The Shadows of Anticipatory Loss

Today's guest is a kindred spirit, Vicki Paris Goodman, whose memoir "To Sam With Love" captures the essence of anticipatory grief. Our conversation covers that unexpected optimism and spiritual guidance that reach us in our depths of sorrow.

We talk about both engaging in life and embracing solitude. We examine the unique experiences of anticipatory grief, the surprising intersections of humor and healing, and how we discovered a renewed sense of purpose through the pain. Vicki's poignant stories and our mutual reflections offer hope and inspiration for anyone on this journey. Join us...

Contact:
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To Reach Vicki:
Pinterest:  https://www.pinterest.com/vickiparisgoodman/
Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/vickiparisgoodman
Bookbub:  https://www.bookbub.com/profile/vicki-paris-goodman
Author Central:  https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0BNJZ9XVF
Goodreads:
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23019683.Vicki_Paris_Goodman

Credits: 
Music by Kevin MacLeod 

Transcript

Stephanie: 0:01

Welcome to, As I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.

Kathy: 0:26

Hi everyone! Welcome back again to As I Live and Grieve. Thank you so much for tuning back in week after week. I really appreciate you, all of you, and, whether you know it or not, you have all helped me immensely on my grief journey as well. Another great guest. I always have great guests, don't I? I think so, I don't know. Are they attracted to me? I think I find them. It doesn't matter, they're all great. With us today is Vicki Paris Goodman. She's an author of a book called "To Sam With Love. It just sounds like such a sweet, sweet title. Also with me, of course, is Kelly, younger daughter, Texas resident. She's with me again today as co-host. Thanks, Kelly, and thanks so much, Vicki, for taking time out of your schedule.

Vicki: 1:10

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me, Kathy.

Kathy: 1:15

Oh, you're very, very welcome. It's definitely our pleasure. Actually, before we get started with my questions, and I always have numerous questions, would you just do us a favor and tell our listeners a little bit about your background?

Vicki: 1:27

Sure. I was born and lived the first 61 years of my life in the Los Angeles area. I'm a Valley girl. I grew up in Studio City, went to North Hollywood High and I moved in 2016 to Prescott, Arizona, with my husband, Sam. We moved there for retirement and that's where I live today. I did lose Sam to cancer not too long after we moved here, just a couple of years. That was completely unexpected and I decided to write the book "To Sam with Love. The subtitle is A Surviving Spouses Story of Inspired Grief and I know inspired grief sounds kind of like an oxymoron, but I kept that in the subtitle because it really describes, I think, what I experienced after Sam died. I just want to tell you a little more about myself. I'm a retired mechanical engineer and real estate appraiser. I play violin semi-professionally. I sing and I served a Long Beach area newspaper in California for over 20 years as their theater critic.

Kathy: 2:42

And that is what I would call an eclectic background. I love it, I love it though, I love it, but you certainly are invested in the arts. I can say that very, very easily.

Vicki: 2:55

Well, having been a mechanical engineer, I think the arts kind of balanced that.

Kathy: 3:01

Yes, yes, it was good of you to realize that you needed that balance. I think I know a bunch of engineers that could use a little more balance in their lives. We won't go there. Okay, let's get started. You lost your husband, Sam, by cancer. I lost my husband, Tom, by cancer. His was a brain tumor. So you and I have that parallel in our lives already. We also have that component.

Kathy: 3:26

Where you mentioned inspired grief, I called it for a long time intentional grief, because at the point in my life that I realized I don't want to live like this for the rest of my life, that moment you have that you are probably five days with no shower, maybe the same clothes, you've hardly eaten anything, and you just realize that you cannot go on this way. You need to do something. At that point, that was when I knew that I had to do something and I had to do it intentionally, or I was just going to wither away. I mean, people weren't going to contact me, I wasn't going to go anywhere, I was just going to exist until I no longer existed. I didn't want that.

Kathy: 4:09

I still had things to live for. I had both my daughters and grandkids. Well again, my friends. I don't want to talk about my friends, but there were things I had to live for, there were a lot of things I wanted to do before I gave up. So I turned things around and I experienced, I think, what you talked about inspired grief. But could you elaborate for us a little bit more? What do you mean by inspired grief for you?

Vicki: 4:35

Yes, I'm glad you asked, Kathy, because I think it was maybe a little different for me than what you described. Everybody's grief is different, but what happened

Vicki: 4:47

was well, let me just say first that I was raised in a secular family. Now I'd begun, while Sam was still alive, to sort of accept a higher power, but I hadn't taken that very far, and at the point he died, I realized that his continued existence for me depended on a stronger belief in both God and an afterlife. What happened the day he died is I felt lost and, at the same time, flooded with optimism. This was so unexpected. I'm not a particularly optimistic person. I'm kind of middle of the road. You know, I'm not pessimistic, I'm not optimistic, I'm just kind of in the middle. But what was happening to me I'm not optimistic was just so surprising. I felt like a helping hand was coming from somewhere outside myself to guide me and lead me, and I'm kind of a control freak, so the fact that I let myself be led is sort of astounding as well. It was just. Also, it was uncharacteristic of me, at least, that's the way I saw it.

Vicki: 6:02

IThis isn't my nature. So that's what I call inspired grief, because, after not only that, but all these coincidental things, that there were too many of them to really be chalked up to. Coincidence. The first couple. Like what? Yeah, I'll tell you about some of them, ok.

Vicki: 6:18

For example, a couple of them happened while Sam was still alive, like, for example, I was trying to get him into a clinical trial for an immunotherapy that was better for his cancer than the one he was scheduled to get when he finished his chemotherapy. He didn't qualify, and I was so frustrated One night after we went to bed I couldn't sleep. I was getting more and more agitated, and so I got up, I grabbed my tablet, I closed the doors up to the bedroom so that I wouldn't wake in Sam, and I took my tablet into the den and just started banging on it just to let off steam. When will Nyvolumab be approved for hepatocellular carcinoma? Well, the strangest thing happened. This post came up that was about 10 or 12 hours old. This immunotherapy had been approved for Sam's liver cancer that very day.

Vicki: 7:21

That was the first thing that happened, yeah, and then I was on my way to his celebration of life about a month after he died, that I would be hosting. I had it at a little venue and I was about maybe only a quarter mile from the venue, driving my car on the street. The venue was on and suddenly there was this cartoonish little blue car, kind of like a Volkswagen bug, but something else. I don't know what it was, and Sam's favorite flower had always been sunflowers. Well, on this little car there was like a plastic flower sticking up from the roof and it was bent back so that I could clearly see that it was a sunflower. Oh for goodness sakes.

Vicki: 8:05

I mean, when did you ever see a flower sticking up? It was just yeah. I'd never had that experience before, and I have a list of about five other things too. So serendipity was playing an outsized role in everything that happened after Sam died.

Kelly: 8:22

Yeah.

Kathy: 8:24

And do you know, if your mind hadn't been open to those things, you would have missed them. For whatever reason you had an open mind.

Vicki: 8:33

Well, that's the thing, because I'm the most unobservant person I know and again, this stuff isn't my nature. So again, more evidence that something from outside me, that helping hand, again was coming down to do something for me, or show me that maybe Sam was hovering around to boast to me yeah, yeah, if you allow things like that to happen.

Kathy: 9:01

I now believe I didn't used to, but I now believe that if you open yourself to receiving things like that, they'll be there. Those signs will be there. I used to joke about you cannot get something by sitting at home and waiting for it. Whatever it is you're looking for to come up to your door and knock on your door, that's not going to happen. You have to go look for it. But I now believe that if you are ready for it, just go out and walk around. It'll find you.

Vicki: 9:29

Well, you're absolutely right, Kathy, because not only did these things happen, but the timing of each and every one of them was so crazy. Serendipity, yes.

Kathy: 9:39

Yes, and I love that word serendipity. It just sounds so happy. It really does. I love words. Certain words do certain things to me, and serendipity to me means happy that's a cute word, it is. So. You had this inspired grief, which makes sense now as it pertains to you, and is that still with you?

Vicki: 10:03

Yes, One of the crazy things that happened is still happening. It happens almost every night and I write about it in the book. Soon after Sam died, I would get in bed and turn out the lights to go to sleep and just a few minutes later, before I really had fallen asleep, this smoky, grayish, white thing would kind of appear and I thought sometimes it was so subtle I wasn't even sure it was there and I thought, oh, this is just a manifestation of my eyes growing accustomed to the dark. But sometimes it would really be pretty vivid and a few months later it changed color. It changed to neon yellow-green.

Vicki: 10:41

And it's still neon yellow-green, and I tell the story of how I confirmed that this was indeed Sam's soul, a manifestation of Sam's soul.

Vicki: 10:54

How did I confirm it? Well, ok, I'll tell you All right. So one night, about a year after Sam died, I was really growing weary of wondering if this thing had anything to do with Sam. I wanted it to be Sam. And I said to God I said, listen, you know, I don't ask for things for myself. I always pray for other people. But I'm going to make an exception. I really need to know at this point if the neon yellow-green thing is Sam. So I have a plan. This is what you can do, I said. Tonight, after I turn out the lights, if you would just make the neon yellow-green thing more vivid than ever and just make it look different than it ever has, more there than it ever has before. And if it's not Sam, if it's not Sam, just give me jet black, because that also would be different. And I figured I had nothing to lose, because if it just appeared the same way it always had, it just meant God had chosen not to do what I'd ask.

Vicki: 11:54

So that night I was almost afraid to go to bed. I thought what have I done? What if I get jet black? Am I ready to find out? This hasn't been Sam all this time, but I can't stay up forever. So I go to bed and I turn out the light and usually the neon yellow-green thing took about three to five minutes to appear after I got in bed and it would gently float around for about 45 seconds to a minute and then just kind of fade off. So that night I turn out the lights and it's there immediately. Never happened before and it is vivid as can be, and instead of floating around, it goes, it goes. It just kind of frantically shoots across my view horizontally about three or four times and then really really rapidly and then gone. So I burst into tears and I thank God for confirming the identity of the apparition and I've never questioned, questioned it again.

Kathy: 12:52

Interesting, and do you still have that with you every night when you go to bed?

Vicki: 12:57

Just, about, and what's interesting is that three months ago it's been four and a half years since sound died. Okay, about three months ago the neon yellow green thing started, not always but sometimes being accompanied by another one kind of alongside it. That was is a vivid violet color, you know, kind of a reddish purple, the most gorgeous shade of violet you've ever seen, otherworldly. It's not always there, or sometimes it's real faint, but, boy, when it's vivid it is stunningly gorgeous. And I have no idea what that is.

Kathy: 13:32

I was just going to ask you if you had any identity.

Vicki: 13:35

Yeah, I keep asking Sam if he's with our Greyhound Sid, and he never answers me. And I'm thinking, gee, maybe the violet apparition is Sid. I don't know, I have no idea what it is. Who knows?

Kathy: 13:48

Who knows, I love those. I love those stories. I wish I had some visits like that, but you know, at the time they happened. If they first happened they'd probably freak me out. They'd probably take me a little bit before I really had a chance to fully understand them.

Vicki: 14:02

Yeah.

Kathy: 14:03

That's so, so interesting. So what was your why for writing your book? Why did you feel you needed to put it into writing?

Vicki: 14:12

A couple of things. First of all, I'm a writer because I did theater reviews for over 20 years for that paper in Long Beach and I love writing. But after about two years from the time Sam died and I'd had like seven of these strange occurrences, I had opportunities and possibilities just coming my way there for the taking and I was somehow motivated to grab all of them and do them. And they were all successful. And then these insights came and a couple of the best ones happened after I published the book. So they're not in the book, but all of this put together I thought could really help other surviving spouses or people who have lost any loved one, because I moved forward so easily and with such clarity. And I know it came from outside myself, so I'm nothing special, but well, I really feel this. This is not characteristic.

Kelly: 15:13

I know, you know, I know I get it.

Vicki: 15:16

I was being helped and I want to admit that to people and I want them to remember how secular I started, because you know this is not. I've never believed in most of these things, Yet they happened to me and I'm just here to tell about it. So that's why I wrote the book, because I really felt it had the potential to completely upend the way we look at death and loss and grief and our futures after loss.

Kathy: 15:44

Yeah Well, I have not yet had a chance to read your book because it was very quick from the time that you and I were introduced until we got to do this podcast, with good reason. With good reason, I love to have guests on that have personal stories as well, because I think it really helps our listeners identify with someone else who's gone through something similar. It's never going to be exactly alike. There are going to be parallels, there are going to be differences, but it always helps us as grievers to know that we're not alone, that there are other people out there too that have been devastated. They have lost someone so vital to them, yet they continue to go on. We all need that hope, that inspiration, and at the same time, it helps us identify, it helps us build our own personal community. Even if we never meet the person, we know they're there. We know they're there and that they have struggled and they are doing better each day. Now it's no secret that I will grieve for the rest of my life. I say it all the time.

Kathy: 16:52

It's been almost six years since my husband, Tom, died. There are days that are easy. Some days they're a little more difficult. I have never returned to that first devastation that I felt, and Kelly was with me in those days. She came up from Texas to be with me at that time and she knows what I went through. And then once everybody kind of goes their own way and it's just you you sink back down again. I've never gone way back there. But yeah, some days are difficult. Yeah, there's some days that I get these little twinges and I start to feel bad and then it turns around again.

Kathy: 17:30

We talked a bit about open minds, open hearts, and that's kind of become not really a theme for me but a real belief of mine lately, because I found that by really keeping myself open, so many great things are happening to me now they're just almost in droves. They're coming. It's almost horrifying to think. Just all this goodness that's coming my way and I love it. I'm loving every minute of it. So, as we talk about your book, I understand your reason for wanting to write it and I thank you for that, and I know our listeners will too, and we will make sure that our listeners know the name of the book so they can look for it as well. Did you find that writing the book helped you on your grief journey?

Vicki: 18:15

Everybody asks me that, Kathy, yes and no, I think the answer is no in the way most people mean it. In other words, I think they're asking if it was a cathartic experience to write it. I think after two years from when Sam died, which is when I wrote the book, I think I was kind of past the point of needing a catharsis or where it could really be that. But it was really good in that it got me to really start organizing the memories and getting them into a narrative for myself and everybody else, obviously, who would read the book. But it was really good for myself to come up with these stories so I could tell them in the book and say, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, and it made me so happy. There was very little that I remembered that was sad. It was almost all things that made me laugh or smile. You know, Sam was a very funny man for one thing, so I remembered a lot of his jokes.

Kathy: 19:19

Right, right, yeah, yeah, humor has always played a big part and my Tom was the same way. He was very, very funny. He had lots and lots of friends, and they all had great sense of humor too, and some of them God bless them they even brought it to his celebration of life. I remember Tim Horton's coffee cup in particular. That made me break out in laughter at his celebration, and then, of course, I was embarrassed that I, the widow, had done that, but I got over it. I think everybody else did too, and those that knew Tom understood that that Tim Horton's coffee cup meant everything to him. So, with the writing and everything, and with your grief, now what you experienced, knowing that Sam had cancer and this was a terminal diagnosis and at some point he was going to get to the end of his life. There's a lot of talk about anticipatory grief and how it may or may not prepare you for that day. Do you feel that you were prepared in your anticipatory grief?

Vicki: 20:18

Yeah, I have to admit I was when we first got that diagnosis.

Vicki: 20:22

I drove, because I didn't want Sam to see me extremely upset. So for an every afternoon for an entire week I drove to this Starbucks in the town where we live, where there I knew there was a patio out back that hardly anybody ever used and I knew I could just sit there and be alone. So I drove over there and sat there and cried my eyes out for about an hour every day for a week until I decided that the ritual had sort of served its purpose and I needed to move on. And I did stop crying after that and I think I did a lot of anticipatory grieving that week. Now, that's not to say that I didn't have anxiety and all kinds of other manifestations of grief during that time when it was getting closer to his passing. So yes, you know that's subject to interpretation. I don't think the question can really be answered as to whether, if you really suffer that anticipatory grief, whether you can completely eliminate the effects of the death when it actually happens.

Vicki: 21:29

I can't imagine that that is the reason I did so well afterwards after he died.

Kathy: 21:35

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think the anticipation I we had eight months, almost to the day, from the day he was given his terminal diagnosis until the day he took his last breath. And I can say that period of time, although I was busy every moment taking care of him until he was in a facility when I could no longer safely do it. But then I was spending my time going back and forth to visit with him and keep him company and try to keep him engaged and interact with him. It, I think, if anything, it, prepared me for the moment of his death, but it did not prepare me for much beyond that. I guess I would say I'd have to qualify it that way.

Kathy: 22:20

I do remember leaving the facility after he died, walking to my car in the parking lot, and I had a brief moment where I was overwhelmed with gratitude that that was finally over, that it was finally done and it was time to move in a different direction. But then, within moments, the tears came on and then I started living that devastation that everyone lives. It just confirms for me the fact that everyone's grief is different. Every situation is different. Every person is different. You're at a different point in your life financially, emotionally, everything physically even. So, anticipatory grief can prepare you for parts of it, but it still doesn't prepare you for the reality that you have to deal with after someone you love is gone.

Vicki: 23:08

Right. Would you agree with that?

Kathy: 23:14

Would you agree with that? Thanks, thanks, all right. One more thing I want to focus on before it'll be time to wrap up. I have found that my grief has in some ways helped me, motivated me, empowered me, inspired me to do something more with my life than I may have intended or thought I intended. Have you found that?

Vicki: 23:35

Well, yes, writing the book is the obvious thing, but honestly, it turned out I could sing. I never knew that before. Now I sing in public. Oh yeah, I even auditioned for a staged reading not long after Sam died at our community playhouse and I got the female lead in the play. I mean, this is what I mean by inspired grief. This is crazy stuff and it was just happening for me. I moved on in that way, but I think the culmination was the writing of the book.

Vicki: 24:06

And now trying to talk about it with you and others.

Kathy: 24:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating to me and it's one of the things that I'm trying to focus on now. I'm also working on a book. I'm working on several things, but I do want to kind of let people know that at some point it can turn around. You can use what you are experiencing to help propel you, if you will, if you'll allow me to use that word, to help propel you in a different direction. That perhaps you never thought of, but maybe is really one of the signs on the road to Yo, over here. You're supposed to be over here doing this. Yeah, I feel like it's helped to me. So what would you say and I know you've got something right on the tip of your tongue, I can see it but what also would you say to people who are grieving, so that they can use their grief to be inspired?

Vicki: 25:01

One of the main things I learned right after Sam died was that being open to the guidance I spoke about earlier, and not just that, but being open to opportunities and possibilities that come your way, things that maybe you couldn't have done while you were married because the marriage took up certain amounts of time social time, whatever and now suddenly you're free to maybe look in a different direction and be open to that. It could expand your world so much. And the other thing I would also tell listeners is what worked for me and I have a feeling it would work for most people is to strike a balance between activity and alone time. People said keep yourself as busy as possible. I know they were trying to help, but I ignored their advice. I knew that was the wrong path.

Vicki: 26:00

You have to process what's happened to your life after you lose the love of your life, but you also don't want to cocoon and roll up into a ball and do nothing. So you strike a balance between the two and the alone time can be spent hiking, walking, watching TV, just sitting and thinking, writing, but just quiet time. And boy, that sure worked for me. In fact, just an interesting little side note is that was working so well for me that when COVID hit just a few months after Sam died, it really upset that balance, and that was the only time after he died that I actually suffered a couple of really devastating depressions, which, curiously, each lasted exactly 10 days, and I knew it was because of all the angst around the pandemic and nobody knew what was going on, but also because that balance between activity and alone time was completely upset and suddenly I was spending way too much time alone.

Vicki: 27:08

So I know the balance was the key.

Kathy: 27:11

Balance is definitely a critical word, and we talk about self-care a lot, and part of that is to find some balance. I find some of the times that I have where I am alone, I am not lonely, I am alone, and some of that is some of the most precious time I have. I have a chance to focus, to think you're doing pretty good, Kath, or you better get back on the ball, because you're kind of slipping there. I can talk to myself, I can just do nothing. I love especially to be in the woods or at the beach on a cruise ship with a margarita, never mind. But I love to be somewhere and just have that time where I don't really have to do anything except breathe and that's automatic. So I'm good to go, yes.

Vicki: 28:01

I agree with everything except the margarita. I'll take the gin martini.

Kathy: 28:05

All right, that's fair enough, I'll buy you one. Anyway, it has come time now for us to wind down and say our farewells, but before I do that, I want to turn the microphone over to you and let you speak directly to our listeners, without me interrupting you with questions.

Vicki: 28:24

OK, thank you, Kathy. Yeah, what I want to do is give a gift to the listeners. Now that listeners, you've heard some of the insights and revelations and serendipitous events that I experienced after my husband, Sam, died. I've actually reserved the most startling insights for a three-part series. It's an audio series I've recorded that's available for free. I generally offer this series to audiences of my speaking engagements, and I even taught a course at one point and those things but for a limited time I'm offering the series to podcast listeners. Please take advantage of this. It is really worthwhile. These audio clips will upend the way you think of death and loss and, if you're stuck in grief, they will allow you to move on. The three episodes are about 10 to 14 minutes in length each, and just visit inspiredgrief. com, enter your email address and you will get limited time access to those three episodes and these important concepts will really assist you in moving on, I promise. So I wanted to offer that to everyone and, Kathy, thank you so much for having me.

Kathy: 29:51

Oh, I can't wait for those audio clips. How about you, Kelly? I'm eager now, I've got to have those. Yeah, thank you, Vicki, so much. I know that you're working on a second book. Oh, yeah, you want to tell everybody about that.

Vicki: 30:07

Sure, it's called "Speed Bumps and Other Impediments to Life in the Fast Lane. It's about the trials and tribulations of life, but especially from the perspective of a type A personality, it's pretty self-deprecating. I'm having a lot of fun with it and, as soon as I can get back to it, it will be done shortly and then I'll be able to talk about that book on interviews as well.

Kathy: 30:32

Well, I'll have to find a reason to just have you back for a guest again, won't we? That will be fun. I always love it when guests come back, so I'm sure that will be no problem at all. Oh good, we'll keep our eyes peeled for that one as well. Now, do you have a newsletter on your website or anything, a way that people can stay in touch? I have a blog.

Vicki: 30:52

Now, inspiredgrief. com is the domain where the three episodes are, but I have a website. I also have a website, vickip aris goodman. com. That's Vicky V-I-C-K-I Paris, like the city in France, goodmancom, and there are some reviews of the book there. There's a blog with some interesting articles I've written and posted there. Yeah, so that's a good and they can contact me there.

Kathy: 31:19

Super, super. That sounds like it would be some time well spent and keep you away from some of those rabbit holes, right.

Kelly: 31:27

Those are all over the internet.

Kathy: 31:28

Yeah. Nice, nice. I haven't made it there yet, but I certainly will.

Kelly: 31:34

Oh, I'm so glad.

Kathy: 31:36

Yeah.

Kelly: 31:36

Yeah.

Kathy: 31:37

Yeah Well, Kelly, did you have any questions for Vicki before I wrap up?

Kelly: 31:41

I guess the only question I would ask is OK, s o my father passed away about 12 years ago and I don't think I've processed it yet fully. I was caring for his wife and stepdaughter during that time and then I just got angry after the way they treated me after his death. So I never processed it, I just moved on. Any suggestions on where I could start?

Vicki: 32:05

Yeah, recognize that God has a plan for you. That's one of the things I talk about in these three audio episodes, and that plan is there to give you certain experiences and teach you certain lessons while you're here on earth. So when something bad happens, people treat you badly or some other, you know everything, from a bad hair day to you know your house burns down. Whenever those things happen, I would encourage you, because I've learned this way too late in life encourage you to say what is God's intended takeaway here? And just, I think when you think about it that way, it makes it begins to make sense of the loss, the way you were treated, because you're supposed to learn things while you're here.

Vicki: 32:55

Right, I am convinced of it, I'm so excited so maybe start thinking yeah, so maybe start thinking of these things that way. I don't know if that helps you, Kelly, but I think it might be a start.

Kelly: 33:06

Yeah, it gives me a jumping off point. I really appreciate it. It makes a lot of sense, of course. Sure.

Kathy: 33:11

Great insight, great question, Kelly. Y eah, okay, so it is now time, sad to say, to say goodbye. Remember self care, and self care can be as simple as tuning into our podcast. You're taking care of yourself, you're connecting with people who are traveling a similar path or, if you happen to be supporting someone who is grieving, maybe it might give you some additional insight into what they may be feeling by hearing us speak, and we speak very candidly about our feelings and the difficulties as well as the triumphs. Vicki, again, I want to say thank you so much. Kelly, thanks for joining me today and coasting alongside with me, and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in again and again and please, please, please, come back again next time, as we all continue to live and grieve.

Stephanie: 34:27

Thank you for joining us today..