Today's episode finds us with the complete triad: an adoptive mother, an adoptee, and the biological mother who made the heart-rending decision to place her child for adoption in the 1960s. These experiences are real, punctuated by silent grief and laid bare for you, the listener. Their words reveal the lasting void such a decision can create, as well as the profound impact of a reunion that came decades later—a poignant reminder of the lifelong journey adoption etches into the lives it touches.
Contact:
www.asiliveandgrieve.com
info@asiliveandgrieve.com
Facebook: As I Live and Grieve
Instagram: @asiliveandgrieve
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Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Today's episode finds us with the complete triad: an adoptive mother, an adoptee, and the biological mother who made the heart-rending decision to place her child for adoption in the 1960s. These experiences are real, punctuated by silent grief and laid bare for you, the listener. Their words reveal the lasting void such a decision can create, as well as the profound impact of a reunion that came decades later—a poignant reminder of the lifelong journey adoption etches into the lives it touches.
Contact:
www.asiliveandgrieve.com
info@asiliveandgrieve.com
Facebook: As I Live and Grieve
Instagram: @asiliveandgrieve
YouTube: asiliveandgrieve
Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Welcome to, as I Live in Grief, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone, welcome back again to as I Live in Grief. This is the second part of an episode we did a few weeks ago called the adoption triad, and we're coming back for a second part because today we actually have the complete triad. That means we have someone who was adopted as a child, we have someone who adopted a child or children, and then we have the biological mother, the birth mother, of someone who gave up her child for adoption. These are not all the same child, so I want you to know that. So again, welcome With me. Today, I have an abundance of people with me and I love it. With me are Pat, vera, tina. So, one by one, I'm just going to ask each of you to say hi Vera, say hi Hi everybody, tina, hello, good morning.
Speaker 4:Good morning everyone.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned, we're going to talk about the adoption triad. Okay, the adoption triad. There are three components, and if I think of the situation of adoption in connection with grief, the first thing I think of, and the most prominent aspect of it that I think of, is the biological mother, and that myriad of emotions that must have been felt and I'm only guessing, because I have not experienced it myself that myriad of emotions that are felt when you are faced with and you make a decision of this caliber. We learned in our last episode, though, that there is grief present in the other two components of the triad as well. So, as a way to catch up, first you might want to listen to the other episode, because right now I'm going to start with Pat. You've agreed to be here today, and I appreciate it so much because I know this was not an easy time in your life. Regardless of the reasons for your decision, can you kind of explain how grief played a part in your life after the decision was made?
Speaker 4:Well, once I had the child and I made the decision before that and it was back in the 60s, so things were a little different then compared to what they are now but the fact that you have relinquished a child and you don't know if you're ever going to see that child again you were told you weren't going to it's just such an emptiness and you're sort of numb. There was no counseling back in those days. You were just told that you did the right thing, just forget about it and move on. And you tried to do that. But you know, physically you're in pain from having had the child and, if you've ever had a child, of the emotional things that go along with it as well.
Speaker 4:And it's just. It's hard to describe what that feeling really is, but you take the next step forward. But I would say that the grief and the emptiness never goes away. You just sort of had to put it on the shelf and move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say almost exactly that, in fact, and you mentioned the emptiness that's probably one of the best words I can think of that might describe it is that emptiness, and I was going to ask you in fact, did it ever go away? The answer to that is no. Did it lessen it all? Did it change it?
Speaker 4:all it never lessened. That part always kind of stays the same. But you do have to move on. Just like everything else, you have to move forward. You can't stay there forever, so it depends on your next step. You know I was and no one knew. So it was just myself and my friend that I had lived with and her husband. That was basically it. They were the only people that knew. So there was no one I could come back to to talk about it with. And back then you didn't talk about things like that. Just like every other thing that happened here in life that was grief related, you didn't talk about those things, you just stuffed them. And you know you just went on, come back, I had to get a job, I had to start over again, and but you don't ever forget that Right.
Speaker 2:And I think it must hurt even more knowing that you can't share it. And the reason I say that is because, with the losses I've had in my life, it brings me a little bit of comfort, for example, to mention my late husband's name or to share a memory of him with people, but you didn't even have the ability or advantage or privilege of doing that.
Speaker 2:This was a stuff it in the closet, move forward, never speak of it. Exactly, exactly. I am so, so sorry that you had to endure that Now. Did there come a time, a point? Did you know your child had been adopted? Did you get any communication?
Speaker 4:Actually, my adoption was a private adoption. I did not go through an agency, but no, I never knew. All I knew is that he was being adopted by a family in Texas and that they were professionals. And no, I never. Back then they were closed adoptions. No, the adoptive parents didn't ever have to share anything and, as a young woman who's really wished a child, nobody ever told you what maybe some of your rights might have been at that time. You know, maybe there's something else that could have happened, but nobody really told you much of anything back then.
Speaker 2:All right. Oh gosh, this is hard. It's hard for me to talk about it. It must be really, really difficult for you to kind of relive it in this conversation. Again, thank you. Have you had any communication with your?
Speaker 4:child In 2009,. My friend that I had lived with when I was pregnant and had him, received a letter from him and he was looking for me. So in 2009, we reunited and he was 44 years old at the time, wonderful and I had been married and I had three more children, but nobody ever knew. My husband knew, but no one else ever knew.
Speaker 2:So this was.
Speaker 4:I was surprised, but I was so happy. It was always something that. I wanted, and I just thought, when he was 18, he would be able to go to the courthouse, get his adoption records, get my name. And finally, I did not know that original birth certificates are sealed when their adoption is final and they get amended for a certain my goodness.
Speaker 4:So I don't think the general public even knows today that when a child is adopted their original birth certificate is sealed and they do not have access to it unless they go through the court. That's changing in a lot of states now. Minnesota just passed the law last year, so in Minnesota on July 1st 2024, adoptees can now go and get their original birth certificate and their names should be on here, but not rarely are the birth father's names on there, and that's sort of true in the United States.
Speaker 4:So that's changing in Minnesota. So there's only 15 states where you have open where adoptees can go and get their original birth certificate and the one thing that's a very important piece of paper that validates who you are, and adoptees want that validation.
Speaker 2:Right, right, goodness, goodness. Well, congratulations, Minnesota, and to the other states that are loosening things up Now. Tina, you were adopted as a child and our listeners, of course, couldn't see this, but as Pat was speaking and talking about the sealed birth certificates, you were nodding your head. So what do you want to say about this?
Speaker 5:Well, by the time that I can get my original birth certificate, I will be almost 65 years old, and so I have been doing this my whole life, since I was about 17, searching, and I have been reunited with my birth mother, although it's not a very good situation, and when I read about this, when I saw this was going to change in Minnesota, I just can't even explain what that meant to me.
Speaker 5:That, finally, somebody was saying it's okay if you have your own birth certificate, right, right, because I've never been able to see it. I have seen very little of my adoption papers. The one thing I wanted to add to what Pat said is, while original birth certificates will be available as of July 1st in Minnesota, we still cannot get access to our adoption records because they are sealed for 100 years. And so I may be able to get my original birth certificate, but I only have the front page of my adoption record, which states my name, and so I already know my birth name. But it's hard to explain when you've gone your whole life seeing false information, knowing that it's not real, knowing that your birth record was sealed and that your adopted parents are now listed as your birth parents, and so I'm elated.
Speaker 5:I cannot wait. I'm very excited about this. I don't expect that there will be much information on there that will be useful to me, since I have already found my birth mother and I doubt that she listed my birth father, like Pat said, during the 60s, that just wasn't done, and so we'll see what happens. But I am extremely excited about this and I hope to I hope to spread the word and tell every adoptee I know in Minnesota that you know this is happening, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I'm horrified that I really am. I'm horrified that this information would be kept private from the very person it impacts the most. Yeah, it is horrifying. It is Vera. You adopted children. Come on.
Speaker 3:Right. Well, the weirdest thing about this is, you know, russia is I mean, that's where my kids came from and it is like closed, right, tina's tried to like go through those barriers over there. You can't get in, right. But the one thing they really do give you is the original birth certificate. I mean it is in Russian, it is authentic and but there's no time of birth, which is hard if you're trying to get their astrology charts done, but right and all that. But so I just find that fascinating that Russia gives you that much information. But of course, when you come here, then with them, you want to get their you know social security cards and their you know passports and all that, and that's just a nightmare when you bring these documents into. You know the DMV, like it's always every time they have to get something renewed or, you know, started a new school, it was always like, oh God, here we go, here we go, we gotta go through with these, you know, these original birth certificates again, and nobody knows what to do.
Speaker 3:And so it's almost like let's go, let's try again tomorrow. Maybe there'll be somebody else at the DMV that'll understand what to do. You know, I mean, that's always a little trouble, but yeah, we do have those, but that's about it. And the names of the birth parents and their heights and, I think, eye color, hair color, but that's it.
Speaker 2:But they also have the name of the father.
Speaker 3:Yes, but again, like Tina and Pat have said, you know, you just don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very good, very true, Very true. Okay, and now to catch the conversation up, pat offered some of her feelings and emotions about grief in relation to her perspective on the triad. Let's go back to Tina, and when we talked last time, I'd like you to just kind of recap about what types of grief related emotions you had being adopted as a child. What were you grieving and still actually are grieving?
Speaker 5:Yes, well, so many layers I mean that's the best word I can come up with because the very first layer is finding out you're adopted and sort of disbelief, but also grief, because it's a big, it's the abyss. You have no idea where you came from, who you were, who your parents were. It's kind of scary in a way, because you know I was adopted at nine months and I know that I was in foster care through Catholic Charities and I have one picture of myself when I was, I want to say, five months old maybe, and it was taken by a foster parent. And then I have no other pictures until I'm nine months old and I was adopted and so you're. It's a grief that is so linked with the unknown and sadness and it's really hard to describe.
Speaker 5:But and then, over the years, you know, as I came into my teenage years and I realized that this was information I had to know and I really wanted to search, then the grief came because my birth mother or, I'm sorry, my adoptive mother was so against it and she was pretty mad actually that I wanted to pursue this and I tried to convince her that it really had nothing to do with her. It was just me trying to figure out who I am, where I came from, and she just fought me every step of the way, and so there was another layer of grief. I just thought you know, I need your help, I don't need your anger, I need your help. But she always perceived it as a betrayal, or as a threat.
Speaker 2:I see.
Speaker 5:Okay, and so you know. I guess for me the main grief is the abyss. It's just not knowing where you came from, who you are, what your ethnicity is, what your ancestors were. I mean, it's really a big black hole, and I think that's kind of what you carry, what I carry anyway.
Speaker 2:Okay, Vera, from your corner of the triad here, I kind of recall that we talked about two different components that, as the mother of, as the mother of adopted children, you may also be grieving the life that you originally thought you were going to have but couldn't, for whatever reason. As well, you're trying to help your adopted children now deal with their grief. So you've got all of these layers and layers. Tina is a great word. So, Vera, how about some of your perspective?
Speaker 3:Yeah, layers is a perfect. It's a perfect way because you're, you know, here you're the mom and you're dealing with your own and it's, you know, for me I didn't need, I didn't have this need to have a child like through my body. I guess I was just one of those people. Adoption came very quickly for me and my husband. We didn't feel like we wanted to do in vitro and all that. So, you know, we kind of went in it with you know, like cited, and then you realize whoa, you know, there's a lot more going on here, because they're grieving, clearly there's something going on with them, and then, like I said, there's kind of this birth mom component that you're always kind of dealing with, and so it's when they're angry at you sometimes the anger is really at her and you kind of, and the mom gets it the worst. I don't know why, but I dads just seem to be out of the picture in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:I don't know what it is but it's like the mom thing, the birth mom and the doctor's mom kind of going at it in a weird subconscious way, even though I was very open for them to know about her and all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of times it's for me. It's because the kids are so assured and sure of the love that their mom has for them that they know that they can lash out and that love will still be there. That is true. They know that they will be forgiven. So I think that's because moms always get the worst anyway. Yes, and now bring it up. I just see it happen day in and day out.
Speaker 3:I'm a fan to birth mom, you know, like, so what, like one of my, if you know if, what if my daughters made a joke, like they have like the name of their birth dad, but she was just like made this off cuff joke. She's like maybe Putin's my dad, who knows, you know. And I thought, hmm, you know, like it's still not real. There's still, there's a name and all that, but it's still not real and like you know, it's the abyss. It could be anybody. You know it could be anybody.
Speaker 3:Really, if you really think about it, you know and then I wanted to also bring up and I'm blown away that the media has not tapped into this but, like with the Brad Pitt situation, with Brad Pitt, nanjalee and Julie, if you follow that and I've been following it because I'm very interested is they wanted to create this family, right, these international children with birth children, and just kind of throw them all together. Well, if you've noticed, when they got divorced, first of all, there was some something that went on with the adoptive son on a plane. It was physical, which you know, my, my gut was. There was something, some attachment issue going on perhaps, and they were having a fight, you know, like trying to contain him, maybe the child, I don't know, but the three adopted children want nothing to do with him. They have completely dropped him as a dad.
Speaker 3:One has changed her name, taken away her name, and the birth children are basically looking at it as my parents are divorced. So I just think that, compounded, like to me, it seems like they're really again feeling betrayed, abandoned, or anger that is coming out of those two, like one posted all kinds of horrible things about Brad Pitt and the Hollywood community is all like what? What? Brad's amazing, you know, and I'm thinking, oh boy, here we go, like here we go.
Speaker 3:The kind of anger these kids hold. Yeah, it's not about you necessarily, brad. It's a lot of layers and that media. No one's touched it like no one. No expert has come in, nobody's talking about it, and to me it's so obvious.
Speaker 2:Reach out to them and tell them your perspective.
Speaker 3:Perhaps Right Right about it. I feel bad for Brad in a way, because I think he's getting a bad rep because of it.
Speaker 2:Wow, Okay, I'm going to circle back now to Pat. Now that you have heard Tina and Vera's comments and perspectives, do you have anything you'd like to add from your?
Speaker 4:Well, one thing I want to say is that I know that all adoptees wonder why their mother didn't keep them or their birth parents didn't keep them, and right most birth mothers birth parents, I'll say birth parents but they really never wanted to really push their children and so many women were underage and their parents really made the decision. And so adoptees just want to know their story. They want to know, they just want to know who they are and they want to know their story. And most of the time when you get into reunion and not everybody wants to be reunited I was thrilled. I have a wonderful son and I always wondered where he was, how he was doing it all of that. But he finally, like Tina, he was finally able to get his story, get his medical information and I hope it put his pieces together. It just meant so many hearts.
Speaker 4:Sometimes, when a birth mother and an adoptee get together, it's not always so good for some reason, and a lot of times the adoptive parents feel very betrayed. If their adoptee wants to find their birth parents, they think, well, you know, I gave you Right. So a lot of adoptees do not look for their birth parents until their adoptive parents may have passed away, because it's very, very traumatic. So the grief and the trauma, it just falls on forever and even after you are reunited, if it's good or bad then you grieve all the years that you weren't able to be together. I mean it's good and you can go from this point on. But gosh, what all did, what?
Speaker 4:all did mean.
Speaker 2:You know, pat, you you're an incredible woman, because twice now you have answered my question before I asked it. I was just going to ask you since you have been reunited, did that remove your grief? And the answer is no, because now you have a new layer of grief, and that's for all the years you could have had with this wonderful, wonderful young man that you didn't get to experience Again. Thank you, tina. Coming around the circle again, I want to ask we've heard her. You guys have said many times that the father is not normally included in there. Do you think this is something that's going to change and would you like to know, for example, more about your dad?
Speaker 5:Oh yes. Well, whether it will change or not, I don't know. I'm not that up on the current laws in all of the states. It's not because there's no federal law. It's state by state what happens with original birth certificates and adoption records. I've always wanted to know who he was and I searched and searched. The first time I met my birth mother when I was 19. She told me one thing. She gave me a name and told me this story about how she had been in Colorado. She got pregnant, she was with a married guy and then she came back to Minnesota and never told him about me. So that was story number one Years later this was after I had my own children she said that that was not true, that it was a rape and that she could not give me a name.
Speaker 5:So I have been searching for that missing piece for years and years. What's interesting is recently, on Ancestry, I have had DNA hips, that I have a half sister on Ancestry and so we have different mothers but the same father, and it coincides with the region that my birth mother told me she was living in. I believe I have him narrowed down. I have contacted first cousins through Ancestry and I've tried to piece together through family trees who this guy is, and I believe I have him narrow down either him or a brother, I believe and so I'm in the process of recontacting some of those first and second cousins and trying to pinpoint what happened to this man. I know he died in 2008, but what his life was? If they knew him, one of them said he had met him when he was a little child, but he really didn't remember him, and so that search continues. And if his name is on the birth record, I will be so surprised I can't even imagine that that will happen.
Speaker 5:But I continue to search for that piece because that's 50% of my DNA and I just want to know. Again, it's not about making a connection. I know he's passed away, but it's about putting that piece of the puzzle in and just being able to say, hey, okay, I know this, I know this, I know this about who I am Absolutely. And my daughter, sophie, is very interested, not so much because of the biological stuff, because she said you know, we've always lived with that being a big question mark, but she's just interested because she's interested in genealogy and she said there's always this piece that I can't, I can't put in, and so you know again, it's an ongoing game. Every time I feel like I get a dead end with the DNA, I grieve, and so I continue to grieve for that. And I continue to grieve for what if he had known? What if she had told him? And he knew about me, right? So it just goes on and on, and on.
Speaker 2:It does Well. Good luck in finding resolution to that. Thank you, vera. You said that on the birth certificate you have for your daughters it does list the father's name. Do your daughters have any interest in their fathers?
Speaker 3:No, if it's any. If they ever talk about it, it's the way's the birth mom. I think it's because you know that's. I don't know if that's how they associate things, that they were in somebody's body, I don't know. But you know, one of the things I think is really important for adoptive parents to understand is that the kids, their development, is kind of all over the place and they do some strangest things, and that it's normal because they are. It's affected, the grief is affecting everything, you know. So, like the other day, I, you know, one of my daughters suddenly asked about something, about her birth book, you know, and I was like, hey, I've always had this out, you know, and that she came over and we looked at it. She's like I've never seen this in my life and she was like angry, kind of, about it.
Speaker 3:I'm like, and my husband's like, oh geez, honey, you know we have this around forever, like we tried for you know and so not take it personally that you know that anger, that kind of comes out. You know, and you know we took my husband took extensive notes of our trip to Russia. I mean a journal. He like typed it out for him, he gave it to him and he put something in there, like on purpose. That would be really embarrassing just to see if they read it. It was something about me and he's like I know they never read it because they would have jumped all over that.
Speaker 3:So, like you know, it's like you try, but again, it's like when they're ready and they will, they will ask when they ask it. And you know, pat, I'm just wondering right now about what that's, what's like for you to hear. I just I wonder, like sometimes when you hear birth parents and the struggles they have and the adoptive children, the struggles they have, if you, if you, if that adds like another layer of grief for you or something, because I feel bad, because I know that that wasn't something you planned on at all to to be pregnant or whatever, and if this is hard to hear how they struggle, like how a lot of them struggle, is I don't, I just am curious what that's like for you.
Speaker 4:Well, I have to think about that. You know, I guess I always felt I I hoped that the parents that my child got was going to, you know, treat him well and give him the life I wasn't going to be able to give him at the time and that there would be a mom and dad and, you know, everything would be okay. So everybody expects the adoptive family to be this perfect family and we find out that wasn't always the case. For the doctor, they didn't get the perfect family. But the bottom line is there is no perfect family, even with your biological kids. You know there is no perfect plan. So and you're, I think, as birth parents, probably you're always jealous, maybe, of the adoptive family because they got the privilege that you gave them and so. But it's real hard.
Speaker 4:I think international adoption for adoptive parents may be different than the domestic, because that's different. If it's a domestic, you know, more than likely the adoptive and the adoptive parents are in the state and that's a whole different thing. You know, getting your records, getting your adoption records, versus your international, that would that would be completely different, I would think, for the adoptee as well. But the bottom the same thing happens, though with the adoptee. They still grieve the loss of their first parent regardless. It's just something they want and they want to know that Maybe not everyone, but I think a lot of them do Interesting, interesting.
Speaker 2:Do any of you have a question you'd like to ask? One of the other points of the triad before I wrap up?
Speaker 5:I'd like to ask Pat she and I were in a discussion boarder of Zoom. Was that last week or two weeks ago, pat? I think two weeks ago I can't remember, I don't remember.
Speaker 5:So I was. I was invited to join the Zoom for Concern United Birth Parents and I did that and it was. It was just a wonderful, wonderful experience because I was able to listen to other birth parents talk about their experiences and I also got to hear from Joe Joe. What was his name? Joe, joe or Joe, okay.
Speaker 5:So I heard from Joe, who is also an adoptee and he has gone through search and reunion, and he said something that really resonated with me. We were I can't remember what we were talking about specifically, but he said something about that's the reason that I come here and he was talking about maybe that one of the one of the birth moms had said something like well, you know, we're happy to have you here or you belong here, or something like that. And the way he responded that he just felt like he was being mothered by these birth moms. It just it. I mean I cried afterwards. I just cried because it felt so healing for an adopted child to especially one who's had a bad reunion to hear that these are mothers who are here for us and they understand what we've gone through, because they've been through it as well, and that just really hit me hard and I wondered if Pat had any comments about that.
Speaker 4:We do have a support group once a month and we've meet for the most part in person. And the in person meetings are so wonderful because you actually get to hug each other in that type of thing and everybody goes around and just gives an update as to what is going on in their life and it can be about anything. And and we'd allow for the adoptees to come, because as birth parents we learn as much from the adoptee and if the adoptive parents are invited as well, we don't have as many to come. But if everybody in the triad is there, it just helps you understand your feelings and everything is going on in your life and it is all. Everybody's still grieving and that's kind of why we're there and but giving each other hope.
Speaker 4:The adoptees, the others, yeah so, and that's a group of friends that I have made because I started attending. We call it the cup group, concerned United Birth Parents, which is a national organization for birth parents, but it also includes the adoptees. But you know, you get there, everybody's walked your path, everybody understands because everybody has been there. We don't have to explain anything and everybody's always supported.
Speaker 2:It sounds wonderful. Sounds like a great opportunity to help you heal in your grief. Any other questions before I wrap up?
Speaker 3:I would say, pat, it would be interesting. You know you say birth adopted parents don't show up very much and I can see why. But I wonder if that would be something to grow in the triad, because I can totally see why, why we wouldn't want to go. Why do you think? I think because our struggle is just seems like it's kind of weird, like it's out here a little bit and I can see how that those fences need to be mended. I would love to get more involved in that, in a way to bring adopted parents more in, because I could, because we struggle alone, because so many people don't understand at all what we're going through, but this, these two pieces, could really help heal that. So yeah, an interesting.
Speaker 2:Vera? Do you Vera? Do you think any of the struggle is based on the fact that you are, since you have the adopted children with you and you see their struggles and their feelings and emotions and their hurt? Many times that it's based more on you not wanting to interfere.
Speaker 3:No, it's not that, it's no, it's, it's, you know, when they talk about how they get each other. I think that's really cool and it would be nice to bring that into the adoptive parent part, because we're all. We don't have any of that connection that the birth parent you know and the doctor you could so well, there are no.
Speaker 3:There are no support for adoptive parents oh, there are, but not with you guys. Oh, I see, I said yes, there are, but there's probably not enough. But what I'm saying, the try ad the try that we're bringing together right now. It would be cool to have more, because I was just so struck when pat said adoptive parents don't really show up, and I can see exactly why. And, and that's interesting, this try it. How can, how could we help heal that?
Speaker 4:I think it would help adoptive parents something to understand, probably more what every what the first parent is going through and maybe that would explain some of the issues with the children they're trying to raise exactly everyone is.
Speaker 3:So with adopt, it is such a um, you're out there trying to figure it out by yourselves instead of being involved in the try ad is what I think is going on, because adoptive parents feel alone.
Speaker 5:Right and veer and I have run a couple of workshops and one that I remember we we met with adolescent adoptees and I had done a ton of research on developmental issues and just how adolescents might be affected by adoption. And, uh, the parents there that came to the workshop were so hungry for that information and so grateful to have it that I I just would love to keep doing more of that, because I think anytime any member of the try ad gains information, it can help in just more understanding, more dialogue, and I think it's so important there, there may be a new concept being born here at this very moment I was really you've got yeah, you've got a complete try ad here.
Speaker 2:There's no reason that the three of you who also are geographically new, right, you could start something and it could be the start.
Speaker 4:I don't think adoptive parents sometimes understand the biological connection that the children's will always have to their birth era, even if they were adopted as children. The basic connection is never severed. Even though they may have been separated and put somebody else, that biological connection right is always there right, and wouldn't that be nice to bring the adoptive parent into that.
Speaker 4:That that try ad of that well, the purpose of open adoption is supposed to be helping some of that. You know, where the you have the open adoptions versus the closed adoptions, where the they're supposed to be open communication between the adoptive parent and the child who, so the child will always know who their birth parents is are you know from the very beginning. But that doesn't always work either. But it it's supposed to have made things easier for adoptive parents, but I'm not sure it's still pretty new well, it is, it is okay.
Speaker 2:Well, I fear the time is come, ladies, that I have to wrap up and, uh, tie a little knot around this and say who knows more to come another time. Is there a part three? We'll have to decide that, but for right now, to each of you, pat veratina, I want to say thanks for joining me today. This has been been a truly wonderful and rewarding discussion from my perspective, because I have insight that I probably would not ever have gained had this group gotten together. So thank you each of you for that. I'm going to wrap up and say to our listeners thank you also for tuning in today. I know we run a little longer than usual, but I think it was really, really important to hear.
Speaker 2:Everything that was said today serves as a perfect example that not all grief is related to the death of someone you love, but sometimes it's just related to a loss.
Speaker 2:In the case of adoption, it's loss, as tina put it, in so many layers, from so many perspectives. It certainly supports the concept that grief is totally unique for every single person, and even for that person that has multiple instances of grief. Every instance of a loss is different grief the more and more I dig into the topic of grief, the more and more I realize that we have sold ourselves short people, because grief is present in our daily lives. We may just not acknowledge it as such, and the quicker we learn to acknowledge it for what it is, the quicker we try to take care of ourselves and help ourselves get through these losses in a healthy way. Wow, we're going to do so much better. We're going to be so much healthier physically, emotionally and mentally. So, on that note, thanks everyone involved today, my guests, my listeners, everyone for supporting us, and please join again next time, as we all continue to live and grieve thank you so much for listening with us today.
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