional, and all their monitoring is already functional. And so seating generally turns into like a line check with the actual players, and then them checking their in air monitors and their little personal mixers and making sure that they have what they need, you know, utility wise . And then I'll usually end that session , uh, more, more often than not, like 99% of the time that, that sound, that seating session ends with being able to play through a song . And then the second session, the next day , uh, is playing through the show from top to bottom. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I just listen to the band and it's, that's really about, I'm not doing too many sort of level changes of individual inputs per song. What I'm really doing in that session is making sure that we have something cohesive top to bottom for the show. Like, does the guitar sound good all of the time? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, yes, we have to bring out little accents here and there, et cetera. That's programming that we'll take care of as we now move through the tech process with the band and, and band sessions and through notes. Um, but it's really about getting the band to sound good as a whole. And then there's the, the , um, the very, it , it always ends up going fine, but it's always very stressful the first day that you put cast and band together for the first time. Hmm . There's , uh, usually something called a Sits probe , where we go into a , you know, a rehearsal studio and the, the actors get to sing through the show with the full band and, and everyone gets to hear the orchestrations on Hades Town . We don't do sits probes. We do V probes. And so it's just, and, and we did that on Beautiful Noise as well. It's just, we just get on stage and the first time cast in band is together, is everyone singing through the show in microphone and with sound. And I get to hang out on stage and make sure monitoring , uh, monitoring systems and, and , uh, are sufficient for the actors to hear what they need to hear , uh, in terms of band information and that they're getting what they want. And then in certain circumstances , uh, on shows in which the actors are wearing boom microphones, headset mics. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , uh, there may very well be vocals in the onstage monitors as well. Got it. So I get to have a lot of time to work on that during the V probe. Um, so it's, you know, the first time we put the cast in band together, I'm , I'm usually on stage with my iPad that can control the console and a laptop that can control the sound system. And just making sure that , um, everyone's feeling comfortable. And, and of course, everyone has the ability to stop that rehearsal should they not be able to hear something. And , um, you know, I'm there to help. So, and that gives me a , you know, a good idea of like, oh, okay, well , you know what? The band is not drowning out the vocals. It's actually fitting together pretty well. And like Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , it gives me an idea of what work is ahead of us, you know? Um, and then we have run throughs, you know, and we just, we just keep every day , you know, the , every day the, the focus get gets smaller and smaller. Like, it, it starts as the big picture and then, you know, and then you just, it's like dial in and you focus in. And I, I , I'd like to say that it's like this, it's , um, sound is a puzzle, you know? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , if I change the output volume of a speaker in the sound system, that will have a ripple effect on other things. If I change, you know, the, the level of the guitar overall through the show . I mean, that has a ripple effect though . But , so it's just like, it's, you move one part and, you know , Nevin likes to say, and I like that his analogy about this, it's like sifting for gold. Sometimes you solve one thing and that reveals something else. Right. Uh, so, you know, you sort of, it's sort of a, like a spiral. You sort of circle around it and, and the circle gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until one day it just goes dinging <laugh> . Yeah . It
Speaker 1:Just all, it all
Speaker 3:Slot slots together. And that also has to do with , you know , the a one learning the show. I mean, they're mixing , um, they're mixing the show line by line . So if there's two people on stage having a conversation, only one person's microphone is open at one at a time.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:For every single line that they speak. There's a really interesting , um, video that was done where , where you can witness , um, a friend of mine, Kevin McCoy mix some of Hamilton actually, and I, I forget what show it was on, it's it , there's a video on YouTube and ,
Speaker 1:Uh , oh my gosh. At the rate and pace that those, they are going and it's like a , it , they're calling back. It's, there's no pause. What an orchestration. Like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3:I've attempted to learn the show. Yeah. And , uh, uh, I was actually training to become a sub on it, which ended up not panning out because I ended up on some other projects. And so I couldn't stay committed to it. But , uh, my, a friend of mine was like, Hey, good luck with the Reynolds pamphlet, which is like the, the really fast wrap number in Act two . The , you know , uh, you're never gonna be president. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , it's so unbelievably fast. It's so fast. It really, I'll say though, it being fast is fine because once you learn it, because that entire show, and Hades Town similarly, is all to music, right ? It all has to like slot into a rhythm. And so for me, actually mixing dialogue scenes is harder because they don't necessarily follow the same, the actors don't necessarily follow the same rhythm in those scenes. 'cause they have a little bit more freedom. They don't have to be on, on a beat. Right. So, but I mean, I haven't mixed anything in about five years. So,
Speaker 1:So let's talk about this remarkable journey. Like, you, you go from, like, it sounds like you go from like, kind of stumbling into it, you know, during high school, while you're juggling lots of other things , um, you come into this space, and one of the things that I have loved about this is that you seem to have a voracious desire to learn. Um, right. Because it seems like you didn't have formal training coming into the space. It was like, I'm gonna learn this thing. I work , we're gonna figure it out, out, and then I'm gonna make an art of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And it seems like you're having a ton of fun. So you get to this point where you've started to build a network, you've got that, and then Tony's like, when, and , and, you know, I , I hit the Tony's, you go, okay. Along those ways, you've won tons of awards , uh, you've had a tremendous amount of recognition, but then you get a show like Hayestown Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that , um, for our listeners out there, and I'd love for you to kind of take us through it, but you know, for me , um, you know, I think we all know Hamilton, but Hayestown is actually , um, is something so remarkable in the story that it tells, but it is like the, the music is so stirring and there , the, the blend between effects and music, and it all culminates and creates a part of the story. If you turned off the sound, you'd miss so much of the emotion Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , uh, the human emotion in, in every scene. And so tell us a little bit about one, how do you land a show like that? And then two <laugh> , because that in itself, right , uh, is I think an important part of the journey. But I think too is, you know, how do you go from, when you were talking a little bit about, you know, every day of that first in interaction of when you get to Broadway crying, to finding the joy and getting really excited about doing something this big.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, yeah. I mean, there was a lot of joy. And there was also, you know, the, the absolute just sheer knowledge of, oh my gosh, I'm actually designing a Broadway show. Um, but just to rewind a little bit , um, I, I landed a show like Hayestown because of Nevin. He hired me as his associate to do the Canada production. And , um, he had limited availability. He offered my me up as an associate who could go in his stead , and he would come visit. And I went to Canada, worked on the show, and then a year later, approximately a year , uh, they were gonna do a production of the show, another out of town. Like , I think the idea was to move the show to Broadway after Canada. But , uh, they decided to do another out of town . And we did it in London at the National, which is just like one of the most amazing facilities to work at. I just love that place. Um, and I remember I had stopped into a rehearsal one day to like watch a run through , and my producer was there and she's like, can I talk to you for a minute in the other room? And I was like, what? <laugh> ? Oh God. Okay. Uh , sure. And , um, she said that they wanted to make me co-designer of the show. And I was like, does Nevin know about that? Like, she's like, oh, yeah, no. He was part of the conversation. And so I called him and he, you know, he is like, are you okay with that? And I was like , yeah, I'm okay with that. So I went to London to do the show there, and he came out to visit, and, and then we were, we were actually together the whole time on Broadway, which was great. And, you know, I, I learned so much from him. Um, and it was so wonderful to have a friend and a colleague and a mentor that I admire and love working with, be there for my first design. You know, the Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . It , it just, it felt like, it just felt like such a wonderful support system. And I, I, I remember , uh, I'm not certain that I, I , I think at this point I've told him this story, but right before we went to Broadway, I read Tina Faye's book , uh, bossy Pants <laugh> . I love that book. It's so good. So good. Yeah. It's so good. But there was one part that really stood out to me because I, of course was, you know, Nevin was around for part of Canada and London, but not through the whole process each time. And I was having a little bit of stress about how do I do this with him the whole time? Um, and, and the reason I was stressed is because I believe that , um, I believe at , at least for me, in , in my story in my life, that equality is not just about people treating me as their equal, but about feeling like I am their equal. Yeah . Right? Yeah. Because, and, and I think that they're two very separate things. Yeah. And they also play into each other. Right. Because he could treat me like his equal all day long. If I don't feel that way in myself, in my own body, in my own spirit, in my own work, then it, you know, how he treats me isn't gonna land. I mean , he always treats me as an equal. That's totally a thousand percent. But I went into it going like, okay, I have to, I have to believe that I have to show up feeling like he's equal. And when I am having a conversation with him artistically about a moment in the show, I need to not feel intimidated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And not only , uh, is he my mentor, but you know, for the last five years, the relationship we had was me as his associate, not as his co-designer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Right. And as an associate, there's just a, you know, I may have an opinion about something and I might share that with him, but ultimately it's not up to me. Right. I , like, I might have an idea. Um, and, but as a co-designer, I'm, I can have an idea and I can also be like, no, I really think this is how it ought to be. And in Tina Faye's book , there is, and it's actually in a like gray box, and she describes improv, and I read that portion . I actually like took a photo of it, so I carried it around with me everywhere. And it's about improv being about, yes. And , you know, it's, improv doesn't work if someone says that they're a pickle and the other person doesn't believe that they're a pickle, they can't respond in an improvisational way. And I just thought that was such a great piece of advice to take with me into that room and, and approach working with him in a yes end way, in which if he questioned me or he had an idea, I would say yes. And also, what if we did Yes. And also, yes. And the reason it was born that way, or the reason that it is designed that way is because here are the steps that we took in Canada and London that landed us into this place, but what is , what is it that you think and, oh, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's do that. Um, and then we'd have really like good fun on stage because I'd be like, oh my God, this monitor sounds terrible. We'd like walk it around like , Jason , he's like, well, why'd you, why'd you make it that way?
Speaker 1:<laugh> ? Yeah . Why'd you do that <laugh> ?
Speaker 3:Um, and , uh, or, you know, something would happen and he'd be like, I don't know, go talk to the sound designer <laugh>
Speaker 1:<laugh> .
Speaker 3:So we'd have, we'd have a lot of, we'd have a lot of fun, which was good. But that, that book and that particular excerpt about improv has just been something I've carried with me for since that, since that moment, since I've read it.
Speaker 1:How do you, so where do you find your confidence? I mean, where do , where does it come from? Because you, you have a con . It's contagious. Um, it really is.
Speaker 3:Uh , uh, that's really interesting that you say that. And, and , um, uh, I , people laugh at me when I say that I'm shy, actually, and they're like , you are not shy. You are not subtle. You are not shy.
Speaker 1:I have never met a New York kid, like somebody who grew up in New York, who's actually shy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1:How does that work? <laugh> taken a lot of work. Yeah . Um ,
Speaker 3:To be honest, you know, it's, I, I was very shy as a child . Okay. And , um, I, I, you know, I was not popular in elementary school. I was a nerd. And , um, I was as
Speaker 1:The greats are usually <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yes. I was super tiny. Um, I'm still only like 115 pounds soaking wet, and I'm five foot three and a half. You know, I'm, I'm a small, small person. I don't feel , I , I don't, I don't act like I'm small. Like I don't, it doesn't occur to me that I'm little. It's like, it's like those little tiny dogs that think that they're like huge dobermans or something. It's like that's how does , it doesn't occur to me how tiny I actually am. Um, I , I would just say that it's always been a work in progress. And, you know, I have a lot of days where I 100% have complete imposter syndrome. Um, I don't, I don't know anyone personally who doesn't ever have that. Yeah. I think that it's,
Speaker 1:How do you quiet that? Yeah. How do you quiet that down? 'cause I, I have actually, I had a girlfriend who said , uh, to me, once upon a time I was having terrible imposter syndrome. I just landed a new role. It was thing, and we were doing something and I was feeling completely outta my comfort zone, which meant I was growing. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But I remember, like, she could see it in, in my face, and she said, you need to shut that up.
Speaker 3:<laugh> <laugh> ,
Speaker 1:You got into this room because of this, this, and this. Shut her up.
Speaker 3:I, I say that I, I, you know, I cope with it in , in the , in the sense that when I, when it comes down to having to get it done, I just get it done. There is no, there is no other option. It just needs to get done. Right. It needs to get done. It needs to get done. Well, we're working at the highest level that we're working. I am 100% a perfectionist. Um, and I will never actually achieve perfection. And I, but
Speaker 1:You know that. Yeah. But you know that, right. That there's a part of you that says you can strive for perfection and that's what makes you great <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Right. Okay . So there will always be a note. There will always be a note. Of course. I, you know, I will never mix a perfect show. I will never, you know, it's, it's, there will always be some little thing that probably the audience doesn't even notice. Um, but I know it , I know, I know that that was like ever so slightly a millisecond too late or what have you. Um, but yeah, when it comes down to it, I, there there's no room for that voice in my head when it's like go time. Um, it'll usually come into my brain at night or on my day off. And I mean, there's just no, there's just no choice
Speaker 1:In a live situation. You're absolutely right. You just, it feels like it's, you've gotta go with what your instinct is. And if you're, if you're good at your craft, then your instincts are probably right. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> a lot of the time. Sometimes they're wrong, but Yeah . But then, but you know, they're wrong. 'cause you try it and then you're like, oh, that's not right.
Speaker 1:<laugh> . Right. <laugh> ,
Speaker 3:Uh , you know, and I think that it actually, part of the way that I quiet her is that I have learned to not be afraid to fail. That took a lot of work and I still am working on that and I will be working on that for the rest of my life. But I, I constantly remind myself that it is okay to make a mistake because actually sometimes making a mistake might lead you to the right answer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the right idea. Um, so that's how I quiet it because we're human
Speaker 1:Listening to this episode with you, Rachel, our podcast sound designer. I'm always really curious as , uh, somebody who's in the area of this craft, what did you think?
Speaker 6:Well, the two things that really stuck out to me is sound is like a puzzle. Uh , I really love that because that is the truth of sound, especially when you're working in such a live setting. Because the guitar, the people, the general orchestra do not sound the same, but yet they need to have equal measure when it comes to being sure everyone has the same focus on what's happening on stage. And, you know, I enjoyed hearing as awkward as that sound. I enjoyed hearing that I'm not the only one with imposter syndrome. And it allows Jessica to fight to the eventual path of growth.
Speaker 1:I think she was so candid about that. I think the fact that she talked about , um, you know, that her growth , um, came with crying every single day. That that feeling, that discomfort actually meant that she was growing and she was growing , um, in a path that wasn't easy.
Speaker 6:Exactly. And it's also just the humility of understanding that while you do have all these awards and accolades, you need to be humble enough to be able to understand failure Totally. In a sense of a learning opportunity and not a step back in your career.
Speaker 1:Totally. And I think Jessica Poz is a great example of how that humility comes to life. It makes her so real, so approachable. Um, and I really think the world of Jessica and her work,
Speaker 6:No. And I'm very excited 'cause uh, when we go to the premium content, you'll hear a lot more about that. Want to read us out?
Speaker 1:This episode was written and produced by the Design Corps at Aurora 21 in the heart of New York's magical Hudson Valley. Special thanks to the musical talents of Rachel Bickley, our podcast sound designer. Our theme music was composed by substance studios. If you're already following the show, you are well on your way to designing a better future today. Design . If not, design ,
Speaker 3:Design , design , design ,
Speaker 1:It's time to join our community and feel the magic. Go to your favorite podcast, service and search designed by with Joanna Pena Bickley . And hit follow .