Have you ever stopped to ponder how your personal experiences, upbringing, and societal biases have shaped you? Join Antowan and I as we engage in a candid appraisal of these weighty topics from our diverse perspectives. Drawn from shared experiences such as communal meals and my upbringing on the South Side of Milwaukee (in the 60’s and 70’s) and Antowan’s on the South side of Chicago (in the 1980s), we unravel how societal narratives have both challenged and enriched us.
Our conversation ventures into the realm of racial bias, inequality, and political exploitation of crime, casting a light on the harmful effects of negative portrayals of black people in the media. Together with Antowan we confront the “elephant in the room” - issues like Christian nationalism, masculinity in the church, and systemic issues that have disproportionately affected black people. We question societal norms and invite our listeners to join us in this quest for truth.
Yet, our conversation is not just about dissecting problems. We propose solutions too. From breaking down social etiquette barriers to creating opportunities for disadvantaged youth, we explore practical ways to uplift communities. As we reflect on our own experiences and our journey, we underscore the importance of regular communication, hoping that our dialogue will inspire listeners to engage in deeper contemplation on these themes. Tune in to our spirited discussion, and join us in fostering empathy and unity through conversation.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Have you ever stopped to ponder how your personal experiences, upbringing, and societal biases have shaped you? Join Antowan and I as we engage in a candid appraisal of these weighty topics from our diverse perspectives. Drawn from shared experiences such as communal meals and my upbringing on the South Side of Milwaukee (in the 60’s and 70’s) and Antowan’s on the South side of Chicago (in the 1980s), we unravel how societal narratives have both challenged and enriched us.
Our conversation ventures into the realm of racial bias, inequality, and political exploitation of crime, casting a light on the harmful effects of negative portrayals of black people in the media. Together with Antowan we confront the “elephant in the room” - issues like Christian nationalism, masculinity in the church, and systemic issues that have disproportionately affected black people. We question societal norms and invite our listeners to join us in this quest for truth.
Yet, our conversation is not just about dissecting problems. We propose solutions too. From breaking down social etiquette barriers to creating opportunities for disadvantaged youth, we explore practical ways to uplift communities. As we reflect on our own experiences and our journey, we underscore the importance of regular communication, hoping that our dialogue will inspire listeners to engage in deeper contemplation on these themes. Tune in to our spirited discussion, and join us in fostering empathy and unity through conversation.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Well, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Folks, we've had a vacation here from Frame of Reference coming together. First, we are back back back. For those of you that don't know, you have just turned into Frame of Reference coming together, and the brother sitting across from me is Antoine Hollman, senior. Right, don't be messing with junior, you are a senior, antoine Hollman. So and my my name's Raul Abreche, and we are here to talk about, talk about things that need to be talked about. So this is the show where you can hear from a regular old white guy and a regular old black guy talking about what is this thing that keeps us from just being regular old guys together? So I don't get it. How you doing, man.
Speaker 1:I'm doing great, you know, just a walk in the walk, you know, and that's pretty much it Just give God glory, that's. He's up and keeping me and my wife and just keeping the ministry. We're getting ready for our holiday meals coming up, so just ready to spread some love on folks and hopefully some souls are saved and just really just show the love of Christ. But yeah, just it's good to see you again, man, I miss you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know you're talking about Faith Works Ministries, right, the work you're doing in Baraboo, wisconsin. So which is can you?
Speaker 1:believe the holidays are coming already.
Speaker 2:Man. Thanksgiving, Christmas will be here just around the corner.
Speaker 1:It's just crazy. In the last quarter of the year, yeah. In the last quarter.
Speaker 2:So, and at the time of the year where you know everything may be going to heck in a handbasket around us, we still have. We have a lot to celebrate, which is a good thing. Maybe we can all come together and celebrate together. That would be a good thing.
Speaker 1:So that's what those meals are for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, sit around to have. It was a lot harder to otherize someone that you're sitting across from the table knowing on a turkey leg with you know, or scooping on some mashed potatoes, it's. It's a lot harder to say anything nasty about someone that you've seen. Oh, they actually do use knives and forks, and I mean I barely do when I do Thanksgiving I want to shovel with my hands just about. I'm so hungry and waiting for it.
Speaker 1:And that's what the meals are about. You know, it's like a unity course. We're probably, you know, we're moving to meet the needs of people, but also, through the volunteerism, people were stepping outside of your comfort zones, coming to, I'd say, not necessarily off their high horse, but coming into the valley to see how some people are actually living and just even sharing a meal with someone, being able to just hear their story, their plight, their how they got to where they are. Yeah, and you know, and of course you know.
Speaker 1:And of course, when you get people together like that, you know a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings are eliminated. Because when you hear firsthand, hey, you know, some people may become underemployed or homeless or whatever it is. Sometimes, yeah, they're bad decisions, but no, sometimes there's a injury, there's a life event that puts a person in a space. And then, of course, if you can just literally just sit and listen to a person, regardless of race, and just hear where they're coming from you, you, you get a fresh perspective in. But also just a is humbling and also just a give you an idea of wow, I'm me and my family may not be just two steps away from that as well. Yeah, so, just you know, you can learn a lot from another person's life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. Well, you know, and that's a kind of that's our topic for today, isn't it? You know to? I've just wanted for a long time to kind of, you know, we've got big topics of you know, crime and and you know what, what makes people go do things like they did down Jacksonville and and that, that stuff.
Speaker 2:And I wonder I'm wondering if it isn't just because, or partly because, we forget that everybody's in the same battle. You know, everybody is trying to just get through life and and it's hard, and we have a tendency to think that I think, you know, people don't understand how tough my life is. You know, they just don't get it. And I thought, well, you know, let's just try to talk about a day in the life you know, a day in the life of me, a day in the life of you, and you know a day in the life of people that we aren't. You know I don't live on the South Side of Chicago and you don't anymore, right, you, you? You lived in the South Side of Chicago, right, for a while, okay, morning, ray, yeah, and, and Boston and LA, right, so you've been in a couple of different Madison, okay, a lot of different urban and not so urban environments.
Speaker 2:Right, I've lived, you know, born and raised in Milwaukee, so not too far from you down there, in Chicago and Waukesha, wisconsin, and Northridge, california, and Madison, wisconsin, middleton, Wisconsin, and now in my wonderful Prairie, du Sack. So Wisconsin, and so you know, I'd like to think that, you know, I've not been in a big old mansion, or you know I ever had, you know, silver spoons in my mouth, so always been stainless steel. But so I'd like to think I have life that's fairly normal. I don't know, you know, working the working class, poor, I guess, what it seems like. But, and you know you and your wife are moaners, struggling, right, I mean, it's just a day in, day out. There's no guarantees, there's no silver spoon in your mouth, I don't see one. So so what's it like? What's a day like in your, your life, or what has it been like? What does an average day look like in your life?
Speaker 1:In my life. You know now that my life has been given completely to Christ. It's all about the saving of souls and using my testimony to save others, because my upbringing or my struggles in life you share your revelation with people, in your testimony with people and with the hopes of them avoiding the same mistakes that you have made. And, of course, we're living in a day and a time where you know people are believing a lie and accepting it as truth. Of course, everybody's truth these days is based on feel, and so it's like when you're trying to bridge gaps or give a understanding to things, most people are tuned out now because it's like it's my way or no way. And so when we're talking about discipleship, you know, and trying to evangelize and spread the gospel, you know people have different views of what it's like to be a man or woman of God because of what they've seen on TV, what they're hearing and seeing in the media and even in their communities. So it's becoming a struggle just to get people. I wouldn't say a struggle, but it's. A lot of people have not represented Christ in his actual culture, manifested his culture and exhibit his nature, and so you have to. There's a more that much more explanation need be given, but that's a part of discipleship, but that's a kind of part of the day in the life. But you know, of course, walking this planet as a black male, you know, as a black male, it has been what it's been. If it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, it would be a very frustrating journey.
Speaker 1:You know, of course, just all these things that, like you know, you see right before our very eyes, of rights are being taken away, and again it's just like people throw out these images, they throw out their point of views and it's just people run with them versus actually taking the time to get to know people. And something that baffles me is just like how can you know? It's like that you know you battle imported racism where it's like a person will never have ever interacted with a person of another race, but yet they hate. And it's like how can you know? You saw on TV, you heard on the radio, you, whatever, but you haven't experienced the person and you know.
Speaker 1:And so that's a kind of day in my life, you know, when you just you're trying to you walk upright to try to dispel any stereotypes or or misconceptions, and but at the same time it's like being yourself. You know, it's like culturally being yourself. You know I'm a t shirt, blue jeans, plaid shirt kind of guy. You know some people will say, hey, you dress like a white person, then, of course. And then it's like, but it's like this is just what is that?
Speaker 1:So this is, this is what I like and this is what fits me and what I'm comfortable in. But then also, you know people get upset when you start. You know speaking truths to matters. You know, but prior to us coming on, we were having a conversation. You know how people get upset with you because you're they're not, you're not their idea of you and so in the course, I'm never going to be that and so when I is we talked about this before when you point out an issue, you become the problem.
Speaker 1:So I'm a problem to a lot of people because I point out the issue. You know it's like, hey, you know, when it comes to things of race and and just discrimination and justice, you know, and just blatant aspects of it, and just pointing out to people that, hey, you know. And when you're trying to explain to people that, hey, you're in the same boat as I am and they're not understanding or getting it, it could be frustrating. Like I said, if it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, it'd be a very frustrating walk. But I just give God glory that he has changed me from the inside out and all I could do is try to exhibit the love of Christ, and it is. It could be frustrating if I didn't have my relationship.
Speaker 2:So, and I'm curious about that, I mean, there's obviously been a transformational experience in your life, right, but help me, I don't think we've talked You've kind of talked about your, the things that you grew up with. You know your mom being an exotic dancer, you know, and spending a lot of time in bars as a young kid, you know, and in her new and her thing, she wanted to keep an eye on you, so she brought you with her to you know, an environment that a lot of parents oh my God, I can't believe you brought him to you know, and it's like, well, you know, she was actually being a good mom by keeping an eye on you and not just letting you, you know, run on the streets and get into whatever. But how, how different were you back then? Like, if you had stayed on that trajectory, what do you think your life would be like today?
Speaker 1:I probably wouldn't be here. You know again, growing up in the nightlife, like I said, my grandparent, my father's parents, owned a tavern. So whenever I was with my dad, I was sitting on a bar stool behind the bar watching all the rackets that go on. And just same as with my mother when she was working, I was on a bar stool behind the bar watching all the rackets. And again, before I was 13, 14 years old, I could probably mix every drink under the sun. I knew every game that was to be played, and and then, of course, you just grow up in it. And then, lo and behold, what do I do with my life? I become a nightclub restaurant manager, and.
Speaker 1:But it kind of comes down to because all of us want the same thing. We want to have a good life right, we want to provide for our families, we want to just raise our children right way. However, a lot of our journeys are different. Some people grow up on a straight and narrow, whether it's in a rural situation. Some people grow up in a tough situation, whether it's in a city, but we all want the same thing. But, however, what's happening today is, you know, like when you share your testimony or you share your journey. The judgment comes, you know, and it's like you know people, you know that's where you know I could be frustrating because, again, people are judging and not loving. You know, of course, when we start judging people, we take Jesus off the throne and put ourselves up there. And then, you know, you were talking to me about a gentleman that wore a chain in quick trip but he was kind of got a little indirect scald A male, another white male because of the chain right, and it's like that's again.
Speaker 1:It's like we have to get to a space where we can understand cultural differences but we all want the same thing and just, yes, I'm going to talk different, act different, be different because of where I came from Doesn't mean I want this, don't want the same thing as you. And when, if you can just get, if people can just get that that we all want the same thing. And, yes, you, there's. Unless you know, of course, we have to account for the injustices and economic disproportionate you know disproportionate and all those different kinds. We have to account for those things. They bring us to a point and it brings you to an attitude, it brings you to a behavior. You know, and, and it's just like I praise God that he touched me and I was able to outgrow it, and yeah, and so all you can do is just try to bring people to that light via Christ.
Speaker 2:See, and that's the thing that's amazing to me honestly about, about you and this, this young man, well, middle-aged man that was talking with the other day, who you know, is now coming to work for a company that I worked for, and his attitude is so, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to take advantage of any opportunity that comes my way. You know, I, he firmly believing that, you know, there's a purpose for his life, that he was given, you know, an opportunity to do something, has no idea what it is, but he's, he's, you know, going after that that thing and tell you know, and if it gets revealed to, when it gets revealed to him, but then he's telling me there's just little you know anecdotes of the chain that he, you know he's wearing, he just likes the chain, you know, and somebody coming in and you know who'd been, is kind of a regular and saying what's with the chain, you know, not a curious chain, you know, like I mean, I said I probably would be like hey, that's a really cool chain. What is that? Is that from somebody? Did it? Was that a gift from somebody? Yeah, but we're somewhere, you know, kind of deal, um, and because I'm curious about stuff. But this was a judgment, you know. This was an obvious judgment of you know. Oh, are you one of those black men? Cause I'm going to be more careful, I'm going to be watching you now, um, or you know, or what. And he decided, you know, he was like oh no, it's just a. You know, I forget how he said he explained it, but after the guy walked out, he tucked the chain under his t-shirt so that he wouldn't offend anyone else. And you know, I think about that.
Speaker 2:What is it like to have a life where you have to be careful of wearing a chain or careful of having a do rag on? We talked about do rags for a while too, about how, you know, these people would wear them when they're sleeping just to keep their hair from getting all messed up, and then started to realize how do rag kind of looks cool, I think I'll wear that out. And all of a sudden, the do rag, or you know, if you got a do rag on, you're like a gangbanger. I mean, that's just, that's a given right, and you know, that's just so.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry folks, I think that's pathetic that we are that willing to be put off and allow ourselves to be put off by something that meaningless and that, well, you know, and it is meaningful if you would just ask questions about what is the meaning. And we've talked about you know what is with the hats and the different. You know, I have it that way, I have it this way, you know just like what is it. And so that makes me wonder, because in my life I mean I can wear, you know, my Star Trek sweater that I have on today, you know, with Scotty saying I cannot change the laws of physics, you know, and people will go, yeah, he's a Trekkie, those guys are kind of weird, but no one is going to confront me about. Am I something different than I am, besides a nerd? You know big whoop-de-doo. You know I am a nerd, I get it.
Speaker 2:But in there's a negative place that we go to with the things that we see on black people that helps to reinforce our bias that black people deserve to be beat up by cops. I mean, I hate to say I think there is a root of that that are certain spectrum of people just go. Well, you know, george Floyd must have been doing something that he deserved. That it's like nobody, nobody, nobody deserves to have somebody on their neck for, you know, over eight minutes or nine minutes, I forget now what the exact. They've got the exact time because people were filming it, for goodness sakes, and yet, and yet we do. And I don't get how you don't. I don't get how black people in general are not so angry all the time that we're gunning up, you know and ready.
Speaker 1:The thing is, the thing is, you know, like I said, if it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, yes, I would be one of those angry men walking around because you see, in things right before your very eyes, people who I have a believed lies and accepted them as truths. You know, you get part of the country thinking that, oh, the country is being taken from them, the culture is being taken from them, the women are being taken from them, all these different kind of things, and it's like that's not the case. We all just want to live a good life and when we can really get that underlying current, just that common, later, we all want to live a good life and, however, you know, when it comes to living a good life, people have their idea of what a good life looks like and how another person is supposed to live. You know, of course, it's like you know we were talking like how, you know how white people most well, let's say white men, they like black men that act somewhat like white men.
Speaker 2:Right, they like them more. I'm more comfortable with you, if you do that.
Speaker 1:So please do that. Yeah, exactly. And the thing is it's like why should I have to change myself to make you happy? Why can't you just accept me for who I am and understand that? Hey, yes, because I.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, you know, from a cultural standpoint, just because a person has braids, has their words, a certain kind of outfit doesn't make them a criminal, doesn't make them a violent or nonviolent. But it goes back to how black on black crime has been around the election cycle. Every time crime is the issue, right, and so we talk about how black on black crime is kind of like exploited in a sense. Now, when you look at the grand scheme of things, you know 60% of black crimes are committed by another black person. Just like you know, when it comes to a white crime, 57% of crimes committed against white people are against other white people. So the numbers are not that far off.
Speaker 1:But one thing is perpetuated or exacerbated more so than the other for the sake of whether it's a political gain or just to kind of continuously perpetuate a certain stereotype, to keep people in fear and then just to keep this stigma going of when you see them run, when you see them, that's their goals in neighborhood and it's just like in some. Some people, some white people, don't fall into the trap, but some people do. And then in the sad part is now you have another faction of it where this thing is happening in the church. You got Christian nationalism, you got thing called Christian masculinity. You know, for the life of me, it's just like it bothers me so much when I say white evangelicals, now we're supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, you know, and in Christ there's no color, there's no race, just like you know. Remember when the Pharisees came in, approach Jesus. Well, if the woman married seven brothers, who is she married to? In the end? It's like no, she's not married to him because we're all going to be in the form of angels, so it doesn't matter. And so you got to understand if we're, if we are made in the image of God and God is a spirit we too are spirits housed in a carnal body. Just so, having mine is darker than yours right now, but in the end of things we are all the same. And yes and again, there has been different roads traveled to get to a certain space and when we can just really celebrate the road travel to get to a certain space. If you're willing to understand that, you'll learn a lot from it.
Speaker 1:No, because, like a member we were talking about, like you know, when it came to like, say, things of understanding credit and things like that, you know, like, most white kids learn that at a fairly young age, in their late teens, early twenties. Right, I didn't get it or it just really didn't hit me until like my mid, late thirties, you know, and it's like those types of things and it's like, but when we talk about these frustrations and things like that, it's like people, you know, don't understand that they come from a place. You know they come from a place. You know. Like, when you're talking about, you know, the disproportionate treatment of black people, like, whether it's in the criminal justice system, in the healthcare system, in the education system, all these different things, there is a noticeable difference in treatment and so, yes, the behavior or the action or the attitude, it comes from a place. But, however, when I'm talking to young black men, it's like, yes, those things have happened, but now it's like that has happened. What are you going to do to change it Now? Are you going to be a positive voice or are you going to be a continuous perpetuation of the stereotype? And so that's where the teaching and the loving of God has to come into place to really show a person hey, just because you were born in this situation don't mean you had to end up there. So it's all about changing the trajectory of a person's life.
Speaker 1:But again, it's like in some cases people, right away you're just eliminated from a lot of different things because of how you look. And it's like again, if you saw me on my T-shirt Blue Jane Day you wouldn't think that I was a 50-year-old pastor. I could walk into a convenience store and right away there's this you can just feel the tension from behind the counter to the people in the corners and you just feel it and it's like, ok. And it goes back to what we were talking about in a previous recording how we as Black people yes, we carry a 400-year-plus weight on us. Like when one Black person mess up, it's perpetuated to all of them. But if a white guy mess up, oh, that's just him and that family. It was the wrong upbringing, and so it's like. It's almost like why do I have to carry the weight of the whole race versus another person? Don't. And so even in that instance, we are in a space where we are.
Speaker 1:So I take the charge of saying, ok, lord, I'm going to exhibit your culture and manifest your nature in this earth, yes, and then the thing is it's like, yes, there's frustration. My wife and I, we experience racism almost on a daily basis, but yet, but God, because I mean it would be very easy to act out in the course, but that's one of the very tricks of the enemy. He's going to push a button, so he's going to eat the things that bother you and he'll put that thing in front of you until you lose your cool. And then that's when the person can say see, I told you that wasn't the man of God, I told you that, I told you they are who, they are Right, and so that's a constant weight. You have to monitor your.
Speaker 1:But it's like when I crossed the mid-40s, I just I can't stop caring. So I'll just tell you the truth is like I don't like this, I don't like that, or, like I said, when you point out an issue in a community, you become the problem in the community. Old people start to you know, he did, they're good guys, you know. But but you know, he said that thing I didn't like. You know, of course, it's like when we're talking about allies, you know, it's like, hey, when you talk about being an ally in this, in this, and when we talk about civil rights and things like that, I mean, are you really going to walk that walk?
Speaker 1:Because, again, it's like, at the end of the day, when things get heated, a person can just curl back into their whiteness and I pointed that out on a couple of occasions. It's like we, we were talking about a day in the life and it's like if it was a good. Going back to the original thing, if it wasn't for my relationship with God, yes, I'd be very frustrated. And however, trying now to teach other young black men or even Native American Hispanic, whoever the Lord puts in front of me, that hey, just because you're born into a situation, they'll mean that you have to end up there. But also understand this if you're going to be a believer in Christ, you're going to have to exhibit this culture, manifest this nature, and that's regardless of where you stand down the face of an enemy or if you're looking in the face of hate. You know, the Bible tells us I only have to do two things love God and love people, and after that, lord, because this is the thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's easy when we talk about being.
Speaker 2:Well, and I keep thinking, it's kind of easy at least easier I think to pretend you're a Christian as a white person, because it's assumed from the beginning that it's a possibility, you know, or whatever. But if you're a person of color, you know. If you're Latinx, probably Catholic. You know if you're black, you know probably a gospel. You know either a Bible thumper or a Pentecostal yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you know, or a gangbanger I mean you're going to there's pretty limited possibilities of what you might be. You know, if you're you know different colors, skinny wear here in your particular way probably a Muslim, and you know that that makes it okay for me to kill your six year old child. You know it's. You know we put up those stereotypes, those biases. I mean, you know you're talking about you're a kid and you're growing up in a bar. I can't imagine being in a bar watching my mom do what exotic dancers do and trying to, you know, reconcile that cognitive dissonance you know of. You know, well, it's my mommy and my mom loves me and you know, I guess that's what mommy does.
Speaker 2:I grew up when I was six years old. I had lemonade stands in front of my house that my mom made the lemonade for. You know, when I was six years old I had my pedaled fire truck that I was putting up on pieces of wood so I could get under it and pretend that I was repairing my fire truck. You know, I lived in a neighborhood where I I swear to God, I think back to Biden and I was like it was like freaking, leave it to beaver. You know, south side of Milwaukee, but across the street there was a guy that was a captain of a vice squad in the South side of Milwaukee, in the second district of Milwaukee's police department. Next door there was a woman who taught piano and my brother took piano lessons from her until he got to the point where he needed to go to the next level, right, and to this day it's still, you know, a wonderful pianist.
Speaker 2:Those opportunities that life would have been so I would think. I mean I don't want to put thoughts or words in your mouth, but I would think that's so different, right from the get go, that it's, it's a God thing that we're together and that we're able to talk and we're able to say, yeah, your journey is different than mine. But personally I'm in awe that your journey is put you to the point you're in, and from me it's kind of like, well, yeah, you should be, you should be thinking you know you're all that because you had every opportunity in the world right.
Speaker 1:And what you just said there. I just hope that the people can grasp that how kids are growing up now, neighborhoods, now, you know people are. Again, we all want the same thing and of course, however, is it's going to come down to exposure and of course that's one of the things that faith first ministries we desire to do is expose people to new and different things, expose people to Christ, you know, show them that there's a. You know, when they change their mindset, their life will change. You know what we think, we speak, what we speak, we see and what we see we do. You know, and it's like when we can actually change the mindset again from a mindset of hate and retaliation or revenge and all this other kind of things, because again, these things are being perpetuated, can their systemic and systematic racism. They continuously exist to this day in almost every, in, let's just say, every institution pertaining to life, and again, healthcare, education, justice, know, even economic and social disadvantages, all those things we see that attack. Now people want to. So what does that do? It just like continuously impoverished, his neighborhoods, closes schools and then. So what has to happen if a black kid wants an education? That mean they don't have to get on a train or like if you're in the city, you got to get on a train and try. You got to get up when the buses and running to get to this school by seven If you want to education. But in again, it's like people have to look at the. You can see the surface things, you can see violence, you can see crime, but we got to go beneath the surface and really examine the problems and really examine the things that cause these things.
Speaker 1:And so I think me growing up the way I grew up, hey, that's just what it was South Side of Chicago 70s. My mother was a pretty young lady from the south. She had a ninth grade education but I praise God that she was strong, she was resilient, you know she in the end of her life know she had cleaned up, she was trying to start a soul food restaurant. She was doing a lot of good things. She was working at UW as a CNA and as a place at the time and with the old Hilldale mall in Madison there was a place called Seventh Avenue, a lighting place. She was doing a lot of things, trying to know. Of course it was at that point is about my son, my, my oldest son, who deceased. He was a want to show him a good life. And so she worked to tell me that she was living this, that she boy again area of Madison and and so, and then that kind of change that me seeing the very ugly part of things, seeing my mother transition from hey, okay, this, a different mindset. It told me that I could do it too.
Speaker 1:And so and that's where it's like now is my job to show other people that, hey, you could do it too. And let's just put race aside, because you know we're talking low income white people as well. Showing you just because you you grew up in a space Don't mean you're going to end up there. You know, just because you're poor don't mean you have to emulate the other poor people in the area. And that's where, and that's where it's like you know that individuality and that you know just really making a determination to, hey, I want a better life. And of course, with that better life is going to require some change and of course change hurts and change is going to have you laugh at change, is going to have you ridicule, change is going to bring so much misunderstanding to you because, again, 50 old black guy don't look 50, and I thank God for that. But it's like again when I walk into a store and I found out, just got on t shirt and jeans right away.
Speaker 1:Perceptions, yeah, but I praise God for the mindset that he's given me that I can overcome them. But there's people that need to be taught how to do that. But just like we're trying, you and I talking, we are trying to teach us a white men as an example, or even white women, how to not be so quick to judge. Hey, you know, say hi to the person, is it? You know what I mean? Because you can probably say hey, you know, like, like a person say hey, you could like say a white guy speaking to a black guy. You'll probably say, hey, how you doing today. The black guy just reply, hey, what's up? And but that is the same. Greeting is the same gesture and it can come from the same heart, a good heart. But some people will take that as a wall. They don't talk right, they don't talk how I talk and right. And so that's where we, you know, and that's where, like again, we can get past a few simple, no social etiquette barriers. We can really get to some really deep conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, self imposed social etiquette barriers, yeah yeah, you know, I think of those simple things that you can say. A while ago I was at one of our local grocery stores, you know, and I'm coming out and I actually had been walking around. I have my one dog with me, Dart, who is a little fart, and Dart barks at everybody. You know he just he does a little little black dog with funny like huge ears, you know he's, he's the cutest darn thing, but he can just be annoying, is all get out. And we're walking along the lot, kind of along the edge of it, and this, you know, I don't know, middle aged black guy, big guy, gets out of his like suburban or one that just I mean he's big man.
Speaker 2:And it comes walking out and you know Dart's barking and barking and like he's ferocious, be really careful. You know he's absolutely terrifying, I know. And he just looks down at Dart, says hey, fight, oh. And and Bart dark keeps barking. I said Dart says hey. So we both just smiled and laughed at each other and kept and kept going and I thought, you know, it's those little interactions where you go. I'm a human being, he's a human being, we both have a sense of humor. You know what it, I know what it took for me to get to my sense of humor, but for him to still have the sense of humor where he interacted he could have easily just gone. Oh you white piece of crap. Yeah, you got your dog trained to be.
Speaker 2:You know all barking and attacking black people, Don't you? He could have, he could have. You know there's rationalization, realization of that's. That's a legitimate choice and you know I think about, like Dart, the, the Star Wars thing of. You know the dark side and the light side of the force and you know being asked, you know is, is the dark side stronger? And I think it's Yoda that says no, you know more seductive, perhaps faster. You know whatever, more seductive reps, but not stronger. And that makes me think about, you know, like neighborhoods where a lot of black kids grow up and they become crack dealers or some kind of drug dealer and again, that's a way to a better life become basketball players, to become whatever. And you know they use the skill that they have or the opportunities they have to just try to have a better life. I mean, who wants to work at a McDonald's for $15 an hour when you can make $1,000 a week selling cocaine, or just you know people are going to buy it anyway, so I'm just providing a service, right.
Speaker 1:And see, and it's like like say, I don't want to perpetuate the OK and of selling drugs, but it's just simply a person is going to do what's in front of them, right? Yeah, you know, if your mother, your mother, your mother and your younger brother and sister upstairs, you are the 15, 14 year old, you're the man in the house, so you're going to go and do what you do to get what y'all need to get. And then, of course, I don't know, condone it, by no means, but you know, just so, you, you think about that little, that young, that young black male, hispanic male, even that poor white man. Just think about him, yeah, and just think about if he had exposure to, to use that interpersonal gift, so to speak, right in another realm. Right, how much more in, if a person gave him an opportunity to exhibit his interpersonal abilities in another realm, another, just another area of life, how you'll see how productive that person can be if he's given the opportunity of, if he's given the exposure. And that's where you know we again I got to, I told you, like, spending years in Lakeland, florida, we lived in a cul-de-sac, we live it.
Speaker 1:It was just a melting pot of people, like even in the projects, that was poor white people, poor Hispanic people, we're all poor together. And so it's like when you, I didn't there's racism, so I moved to medicine and that's what I was like, what's wrong? And then it's like that it dawns on you that there's the differences. But when we can celebrate the difference, we can celebrate the background, get a better understanding of the background, and then, of course, it's like lifting people up, like, hey, I can't help but notice.
Speaker 1:No, you select, say the gentleman that working that quick trip. Now he's coming aboard the company you work at, just like you, he wants a better life for him, and he is, and and he's going. He's going about it the way he knows. Yes, his the road he took, the road less traveled or the road that he didn't have no choice but to be on. But it got him to where he is. And, just like you know some people there, they grow up in decent communities. They grow up. That's how they, that's, it is what you are, who you are, you.
Speaker 1:But we get, we got to get to a space where we have to move past this spirit of Division that's within the country. We have to get past. As people know, we had this conversation before, raoul, where it's like I wish I try to explain the poor white people that they're in the same boat as Black people know you're being used because, like no certain political, they're not gonna come and Stand in front of it and protest something and they're not gonna do that. They're gonna send you to do it. They're gonna fill your head with these different things and people are voting against their own best interests because of the hate that has been spewed within them, like we're talking about the, the, no, uh, the People in Illinois where the young six year old was stabbed 26 times by his landlord because he and the wife says he had been listening to a Different type of media and then so, of course, he started to fear and then again, those are the things that are happening, and so I'm gonna stop this little jihadist from being a jihadist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's exactly that little boy didn't get a chance he probably could have been.
Speaker 1:That little young man could have been, but that's just the same as those who are living now. That little young black kid, that little young Hispanic kid, that poor white kid, you know telling what he could be if he, given the opportunity and the exposure, express himself and be different, you know. And of course, and again, with these things continuously perpetuated in within the institutions, yeah, like we use hot, we use high school, we use high school as an example and I'll Be done with my rent, so to speak.
Speaker 1:But you know you ramp, baby, you ramp, go ramp like it, like a lot of Parents aren't even made aware. Well, a lot of minority parents Aren't made aware that they could put their child on a track to where the kid can graduate high school with an Associate's degree. They don't. They don't know that, they're not made aware of that. What, and it's like that's that should be the some of the first things out of a, the first day of that should be first thing out of the admissions mouth. Hey, do you want to put your kid on this track? But yet a lot of other kids are put on this track, thus Minimizing how much they pay for college, thus putting them in an economic, giving them an economic advantage, and those things go on and on Right, and so that's just where we are.
Speaker 1:But it's like, if we can come together to celebrate the differences and People are brave enough to go against the grain and call things out the way they are. And and yes, because, like the Bible says, hey, you know, there's gonna be division between mother-in-law, father-in-law, well, daughter, and mother-in-law, father and son-in-law is gonna be all these differences because of this belief in this heck mother and son Deception. Yep, it's gonna be all these deceptions, and but we were. And I have to just say this we're watching the Bible play out. We're watching because God's word is true, god's word is living and he has given us a choice. To All the stories of the kings in the Bible's first, second Kings, first, second chronicles, you had good Kings, bad Kings and of course no people read them as good stories. But you gotta understand that, the context of it and understand that, hey, the Lord showed us that life For us not to do it, and that's what we are. And oh, he showed.
Speaker 2:He showed us David. You know David, who is a man after God's own heart, you know, and you look at David and you know what. What does he do? He sees, he sees a beautiful woman bathing on her rooftop and Doesn't turn away. You know that. You know I'm married. I should not be looking at this gorgeous woman, but he does, you know.
Speaker 2:And then he, he lost so hard for her that he has her brought to him, knowing she's married, knowing that you know her husband, finding that her husband is off fighting a war for him as the king. So once he has her, lays with her, which she protests. But what's she gonna do? It's the king and has a child or conceives a child with him. And he realizes the jig is up because the guy's been in the war, he can't possibly be the father, so we got to get rid of him. So he conspires with one of his generals to put the guy at the front of the line Fighting and when things are getting really bad, just everybody else pull back and leave him at the front of the line. So he murders the man. Yeah, right, and and. But before he does that, even he, he does this really Awful thing to try to bring the husband home and have her have him sleep with her, so at least he might be able to say well, no, I don't know who it was, it obviously was your, your child, your, your wife.
Speaker 2:Had the guy comes back and has so much honor, so much dignity that he will not sleep in bed with his own wife Because he knows that his, his comrades, the guys he's fighting alongside, are out there sleeping on the you know the grass, the whatever, and fighting. He can't possibly indulge, he can't give himself to do so. Here's the quality of the man that that he he is, you know, murdering Okay. And yet he is a man after God's own heart. Because he realizes after all of that, and Nathan comes in and tells him the whole story of the lamb. And you know, the one man just has the one lamb. That is a beautiful lamb that he takes care of all his life. And another man who has all kinds of lambs and sheep and what has everything he possibly want? He wants that guy's lamb. So he takes the lamb from him and David's just furious about that story. And that guy, you need to get that guy and have him killed.
Speaker 2:And Nathan says you, you are that man and at that point he's like, okay, and why? White people out there listening? White people out there, hello, we're all here. Why are you not realizing that you are that man when George Floyd or anybody else gets their neck caught between the sidewalk and an officer of the law's knee for over nine minutes? You are the man. You are that man when you step back and say, well, I'd like to see what happens with white kids and black officers and I'd like to see.
Speaker 2:I mean, that sort of stuff happens all the time and we rationalize it, we turn it into a, instead of going, no, that can't happen, I don't care if it's black on white, I don't care if it's black on black, I don't care. The guy in Memphis who gets beat up and killed by four black officers, oh yeah, see, they do it to themselves too. That just can't happen. Period, it can't happen. It's got to stop happening. So at what point do we say all of us, black, white, hispanic, whatever at what point do we say we're done, stop, we're done. You're going to hate on people, go live in hateville, you know, but you're not staying with us anymore. Or go. You can go be in, you know, the, the army, and go fight somewhere and put your life, but you're not going to live with us anymore because we don't like. Hate is not allowed here anymore. When do we do that? When do we wake up and say hate has never, ever, ever done anything good for people, ever?
Speaker 1:And and this is where and I love that, raoul, when you say that because it's like either you're hating people or you're loving or you're hating. Anything absolute of love is hate. It's just that simple. And and and, of course, like when the Lord says hey, you're going to be hot or cold, no, if you're lukewarm, I'm going to spit you out my mouth. And it's like we, and it's like if we're not loving people, we're hating people. It's just that simple and that's how I that, just simply me. And so it's like I choose to love, because love is a choice. Love has to be demonstrated. Love is work. You have. It works hard to love someone that you know it means you harm.
Speaker 1:But the thing is I choose to say, okay, lord, I'm going to, I pick up my Bible, my use my phone right now. But it's like, lord, I believe every single word in your, I believe every single word in this Bible, and you tell me that I have to love people, no matter what. You tell me to, hey, if a person does slap me on the cheek, I got to turn the other. If he wants to take away my coat, I get my tunic too. I have to. It's like I choose. I love as a choice. And now this is the thing, and this is where, like when I'm, when I'm preaching and teaching, I tell people, hey, it's like we obey God's word. And then I go like it's when, like we're talking about how do I do it? It's like I'm going to obey God's word when he says I have to love people, and then it's like, okay, I'm going to love this person and it's going to be up to you and your Holy Ghost to change how I feel about this, because I see what is in front of me. So you're going to have to give me the power and the strength to deal with this. I'm going to obey your word, but you're going to have to empower me to do it. And when we get to that point, that's when we're actually really starting to let the life of Christ manifest.
Speaker 1:Because, again, the biggest divisions are happening in churches. It's happening in the churches. You know, of course, churches are separating themselves from people who are putting their denominational values over the actual word of God itself. You know, people are scared to talk about certain topics in church because it's going to offend the people that give the most and the word of God is being nullified. And that's where myself, I just say, okay, enough is enough with this. And of course you know I stand up and preach the truth about things, and of course, regardless of the consequence to me, because when we're preaching the truth, of course first thing he's going to have you do is look at yourself, right, yeah? And so it's like and I welcome the correction, the examination, but also I thank God that he's, he has strengthened me to do what it is to me to be done the prophet told me once he was like you're perfectly built for the hill You're going to go through. And of course I'm like, okay, whatever that means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for that word of encouragement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You're perfectly built for the hill you're going to go through. I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside now, so yeah, but just, and I think when I look back on that it's like yes, I can stand in the face of a racist person and still smile, or I don't have to go back and forth with this sarcastic banner. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't have to, I don't have to, I don't have to, right, I don't have to. No, go into that behavior because, again, that's the trick of the enemy is to get you to act out of character, and, and a lot of times we fall for it, and that's why we're teaching minorities, poor white people, man, just learn to celebrate the difference and understand, take time to understand the difference.
Speaker 2:The differences are I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. Just when we get, when we? No, you're making a good point. Just when we really get that point of taking the time to understand a person's differences. Right, You're talking about King David, and that's a great story because, remember, it would base things on images, right, when Samuel went to go anoint the next King, right away he saw his brothers. All you're surely tall, you're looking, looking this and that and the other, and then, of course, he's like are you going to go and anoint the son of Jesse? And, of course, the one that is actually supposed to be the one out in the herd Right.
Speaker 2:He's a short one with a ruddy face and you know it looks like you know hell warmed over, kind of thing right.
Speaker 1:And so like, and that's the same approach that we sometimes take today when we look at that short, ruddy person not knowing that there's a King under there. If we give them the exposure and give them some attention and show them some direction, there's a young King or Queen underneath there.
Speaker 2:Who knows, who knows what might happen, right, absolutely, who knows Right. Well, you know, here we are again. We solved all the world's problems. I guess we can take off till next week and we're done.
Speaker 2:We can wipe our hands. Yeah, we're done. Thanks so much for listening to us. You know, and you know you don't have to just go to sleep tonight and rest easy, because when you wake up tomorrow morning it's all going to be fine. So it's all going to be healed, right. Exactly, boy, wouldn't that be prayed, god, if that could happen. But hey, man, you know, like obviously having a couple of weeks off made it, you know, all the more apparent that we need to talk more often, right? So I'm going to hope and pray that your, your pain is at least, you know, at least subsides enough that we can talk again soon. Yeah, I hope so too. It's always joy, it's always eye opening, it's always it gets me fired up too. I don't know if you've noticed that I get a little fired up, that's, do you?
Speaker 1:So Well, yeah, it is like, yeah, just again, all I can do is stay prayerful, Just stay prayerful. You know, of course, when it was like taking care of the household, taking care of the ministry and also trying to bring light to what we're talking about. So it was. You know, I, sometimes you have to prioritize those things and put your energy where it needs to be put at that particular moment. But I'm glad to be back in where we are right now. So we're going to. We'll keep the same rolling.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you folks for joining us. You've been listening to frame of reference coming together. I'm Raul LaBresh and you're not, and you are sir Antoine Holman, senior, and it's been the Antoine and Raul show, I guess, ultimately, and we hope you've enjoyed, we hope you've been inspired, we hope you have learned and hope you are motivated to think more about what we've been talking about, because I I do try I know you try, brother to talk about things that matter and things that we need to think about, right.
Speaker 2:So, take care, folks talk to you next time and you be well out there. Okaaay guess, ship ready, french sailing, with one word learned