In this episode, host and Senior Advocate, Robyn Jacobson, CTA chats with Jerome Tse, CTA, Partner at King & Wood Mallesons and Marg Marshall, CTA, Partner at WLF Accounting & Advisory about the importance of looking after yourself and what’s in store for 2022, including:
In this episode, host and Senior Advocate, Robyn Jacobson, CTA chats with Jerome Tse, CTA, Partner at King & Wood Mallesons and Marg Marshall, CTA, Partner at WLF Accounting & Advisory about the importance of looking after yourself and what’s in store for 2022, including:
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Hello, and welcome to TaxVibe, a podcast by The Tax Institute. I'm Robyn Jacobson, the Senior Advocate at The Tax Institute, and your host of today's podcast. We love the vibe of tax and here at The Tax Institute, we do tax differently. I'll be chatting with some of the tax professions, great thought leaders who will share valuable and practical insights you may not hear every day. We hope you enjoy this episode of TaxVibe. I'm joined by Jerome TaxVibe, CTA who is a partner at King & Wood Mallesons in Sydney, specializing in taxation disputes and litigation. Jerome is also the firm's global transfer pricing coordinator. Jerome is an experienced tax practitioner and has been involved in a number of Australia's recent high profile tax cases. Jerome is a National Counselor of The Tax Institute, has been the 2021 Vice President and will be our President for 2022.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
I'm also joined by Marg Marshall, CTA who is a partner at WLF Accounting and Advisory in Hobart. Marg has built a reputation as one of Australia's foremost experts in specialist taxation. She is regularly engaged to present local and national conferences and seminars. Her professional commentary is also in demand for media. And as a panelist speaker, Marg has over 25 years experience in chartered accounting firms, Marg has been the Tasmanian National Counselor since 2016 and a State Counselor for Tasmania since 2013, she'll be the Vice President of The Tax Institute for 2022. Jerome and Marg, welcome to Tax Vibe for this final episode for 2021. And congratulations on your appointments for next year.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Thanks Robyn. Very excited for 2022, very excited for 2021 to end too.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Oh yes, absolutely. Yes.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
We talk about the light at the end of the tunnel finally, and we hope that this indeed is the light at the end of the tunnel and not another oncoming train like the Delta Variant was this year. So Marg, just to quickly kick off, the professions pretty exhausted, isn't it?
Marg Marshall, CTA:
You're right. Robyn, everyone really needs a break. People have worked very very hard over the last 18 months to two years and not many did take a break last year, I know that. So we are seeing a lot of fatigue amongst our members and we are really strongly encouraging people to try and take that break. In fact, not just try, actually book it in and do it-
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
And leave the laptops at the office.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah. Leave your laptop at the office, if you are working in the office of course. That's one of the problems I suppose, with this year is so many people still working from home, that separation of work and fun, those lines are very blurred. So shut it, close it, put it in its bag, put it in a cupboard. So you can't even see it.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Don't be tempted.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Jerome, the Tax institute's going to be launching a new campaign called Out of Office, and we're going to be running this over the next few weeks. And it's really an opportunity to our members and the wider tax community to take that willing break so people can focus on life outside of work over the holiday period. We can talk in cliches about swapping suits for sandals and Zoom for [zeeds 00:03:33] and emails for easy breezy days. But Jerome in all seriousness, how, do we ensure that people do take the break that is so deserved and needed this Summer?
Jerome Tse, CTA:
That's hard though to, especially because we can't travel and we might get to that down the track in this podcast. I'm seeing a lot of our staff accumulate annual leave and that's not great for us. And the cynics might say, as an owner of a business, you're just trying to reduce your a liability, but in all seriousness, that is there for you to rest and recuperate. It's not there for you to, I mean, ideally, if you've got an eight week European holiday book, that's great, but we've had a two year stint in Australia where we can't really go anywhere. We really need to take this January, take the leave and rest. January, I guess, for a litigator like me is probably the ideal time because the courts are closed. The barristers are all on holidays and I've encouraged my teams to take January off.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
It's one of the few months of the year or few weeks of the year that you can. And indeed the holiday period, between the end of December and January, no client's going to be calling you. So as Marg said, take, put your laptop away. When I go overseas for a longer break, I usually turn my work emails off in iPhone. So I'll keep my home emails on. I'll keep my messages on, but I'm one of those people who have [Ad 00:04:57] so there's one on there, I need to read it. So if I turn it off, I don't see that there's an email outstanding and I'll turn it on at the end of the day. But please do take a break. I've been telling my team to take a break. And I tell all our members and our listeners, you deserve a break.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
And it's Important to have that self-awareness or however you want to express that emotional awareness that sometimes we get so caught up in the busyness and the deadlines and the adrenaline that sometimes it can be difficult to stand back and recognize that you indeed do need a mental break.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
That's right. Unfortunately, alcohol... I'm Probably one of these people, alcohol probably doesn't help you sleep. Right? So maybe sometimes just go lighter on the alcohol. You get a better sleep for it. I mean, I usually try and do [Feet Fast 00:05:45] or [Dry July 00:05:46]. I'm not plugging either of those charities, but they're good for You.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
I've got friends who are drinking 0% alcohol. Now I'm not here to plug that either. But it is something that's becoming more socially acceptable and you get none of the downsides of having an afternoon on the beers that does contain alcohol.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Yep. And that's certainly something I'm starting to do more and more. And you know, they look like real beers. I've had bad, not alcohol free Gin. I haven't found a good one at those yet.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
I've got a recommendation for you.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Probably a Tassie one. Hey Marg.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah, definitely a Tassie one. There's some good ones out there you do, but you'd have to find them, but you're absolutely right. The whole alcohol thing can be... it's a time when we do have lots of opportunities to drink. There's always been in the past a bit of an expectation, but I'm seeing the same thing amongst my friends and peers, people making choices about how much or what they're going to drink and making those healthy choices and absolutely right. I sleep much better if I haven't had a skin form before I go to bed. So yeah,
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
We recently went to both a brewery and a winery and managed to get through most of it without any alcohol. It's, it's quite amazing. Jerome, we look at the year, in fact, the two years that we've had, but particularly the last 12 months, which we didn't see coming, and we can say the same thing about 2020, but we got to the end of 20 and really thought we'd done the hard yards and 21 was going to be very different. And, and so for many people, this was actually a harder year than 2020. And of course, New South Wales had the extended lockdown really for the first time in the pandemic, to the extent it did. So, how do you avoid burnout? And, and when you find yourself depleted, how do you perhaps in a normal environment, if I could still refer to normality and perhaps how has it been affected by the past couple of years?
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Usually what I like doing, I'm not as active as my doctors tell me, I need to be, what I usually do is, go... I like holidays, I like going to new places, whether it's domestic or overseas, unfortunate enough or unfortunate enough to go overseas for work for a bit. So, usually take on a weekend here or there just to find a new place. And that's been hard obviously, because we haven't been allowed to travel. So I don't think I've switched off as well as some other people who might be able to, do laps of Bondi Beach, and go up and down swimming. So it's been hard for me and I think people have to not be afraid of saying it's been hard, because people will help, but I'm hoping, next year, subject to Omicron that will stop and we can go and do things again. I have to preach what I tell my teams. I need to recharge in January too.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Marg, How do you work out the best way to break away from all the hecticness of the day?
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Well, Robyn of course, being in Tassie much more fortunate than the rest of the country in terms of haven't had a lockdown since that very first one that the whole country went into, apart from a very short three day one, and generally, able to do most things. My personal thing is Green time, I'm a big believer in Green time, getting out, having a bush walk, even locally here in Hobart. And it's the same in most cities, there are parks and trees are really important for that. If you can get in amongst some trees, whether it's half an hour or an all day walk, I find that's very... it's calming, and it just resets your mind. And I've been on this one, my personal trainer runs Friday afternoon walks or Friday night walks and that's Winter and Summer. So down here in Summer, of course we get the very long evenings and that's fabulous.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
But in Winter, the walking in the dark, is a lovely thing to do as well. And we take really easy parts and those sorts of things and it's really local and it's only an hour and a half. It's a Friday night thing and it really puts a great full stop on the week. They're becoming more popular, more people doing them. And so, I would encourage everyone to and get some Green time if you can. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea. And a lot of people aren't that active, but you know, a half hour stroll through a park even can be enough really.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Thinking of the contrast. So, let's work on the basis. You've spent the whole week in your office. You've been sitting at your desk, you've been sedentary and the mind's been incredibly active and working hard, and then you've switched them around. So when you're going for your walk on the Friday afternoon, closes off the week, you're now physically active and the mind is switched gear completely.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yep. It is amazing. And it is really, really good for wellbeing. I find it's great for my wellbeing and I've noticed because I haven't been able to go for the last few weeks and now the season's finished and everyone's busy doing Christmas things. I can see a difference in me just from not having done it. So I know what it does for me. Green time, really important.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Maybe it's because I'm a Piscean, but I've always found that water is calming. So whether it's a beach, an ocean, a lake, a river, I find if I can be near water and watch the floods, it's a bit like watching the embers in a fireplace, watching the flow of water, I find incredibly calming. So let's change gear in our conversation. We're closing off 2021 move. We're moving into 2022. We know it's got to be a federal election year. We have this wonder full system in Australia where we're still going to have speculation for many months as to when the election will be held. But we know it's got to be held on the basis. There is one election next year, not two because they technically could run the half Senate plus the full Lower House, but they're going to run one general election. It would need to be by the 21st of May. We now know that the parliamentary sittings they've scheduled 29 March for the federal budget. So that would suggest an election sometime in early to mid-May. So, there's an imperative to keep tax reform on the radar here, but what are some of the key issues that we'd like to keep on our tax radar? And Jerome, I'll kickoff with you, in corporate land? What are the key tax issues on your radar?
Jerome Tse, CTA:
I think industrial matters are going to come to the forefront. There's been a lot of pressure on staffing, not enough employees, in restaurants and so on in accounting and IT and so on. So I think industrial issues pertaining to tax and super will come to the forefront, particularly contractor, employee issues. You've seen the on call payroll tax matter and that's spreading to New South Wales and other states and territories as well. So, I think those things are important to keep an eye out on. Internationally transfer pricing, I think continues to rear its ugly head, financing issues, commodities, IP, and then IP generally, you've got two products coming out from the ATO next year, got the current draft software ruling and also the intangibles BCG. So, they will impact corporate tax payers if not mid-market as well. And finally, I think Crypto finally, Crypto is coming to the forefront for good or bad-
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
And in the corporate world,
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Well, in the corporate world, you're looking at exchanges and financing and blockchain issues. So maybe not Crypto particularly, but blockchain and technology. There are some really interesting developments coming out. CBA's released its Crypto App in the last couple weeks. So, consumers can start or select consumers can start trading in Crypto now. So you've got Senator Bragg's report coming out and then a referral on Crypto CGT and Crypto to the border tax. So that's all next year. So I think Crypto is going to be quite an interesting new development. It's interesting to me and I hopefully interesting to a few other people I wouldn't ever in invest in it yet. I've got a house to pay off, but there are others who probably are less risk averse.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Look, it's certainly one of those areas that a few people dabbled in it some years ago, but it is becoming much more mainstream. And for that reason, we're seeing increasingly more guidance from the ATO about the CGT implications. And of course the impact we in you're trading or exchanging for different Cryptocurrencies.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Yeah. And whether it's a foreign currency now, we've got Ecuador, I think-
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
El Salvador.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
El Salvador, sorry, using Bitcoin. So, there's some guidance to come out from the ATO hopefully next year, too.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Really interesting space. And I want to watch next year. Marg, in the SME space, what's on the radar here?
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Uh, Robyn, we've got a few things that we've been waiting for a while. People are probably sick of us hearing from the Tax Institute that we're still waiting on, D7 reform that we've been promised now for years. There has been some indication that we are likely to see something early in the new year around D7 [inaudible 00:14:15] 100. So I guess it's a watch this space with that one, but does seem as though there is some traction going on there that's, as I understand it, the ATO talking, we're still not really sure what treasury are doing.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
That's correct. What we're hearing. And this was a shared at a recent conference. We ran in [Mosa 00:14:33] we are of still of course waiting for treasury to release draft legislation on the proposed reforms, which- we are now up to nine and a half years from when the measures were first reviewed by the Board of Taxation. And certainly we're talking about five years or so since the government committed to reforming them. This is [separate 00:14:51]. So the ATO is looking at the current D7 guidance that the ATO's published. And they're looking at putting out some fresh guidance early next year. So I think it's important to note, this is quite separate from any legislative reform that treasury might initiate or progress.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah. So I think it's important for us to note, to be across that. And of course when that guidance comes out, we will be putting material out to our members and no doubt offering training, but it's a really good distinction that Robyn points out that this is not legislative reform, which is what we've been waiting for. So, we continue with a bit of uncertainty there. The other big thing that I suppose we can all expect is the analyzed version of the PCG 2021 D2, which of course is the allocation of professional firm profits. So that's obviously very dear to a lot of our members' hearts, and it'll be interesting to see what the ATO have done with our voluminous submissions that have come through from various parts of the profession. We certainly put our own in, and there was a joint submission as well. So I'm very keen to see what it looks like in terms of my own practice. And I know others are as well.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
PCG is scheduled to be released on Thursday the 16th of December. It will be interesting to see if it doesn't indeed get issued that date. And then of course the reaction of the profession to what is finally published. But we do know that there will be an additional 12 months in terms of its application date. So it's now going to take effect from on July 2022, which is a positive and a sensible outcome.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yes. As it should be, Merry Christmas, like thanks ATO, maybe they'll listen, but maybe they won't, but we'll see. Yeah.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
All right. So vision for next year, both of you move into formal leadership positions on National Council and as Directors of The Tax Institute. So Jerome is President and Marg is Vice President. What are your respective visions? And I'll start with Jerome first. For next year, what would you like to see as a legacy of your presidency and, and the Institute more broadly achieves throughout next year? And by the way, I'm not going to hold you any commitments in this podcast.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Marg will though.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
I've got, I'm taking notes Jerome.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
I think the first thing is I think looking at our, the diversity of our membership and making sure it's reflected in all our committees, councils, event organizing committees events and so on, and also to try and attract new members who might not normally be members. So that's really important for us. I think that's been important for society, I think in the last couple years, if not more. So I'm really keen to get a formal diversity policy up and running with Joanna Price. Who's the GM of people and culture at The Tax Institute, making sure our members don't burn out is really important supporting members through education, advocacy, and so on. Just what, what do members need? We're looking at a new website. I know we've said this a few times, but I mean, going back to the industrial issues, trying to find IT staff, in all our businesses has been difficult. So it is a little bit slower than what we'd ideally like, but we want to get a website that works for our members. So, that is coming next year. There are a few other things Marg, you might want talk about Micro Credentials and things, but that's quite exciting.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah. Jerome, I'm happy to... Like Micro Credentials, is a new way of learning that probably a bit of a buzzword out there in learning and education, but we've taken on the challenge of turning some of our programs into really tiny bite sized bits. So you can get hold of a small, maybe a 10 minute or a 20 minute online learning program, do that and build up your knowledge that way. So these little bites like chunks that, you just might want to understand one section of Div 152. So, you've got something a bit quirky on the CGTS, more business concessions. You get, you've got the basics down, but you've got something that's a bit out of the ordinary. So you can go through the catalog of Micro Creds and find that bite size bit. It doesn't, it's not going to be hideously expensive to do the course.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
You're not committing to 10 hours. It's not a whole day thing, you can do it when you want to. And it's meant to be something that you can get in, do it, and then get on with your work and, hoping to launch that in this coming year. And that will grow as we go. The first offerings will be limited because to Jerome's point about IT staff, and all of that sort of stuff, we've got lots to do in terms of making sure that the learning content is right as well. So there's a fair, there's going to be a lot of rigor behind this and, it will be something that you can hang your hat on. We're really excited by the prospect that people can get what they need in the timeframe that they wanted it and in something that's easy, and not too time consuming.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
So looking forward to seeing that come to fruition and look, we are really interested in seeing how people's careers are going. What makes your career in tax actually meaningful? Look, I'm really, really quite proud to say well, to have been involved with The Tax Institute over the last couple of years through the pandemic, the amount of work that we did that supported our members, all of the webinars that we did around job keep and cashflow boost and, and the stuff that was done for the state based stimulus packages, all of that was provided as part of your membership. And so we want to make sure that our community is engaged, that we continue to see that happen. People are seeing this as a valuable thing to have in terms of their membership and that they can be either involved just via the learning and the training opportunities that are provided or get involved in other ways. So we are really looking forward to seeing how that pans out for next year.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
You talk about diversity. I think about how diverse tax is. It touches everything we do. And I don't just mean we as tax professionals, everyone in the community, whether you're a business owner, an investor, a retiree, an employee, you work in the gig economy, tax affects everything. And so everyone can be part of this conversation about how to improve the system? How to improve engagement? How to improve... How the regulators do what they do? And The Tax Institute's got a really important role, not just for our members, but also more broadly for the community.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Now that's that's right here. And I think diversity, I mean, may not just mean gender or ethnicity. It can mean getting more younger people involved, or getting the older, and, who have the wisdom, who might be retired and getting them back involved in the community as well, even though they might not be practicing anymore. They've got an important part to play in the system as well. So, I am interested in making sure that we, our membership and our offerings are diverse to meet those diverse audiences because the TTIs vision, isn't just for our members it's to improve the system for the community generally.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
So, as we draw the year to a close and thankfully we can draw a line under this very challenging year, how are both of you going to stop and recharge over the Christmas break and come into 2022 with your new roles and, lots of fighting energy to take on all the challenges of next year?
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Is probably common enough, in a number of offices. Well, I hope it's common. We will close on Christmas Eve. The lead up to Christmas in our office is amazing. Really, we do Christmas very well in our office with lots of things on lots of celebration, secret Santa and Christmas decoration competitions and all sorts of stuff. So the office looks a bit like Maya with the windows and things.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Santa's Workshop?
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Yeah. Yes, somebody just walked past my office carrying a Large Life-Sized Elf. So, it's on. So we will close until the 4th. Then, I am going to take a break in January. I'm having the second two weeks of January off and having beach time going to a lovely spot. One of my favorite parts of Tassie, The Bay of Fires. So really looking forward to 10 days at the beach. And yeah, so that's my way of having a bit of a break.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
[inaudible 00:23:06] feeling the sand between your toes instead of the keyboard under your fingers.
Marg Marshall, CTA:
Absolutely. Right. Robyn, absolutely. Right. Yes.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
And Jerome?
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Probably just trying to find short breaks in New South Wales, maybe Queensland now that I'm allowed to go and Tassie as well. I mean, Marg knows I can [sort a 00:23:23] Tassie holiday earlier in the year because of coronavirus. So might head back down there and visit Mona in Hobart and just recharge for the new year.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Well, thank you both for coming on the show, it's been wonderful to chat to you both, and hear about your visions for next year. I also want to thank you on behalf of The Tax Institute for the work that you do for us and the work you have done and will do into next year. So, I hope you have a wonderful break and come back with all that wonderful energy we're going to need from you both.
Jerome Tse, CTA:
Thanks Robyn. And just thank you to all our members as well. You've done a great effort over the last year, two years, to help support the community through this job keep, job saver, all the New South Wales and state support packages. I know you're tired. We're here to help you next year. Our goal is to help you educate not just in technical, but in practical ways in wellbeing. Hopefully, we'll see you in person in some events as well. That hopefully that starts again. And I know Robyn, you are reaching to get going and seeing people around the country. So hopefully we'll get to see you all in 2022.
Robyn Jacobson, CTA:
Okay. Those sentiments. Exactly. Jerome, it's been an amazing year. The profession has absolutely stepped up. Everyone should be incredibly proud of themselves, but absolutely recharge and, take that will deserve break. And we look forward to seeing it some face to face events next year. So, thank you for listening to this episode of Tax Vibe. I've been chatting with Jerome TaxVibe, partner King and Wood Mallesons, and the 2022 President of The Tax Institute and Marg Marshall, partner at WLF Accounting and Advisory and the 2022 Vice President of The Tax Institute to keep up to date with Tax Vibe, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like to connect with us on social media, follow The Tax Institute on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, you can join the conversation on our member only community forum, @community.taxinstitute.com.au. Not a member of The Tax Institute? Join a collective voice of 15,OOO practitioners at the heart of the profession and find out what the best tax professionals have in common. Join today, and save 50% on membership. For more information, visit taxinstitute.com.au/membership. You can also contact us by emailing taxvibe@taxinstitute.com.au. On behalf of The Tax Institute, I wish you all a safe, relaxing and happy festive season, and we look forward to you joining us next year.