Picture this - what would it be like sharing meals with strangers during the holiday season, exploring the essence of empathy and unity in our divided world. That's what I'm doing with Antowan Hallmon, Sr, the Senior Pastor of Faith Works Ministries. We are coming together, understanding each other's struggles regardless of our diverse urban and non-urban backgrounds, and learning from each other's experiences.
We're not afraid to tackle the difficult conversations about racial bias, the painful stereotypes and prejudices that black individuals face every day. How do these biases manifest in subtle ways, like the political weaponization of black-on-black crime? We reflect on the societal pressures that force black people to change in order to fit into a white-dominated society. We dive into hard-hitting discussions about race and its influence on our lives, the role of poverty and decision making, and the importance of exposure and opportunities in combating systemic racism.
We reflect on recent incidents of racial discrimination and how love can be a mighty tool against hate. Can you imagine the transformative power of love in our society? Join us as we draw from our personal experiences, explore these critical topics, and help shed light on ways in which we can foster understanding and acceptance, promote love over hate, and make a difference in our society. Listen in, get inspired, and let's start prioritizing energy towards the essential topics together during 2024.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Picture this - what would it be like sharing meals with strangers during the holiday season, exploring the essence of empathy and unity in our divided world. That's what I'm doing with Antowan Hallmon, Sr, the Senior Pastor of Faith Works Ministries. We are coming together, understanding each other's struggles regardless of our diverse urban and non-urban backgrounds, and learning from each other's experiences.
We're not afraid to tackle the difficult conversations about racial bias, the painful stereotypes and prejudices that black individuals face every day. How do these biases manifest in subtle ways, like the political weaponization of black-on-black crime? We reflect on the societal pressures that force black people to change in order to fit into a white-dominated society. We dive into hard-hitting discussions about race and its influence on our lives, the role of poverty and decision making, and the importance of exposure and opportunities in combating systemic racism.
We reflect on recent incidents of racial discrimination and how love can be a mighty tool against hate. Can you imagine the transformative power of love in our society? Join us as we draw from our personal experiences, explore these critical topics, and help shed light on ways in which we can foster understanding and acceptance, promote love over hate, and make a difference in our society. Listen in, get inspired, and let's start prioritizing energy towards the essential topics together during 2024.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Well, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Folks, we've had a vacation here from Frame of Reference coming together. First, we are back back back. For those of you that don't know, you have just turned into Frame of Reference coming together, and the brother sitting across from me is Antoine Hollman, senior. Right, don't be messing with junior, you are a senior, antoine Hollman. So and my my name's Raul Abreche, and we are here to talk about, talk about things that need to be talked about. So this is the show where you can hear from a regular old white guy and a regular old black guy talking about what is this thing that keeps us from just being regular old guys together? So I don't get it. How you doing, man.
Speaker 1:I'm doing great, you know, just walking the walk, you know, and that's pretty much it Just give God glory, that's he's up and keeping me and my wife and just keeping the ministry. We're getting ready for our holiday meals coming up, so just ready to spread some love on folks and hopefully some souls are saved and just really just show the love of Christ. But yeah, just, it's good to see you again, man, I miss you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know you're talking about Faith Works Ministries, right, the work you're doing in Baraboo, wisconsin. So which is can?
Speaker 1:you believe the holidays are coming already.
Speaker 2:Man. Thanksgiving, Christmas will be here just around the corner.
Speaker 1:It's just crazy. In the last quarter of the year, yeah. In the last quarter.
Speaker 2:So, and at the time of the year where you know everything may be going to heck in a handbasket around us, we still have. We have a lot to celebrate, which is a good thing. Maybe we can all come together and celebrate together. That would be a good thing.
Speaker 1:So that's what those meals are for.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, sit around to it. It was a lot harder to otherize someone that you're sitting across from the table gnawing on a turkey leg with you know, or scooping on some mashed potatoes, it's. It's a lot harder to say anything nasty about someone that you've seen. Oh, they actually do use knives and forks and so on. I mean, I barely do. When I do Thanksgiving, I want to shovel with my hands just about. I'm so hungry and waiting for it.
Speaker 1:So, and that's what the meals are about. You know, it's like a unity course. We're probably, you know, we're moving to meet the needs of people but also, through the volunteerism, people stepping outside of their comfort zones, coming to, say, not necessarily off their high horse, but coming into the valley to see how some people are actually living, and just a even sharing a meal with someone, being able to just hear their story, their plight, their how they got to where they are. Yeah, and you know. And of course you know.
Speaker 1:And of course, when you get people together like that, you know a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings are eliminated, because when you hear firsthand, hey, you know, some people may become underemployed or homeless or whatever is sometimes, yeah, they're bad decisions, but no, sometimes there's a injury, there's a life event that puts a person in a space. And then, of course, if you can just literally just sit and listen to a person, regardless of race, and just hear where they're coming from you, you, you get a fresh perspective and but also just a is humbling and also just give you an idea of, wow, I'm, me and my family may not be just two steps away from that as well. Yeah, so, just you know when you can learn a lot from another person's life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. Well, you know, and that's a kind of that's our topic for today, isn't it? You know to, I I've just wanted for a long time to kind of you know, we've got big topics of, you know, crime and and you know what, what makes people go do things like they did down Jacksonville and and that that stuff. And I wonder I'm wondering if it isn't just because, or partly because, we forget that everybody's in the same battle. You know, everybody is trying to just get through life and and it's hard. And I'm trying to see to think that I think you know, people don't understand how tough my life is. You know, they just don't get it.
Speaker 2:And I thought, well, you know, let's just try to talk about a day in the life you know, a day in the life of me, a day in the life of you, and you know, a day in the life of people that we'd aren't. You know, I don't live on the South Side of Chicago and you don't anymore, right, you? You, you lived in the South Side of Chicago, right, for a while, okay, and, and Boston and LA, right. So you've been in a couple of different Madison, okay, a lot of different urban and not so urban environments.
Speaker 2:Right, I've lived, you know, born and raised in Milwaukee, so not too far from you down there, in Chicago and Waukesha, wisconsin, and Northridge, california, and Madison, wisconsin, middleton, Wisconsin, and now in my wonderful Prairie, dew Sack. So Wisconsin, and so you know, I'd like to think that, you know, I've not been in a big old mansion, or you know, I ever had, you know, silver spoons in my mouth, so always been stainless steel. But so I'd like to think I have life that's fairly normal. I don't know, you know, working the working class, poor, I guess, what it seems like. But, and you know you and your wife are struggling, right, I mean, it's just a day in, day out. There's no guarantees. There's no silver spoon in your mouth, I don't see one. So so what's it like? What's a day like in your, your life or what? What has it been like? What does an average day look like in your life?
Speaker 1:In my life. You know now that my life has been given completely to Christ. It's all about saving the souls and using my testimony to save others, whether it's my upbringing or my struggles in life. You share your revelation with people, in your testimony with people and with the hopes of them avoiding the same mistakes that you have made. And, of course, we're living in a day and a time where you know people are believing a lie and accepting it as truth. Of course, everybody's truth these days is based on feel, and so it's like when you're trying to bridge gaps or give a understanding to things, most people are tuned out now because it's like it's my way or no way. And so when we're talking about discipleship, you know, and trying to evangelize and spread the gospel, you know people have different views of what it's like to be a man or woman of God because of what they've seen on TV, what they're hearing and seeing in the media and even in their communities. So it's becoming a struggle just to get people. I wouldn't say a struggle, but it's.
Speaker 1:A lot of people have not represented Christ in his actual culture, manifested his culture and exhibited his nature, and so you have to. There's a more that much more explanation need be given, but that's a part of discipleship, but that's a kind of part of the day in the life. But you know, of course, a walk in this planet as a black male, you know, as a black male, it has been what it's been. If it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, it'd be a very frustrating journey. You know, of course, just all these things that, like you know, you see right before our very eyes, of rights are being taken away, and again it's just like people throw out these images, they throw out their point of views and and it's just people run with them versus actually taking the time to get to know people.
Speaker 1:And something that baffles me is just like how can you know? It's like that you know you battle imported racism where it's like a person will never have ever interacted with a person of another race, but yet they hate. And it's like how can you know you saw on TV, you heard on the radio, you, whatever, but you haven't experienced the person and you know. And so that's a kind of day in my life, you know, when you just you're trying to you walk upright to try to dispel any stereotypes or or misconceptions, and but at the same time it's like being yourself. You know, it's like culturally being yourself. You know I'm a t shirt, blue jeans, plaid shirt kind of guy. You know some people will say, hey, you dress like a white person, then, of course. And then it's like, but it's like this is just.
Speaker 2:This is what I like.
Speaker 1:And this is what fits me and what I'm comfortable in. And but then also, you know people get upset when you start. You know, speaking truths to matters, you know, but prior to us coming on, we were having a conversation. You know how people get upset with you because you're not, you're not their idea of you and so in the course, I'm never going to be that you know. And so when I is we talked about this before when you point out an issue, you become the problem.
Speaker 1:So I'm a problem to a lot of people because I point out the issue. You know it's like hey, you know, when it comes to things of race and and just a discrimination, injustice, you know, and just blatant aspects of it. And just pointing out to people that, hey, you know. And when you're trying to explain to people that, hey, you're in the same boat as I am and they're not understanding or getting it, it could be frustrating. Like I said, if it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, it'd be a very frustrating walk. But I just give God glory that he has changed me from the inside out and all I could do is try to exhibit the love of Christ, and it is. It could be frustrating if I didn't have my relationship.
Speaker 2:So, and I'm curious about that, I mean, there's obviously been a transformational experience in your life, right, but help me, I don't think we've talked you've kind of talked about your, the things that you grew up with. You know your mom being an exotic dancer, you know, and spending a lot of time in bars as a young kid, you know, and and her, you and her thing. She wanted to keep an eye on you, so she brought you with her to you know an environment that a lot of parents oh my God, I can't believe you brought him to you know, and it's like, well, you know she was actually being a good mom by keeping an eye on you and not just letting you, you know, run on the streets and get into whatever and how. How different were you back then? Like, if you had stayed on that trajectory, what do you think your life would be like today?
Speaker 1:Uh, probably wouldn't be here. Um, you know, again, growing up in the nightlife, uh, like I said, my grand pimp, my father's parents, owned a tavern. So whenever I was with my dad, I was uh sitting on a bar stool behind the bar watching all the rackets that go on. And just same as with my mother when she was working, I was on a bar stool behind the bar watching all the rackets. And again, before I was uh 13, 14 years old, I could probably mix every drink under the sun. I knew every game that was uh to be played, and and then, of course, you just grow up in it. And then, lo and behold, what do I do with my life? I become a nightclub restaurant manager, and and.
Speaker 1:But it kind of comes down to cause. All of us want the same thing. We want to have a good life right. We want to provide for our families, we want to just raise our children right way. However, a lot of our journeys are different. Some people uh grew up on a straight and narrow, whether it's in a rural situation. Some people grew up in a tough situation, whether it's in a it is in a city. But we all want the same thing.
Speaker 1:But, however, what's happening today is, you know, like when you share your testimony or you share your journey, the judgment comes. You know, and it's like, uh, you know people, you know that's where you know, I, I. It could be frustrating because, again, people are judging and not loving. You know, cause, when we start judging people, we take Jesus off the throne and put ourselves up there. And then, you know, you were talking to me about a gentleman that uh wore a chain in quick trip but he was uh, kind of got a little, uh, indirect skull, uh a male, another, uh, a white male, because of the chain Right, and it's like, uh, that's uh again, it's like we have to get to a space where we can understand cultural differences.
Speaker 1:But we all want the same thing. And just, yes, I'm going to talk different, act different, be different because of where I came from Doesn't mean I want this, I don't want the same thing as you. And when, if, if, you can just get, if people can just get that, that we all want the same thing. And yes, uh, you there's and bless uh. You know, of course, we have to account for the injustices and, uh, economic, you know, disproportionate, and all those different kinds. We have to account for those things. Right, they bring us to a point and it brings you to a attitude, it brings you to a behavior. You know, and, and it's just like, uh, I praise God that, uh, he touched me and I was able to outgrow it, and yeah, and so all you can do is just try to bring people to that light, uh, via Christ.
Speaker 2:See, and that's the thing that's amazing to me honestly about, about you and this, this young man, well, middle-aged man that is talking with the other day, who you know is now coming to work for a company that I worked for and his attitude is so, um, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to take advantage of any opportunity that comes my way. You know I he firmly believing that, you know, there's a purpose for his life, that he was given, uh, you know, an opportunity to do something, is no idea what it is, but he's, he's, uh, you know, going after that that thing and tell you know, and if it gets revealed to, when it gets revealed to him. But then he's telling me there's just little you know anecdotes of the chain that he, you know he's wearing, he just likes the chain, you know, and somebody coming in and you know who'd been, is kind of a regular and saying what's with the chain? You know, not a curious chain, you know, like I mean, I said I probably would be like, hey, that's a really cool chain. What is that? Is that from somebody? Did it? Was that a gift from somebody? Yeah, but we were somewhere, you know, kind of deal, um, and because I'm curious about stuff.
Speaker 2:But this was a judgment. You know, this was an obvious judgment of you know, are you one of those black men? Cause I'm going to be more careful, I'm going to be watching you now. Um, or you know, or what. And he decided, you know, he was like, oh no, it's just. Uh, you know, I forget how he said, he explained it, but after the guy walked out, he tucked the chain under his t-shirt so that he wouldn't offend anyone else.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think about that. What is it like to have a life where you have to be careful of wearing a chain or careful of having a do rag on? We talked about do rags for a while too, about how, you know, these people would wear them when they're sleeping just to keep their hair from getting all messed up, and then started to realize, oh, do rag kind of looks cool, I think I'll wear that out. And all of a sudden, the do ragger. You know, if you got a do rag on, you're like a gangbanger. I mean, that's just, that's a given right and you know, that's just so.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry folks, I think that's pathetic, that we are that willing to be put off and allow ourselves to be put off by something that meaningless and that? Well, you know, and it is meaningful if you would just ask questions about what is the meaning. And we've talked about you know what is with the hats and the different. You know, I have it that way, I have it this way, you know just like what is it. And so that makes me wonder, because in my life I mean, I can wear, you know, my Star Trek sweater that I have on today, you know, with Scotty saying I cannot change the laws of physics, you know, and people will go, yeah, he's a Trekkie, those guys are kind of weird, but no one is going to confront me about.
Speaker 2:Am I something different than I am, besides a nerd? You know big whoop-de-doo, you know I am a nerd, I get it, but in there's a negative place that we go to with the things that we see on black people that helps to reinforce our bias that black people deserve to be beat up by cops. I mean, I hate to say I think there is a root of that that a certain spectrum of people just go well, you know, george Floyd must have been doing something that he deserved, that Nobody, nobody, nobody deserves to have somebody on their neck for, you know, over eight minutes or nine minutes, I forget now what the exact. They've got the exact time because people were filming it, for goodness sakes, and yet, and yet we do. And I don't get how you don't. I don't get how black people in general are not so angry all the time that we're gunning up, you know and we're ready.
Speaker 1:The thing is, the thing is, you know, like I said, if it wasn't for my relationship with Christ, yes, I would be one of those angry men walking around because you're seeing things right before your very eyes, people who I have believed lies and accepted them as truths. You know, you get part of the country thinking that, oh, the country is being taken from them, the culture is being taken from them, the women are being taken from them, all these different kind of things, and it's like that's not the case. We all just want to live a good life and when we can really get that underlying current, just that common later, we all want to live a good life and however, you know, when it comes to living a good life, people have their idea of what a good life looks like and how another person is supposed to live. You know, of course, it's like you know we were talking like how, you know how white people most well, let's say white men, they like black men that act somewhat like black men. They like them more.
Speaker 2:I'm more comfortable with you if you do that, so please do that Exactly.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, it's like why should I have to change myself to make you happy? Why can't you just accept me for who I am and understand that? Hey, yes, just because I. And the thing is, you know, from a cultural standpoint, just because a person has braids, has their words, a certain kind of outfit, doesn't make them a criminal, doesn't make them a violent or non violent.
Speaker 1:But it goes back to how black on black crime has been around the election cycle. Every time crime is the issue, right, and so we talk about how black on black crime is kind of like exploited in a sense. Now, when you look at the grand scheme of things, you know 60% of black crimes are committed by another black person. Just like you know, when it comes to a white crime, 57% of crimes committed against white people are against other white people. So the numbers are not that far off. But one thing is perpetuated or exacerbated more so than the other for the sake of whether it's a political game or just to kind of continuously perpetuate a certain stereotype, to keep people in fear and then just to keep this stigma going of when you see them run, when you see them, that's their goals in neighborhood and it's just like in some, some people, some white people, don't fall into the trap, but some people do. And Then in the sad part is now you have another faction of it where this thing is happening in the church. You got Christian nationalism, you got thing called Christian masculinity. You know, for the life of me is it's like it bothers me so much when I earn White evangelicals.
Speaker 1:No, we supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ. You know, in in Christ, there's no color, there's no race, just like you know. Remember when the Pharisees came in approach Jesus. Well, if the woman married seven brothers, who is she married to? In the end? It's like, no, she's not married in them, because we're all gonna be in the form of angels, so it doesn't matter. And so you got to understand if we're, if we are Made in the image of God, and God is a spirit, we too are spirits housed in a carnal body. Just so, having mine is darker than yours right now, but in the end of things we are all the same.
Speaker 1:And yes, and again, there has been different roads traveled to get to a certain space, and when we can just really celebrate the road Travel to get to a certain space. If, if you will understand that you'll learn a lot from it. You know, cuz, like a remember we were talking out like no, when it came to like, say, things of an understanding, credit and things like that. You know, like, most white kids learn that at a fairly young age and they're late teens, early 20s. Right, I didn't get it or it just really didn't hit me until like my mid, late 30s. You know, and it's like those types of things and it's like, but we talk about these frustrations and things like that.
Speaker 1:It's like people you know Don't understand that they come from a place. You know they come from a place. You know, like, when you're talking about, you know, the disproportionate treatment of Black people, like, whether it's in the criminal justice system, in the health care system, in the education system, all these different things, there is a noticeable difference in treatment. You know and and so, yes, the Behavior or the action or the attitude, it comes from a place. But, however, when I'm talking to young black men, it's like, yes, those things have happened, but now it's like that has happened. What are you gonna do to change it? Now? Are you gonna be a positive voice? Are you gonna be a continuous perpetuation of the stereotype. And so that's where the teaching and the loving of God has to come into place to really show a person hey, just because you were born in this situation don't mean you had to end up there. So it's all about changing the trajectory of a person's life.
Speaker 1:But again, it's like in some cases, people, right away You're just eliminated from a lot of different things because of how you look and it's like a Again, if you saw me on my t-shirt blue Jane day you know wouldn't think that I was a 50 year old pastor. You know I could walk into a convenience store and and in right away. You know there's this. You can just feel the tension, know, from behind the counter to the people in the corners, and you just feel it and it's like okay. And it goes back to what we were talking about in a previous recording how you know like we as black people yes, we carry a 400 year plus weight on us. You know like when a one black person mess up, it's perpetuated to all of them. But if a white guy mess up, oh, that's just him and that family. It was a wrong upbringing but, and so it's like we have to.
Speaker 1:It's almost like why do I have to carry the weight of the whole race Right versus you know, another person don't right, and so, but even in that instance, we are in a space where we are. So I take the charge of saying, okay, lord, I'm gonna exhibit your culture and beneficial nature in this earth. Yes, and then the thing is, you know, it's like, yes, there's frustration. You know, my wife and I we experienced racism almost on a daily basis, but yet, but God, but God, because I mean It'd be very easy to act out in the course. But that's one of the very tricks of the enemy. You know, he's gonna Pull, push a button, she's gonna eat the things, that body, and he'll put that thing in front of you into Until you lose your cool.
Speaker 1:And then that's when the person can say, see, I told you that wasn't a man of God, I told you that, told you they are who, they are right, and so that's a constant weight. You have to monitor your. But it's like I'm, when I know, cross the the mid 40s, I just I kind of stop caring. So I'll just tell you, the truth is like I don't like this, I don't like that, or, like I said, when you point out an issue in a community, you become the problem in the community. Old people start to you know he did. They're good guys, you know. But but you know he said that thing I didn't like.
Speaker 1:You know, of course it's like when we're talking about allies, you know. It's like, hey, when you talk about being an ally in this, in this, and when we're talking about civil rights and things like that, I mean, are you really gonna walk that walk? Because again, it's like, at the end of the day, when things get heated, a person can just Curl back into their whiteness and I pointed that out on a couple occasions. It's like we, we were talking about a day in the life and it's like If it would a good, going back to the original thing, if it wasn't for my relationship with God, yes, I'd be very frustrated.
Speaker 1:And, however, trying now to teach other young black men or even Native American Hispanic, whoever the Lord puts in front of me, that hey, just because you were born into a situation, don't mean that that you have to end up there, but also understand this if you're gonna be a believer in Christ, you're gonna have to exhibit this culture manifest as nature, and that's regardless of where you stand, down the face of an enemy, or If you're looking in the face of hate. You know, the Bible tells us I only have to do two things love God and love people, and, and after that, lord. Because, see, this is the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's easy about being well, and I keep thinking it's kind of easy At least easier I think to pretend You're a Christian as a white person, because it's assumed from the beginning that it's a possibility, you know, or whatever. But if you're a person of color, you know. If you're Latin X, probably Catholic, you know. If you're you're black, you know probably a gospel, you know either a Bible Thumper or gonna assume that you're Pentecostal yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or you know, or a gangbanger. I mean, you're gonna there's pretty limited possibilities of what you might be. You know, if you're, you know, different color, skinny, wear hair in your particular way probably a Muslim, and you know that that makes it okay for me to kill your six-year-old child. You know it's, it's. You know we, we put up those, those stereotypes, as biases. I mean, you know you're talking about you're. You're a kid and you're growing up in a bar. I can't imagine being in a bar watching my mom do what exotic dancers do and Trying to. You know, reconcile that, that cognitive dissonance you know of you know, well, it's my mommy and my mom loves me and you know I, I guess that's what mommy does.
Speaker 2:I grew up when I was six years old. I had lemonade stands in front of my house that my mom made the lemonade for. You know, when I was six years old, I had my pedaled fire truck that I was putting up on pieces of wood so I could get under it and pretend that I was repairing my fire truck. You know, I lived in a neighborhood where I I swear to God, I think back to Biden and I was like it was like freaking, leave it to beaver, you know, south side of Milwaukee. But across the street there was a guy that was a captain of a vice squad in the second district of Milwaukee's police department. Next door there was a woman who taught piano and my, my brother, took piano lessons from her until he got to the point where he needed to go the next level right, and to this day it's still, you know, a wonderful pianist.
Speaker 2:Those opportunities that life Would have been. So I would think. I mean I don't want to put the thoughts or words in your mouth, but I would think that's so different, right from that, the get-go, that it's a God thing that we're together and that we're able to talk and we're able to say, yeah, your journey is different than mine, but personally I'm in awe that your journey has put you to the point you're in and from me it's kind of like, well, yeah, you should be, you should be thinking, you know you're all that because you had every opportunity in the world right.
Speaker 1:And what you just said there, raul. I just hope that the people can grasp that, that how kids are growing up now, neighborhoods, now, you know, people are. Again, we all want the same thing and of course, however, it's going to come down to exposure and of course that's one of the things that faith first ministries we desire to do is expose people to new and different things, expose people to Christ, you know, show them that there's a. You know, when they change their mindset, their life will change. You know what we think, we speak, what we speak, we see and what we see we do, you know, and it's like when we can actually change the mindset again from a mindset of hate and retaliation or revenge and all this other kind of things, because, again, these things are being perpetuated, their systemic and systematic racism, they continuously exist to this day in almost every, in, let's just say, every institution pertaining to life. You know, again, healthcare, education, justice, you know even economic and social disadvantages, all those things. We see that a tax, now people want to, you know, have a choice as to where they spend their tax dollars to. They want their tax dollars to go to a specific school now, and so what does that do it just like continuously impoverishes neighborhoods, closes schools and then so what has to happen if a black kid wants an education? That mean they don't have to get on a train, or like, if you're in the city you got to get on a train and you got to get up when the bus isn't running to get to this school by seven if you want to education. But and again, it's like people have to look at the. You know you can see the surface things, you can see violence, you can see crime. But we got to go beneath the surface and really examine the problems and really examine the things that cause these things. And again, me growing up, the way I grew up hey, that's just what it was.
Speaker 1:South Side of Chicago 70s. My mother was a pretty young lady from the South. She had a ninth grade education, but I praise God that she was strong, she was resilient, you know, she in the end of her life she had cleaned up, she was trying to start a soul food restaurant. She was doing a lot of good things. She was working at UW as a CNA and as a place at the time and with the old Hilldale Mall in Madison there was a place called Seventh Avenue a lighting place. She was doing a lot of things, trying to know, of course, because it was at that point when it was about my son, my oldest son, who deceased she was wanting to show him a good life and so she worked her tail off the living this, that Shaboygan area of Madison, and so in that kind of change that me seeing the very ugly part of things, seeing my mother transition from hey, okay, this, a different mindset it told me that I could do it too.
Speaker 1:And so that's where it's like now is my job to show other people that hey, you could do it too. And let's just put race aside, because you know we're talking low income white people as well. Showing you just because you grew up in a space Don't mean you're going to end up there. You know, just just because you're poor don't mean you have to emulate the other poor people in the area. And that's where it's like you know that individuality and that you know just really making a determination to hey, I want a better life. And of course, with that, better life is going to require some change and of course change hurts and change is going to have you laugh at, change, is going to have you ridicule. Change is going to bring so much misunderstanding to you Because, again, 50, old black guy don't look 50.
Speaker 1:And I thank God for that. It's like again when I walk into a store and I found out I just got on T shirt and jeans right away. Perceptions, yeah, but I praise God for the mindset that he's given me that I can overcome them. But there's people that need to be taught how to do that. But just like we're trying, you and I talking, we are trying to teach us a white men as an example, or even white women, how to not be so quick to judge.
Speaker 1:Hey, you know, say hi to the person. You know what I mean. Yeah, and I say, hey, you know, like, like a person to say hey, you could like say a white guy speaking to a black guy. You'll probably say, hey, how you doing today. The black guy just replied, hey, what's up? And. But that is the same. Greeting is the same gesture and it can come from the same heart, a good heart, but some people will take that as a well, they don't talk, right, they don't talk how I talk and right, and so that's where we, you know, and that's where, like again, we can get past a few simple, no social etiquette barriers. We can really get to some really deep conversation. Yeah, yeah, self-imposed social etiquette barriers, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think of those simple things that you can say. A while ago I was at one of our local grocery stores, you know, and I'm coming out, and I actually had been walking around and had my one dog with me, dart, who is a little fart, and Dart parks it. Everybody, you know, he just he does, he's a little little black dog with funny like huge ears, you know, and he's he's the cutest darn thing, but he can just be annoying as all get out. And we're walking along the lot, kind of along the edge of it, and this, you know, I don't know, middle-aged black guy, big guy, gets out of his like suburban or one, it's just, I mean, he's big man. And it comes walking out and you know Dart's barking at him, barking at him like he's ferocious, be really careful, you know, he's absolutely terrifying, I know. And he just looks down at Dart and says hey, fight, oh, and, and Dart keeps barking.
Speaker 2:I said Dart says hey, so we both just smiled and laughed at each other and kept and kept going and I thought, you know, it's those little interactions where you go, I'm a human being, he's a human being, we both have a sense of humor. You know what. I know what it took for me to get to my sense of humor, but for him to still have the sense of humor where he interacted, he could have easily just gone. Oh, you know that piece of crap. Yeah, you've got your dog trained to be. You know all barking and attacking black people, don't you? He could have, he could have. Yeah, well, you know there's rationalization, realization of that's a, that's a legitimate choice.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think about, like Dart, the, the Star Wars thing of you know the dark side and the light side of the force. And you know, being asked, you know is, is the dark side stronger? And I think it's Yoda that says now, you know more seductive, perhaps faster, you know whatever, more seductive reps, but not stronger. And that makes me think about, you know, like neighborhoods where a lot of black kids grow up and they become crack dealers or some kind of drug dealer and again, that's a way to a better life become basketball players, to become whatever. And you know they use the skill that they have or the opportunities they have to just try to have a better life. I mean, who wants to work at a McDonald's for $15 an hour when you can make $1,000 a week selling cocaine or just you know, people are going to buy it anyways. I'm just providing a service, right?
Speaker 1:And see, and, and, and it's like, like I say, I don't want to perpetuate the okay and of selling drugs, but it's just simply, a person is going to do what's in front of them, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, if your mother, your mother, your younger brother and sister upstairs you are the 15, 14 year old, you're the man of the house, so you're going to go and do what you do to get what y'all need to get. And then, of course, I don't know, condone it by no means. But you know, just so, you, you think about that little, that young, that young black male, hispanic male, even that poor white man. Just think about him and just think about if he had exposure to, to use that interpersonal gifts, so to speak, right in another realm, right, how much more. And if a person gave him an opportunity to exhibit his interpersonal abilities in another realm, another, just another area of life, how you'll see how productive that person can be if he's given the opportunity of, if he's given the exposure. And that's where you know we again, I think I told you, like you know, spending years in Lakeland, florida. We lived in a cul-de-sac, we lived, it was just a a, a melting pot of people, like even in the projects there was poor white people, poor Hispanic people. We were all poor together. And so it's like when you, I didn't there's racism till I moved to Madison, and that's when I was like what, what's wrong? And then it's like that it dawns on you that there's the differences. But when we can celebrate the difference, we can celebrate the background, get a better understanding of the background. And then, of course, it's like lifting people up, like, hey, I, I can't help but notice.
Speaker 1:You know, you used to like say the gentleman that's working that quick trip. Now he's coming aboard the company you work at, just like you, he wants a better life for him and his, and he's going. He's going about it the way he knows. Yes, his road. He took the road less traveled, or the road that he didn't have no choice but to be on, but it got him to where he is. And, just like you know some people they're, they grow up in decent communities. They grow up. That's how they, that's, it is what you are, who you are, you.
Speaker 1:But we get. We got to get to a space where we have to move past this spirit of division that's within the country. We have to get past this people no, we had this conversation before, raoul, where it's like I wish I try to explain the poor white people that they're in the same boat as black people. No, you're, you're being used because, like no, certain political.
Speaker 1:They're not going to come and stand in front of it and protest something and they're not going to do that. They're going to send you to do it. They're going to fill your head with these different things and people are voting against their own best interests because of the hate that has been spewed within them. Like we're talking about the, the, the, the uh People in Illinois, where the young six year old was stabbed 26 times, yeah, by his landlord Because he and the wife says he had been listening to A different type of media and then so, of course, he started to fear and then again, those are the things that are happening, and so I'm gonna stop this little jihadist from being a jihadist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's exactly that little boy didn't get a chance. He probably could have been.
Speaker 1:It ain't no telling what that little young man could have been, but that's just the same as those who are living now. That little young black here, that little young hispanic here, that poor white Kid, you know, tell him what he could be if he given the opportunity and the exposure, express himself and be different, you know. And of course, and again, with these things continuously perpetuated in within the institutions, yeah, like we use high, we use high school, we use high school as an example, and I'll Uh be done with my rant, so to speak.
Speaker 2:But you know, uh, you ramp, baby, you ramp, go ramp.
Speaker 1:So, like uh, it like A lot of parents aren't even made aware. Well, a lot of minority parents Aren't made aware that they could put their child on a track to where the kid can graduate high school with an associate's degree. They don't, they don't know that, they're not made aware of that. What, and it's like that's that should be the some of the first things out of uh, the first day, that should be first thing out of the admissions mouth. Hey, do you want to put your kid on this track? But yet a lot of other kids are put on this track, thus Minimizing how much they pay for college, thus putting them in an economic, giving them an economic advantage, and those things go on and on right. And so that's just where, uh, we are. But it's like uh, if we can come together To celebrate the differences.
Speaker 1:Uh, and people are brave enough to go against the grain and call things out the way they are. And and yes, because, like uh, the bible says hey, you know there's going to be division between mother-in-law, father-in-law well, daughter and mother-in-law, father and son-in-law is going to be all these differences because of this belief in this Heck mother and son, the deception. Yep, it's going to be all these deceptions, and but we were. And I have to just say this we're watching the bible play out. We're watching because god's word is true, god's word is living and he has given us a choice. To All the stories of the kings in the bible's first, second kings, first, second chronicles, you had good kings, bad kings and, of course, no people read them as good stories. But you got to understand that, the context of it, and understand that, hey, the lord showed us that life For us not to do it. And that's what we are. And oh, we showed.
Speaker 2:He showed us david. You know david, who is a man after god's own heart, you know. And you look at david and you know what did he do? He sees, he sees a beautiful woman bathing on her rooftop and doesn't turn away. You know that. You know I'm married. I should not be looking at this gorgeous woman, but he does, you know.
Speaker 2:And then he, he lost so hard for her that he has her brought to him, knowing she's married, knowing that you know her husband, finding that her husband is off fighting a war for him as the king. So once he has her, lays with her, which she protests. But what's she going to do? It's the king and has a child or conceives a child with him. And he realizes the jig is up because the guy's been in the war, he can't possibly be the father, so we got to get rid of him. So he conspires with one of his generals to put the guy at the front of the line Fighting and when things are getting really bad, just everybody else pull back and leave him at the front of the line. So he murders the man. Yeah, right, and and. But before he does that, even he, he does this really awful thing to try to bring the, the husband, home and have her, have him sleep with her, so at least he might be able to say well, I don't know who it was, it obviously was your, your child, your, your wife.
Speaker 2:Had the guy comes back and he has so much honor, so much dignity that he will not sleep in bed with his own wife Because he knows that his, his comrades, the guys he's fighting alongside, are out there sleeping on the, you know the grass, the whatever, and fighting. He can't possibly indulge, he can't give himself to do so. Here's the quality of the man that that he he is, you know, murdering Okay, and yet he is A man after god's own heart. Because he realizes after all of that, and Nathan comes in and tells him the whole story of the lamb. And you know, the one man just has the one lamb, that is a beautiful lamb that he takes care of all his life.
Speaker 2:And another man who has all kinds of lambs and sheep and what adds, everything you possibly want. He wants that guy's lamb. So he takes the lamb from him and David's just furious about that story. And that guy, we need to get that guy and have him killed. And and Nathan says you, you, you are that man and at that point he's like, okay, and why?
Speaker 2:why? White people out there, listening? White people out there, hello, we're all here. Why are you not realizing that you are that man? When George Floyd or anybody else Gets their their neck, you know, caught between the sidewalk and an officer of the law's knee for over nine minutes, you are the man. You are that man when you step back and say, well, I mean, I'd like to see what happens with you know white kids and black officers and I'd like to see you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, that sort of stuff happens all the time. We rationalize it, we turn it into a, instead of going no, that that can't happen. I don't care if it's black on white, I don't care if it's black on black, I don't care. The guy in Memphis who gets, you know, beat up and killed by you know four black officers, oh yeah, see, see, they do it to themselves too. That just can't happen, period, it can't happen. It's got to stop happening. So at what point do we say all of us, black, white, hispanic, whatever at what point do we say we're done, stop, we're done. You're going to hate on people. Go live in hateville, you know, but you're not staying with us anymore or go. You can go be in you know the the army and go fight somewhere and put your life, but you're not going to live with us anymore because we don't like hate is not allowed here anymore. When do we do that? When do we wake up and say hate has never, ever, ever done anything good for people Ever?
Speaker 1:Well, and this is where and I love that row, when you say that, because it's like either you're hating people or you're loving or you're hating anything Absolutely, love is hate. It's just that simple and in the course, like when the Lord says, hey, you're going to be hot or cold, no, if you look warm, I'm going to spit you out my mouth, and it's like we, and it's like if we're not loving people, we're hating people. It's just that simple. That's how I that, just simply me. And so it's like I choose to love, because love is a choice. Love has to be demonstrated. Love is work. You have. It works hard to love someone that you know it means you harm. But the thing is I choose to say, okay, lord, I'm going to, I pick up my Bible, I use my phone right now. But it's like, lord, I believe every single word in your, I believe every single word in this Bible, and you tell me that I have to love people, no matter what. You tell me to hey, if a person slaps me on the cheek, I got to turn the other. If he wants to take away my coat, I get my tunic too. I it's like I choose. I love as a choice.
Speaker 1:And now this is the thing, and this is where, like when I'm, when I'm preaching and teaching, I tell people, hey, it's like we obey God's word. And then I go like it's when, like we're talking about how do I do it? It's like I'm going to obey God's word when he says I have to love people. And then it's like, okay, I'm going to love this person and it's going to be up to you and your Holy ghost to change how I feel about this, because I see what is in front of me. So you're going to have to give me the power and the strength to deal with this. I'm going to obey your word, but you're going to have to empower me to do it. And when we get to that point, that's when we're actually really starting to let the life of Christ manifest.
Speaker 1:Because, again, the biggest divisions are happening in churches. It's happening in the churches, you know, of course, churches are separating themselves from people who are putting their denominational values over the actual word of God itself. You know, people are scared to talk about certain topics in church because it's going to offend the people that give the most and the word of God is being nullified. And that's where, myself. I just say, okay, enough is enough with this.
Speaker 1:And of course you know I stand up and preach the truth about things and of course, regardless of the consequence to me, because when we're preaching the truth, of course first thing he's going to have you do is look at yourself, right, yeah, and so it's like and I welcome the correction, the examination, and but also I thank God that he's, he has strengthened me to do what it is to me to be done. The prophet told me once he was like you're perfectly built for the hill You're going to go through. And of course I'm like, okay, that means Thanks for that word of encouragement, yeah you're perfectly built for the hill You're going to go through.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside now, so yeah, but just, and I think when I look back on that it's like yes, I can stand in the face of a racist person and still smile, or I don't have to go back and forth with this sarcastic banner. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't have to, I don't have to, I don't have to write, I don't have to. No, go into that behavior because, again, that's the trick of the enemy is to get you to act out of character and and and a lot of times is we fall for it and that's why we're teaching minorities of poor white people man, just learn to celebrate the difference and understand. Take time to understand the difference.
Speaker 2:The differences are when we know what I'm trying to go ahead.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. Just when we get, when we know you're making a good point, just when we really get that point of taking the time to understand a person's differences. Right, you're talking about King David, and that's a great story because, remember, if we base things on images, right, when Samuel went to go anoint the next King, right away he saw his brothers oh, you're surely tall, you're looking, looking this and that and the other. And then, of course, he's like are you going to go and anoint the son of the son of Jesse? And, of course, the one that is actually supposed to be the one out in the herd Right.
Speaker 2:He's a short one with a ruddy face and you know it looks like you know hell warmed over, kind of thing right.
Speaker 1:And so like in. And that's the same approach that we sometimes take today when we look at that short, ruddy person, not knowing that there's a king under there. If we give them the exposure and give them some attention and show them some direction, there's a young king or a queen underneath there.
Speaker 2:Who knows, who knows what might happen right. Who knows Right? Well, you know, here we are again. We solved all the world's problems. I guess we can take off till next week and we're done. We can wipe our hands.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for listening to us. You know, and you know, you don't have to just go to sleep tonight and rest easy, because when you wake up tomorrow morning it's all going to be fine. So it's all going to be healed, right? Exactly, boy, wouldn't that be praise God if that could happen. But hey, man, you know, like obviously, having a couple of weeks off made it, you know, all the more apparent that we need to talk more often, right? So I'm going to open. Pray that your, your pain is at least, you know, at least subsides enough that we can talk again soon. Yeah, I hope so too. It's always joy, it's always eye opening, it's always. It gets me fired up too. I don't know if you've noticed that I get a little fired up. That's due to you, you serve.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, just like. Yeah, just again. All I can do is stay prayerful, just stay prayerful. You know, of course, when it was like taking care of the household, taking care of the ministry and also trying to bring light to what we're talking about. So it was. You know I, sometimes you have to prioritize those things and and put your energy where it needs to be put at that particular moment. But I'm glad to be back in where we are right now. So we're going to. We'll keep the stain rolling.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you folks for joining us. You've been listening to frame of reference coming together. I'm Raul LaBresh and you're not, and you are sir Antoine Hallman, senior, and it's been the Antoine Raul show, I guess, ultimately, and we hope you've enjoyed, we hope you've been inspired, we hope you have learned, I hope you are motivated to think more about what we've been talking about, because I I try I know you try, brother to talk about things that matter and things that we need to think about, right.
Speaker 2:So, take care folks. Talk to you next time and you'd be well out there, okay.