The Grass Is Greener for Organic Dairy Producers Matt and Garrett Byler

In this episode, we talk with organic dairy producers Matt and Garrett Byler about transitioning to organic production, the family dynamic of working together, and making your neighbors wonder what you are doing. 

Transcript

Welcome And Farm Background

Speaker 0:11

Welcome to Bovine Banter with the Penn State Extension Dairy Team. My name is Ginger Fenton and I'm an educator based in Mercer County, Pennsylvania. I'm looking forward to a conversation today with dairy producers Matt and Garrett Byler. Thank you for talking to me today. Can you please tell me a little bit about your dairy farm and what role each of you have on the farm, like maybe what aspects you manage. Matt, would you like to go first?

Speaker 2 0:38

Sure. I am the dad, I guess you would say. But I grew up here on this farm, went through a partnership and transfer with my dad, and now Garrett and I are doing that. So one of the things that I appreciated with my dad was that he was not heavy-handed as far as giving up different responsibilities and decisions and that kind of thing. And, as part of that transition with my dad, we started grazing. And because that was different, I think that might have made it a little bit easier to back off some, but for him, but basically I had to prove that it worked and you know, make changes in steps and got to the point where you know we were fully cool grass, fully seasonal, where all our cows were fresh in the spring and that kind of thing. But that was after he had he had stepped out, but so now trying to model that a little bit, I let Garrett have at least an equal voice in making some bigger decisions. And, and he has some some gifts that I do not possess, but I mean I think we both work similar hours, and mine might be a little more outside working on things, and he's spending a little more time with the book work and and budgeting, those kind of things. He's he's a little more involved in that than I am. But at this point, I think we work about equal amounts. He might think differently, but that's how I I would see it.

Speaker 1 2:25

Yeah, I am a little more involved with the inside things inside. I do a lot of the record keeping and book work aspects with transitioning to organic here recently. There's a lot more of the record keeping to be done that I do most, if not all of. Yeah, we're both involved in the general day-to-day management of things. I would probably have a little more hands-on with like grazing rotations and things like that, but yeah, we're both we're both out there working most of the time. So that's the inside part is the is the different part of this.

Decision And Timeline For Organic

Speaker 3:10

I appreciate that overview and a little bit of an explanation with the family dynamic. I know sometimes those are tricky on dairy farm, so I certainly appreciate you sharing that. So the focus of this series of our podcast is on organic production. Can you tell me when you decided to transition to organic or if you have been since you started and what factors influenced that decision to go organic?

Speaker 1 3:36

So we started shipping organic milk April of 2025, April 1st of 2025. We've been pretty close to it for years. The grazing aspect of things made it that it wasn't a huge transition for us. We were fairly low input and felt like we were doing pretty well in the conventional. W e were at a grazing it was a few years before that, and heard someone speaking about if you're if you're creating a different product, if you're producing a different product, you should get paid for it, paid a premium for it. So we that kind of triggered some things for us, being that we were fairly close to it already. We know quite a few people in our area that are, and so the the idea to transition to it was not was not scary at that point. And so we began some of those transition things in 2023, I believe. 2024 is when we were officially transitioning the rest of the farm and the and the cows started their transition in April of 2024 so that we could ship in 2025.

Speaker 4:52

I think you you covered my next question I was going to ask you about the timeline. Can I back up just a minute? I'm curious what county you're located in in Pennsylvania, and maybe kind of a little bit more about herd size or farm size.

Speaker 2 5:07

We're Mifflin County, Big Valley is kind of the area we're in, some might recognize that. But we are 200 and some milking when everybody's milking. And yeah, we have support herd and probably total. I mean, we keep some bulls and some things like that, and some other random things, but like 400 animals all together. We are bi- seasonal, so we have a heavy spring calving period a little lighter fall period, generally March and September would be when we're calving the most.

Seasonal Calving And Nurse Cows

Speaker 5:58

And that leads right into the the next question I have. You've already talked about it a little bit about the the different production model that you follow from many of our other Pennsylvania dairy producers. And I just wondered if you could tell our listeners any other details about the model and why you decided to adopt it on your farm.

Speaker 1 6:17

So, yeah, the one of the bigger differences is that we do not have calves year-round. At one point we were fully spring seasonal, made the switch to split that up some with the organic production. They did not want us at our size all spring seasonal. We influenced trucking enough as is that having that all at once was not something they were interested in. So we calve maybe somewhere two-thirds to three-quarters of them in March and April, and the rest would calve in September. We like that a lot. Dad's always kind of told people it's kind of like corn silage, you don't just hammer it out and get it done and not just a little bit here and there. We like that we can focus on it really well and feel like we do a good job with calves, and even a better job with calves when we're having a whole bunch of them than when the last few are calving and we're ready to be done, and just one here and there. So that would be one of the bigger differences between us and most Pennsylvania farms. Another aspect would be that we raise all of our calves on nurse cows. We pair up a cow with two, most of them have two calves, some would have three. Those mostly would be high somatic cell cows or cows that we just don't really want to be dealing with daily in the parlor, but have some productive life left to them, don't want to just call them. So this 2026 would be the fourth year we've raised all of them that way, and we really like it. They go outside and they're moved around, they're rotated like the milking group would, but as their own separate group. The calving and then the grazing aspect, the cows outside all the time would be the biggest differences.

New Zealand Lessons And Genetics

Speaker 2 8:05

Give you a real quick thought on that. One most US dairy genetics are you know all around the Holstein breed, and for us, I mean they can walk three-quarters of a mile one way some days, and the bigger cow just don't hold up very well for that. So a long time ago we shifted to a smaller cow that that was a little more efficient and could take that. Any foot issues, there tends to be even, you know, we had I'd use some Holstein genetics, but it seemed like the first thing that would show up with those would have been issues or something like that. They just just weren't made for that. So we've we've shifted away from that. But otherwise, I mean, we're trying to be efficient and be productive and make a good living at it. And we've been able to do that.

Speaker 9:05

So where or to whom did you look for advice and planning resources as you as you decided on this production system? I'm specifically interested in some of the the changes that you made to adapt for those differences in climate and season in the US versus New Zealand.

Speaker 2 9:23

One of the big differences as far as climate for us compared to New Zealand would be that they're more of a Mediterranean climate, so they can grow grass, even if it's just a little bit, pretty much year-round. But a lot of it is, you know, cows outside, efficient workforce and building and pasture design. So Garrett and his wife got married and went to New Zealand for a year and both worked on dairy farms, and we were fortunate enough to go visit them. And you know, the farm he was on, there were 800 cows, with at the most, I think they had five people working in calving season, and they had pared back by the time you were there to three. So, and they're very, very much aware of keeping decent hours. So they would milk in at five in the morning and two in the afternoon. What they call their milking shed had 40 some cows on one side with a swing, they would hammer it out, and then cows are back outside and eating grass, and everybody gets their the rest of the day to do whatever they need to do or want to do. And we've we've adopted that a little bit with I mean, we milk at five and three, but it makes it nice both ends to not get up quite as early, but also back to doing other stuff in the evening if we want. Some of those things would be the things we adopted, some of the things that didn't work. I I would say the biggest difference is the climate. You just can't quite manage grass the same here as you do there. So that was that's part of that. But as far as other people and resources, Garrett's mother, my wife, Michelle, her uncle had had a farm in first Somerset County, and then now is in that farm is in Bedford County and run by his son. But they had a model similar to what we have where they would feed in the parlor. They were fully spring seasonal and still are still feeding that would have been a big one. The New Zealand experience for Garrett, especially, but also for me, I got I learned a few things. That helped us a lot. As far as resources, I mean there's lots of books and that kind of thing. I mean, I don't know. I think you find the find the guy that everybody thinks is thinks is kind of weird doing it wrong and see what they're doing and and go with that because they're probably doing well with it.

Speaker 12:10

So I was fortunate also to travel to New Zealand earlier this spring, which side note, I would highly recommend to anybody that can do that wonderful country to visit. I really enjoyed the trip.

Speaker 2 12:21

Where were you?

Speaker 12:22

Well, we were on both the North and South Island. We kind of went all over the place. That said, too. There were several things that really stood out. And I was with some co-workers who are also dairy educators. And what really struck us was the desire to be efficient and save energy. And I know you've already both mentioned it in our conversation so far. I noted like the cows were smaller, more compact, they wanted less water consumption. They pay based on milk solids, so higher components, and there were many crossbreds. So I'm curious if your genetics and your herd reflect a similar drive.

Speaker 1 13:01

Yes. So we've used a lot of genetics from New Zealand, especially in the last 10, 15 years. But as a whole, we just we avoid American genetics. We've used a lot of different things throughout the years, some different things out of Europe. Most recent would be Fleckvieh, kind of a milking Simmental. We've used some of those. And but the New Zealand type cow is a lot of what we have and have worked towards. And the last few years we've just been keeping herd bulls and brooding that way, mixing in some artificial, some New Zealand stuff here and there, but for the most part, running bulls.

Speaker 13:45

One of our stops also, sorry, and I didn't, we were not the podcast isn't about my trip to New Zealand, but it might be of interest to you. We visited the livestock improvement center as well, where most of the genetics are from. So yeah, we found Hugo on the wall and we we took our picture of his little tile on the wall and got to see a lot of the see the bulls. They took us around to the pastures, and yeah, it was it was a really like I said, very, very informative trip.

Speaker 2 14:10

But one of the neat things there is everybody's breeding at the same time for the most part. I mean, it's a little earlier in the you know, North Island, a little South Island, maybe, but how much fresh semen they use, I think that's that's pretty neat. You know, because they'll collect and then get it split up and send it out, and it it's never frozen. Kind of a neat system, how that works.

Equipment And Feeding Outside

Speaker 14:35

Yeah, they talked to us about that as well. And that was my thought, the labor involved with that and the demand at that that point in the season. So I'm also curious what the overhead or the equipment is, if you've had to specialize or if you do anything different than a typical producer, or because of the production system that you use.

Speaker 2 14:54

So there's a couple things. One one of the things that we had to do with Organic Valley, and in our area, they pick up three times a week. So we have two pickups that are five milkings and one that is four. And our tank that we did have was not big enough to hold five milkings. So we had to we had to put a bigger tank in, but we actually are very pleased with that because it's got a more modern wash system and it has a digital readout and screen that we can check things and keep track of things, and it's it's pretty nice, and it it tells us if you know something's wrong. Sometimes it's just fussing and just needs to wait 10 more minutes and then be fine, but it's okay. So that was one thing in general or overview. Neither of us really enjoys running equipment. We both dislike working on and fixing things. So I've never wanted a lot of equipment, and I wanted what I did have to work well, and Garrett's probably worse than I am with that. But we don't grow corn generally, no grain or silage, like corn silage production. For a number of years, we just bought all that and try to keep good hay equipment, you know, because we we grow as much hay as we can, and but we can graze all those acres as well. So it just depends a little bit on how dry it is or whatever, how much hay we're making, but we try to to have good hay equipment to try it, because especially being heavy grass, it's important that we have high quality hay and halage to feed them. So we try to take care of that, and then we do have some local organic guys that we can buy silage or last year. We bought some corn silage, and then we had somebody that had just put some forage sorghum out, and because it was dry here, we ended up everybody was screaming for hay. We ended up being very thankful that that forage sorghum became available because and we bought it out of the field, but that filled a pretty big part of the dry cow diet through the winter, so that worked out really well. But know that there's any other harvesting equipment. One of the main things we do with cows being outside is we will roll bales out, it's kind of a reverse baler where it'll pick the bale up and drop it on a table that moves is anchored on one side and then lifts it towards a set of beaters. If you want to look up hustler bale un roller, there's all sorts of stuff on YouTube about it. So that's what that looks like. We use that feed outside all the time. We don't, you know, we don't want bale rings for that many cows because they're gonna ugly spots and even dry cows and heifers. Those groups are big enough that they're not fighting over it. You can roll it out, you know, they can all have access to it. So that's worked out well for us. But yeah, I don't know that we have anything else specialized.

Mindset Money And Organic Myths

Speaker 18:05

That struck me in your answer to the my last question that you neither of you likes to operate equipment that well. That's not not something I typically hear from farmers. I've I've encountered some that really just enjoy operating equipment. I guess that leads me to the next question. Are there certain qualities or skills, maybe even personality traits that you think a farmer needs to have in order to make a system such as what you have work better?

Speaker 2 18:30

I've always believed that if you don't think something can work on your farm, you're you're probably gonna prove that it doesn't work. Like you have to you have to want to make it work. And it doesn't matter what it is, if if you if you think it's not gonna work, that's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. But you have to want to make it work. You have to think it'll work, you'll learn enough to make it work. And no matter what the production system is, figure it out because there's probably a way to make something work. But that helps. I don't know. I wouldn't say full of yourself, but be willing to to do whatever it takes to make something sometimes. You're handed a situation where you don't like it. That's farming in general. There's lots of that situation and beyond the personal side. I mean, major to have somebody working with you and coming alongside you to make these things work. So that's probably a big part of it. I've been blessed with multiple people. You know, my wife is one, and it's been another one for the last however long. So it's pretty nice.

Speaker 1 19:44

I would add just being willing to learn, being willing to try stuff, and if it doesn't work, well then it didn't work, and we change something the next time. And I think see it a lot in in farming in general, where most people are or there are people taking most of their or most of their decisions are being made by other people and they're just implementing it, whether it's the nutritionist, the crop scout, the what and yeah, most of the decisions that are made here, we've got to live with ourselves as it's stuff that we're deciding, you know, no one's telling us to do what we're doing for the most part. So I think just yeah, confidence in yourself and a willingness to mess up and learn from it goes a long way.

Speaker 2 20:25

And and balancing that with making sure if you see somebody doing something well that you want to do, don't be afraid to ask questions. You know, having confidence is one thing, but overconfidence that's no good. So yeah, ask questions and try to figure out what somebody else is doing to make the things work that maybe you're struggling to make work or you want to make work.

Speaker 20:50

Yeah, I think I heard a lot of great characteristics there. Curiosity, determination, a little bit of maybe a sense of adventure and not being afraid to be an original. So that's great.

Speaker 2 21:01

I sometimes get in trouble and I've passed this on to the next generation where I want you to think I'm nuts. That's no, I don't,. We'll do things close to the road just to make people question what in the world's going on there. So with cows or whatever. And it's kind of fun to put the nurse cow group with the calves out close to the road because you get a lot of rubber knickers checking that out because that just that doesn't look right, but it's also really cool.

Speaker 21:37

So yeah, I imagine it sparks questions too, you're out of discussion. I think you've already answered part of my next question. I was gonna ask about how you market your milk, and you did tell us that. But I'm also curious how you balance the financial side with the seasonal fluctuations.

Speaker 1 21:55

It's gotten a little bit easier to balance that side now that we Do not fully dry off in the winter. But one of the things we've started doing the last few years is we we purchase a lot of hay and there's an there's a pretty big discount from who we buy it from if we prepay that in like April. We're ahead by doing a short-term loan for like eight months for that. We typically do that and any fertilizer type stuff we put out. We'll do a short-term loan for eight months. start it would start paying that in May and done by December. And we come out ahead a little on the hay and it helps spread that cost out through the year.

Speaker 2 22:40

And something we kind of stumbled upon, but no, we we did a little math and realized that the interest we would pay was less than the discount we got for the hay. The hay dealer, if you will, cashes low for him at that point. So he likes having that. And we work with him to try to make sure we get stuff there when he wants it. So it also helps if calf prices are stupid high in March and you have, you know, 50 bull calves to sell or whatever.

Speaker 23:15

Yeah, that really helps too.

Speaker 2 23:16

That's a good strategy.

Speaker 23:18

Sure. And you're right, prices are very strong right now for calves. I appreciate your mentioning about grazing your nurse cows up by the road and some of the things that you're doing. Can you address if there are any common misconceptions that you've encountered about organic production? Anything, any myths you'd like to dispel or anything you'd like to talk about?

Speaker 1 23:39

So I think you often hear you're gonna lose production or everything's gonna turn to weeds or some negatives around it. And we've found that especially with the way we were operating already, our production really hasn't changed. And with the grazing, yeah, there's some weeds, but there are still tools to manage those if need be. Cows learn to eat some of those things, and just ignoring that it's there and forgetting about it for a little bit, you find that they kind of go away on their own. Most weeds are there to do something, fix something. And so it's not always easy to let them do that. Kind of want to go in there and get rid of them, but that is a I'd say it's a misconception that it's all going to turn to weeds or that you're gonna lose production.

Speaker 24:31

Yes, I'm hearing patience is another one of those personality traits that's helpful to have.

Weather Labor And Closing Thoughts

Speaker 2 24:37

The marketing for conventional remedies slash cures is definitely a little more. There's more of it than there is for some of the organic, whatever you want to call them, fixes. But they are out there and actually work pretty well, and maybe in a lot of cases they work better.

Speaker 25:01

What have you found is your biggest challenge with your production system?

Speaker 2 25:05

Weather and we are working with cows. Weather is probably the biggest, mean with cows being outside all the time. Heat. Heat's probably the biggest of those issues. And you know, rain in November, mud, so heat, mud, those things are pretty big challenges. Otherwise, I mean, yeah, we're working with cows. I don't want to say we're working with a lot of women, but I mean I don't want to get in trouble, so say that. Kidding. Okay, but, weather, weather's a big one. We've moved past some of the profit issues, or by being organic, the some of those financial challenges have been mitigated somewhat. So I think there's that.

Speaker 1 26:10

Weather would definitely be the thing that we can't control and that impacts us more than a typical farm or typical dairy with cows inside. Even things like stretches of cloudy weather and there's no sugar in the in the grass, we'll see production drop some or the cows get grumpy, or yeah, those those things show up a little bit more.

Speaker 2 26:37

A lot of a lot of farms struggle with labor, having enough good people. We've been blessed with enough good people. And if we had to, the two of us can do pretty much everything, but it's nice to have we have one full-time employee and some part-time. Both of those are kind of looking at probably transitioning away from working here. One will graduate from high school, and the other one has been here since she graduated from high school for two years, and looking at trying to get some other experiences under a belt. So, but for the most part, having having that simple system and both of us being being willing to work as much as we need to to get stuff done or enough stuff done, that's that's helped. But that is that is something we're kind of looking at right now, you know, that full-time employee transitioning out. What are we replacing her with? So that's not been a biggest challenge, but it's it's something we're looking at that could be.

Speaker 27:49

And then my final question is just give you both the opportunity. If either of you have any final thoughts or words of wisdom you'd like to share with our listeners.

Speaker 2 27:59

We're both shrugging. Well, no, I can go on for a while if you really wanted to. So, you know, we're very blessed to to live where we do, to do what we do. I find working outside to be superior, you know, depending on weather, to working inside. So this this is it's it's an honor and a privilege to steward land, cattle, people. This is a generational farm, and my parents still live on the farm half the year, the other half the year they're in Florida. You can guess which half is my favorite part of the year, but beside the point. Garrett has children here. I grew up here. My mother actually was born in the house I live in, so it's it's pretty neat to be able to do that. And working side by side with you know, the son and father relationship doesn't always work out. So blessed to have that opportunity and for it to be going well. Both of our wives are able to not work off the farm. That's that's pretty nice. Yeah, mostly just find things, you know, not every day is great, but find things that you enjoy in the day and try to think a little bit more about that than the stuff you're not enjoying. And probably going to get better eventually.

Speaker 29:32

So well, I want to thank you both. Thank you, Matt and Garrett, for taking the time to talk with me today. I appreciate the things that you shared just about your family dynamic and the beyond dairy production and some of the other aspects of it. So thank you very much for that. I'd also like to thank all of our listeners and remind you don't forget to tune in next Tuesday as our series on organic dairy production continues.