On this episode of SEO Insider, Seth is joined by Jason Brown, the founder of Review Fraud. Jason discusses the basics of his business and the ways he gives SEO guidance, common misconceptions about SEO, and all about how fake reviews and negative review attacks can impact business. The two also speak on how to get Google to take down a review, GMB local spam, and how incentivizing reviews is against FTC guidelines and can get a listing taken down. They discuss how reviews can be subjective, the importance of asking for reviews in industries where it is allowed, and how asking for photos to be uploaded on review sites can lead to more reviews.
On this episode of SEO Insider, Seth is joined by Jason Brown, the founder of Review Fraud. Jason discusses the basics of his business and the ways he gives SEO guidance, common misconceptions about SEO, and all about how fake reviews and negative review attacks can impact business. The two also speak on how to get Google to take down a review, GMB local spam, and how incentivizing reviews is against FTC guidelines and can get a listing taken down. They discuss how reviews can be subjective, the importance of asking for reviews in industries where it is allowed, and how asking for photos to be uploaded on review sites can lead to more reviews.
BluShark Digital
Welcome to the SEO insider with your host, Seth Price founder of BluShark taking you inside the world of legal marketing and all things digital.
Seth Price
Welcome, everybody. We are thrilled to have Jason Brown here, the founder of review fraud. Welcome, Jason.
Jason Brown
Hey, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Seth Price
You know, you're on the short list of people that, you know, sort of are part of this this sort of, um I I would say the almost translators for us, us civilians, and the inner workings of Google Local. Um talk to me a little bit about sort of the world that you travel in, and how you know, how you've um helped work with, you know, I'm sure a whole variety of different um people to try to navigate what has become um extremely choppy waters.
Jason Brown
Yeah, so, you know, I guess I, you know, I just kind of, you know, I started, you know, with review, fraud, you know, going after, you know, fake, you know, positive reviews, and then it's kind of transcended into um businesses coming out, coming, you know, to me, or, you know, consumers, saying, you know, hey, look, I'm having this issue with this company, and we don't know what to do. And because of, you know, what I, you know, what I what I have learned from doing this and becoming, you know, a Google My Business product expert, I'm able to give a lot more guidance than what is out there. Because, you know, as we know, um SEO is live in an echo chamber. And so once some incorrect, improper information gets out there, um people just run with it, and it just spreads like wildfire. And so I'm actually able to kind of come in and help cut the crap and input through, you know, the web of lies and sit there and say, Okay, this is what really, truly needs to happen, here's your chances of being able to get this review removed. If it can't, then here's what the next steps are in, you know, and and just trying to, you know, just be there, you know, as a general, you know, helper, you know, on either my website or on the um community forum for Google
Seth Price
To talk to me, what are some of those misconceptions that are out there that we know the the world sort of assumes are true, but you know, are not?
Jason Brown
Yes, that you can't get a one star review removed from Google and the Google will not take action? That's half true. Um yes, if somebody were to just leave, you know, you know, just a one star review on your listing, then yes, chances are, Google's not going to take that review down. However, if that profile is engaging in abusive tactics, or your a business that's getting attacked, because you went viral, and you've got a whole bunch of one star reviews, then yes, Google will take down that review. The other misconceptions that we deal with is, um Google won't remove any reviews. And so all you need to do just is just get a bunch more reviews and just bury that and problem solved. And, you know, and that doesn't, and that doesn't, that doesn't, you know, truly work because you're not really addressing the issue. And I've I've seen in some of the Facebook groups that I was a member of that I finally removed myself from that, you know, businesses that were legitimately getting attacked, you know, it was, you know, a consumer that was upset, and by buying fake negative reviews, but the echo chamber was nothing you can do, forget about it, just get more reviews. And I'm like, no, no, no, there's actually something that can be done. If you, you know, if you come to the Google forum, and I always wish everybody the Google forum, because then I can interact with them. And then when need be, I can ask Google to, you know, to investigate the issue properly.
Seth Price
Gotcha. But look, and that's been sort of, like there's so many different layers. This is sort of, I'll take start at the top, we're now seeing I'm in the legal space. And that's where I spend a lot of my time where um lawyers have had enough, and they're actually, you know, suing to get the names of these reviewers. A great case going on in Michigan in Detroit right now, in the Detroit area, where one of my favorite plenty of shops had had negative reviews coming in, they were able to show this was actually coming from a competitor um. You know, I have you started to see people sort of getting fed up with the idea that people can hand hide out behind a cloak and and sort of try to harm their competitors. Is that something you're seeing across the border? Are these still isolated incidents where people are sort of fed up and I'm going to actually take legal action against people?
Jason Brown
Well, are people fed up? Yes. Um are people actually doing what needs to be done to take legal action? No. So right now, you know, there's there's there's several cases going on in in LA Orange County, southern California, where, you know, a a lawyer who has fake listings, fake positive reviews, he actually went and bought a bunch of negative reviews against its competitors who had just gotten into the LSA ads, right. So he knew that if he started attacking their listings It was gonna diminish the results in LSA, and he was able to come in and make a killing. We're also seeing review negative review attacks in the, in the air conditioning age back heating, heating industry to also in LA Orange County, I'm dealing with a negative review attack where 16 pest control companies up in Portland area are all getting attacked by the same competitor, and we know who it is. But the problem is, is you have to foot the bill, right. And so when you're paying when you have to hire a lawyer
Seth Price
You know, when to show when you're a lawyer, there's less, you know, there's less than your cost to yourself or less. But that's why you know, it's funny because to a certain extent, I I am that person, right? I run a law firm, we don't for us, we can't have 3.5 or four, we want our lawyers to be 4.9. And fives, it's like mean, we give great service to the mousetrap is good. So there is a lot of just hey, let's keep the positive ones going. Because, you know, a, there's no certainty that you'll get the negative ones removed um. But talk to me about some of the the things to look out for, you know, there are a lot of groups out there, not you, meaning I look at you as one of those guys that when you speak we listen. But there are a number of different review removal services, some in the let's call it by hand category, and some in the AI category. Um and I know you weren't you you've had you know, they're some of these people are the ones that will feed things to you when they see stuff and say, Hey, this is this is Jason worthy. Um what do you what can you speak to as far as consumers looking at some of these groups that do this in mass? Where it's not? Here's one, but here are my reviews? What can you do?
Jason Brown
Yes, sure. So um I think the big warning sign, and it goes with everything in SEO, there's no guarantees. And so if you are dealing with a company that's going to guarantee something, then those are the chances those, that's where you need to run um these, these review removal services, they actually have to have access to your Google My Business listing. So if they don't have access to your Google My Business listing, and you're not granting it to them, then whatever they're doing to report those reviews, which is Parliament pretty much just flagging it on on Google. That's how Google cares about Google wants those, in order for Google to take a look at a review, you have to flag it in your dashboard. So if you're paying some company, if you haven't flagged it in your own dashboard, they're not going to do anything. And there's quite a there's quite a few companies out there where that's what they do. You know, and I don't want to, you know, call call them out. I mean, some of them are looks more legit. But again, you have to make sure that, you know, you flagged it in your dashboard, and they know what to do. And we've seen the thing where like there was that lawyer that or that review, review mobile company where they were falsifying judge orders.
Seth Price
Yeah, missed that one.
Jason Brown
Oh, you gotta look that one up. But yeah, they basically they had a a judgment in their favor. And they just took that judgment. And they, they, you know, they altered it, to use it to circumvent
Seth Price
it's so much easier than having to go and get multiple judgments. But but
Jason Brown
Exactly. Until they got busted. And, and I think, yeah there was a criminal case with it.
Seth Price
Oh, God. You know, something I've talked about a lot of our guests joy and other of your colleagues part of his inner group. And I always ask them the same question like, on the let's get stopped with reviews for saying we're just talking about GMB spam. Like, why? Why can't they do anything the exact match, I get why that's powerful, but it's nonsensical. Right, people are now changing their business legitimately to comport with Google's ridiculous local algorithm. They, you know, I've seen some areas where it's gotten better, but over the years, it has taken way too long. And I'm not sure it's there, it seems to be a little bit better. As far as I don't know, whether it's Russians or whoever, who are able to come in, in mass. And it's like, you know, from a cost benefit point of view as an end user, you know, whether you're doing yourself or using consultant. It's just like the ocean it keeps on coming with this nonsense. What what's your take? Why? Why can't we see, Google has figured out on organic, how to get rid of spam to a great degree, their stuff that's clearly spam out there. And it takes so much effort, they're not just like, oh, yeah, that's spam. It's gone. It's multiple asked to sort of say, hey, what, what's your take? Why won't they take this spam issue? Seriously?
Jason Brown
Um I think they've, I think they've kind of thrown their hands up, you know, and and said, you know, what, what can we do, you know, no matter what, no matter what we do, no matter what, how we track, we we clamp down, these people come and find another way to abuse the system. You know, you know, we've all you know, have railed against Google, you know, from Mike Blumenthal to Joy Hawkins Ben Fisher, Tom Waddington, you know...
Seth Price
Pretty much by the guests who have discussed this with with us
Jason Brown
You know, and we, you know, and we, you know, we've, you know, we've raised that issue, you know, so you know..
Seth Price
You say that, but look, they're pretty freakin smart. And when you see stuff that's an exact match brand new, you know, GMB with one with one to two reviews, like, and you're getting the data points that it's not real, it wouldn't take a lot. I mean, literally, one person with common sense could sit there in a particular industry and and curtail much of this. Now I get that when I talk to Blumenthal is like legal is 1/10 of 1% of their greater universe, but they seem to find the time and resources when it comes to monetizing it through their LSAS or otherwise, where you would think they'd say, okay, in these areas where it's super high value, we're making our money, we're going to spend a little bit of money, making sure that the pastures are green, given that we're dealing with, I mean, they're gonna have antitrust issues coming down the pike, it'd be nice if they just kept the sandbox at least clean enough so that we're able to not have to deal with this nonsense. It's hard enough, you know, we're about to shift back to what you're talking about, which is the, you know, the full frontal attack that you may have with direct competitors. But this is sort of spam listings that for quite a while, especially for some term, I'll call it take take money terms, one under the money term, we're just seeing so much in there that, you know, people are like, Okay, well, I can't I don't want to pay for the high value injury term, but I'm gonna go for like nursing home or Workers Conference, and they just, you know, it is so saturated with spam that, um you know, I can't I'm sitting here saying, No, I won't buy that they've thrown their hands up. It's almost like they're just not going to put any meaningful resources towards cleaning it up.
Jason Brown
Yeah, yes. And I agree. I mean, how many times have we seen expose about the rehab industry? Spam? You know, we just had an article last July by the bird, sorry, by The Register, talking about and they outed one of the companies behind it. Right? Again, you know, Google comes in, they do this massive cleanup. Everything's gone. You go back and you've you find it again. I mean, I found one of the most ridiculous named rehab listings. And it was and I kid you not Fuji Hibachi Drug Rehab. You know, and so they're doing it again, we had the Wall Street Journal article, where we talked about the where they talked about the the um spam and legal that was just, you know, overtake..
Seth Price
And and normally, that's my rule, you make the Wall Street Journal, Washington Posts or New York Times, you know, eyeglasses or whatever. Once you do that, who was it? Okay, I get it, it's time for us to do something. This is like the first time in history where like, they you got the article, and they still don't care?
Jason Brown
Well, they do they do they do they do they? Yes. Well, I think Wall Street Journal article was that shot across the nose that like really woke them up. But I mean, again, you know, you know, the the the the regional accident attorney spam is still is still populating in California. Um you know, and kind of...
Seth Price
I mean, it always has in some form or fashion, it's just is this is, you know, locals where it is right now.
Jason Brown
Yeah. And, yeah, and so it's yeah, it's just, it's, you know, it's these people that, you know, go to all these, you know, Blackhat, you know, local SEO conferences that are all just sharing ideas back and forth. And, you know, I think you he hit the nail on the head. I mean, one of the groups is, you know, is from Russia, you know, and so, you know, and they're, you know, and they're, you know, and they're making, they're making a killing off of it, and until they can't make money, they can't make money or they get, you know, you know, locked up or, you know, the government comes after them or Google, you know, it's never, it's never going to end it's just gonna, it's just gonna be playing Whack a Mole with these with these people.
Seth Price
Yeah, and look in some of it's one off, you know, just just my own my own little micro world, a family law lawyer within our firm with our own law firm. She got a three star review with no comments this week. Okay, we looked at her, you know, her nemesis, and that same person gave a five star review. On the same day that reviewing profile gave 40 reviews with stars and no comments. Like they're, you would give every other place the algorithm, like we always tell our clients and I preach from stage, hey, just be natural, no spikes, you know, don't you know, if you if you have a number of offices around the state, don't get the same person to review all your offices like just just know they want to review a second one, nobody's going to it's not going to come crashing down on you if it's not a cut and paste job, but like, Just be natural. And the the question is, you know, like anything else, Google has a, they can turn a sensitivity towards these these things. And it just the going back to reviews for a moment. What do you do short? Is there is there a lay person response to something where you see something out of the ordinary, whether it be you know, somebody spiking reviews one day, I'll give you an Other examples, we're gonna flip back to you who was, you know, we had a competitor who had reviews saying that I've never used it. You know, the reviews were I've never used this person before. But I was at a state fair and I wanted the Frisbee. So I left a review, so I can give it like, there's nonsense. It's infrequent writing, and it doesn't matter. Like, how do you? How do you bring this together?
Jason Brown
Yes. Okay. So yeah, so there's quite a few times where I'll actually find evidence on social media of that state fair raffle. And, you know, and, and thank you so very much when you guys post the photos of your of your raffles, on on social media, um you know, Facebook, or Instagram, because I find it, you know, or the, you know, leave us a Google review. And you'll enter a drawing to get, you know, two tickets to the ballgame. Again, thank you very much for posting that. Because I'm able to, I I can use that to basically get all the reviews taken out. And I actually had actually had a client that got one of those, those nasty emails from Google advising them that they got caught in, you know, manufacturing reviews, and that they needed to knock it off, and it made its way to corporate and so corporate came down and lay the smackdown on this business owner, but, you know, isn't like, you know, that's, that's what is gonna end up happening, you get caught with that. And Google can actually suspend the listing and not allow it to show up, or they can actually turn off the ability for businesses to get reviews, which is kind of a nice thing, too.
Seth Price
So do you think it's worth going back? Do you think if given where we are today, if you saw this thing from two years ago, and you didn't get any love when you attempted it, then do you think the visibility towards fake reviews is higher now? Where if those if those reviews are still there, the evidence is still sitting there in the review? Do you think that that it's worth a second shot at this point, that there is a greater sensitivity within Google towards this now?
Jason Brown
Oh, well, always whenever you can have that type of evidence where you can actually show Google so you know, I've seen it where, you know, um the office had a raffle when they win a Yeti cooler, leave us a review. And from the photos, they uploaded into GMB, I was actually able to use that that date. And Google went in and wiped out all the reviews going back to that date. So it's the same as like review gating. So, you know, once Google knows that you've been review gating, or you've been incentivizing for reviews, they come and they wipe out all those reviews going back to that date.
Seth Price
What do you think about the charitable donation? And I, you know, I'm seeing that now there's a company out there as a review platform, that that is they're posted secret sauce? Um meaning meaning I mean, that's, that's what they say they say, we're doing a donation per, I feel like if you're a Seinfeld fan towards the human fund, you know um the...
Jason Brown
The tree, the tree, is a tree planter company.
Seth Price
I think so yeah. I'm using that as an example, I'm just but what is your take? Because look, charity is one of those things that I'd like to do saying, I can't pay somebody, but we're doing a charity. Where's where's charity fall on that line?
Jason Brown
Yeah, that's, again, it's a violation of the FTC FTC guidelines, because um the reviewer is somehow being incentivized to leave that review. So they're not leaving that review, just because they want because they know that they're gonna get something or somebody else is going to get something
Seth Price
So that's the question. So as it gets, I'm just look, I'm throwing this out there and say, Are there any, are there any legitimate ways to do that, saying that we're supporting breast cancer if we get to 100 reviews? So it's not any one? Are there any sort of places you think that you can use that positively? Or is that all that stuff over the line?
Jason Brown
That's all that's all over the line. I mean, if you want to, you can do it with getting followers, you know, on your on your social media accounts. You can't do it for reviews. That's a complete, that's a complete no no. And so if violates FTC guidelines, it violates every review platforms, Terms of Service, and they will go in and remove that if they if you get caught doing any of that stuff.
Seth Price
Gotcha. So I have a great my favorite story, which I've shared before, was I was in Vegas for a guys weekend and all my buddies left leaving me and one friend. So we were there one night by ourselves. We sort of burned out on Vegas, we wanted some great Korean barbecue. So I Yelp it, and we find a place with great reviews, hundreds and hundreds of reviews. Five, you know, very, very high star rating. When we go and we had like a really pleasant meal. It was cheap. It was average Korean barbecue. I can't say it was great. It was fine. But it wasn't like this is the five star Mecca that I was like So what's going on here at that desert time a little sign on the table that says if you review us on Facebook, you're on Yelp there's a free review is a free free dessert. And I love free dessert which I wouldn't say it has to be five star it just said and it was one of those like life moments where you see that like it is you know you now see okay, this It was a objectively, let's say, a three and a half to four star experience. And yet they were they were able to move the needle. And I thought it was it was it was, it was one of those moments where like, okay, it's not in writing you can't like unless you went and took a picture of it, you're gonna have evidence of this, but there was clearly a cause and effect of what was going on.
Jason Brown
Yeah, I I see that a lot with with with restaurants. And yeah, they put that little that little um table tent on the table. But yeah, I mean, look, just asking for a Yelp review violates Yelp's of service. So they will come in, and they will slap a consumer alert warning on there. You can't run paid ads for a full year when you get that Yelp slap.
Seth Price
So that actually might be a little tongue in cheek, but that might actually help your ROI for your business. But we'll put that aside. Sorry.
Jason Brown
Yeah I mean, yes, yes. It probably it probably.
Seth Price
Just, I'm just having fun at Yelp's expense.
Jason Brown
Nice. I got that at their expense. But, um, but No, in all honesty, like, if that business got caught, you know, they would have a consumer alert warning on their listing for 90 days. And I've seen and I've seen Yelp, you know, refuse to take it down even longer. In the end, leave it up there for you know, almost a year until you finally complaint say, Hey, can we get this taken down? But, you know, but like, you know, so so yeah, and I've seen it, I saw a business where somebody actually uploaded that photo to Yelp. And so I pointed out the Yelp and like, look, here's the photo right here, where they're actually giving away a free cookie, you know, for leaving for leaving a review. And then yeah, Yelp comes in, they wipe out all the reviews, and the owner gets all upset. But you know, but you had you had a mediocre experience, right? It wasn't a great experience.
Seth Price
But it was, it was it was perfectly fine. It was not negative. It was a value, it was not bad. And look, that's something about Yelp, but my own personal thing, which is with Yelp, or Google, I feel like there's an unspoken piece about the review platforms as to whether or not price is a factor in the number of stars. So if you go to Chipotle, and it's perfect, and it's hot, and you got an entire meal that satiate you for six bucks, is that five stars, versus you go to a, you know, a a fancy place in Vegas, and is $90 ahead and like, the waiter didn't fill your water fast enough, is there a different expectation based on price is what what I'm and so there's no no guidelines for the consumers as to what makes for five stars. And that is one of those sort of interesting pieces. And I'll give you a story. I was in New York for an anniversary dinner. And um the concierge at our hotel recommended a restaurant. And it was it was a high end Chinese place. And I almost didn't go because it had 3.5 stars. And I went there, it was freaking amazing. It was one of the best meals I've ever had. And it was a slow night the GM came over and sat with us for a little bit. And I was like what, what's the deal? And he's like, the issue is at higher price points. People come they get resentful that it's not an inexpensive place. They want to be where the celebrities are. JLo had been there the night before. And it was a hot spot. And so that there is no sort of, again, we're going off topic a little bit. But when it comes, that's one of those interesting subjective pieces about reviews in general.
Jason Brown
Yeah, that's yeah, definitely. And McDonald's has, you know, some of the worst ratings ever. But you know, they're, you know, they're serving up, you know, $1 ,2.99, you know, hamburger, you know, right, there's...
Seth Price
No if you if you have 2.99 Is there another place that you can get a meal on the planet right now? And the answer is probably not at a brick and mortar establishment. So, you know, it's, it is all relative. Um but you know, and that is something I'll give you taking, you know, a distant cousin of mine has a medical practice. And and I looked at it and his reviews were awful, and he just terrible. And that's one of those things outside of Yelp. You know, there's this wasn't Yelp, this was Google, like, there does need to be some sort of a protocol. First thing is make sure you have a good mousetrap. Make sure your product you're offering is great. This was a high volume practice with lots of nurse practitioners mixed in. And there may be real issues, the first thing you say is, hey, do I have an issue with my business? The second is, you know, if you are a Jiffy Lube, and there are 1000 people coming through a day, if only the angry people leave your review, you're not in very good shape. Whereas everybody else paid their money, got the cheapest oil change on the planet and left, you know, how if if you don't have some sort of mechanism to sort of say, Hey, if you're happy, please do this. It it there's got to be some sort of balance between gatewaying and also not only allowing the hateful people to leave reviews if you're a business I would think
Jason Brown
Right and and it that and that's just it you have to ask for reviews like it, you're not going to get it if you don't ask, you know, when I saw somebody, you know, post on Twitter, you know, just last few hours, you know, they said, you know, I'm very uncomfortable asking for testimonials when I do a great job for my customers. And it's like, we got to get past that, you know, it's too difficult to ask for reviews, like we have to we have to do as long as we are in an industry where we can do it like you can't do it in some verticals, right. So you can't do it in medical because of HIPAA. But if if you if you can, can do that, you know, I consult for a company every time that they you know, they help a business out, they sent out an email and said, Hey, congratulations, by the way, would you mind leaving us a review? It's built into that email and, and reviews keep coming in. You know, we're not going to get you know, all five star reviews, you know, we you know, because you can't, you can't please everybody, but we know that we can get enough of the positive ones to outweigh that one negative. But we asked, so you have to build that that yet.
Seth Price
What are some of the best techniques? You've seen people at scale using to legally um navigate this, but provide a a decent steady stream of reviews?
Jason Brown
Yes, I mean, there's quite a few um review solicitation services. So a company that I used to work for, they actually built out their own. So they would, you know, send a text message as soon as you left one of one of their clients locations. And so they would ask you, they would ask you if it's okay to send a text message, do you have to click Yes to opt in they they send you a a request to leave a review?
Seth Price
Right so the review platforms have been some one of which is now Google owned, you know, so? But is there anything as far as you know, obviously, giving great service, but are there any things where you said? Oh, that's really innovative, anything where you sort of said, you know, again, platforms are great uploading it, but is there anything, any messaging, anything that you're like, I really liked the way this company has been doing it, they've shown great results and cool case studies.
Jason Brown
I haven't looked at any any any case studies, I think I think the the best thing to do is once you realize that somebody's having a positive experience. That's the point in time where you're already having that one on one communication, you asked him to go ahead and leave feedback. Um I think it's super easy for restaurants, because people are constantly you know, Instagramming their dinner. Well, you just asked them if they'll post that, that photo on Google and Yelp because That's that's okay, it asked him to leave that photo on Yelp. And then they're, they're prompted to leave to leave that review. Especially with, especially with the hotel space, like the hotels are, you know, always, you know, so worried and they're trying to figure you know, figure out how to navigate between, you know, sending text messages and emails and follow ups and sometimes it just gets it gets so much but, you know, if there's a way that you can, you know, ask them to, you know, upload photos of their vacation, you know, and their stay at your property. Now you're going to start getting an increase of of user generated content with those photos and then get that
Seth Price
An may maybe that's the workaround you're asking not for reviews but for photos please upload photos to this you know, I don't know what the you really want to have your criminal defense lawyers office but you know, but the idea being that like that's maybe that's the legal you know, language difference you're not asking for reviews. You're asking for photos.
Jason Brown
Exactly. Yeah. And and and yeah, probably won't work with with you know, defense attorneys.
Seth Price
I'm i'm Just being tongue in cheek but it would brilliant for freaking restaurants. Like please upload this for Wonder next question. I'm not in the restaurant space, but take this to my restaurant buddies. What about upload this to Yelp or Google for a chance to win one person will be randomly selected? Oh, I've tried the language we..
Jason Brown
Got to the language. So you know, I I don't know if I don't I don't know.
Seth Price
But like I you know, I think you're on the right side of it because you're not asking for a review. You're asking for placement. I l love these things. This is what this is. These are things that you know, 3 million kids in the other room but you know homeschooling so this is this what I spend my day thinking about how do you move the needle?
Jason Brown
That I'll run I'll run that by um Mike Blumenthal because he's he's well versed in this and see what he says
Seth Price
He would say as long as it's for a jewelry store in upstate New York you're fine but otherwise I think it might be a problem. We got to keep that out.
Jason Brown
I wonder which I wonder which jewelry shop that could be the I love I love Mike...
Seth Price
I think I was I've dubious distinction I believe I was client number one I know is the first private client for Joy as well I believe for Mike way back in the day. And and so you know big fans of both of them in the the insights, like all you want to do is know where the line is and what you're what what you can do what it can't do. Let's sort of wrap this up coming back to our um, the reviews, um once you do see these patterns, you know, sort of bring bring us home, you know, you see stuff, you know, look part I have, personally, I preach what a bad review comes in. Because in our in the legal world, they they hurt their personal that I asked people to take a 24 hour cool off no responding to them no nothing because we still have a bar license that's at stake. You know, and you don't want to eff with that. Right? You respond, you think you're just responding to it, even though they broken privilege, you may not be allowed to. So you have that you have that whole issue. But what are some of the things that you see, when you do have these nonsensical reviews that come in, they come in from time to time, and you do the sort of you go through the, you know, through, you know, the the correct protocols? And that doesn't do it? Where do you where do you tell people to go then?
Jason Brown
Yes, okay. So you know, so again, first thing to do is flag it, then come to the Google My Business community forum, you know, hopefully, you know, you get a good product expert, you know, like myself Joy, and you know, that that weighs in on it, you know, and you don't get somebody that's just, you know, being that that echo chamber telling you, there's nothing you can do, I always put together like a really nice package where, you know, I'll put together an Excel document, and show correlation between the profiles and how they're fake, and you know, how they're purchased or, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever evidence I, you know, I come across them, I find, I put that together for Google. And then I go on, I can contact, you know, and I work with Google. And when that doesn't work, then I have to go into my bag of tricks and reach out to my friends in the media, you know, a news reporters and get them to talk about the story. And then all of a sudden, Google's like, Yeah, yeah you're right...
Seth Price
But that takes real resources to get there. And that's the issue, like, that's not going to be for the faint of heart, that's going to be for somebody in a business that has the resources to do it. And that's, and that's what it looks like, that's no different than litigation, people come to me all the time, I want to sue somebody, I'm like, you know, when, when the amount in jeopardy is less than like, $40,000. It's rare that you could use small claims court for smaller stuff. But there's, there's $1 figure where it's just you can't you'll spend more on litigation than you will on the the amount in jeopardy, and you have to just sort of like settle, split the difference and move on. Because otherwise, you know, you're just making the lawyers money, but not really getting yourself anything better, economically
Jason Brown
Well then, well then that's why and that's why working with my contacts in, you know, various news stations doesn't cost any any money. You know, I just I pitched them the story I show them, you know
Seth Price
When they're really obnoxious, it makes you look good, because you're giving them a great story.
Jason Brown
Right, and I'm getting I'm getting a great story, the business that's been attacked is able to get that that PR and so now all of a sudden, they're getting their name out there in front of a whole lot larger audience that they normally wouldn't have been able to get in front of. And so it's a win win, you get that you get that public that that PR Google gets, you know, gets slapped across the face, and then they take action, and they end up removing those reviews, because all of a sudden, once the media gets involved in they're like, okay, this was a bigger issue, like we saw with the Wall Street Journal article. I mean, you wish I mean, York was with a bunch of, you know, lawyers, and we saw a bunch of lawyer listings, even some legit ones get suspended in in June 2019. Because of you know, the virtual or date, four days prior to that Wall Street Journal article coming out, all of a sudden, there was like this big, massive cleanup. And, you know, we know Google got a little more egregious with it, and, and super sensitive, but that's kind of, you know, what ends up meaning to happen is, you know, you have to make, you have to make noise, a little bit of noise, just to get Google's attention some days.
Seth Price
Um you know, other things that we sort of see common questions. The, you know, right now, we've always, you know, virtual offices, right, this has been a thing, we had the algorithm clean up of a a bunch. What do you know, right now, what is real and what's virtual, like, again, in the northern in the Northeast cities, people aren't going to work anyway. So it's this, like bizarre netherworld where it can't be virtual at the same time. And again, I'm not giving them flack for it, it's like you, they're trying to clean up spam. And I applaud that. But there's this bizarre world about what's real and what's not. And coming out of COVID, there's a good chance that much more of the world is going to be virtual at the idea of a brick and mortar facility will not be needed in many areas to people realize, oh, wow, I don't need that. What do you think that there'll be any sort of adjustment in that world?
Jason Brown
I don't think there's going to be an adjustment on Google's end. So right now, you know, right now, it's, I can't really get into specifics of how Google's viewing viewing it right now. But things have definitely changed because, you know, um businesses have had to shut down they
Seth Price
They they had to take a pause if they were taking people off because you know, if nobody's going to your office and yet you got we could give up your lease. The idea of Regis might be the right business move for you know, I would just wish there was a reason where if you're under X number of offices, they would allow something like that. Because it may be that you don't want it. However, if it's your 17th office, that's when they see it as abusive.
Jason Brown
Yeah, it's it. I don't think I don't think Google weighs it that way. Well, yeah.
Seth Price
But I don't know in my world.
Jason Brown
But I but I can tell you that if you are creating, you know, you have 15 listings, they're all at virtual offices...
Seth Price
And and that's not going to work
Jason Brown
Right and you, but you in your in your keyword stuffing on them, then that's when you're going to get an account level suspension.
Seth Price
Absolutely. Well, like I thoroughly appreciate this. Where can people find you, Jason?
Jason Brown
Yeah, you can find me at review fraud or on Twitter as Kaiser Holiday, which is Kaiser so say from usual suspects. So yeah, that's, that's where I am or I'm always hanging out in the Google My Business community forum, trying to help businesses that are struggling with issues with GMP that they just can't get help from getting all Google support.
Seth Price
Well, thank you so much, Jason, and I can't wait to hopefully see you in person at one of these conferences when they come back.
Jason Brown
Oh, I can't wait. I'm missing conferences. I'm missing my family.
BluShark Digital
Thank you for tuning in to the SEO insider with Seth price. Be sure to check back next week for fresh insights into building your brand's online presence. episodes are available to stream directly on BlueShark Digital's website.